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Lingering Questions in PlameGate

Karl Rove may be skating in PlameGate, but there are a lot of lingering, unanswered questions. Here's a few that come to mind.

  • Did Karl Rove lie to investigators in the fall of 2003? If so, why is he not being prosecuted for it?
  • Does Fitz no longer believe Rove and Bob Novak coordinated their stories about their July 9 conversation?
  • Is Fitzgerald absolving everyone in the White House Iraq Group of criminal culpability?
  • Who was Robert Novak's source? Who was Bob Woodward's source? Who was Walter Pincus's source?
  • Why did mainstream reporters (David Schuster of MSNBC comes to mind) say a few weeks ago they believed Rove would be charged? That seemed to be the consensus of opinion. What changed?

Update: Swopa at Needlenose has some questions of her own.

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    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:35:14 AM EST
    What's with asking all of these questions? I read something yesterday I thought was intended to shut up all of those nattering nabobs: Sometimes people just don't know when to cry "uncle." I do.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#2)
    by jimcee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:42:14 AM EST
    Or perhaps Mr Fitzgerald has decided that there will be no indictments pertaining directly to Mrs Wilson's position because no laws were broken? Your just beating this dead horse into dog food at this point.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#3)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:44:28 AM EST
    Regarding SLOphoto's comment of 12:18A.M.: One of IMHO's repeated themes, when she's not playing "the defense lied" or "there is no proof that the AV had sex before the rape", is that the lacrosse players would have been better off cooperating with the authorities. I refer her to Junior Murvin's "Police And Thieves" which was covered by The Clash.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#4)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:48:03 AM EST
    Speaking of horses, I'll believe it's over when I hear it from the horse's mouth.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#5)
    by Bob In Pacifica on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:53:44 AM EST
    It's also a hoot for anyone (that is, IMHO) to be telling the lacrosse players that they all would have been better off cooperating with the authorities in this case. The AV, who apparently was completely believed by the police and the DA, seems to provide three different answers for every question asked her. Considering how clearly unreliable AV was out of the gate, and how the police and DA repeatedly discarded anything exculpatory on their way to indicting the three men, I don't see how anything that they may have done would have altered the course of events. So I'll ask: What could the players have done differently to be better off than their current situation?

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#6)
    by scribe on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 07:13:03 AM EST
    I'll believe it when I see (a) Fitz' letter or (b) Fitz in a press conference telling us so. Gold Bars and, more to the point, his client, have spouted too much b*llsh*t and been too un-truth-ful for too long to be entitled to any benefit of credibility in my opinion. I said it first thing yesterday, and I'll say it again - if it was so, Luskin would doubtless be waving the letter. When he shows us the letter, then he's entitled to credbility. Until then, he's just trying to work the MSM into getting back in line behind the Rethug party, so as to try to salvage the fall elections, rather than tear the admin apart.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 07:16:17 AM EST
    Why did mainstream reporters (David Schuster of MSNBC comes to mind) say a few weeks ago they believed Rove would be charged? That seemed to be the consensus of opinion. What changed?
    If they weren't also led down the primrose path by Truthout (like so many were, ahem), I would think the desire to scoop other talking heads fueled their seeming certainty of indictment. All media, traditional and blogosphere alike, had everything to gain and nothing to lose by assuredly claiming Rove was going to be charged. Let's play alternate universe for a moment: had Rove been indicted, Shuster, Chris Matthews and others would have been all over the place, on-air and in promos, that they "were the first to break the news, weeks ago." Instead, back in reality, there was no indictment and these talking heads lose nothing - they can blame their sources for feeding them bad info or they cling to the notion some under-the-table (or even unspoken, inplicit) deal has been made to turn on others. The media's all-out fight for ratings and reputation has led to this: a reliance on less than reputable sources, a complete failure to seek corroborating info and a sad trend towards hyperbole and injecture. And Che - don't hold your breath - Fitzgerald won't be publicly discussing his decision to not file charges. In fact, he is legally prohibited from discussing the details of GJ testimony. He stuck with tradition by informing the individual facing charges that he was not going to file, but there is no similar tradition that requires him to hold a press conference or release a tell-all report.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 07:31:57 AM EST
    A few other questions which also come to mind are: Was Valerie Plame a covert agent covered by the law in question within the time frame specified in that law? If so, why has this not been confirmed? If so, who else is under investigation for breaking that law? If not, what was this investigation about? I don't know what Plame's status was at the time, but until it is confirmed that she was a covert agent and that the CIA was taking pains to keep her identity secret, I am disinclined to take the word of her husband that she was (his credibility has been seriously wounded, if not destroyed, on several points). Minus such confirmation, all we really have is a disagreement over what Iraq did or did not do in regard to Nigeria which was blown out of all proportion by both sides in the disagreement. And now, instead of "moving on", the usual partisans are blathering conspiracy theories about how Rove really has been indicted, or has cut some super-secret deal with Fitzgerald, or how if you wear your tin-foil hat at just the right angle it will deflect the cosmic rays from Venus into your left ear. It amazes me that on a site all too ready to assume any terrorist, or murder suspect, or rape suspect, is innocent in the face of mountains of evidence, very few people can even face the possibility that Rove has not been, and will not be, indicted because he did not break the law in this case, and because Fitz is at last coming to the conclusion that all he's going to get out of this is a manufactured perjury case he stands a very good chance of losing. Too many people here sound exactly like the Republican loonies who spent years trying to build a case against Clinton, only to settle for an honest case of perjury they would have had a hard time winning in a real court and had no chance at all of winning in the Senate. You can't get Bush, so you go after his advisors, but you can't get them either, so you go after their advisors. Eventually you'll nail some Whitehouse housekeeper for pocketing an Oval Office ashtray and call it a day. Until then, this site remains of primary interest as a sociological experiment on how paranoia and delusion are a bipartisan malady.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#9)
    by Patriot Daily on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 07:37:51 AM EST
    David Schuster, according to my memory, reported that Rove was likely to be indicted, according to his sources. Whatever his exact words were at the time of his reporting, it was my impression that he was reporting facts. Last night on Olbermann's show, however, he revealed that he had been talking to lawyers involved in the process who were providing their opinion. That his report of Rove's imminent indictment was based on opinion rather than fact should have been disclosed clearly at the time of this reporting.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 07:55:09 AM EST
    The speculation at KOS, and I hear also on Chris Matthews, is that Fitzgerald is/was in a battle about his authority in this investigation with the DOJ. The "Sealed vs Sealed" story is said to be about this, US vs Fitzgerald or visa versa I guess (I'm not a lawyer), and perhaps he's been "quashed." I'd be interested in any comments from Jeralyn about this possibility, and maybe more generally about the rules regarding "sealed" cases.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 08:02:24 AM EST
    I think we've lost this one, folks...in spite of overwhelming evidence from a lot of angles, Rove meandered away. Even if he would have been indicted, there's no reason to think a pardon wouldn't have been far behind. This group has NO shame.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 08:12:50 AM EST
    I might also add that Rove HAS paid a political price...not a genuinely measurable one, but a price nonetheless... Folks, this and the Francine Busby loss in CA-50 should be a wake-up call as to how important the Get Out The Vote effort for November should be.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 08:17:59 AM EST
    I think Jeralyn's points here are very good ones. I think I'll remain positive until I hear differently from Fitzgerald (which might take years I suppose).

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#15)
    by Slado on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 09:03:26 AM EST
    Did anyone watch Matthews last night? It was sad really because I love his show to see him and Shuster dance around the fact that they completely blew this story and wasted months and hours of air time promoting a theory that was bogus. Matthews was only left to say that Bush should feel bad that Rove still has a job becasue even if he isn't guilty of a crime he is guilty of misleading the american pupblic. Lame. Even Biden told Chris it didn't matter but Chris wouldn't give it up because for 3 years he's been incensed by this story. Then later in the show he had the gaul to admit that he didn't even understand the case when a women reporter (can't remember name) pointed out it's only a crime if Rove knew at the time he might have leaked it that Plame was covert. Matthews goes, Oh I didn't know that. Happy Fitzmas everyone!!!

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 09:07:19 AM EST
    The clowns on the left got carried away with dreams of frog-marching, and their bitter disappointment is quite delicious to observe. Yes, and the fact that this Administration is leading the country into an economic and moral cesspool by virtue of its unnecessary and unjustified war with Iraq, a war that has claimed thousands of lives - I suppose that's "delicious" to you too.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 09:14:21 AM EST
    Matthews gets so tangled up in simultaneously being unbiased (to attract Red and Blue staters) and Hardball aggressive that his positions invariably look confused at times. I was disappointed by Biden, he is a lawyer and knows full well that Fitz didn't say that Rove "hadn't broken the law." As I recall (maybe he just didn't do a good job or I was inattentive) he also didn't use the opportunity to highlight what wrongs were done in the Plame episode, and he didn't gather up all the other Republican outrages and start throwing them around as well.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#18)
    by Molly Bloom on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 09:44:54 AM EST
    For all you skeptics as to Plame's status and whether or not Fitz thought a crime was committed at all when Rove, Libby, Cheney and others began to conspire to out her. October 28, 2005 Patrick Fitzgerald
    Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community. Valerie Wilson's friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life. The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well known for her protection or for the benefit of all of us. It's important that a CIA officer's ithe officer but for the nation's security...

    I can say that for the people who work at the CIA and work at other places, they have to expect that when they do their jobs, that classified information will be protected. And they have to expect that when they do their jobs, that information about whether or not they're affiliated with the CIA will be protected and they run a risk when they work for the CIA that something bad could happen to them. But they have to make sure that they don't run the risk that something bad is going to happen to them for something done by their own fellow government employees...

    I'll be blunt. That talking point won't fly. If you're doing a national security investigation, if you're trying to find out who compromised the identify of a CIA officer, and you go before a Grand jury and if the charges are proven -- just remember there's a presumption of innocence -- but if it is proven that the Chief of Staff for the Vice President went before a federal Grand jury and lied under oath repeatedly and fabricated a story about how he learned this information, how he passed it on, and we prove obstruction of justice, perjury and false statements to the FBI, that's a very, very serious matter. And I'd say, I think people might not understand this, we as prosecutors and FBI agents, have to deal with false statements, obstruction of justice and perjury all the time. And the Department of Justice charges those statutes all the time. When I was in New York working as a prosecutor, we brought those cases because we realize that the truth is the engine of our judicial system. And if you compromise the truth, the whole process is lost. In Philadelphia where Jack works, they prosecute false statements and obstruction of justice. When I got to Chicago, I knew that people before me had prosecuted false statements, obstruction and perjury cases and we do it all the time. And a truck driver pays a bribe or someone else does something, where they go into a Grand jury afterward and lie about it, they get indicted all the time. Any notion that anyone might have that there is a different standard for a high official or that this is somehow singling out obstruction of justice or perjury is upside down. If these facts are true, if we were to walk away from this and not charge obstruction of justice as perjury, we might as well just hand in our jobs because our jobs in the criminal justice system is to make sure people tell us the truth. And when it's a high level official in a very sensitive investigation, it is a very, very serious matter that no one should take lightly.

    What we do know now is that Rove was running around talking to several reporters, including Cooper and Novak about a CIA agent whose status was classified. Whether or not Fitz can prove each and every element of a crime here, can anyone tell me why Rove hasn't lost his security clearance and why Bush hasn't fired the leaker as promised and as required by the agreement Rove signed when he was given the security clearance in the first place?

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 09:52:45 AM EST
    The bs meme from the wingnuts that no crime was committed is a joke. If there was no crime, there would have been no trial. Defense would have brought forward evidence on the first day that Plame was not covert and called it a day. The problem with prosecuting anyone in this case was proving intent because the espionage law is so tightly written.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:04:31 AM EST
    Justpaul, I don't know what Plame's status was at the time, but until it is confirmed that she was a covert agent and that the CIA was taking pains to keep her identity secret, I am disinclined to take the word of her husband that she was I can clear that up for you.
    the special counsel refers to Plame as "a person whose identity the CIA was making specific efforts to conceal and who had carried out covert work overseas within the last 5 years" IN RE: GRAND JURY SUBPOENA, JUDITH MILLER Decided February 15, 2005
    At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Libby Indictment


    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:06:21 AM EST
    Seems like kim's comment is right on, and I too would love to hear Jeralynn's take on the "Sealed vs. Sealed" story.
    The speculation at KOS, and I hear also on Chris Matthews, is that Fitzgerald is/was in a battle about his authority in this investigation with the DOJ. The "Sealed vs Sealed" story is said to be about this, US vs Fitzgerald or visa versa . . .
    Not really in the same vein, but then again it is: that business of Cheney and Rumsfeld back in the Ford admin. days being the ones to push for the exec. order making it so none of the phone co's that had been eavesdropping had to testify before Congress. Now they've got Gonzales doing their bidding--all over the place. From 12 May 2006 Baltimore Sun, interview with journalist Siobhan Gorman
    Are there historical precedents for phone companies participating in government eavesdropping? Yes. After World War II, the NSA's predecessor, the Army Signal Security Agency, sent representatives to the major telegraph companies and asked for cooperation in getting access to all telegraph traffic entering or leaving the United States. The companies complied, over the objections of their lawyers. When these practices came to light as part of a 1976 investigation into intelligence abuses, President Gerald R. Ford extended executive privilege, which shielded those involved from testifying publicly, to the telecommunications companies on the recommendation of then chief-of-staff Dick Cheney and then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, according to the Project on Government Oversight.


    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#14)
    by cmpnwtr on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:13:24 AM EST
    Fitz sold us out! That's what we can conclude. There is no system of justice we can count on. From Raw Story: "I've never seen, frankly, someone involved in an investigation of this kind given so many chances to continually correct and amend prior testimony. There are many prosecutors who would have indicted Rove on his first statement," George Washington University Law Professor Jonathan Turley told CBS. "He was given a great deal of deference and quite frankly, assistance, by the prosecutor." From Editor and Publisher: AP's Yost: Rove Got Away With 'Misleading' the Media AP Karl Rove By Pete Yost, The Associated Press Published: June 13, 2006 11:30 PM WASHINGTON The decision not to charge Karl Rove shows there often are no consequences for misleading the public.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#22)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:15:21 AM EST
    Molly Bloom-Nice try. As you may know, our local trolls have seen this quote many times and tons more like it proving Plame's NOC covert status as well as the fact that a serious crime compromising national security was committed. Since the troll mission is to disrupt, change the subject and to exclusively promote chatter from the wingnut echochamber your words are wasted on them. Hard not to try to set them straight, but the bottom line is we are not dealing with a lot of grey matter here. ppj et al get their talking points from powerline, coulter, fox, etc. Nothing else gets through. They are on a mission.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:25:56 AM EST
    No I don't believe the sealed case refers to an authority clash between Gonzales and Fitz. If that is what it was, I believe it would have been filed as a "miscellaneous" case, not a criminal case. The sealed case is clearly a criminal case and there are several other garden variety criminal cases that started out as sealed v. sealed.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:49:46 AM EST
    I'll take as stab at your questions:
    Did Karl Rove lie to investigators in the fall of 2003? If so, why is he not being prosecuted for it?
    No to the first part. The answer to the second part is "Because he told the truth."
    Does Fitz no longer believe Rove and Bob Novak coordinated their stories about their July 9 conversation?
    Fitzgerald no longer believes it, if he ever did. Since Rove isn't to be indicted, it's safe to assume Fitzgerald doesn't believe or can't prove Rove was involved in a conspiracy to obstruct justice with Novak.
    Is Fitzgerald absolving everyone in the White House Iraq Group of criminal culpability?
    No. He hasn't said so, so I think it's safe to assume he hasn't absolved them of anything.
    Who was Robert Novak's source? Who was Bob Woodward's source? Who was Walter Pincus's source?
    We don't know. They won't say. If Fitzgerald knows, he isn't talking. I believe Novak has said he will come clean after the investigation is over, whenever that is. The others, presumably, will never tell. My impression is that Fitzgerald never will, either.
    Why did mainstream reporters (David Schuster of MSNBC comes to mind) say a few weeks ago they believed Rove would be charged? That seemed to be the consensus of opinion. What changed?
    Presumably, one or more of the sources who Jason Leopold represented in his now-famous "24 business hours" story told Schuster et. al. Most of the MSM (and blogosphere, for that matter) believed that Rove would be indicted, so Schuster's certainty should come as no surprise to anyone. This whole affair seems to be validation of the old saying: "The truth does not depend on a consensus of opinion."

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 11:00:29 AM EST
    Recall that in the same press conference he made the assertion, now known to be false, that Libby was the first person to disclose her identity to a reporter. That is not quite correct. Fitzgerald said Libby was the "first official known to have told a reporter." This is in keeping with the metaphor Fitzgerald uses, of the umpire getting "sand thrown in his eyes". The fact that Libby is obstructing justice is what is preventing Fitzgerald from getting to the bottom of it all

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 01:47:24 PM EST
    I honestly don't know what all tha hoorah about Mr. Rove 'walking' is all about. All Mr. Fitzpatrick has said is that Mr. Rove is not being charged....(at this time) my parens. The Grand Jury has not closed and even if it does close, the Prosecutor can reopen with new evidence. Ifn I was K. Rove, I'd be sweating tha fact that Scooter Libbey is now facing tha entire weight of the prosecutorial team with no salient distractions, i.e., a 2nd prosecution. I'm curious as to how long Scooter's loyalty will last should he become convinced that he is facing 30 plus years in a Federal Slammer plus a Federal Misconduct Fine, Court and Atty's fees, no dinner circuit fees, no book royalties, no future Think-tank salaries, etc. while K. Rove supposedly skates? Mr. K. Rove is a long way from being out of tha legal forest methinks. I think that K. Rove's current situation is a carefully planned move by a very skillful prosecutor who still has a number of hides yet left to hang on tha barn door. We must not forget this Prosecutor's preferred plan of attack, my meager paralegal experience muses.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:15:05 PM EST
    So did Bush give immunity to Rove, and the WHIG, et al, like Specter was floating for the FISA criminals?

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimcee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:53:15 PM EST
    Justpaul has it about right. As the old adage goes "... a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham-sandwich." Obviously Karl Rove isn't the proverbial ham-sandwich. I enjoy this site immensely because it allows me to see into the world of the committed paranoic as did the cheap pamphlets that were handed out by Right wing nuts back in the late eighties through the nineties. The difference being that the 'Birchers' and thier fellow travelers were easy to identify by thier camo, missing teeth and penchance for firearms. Today we've stepped through the looking-glass and it is on the Left that we find the 'black helicopter' folks now. The difference is that the new paranoics dress in Dockers and golf shirts, have fine, straight teeth and take seminars in LV on how to espouse wacky conspiracy theories while being photogenic on TV. Funny how the goofy militia men thought that forest camo would blend in but in the end the best camo for paranoic politics in the US today is the yuppie uniform.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 04:09:14 PM EST
    You've gotta hunker right down in the dirt to sneak a troll under the wire, but you just may have pulled it off. I forgot the topic was Bogus Clinical Diagnoses of Those You're Afraid to Engage in Debate. So everyone's crazy but you, Rovesputin, jeepster and Shrubco Inc. That it Doctor? Where'd you get your degree; Supply Side University in Grenada?

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 04:29:18 PM EST
    And jimcee if you really buy justfos's distorting mirror take about non-specified "people here" declaring "every terrorist, murder suspect, rapist etc innocent", you've got no business declaring anyone else nuerotic. Placing a premium on the preservation of basic civil rights and the insurence of humane treatment isnt the same as declaring everyone innocent. Btw, Im still waiting for your cowardly fellow shrub shill to produce any evidence that the majority of people here support Hillary for President, but he seems to have run away again.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 04:31:56 PM EST
    Golf shirts, straight teeth! People in Utah have all that, and salvation too, not me! I sometimes wish that I,like the loony Republican majority, had a psycho prosecutor like Starr just to even the score after Clinton, and... BTW, to rescue this country from a much more destructive administration than Clinton's.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimcee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:31:10 PM EST
    Now, now Jondee, I never defended Bush in either post but pointed out the fact that Fitzgereld will not lay charges against Rove and that those who keep dwelling on this non-case are just wasting time and energy on a nothing when they could be planning for the future. There are certain catch-phrases that have not worked for the Left: 'No Blood For Oil!', 'Bush Lied People Died!', 'Abu Ghraib!' 'Guantanamo Bay!', 'Rove puts puppies in blenders!' etc. and they don't resonate with the electorate because they come off as hysterical. (Note the exclaimation points!!!) Nothing is more off-putting than someone so sure of thier opinions that they are unwilling to consider others views and dismiss them offhand and in a rather shallow way. It shows a certainty that comes with immaturity. I come here because I like my views challenged and they often are with civility and erudition and I like that. On the otherhand some would prefer that people such as PPakaJim, Justpaul, Patrick, Slado, et al and myself not correspond to TL. Some will freely use stereotypes, ad hominem and condescension but little logic and even less factual agrument. Some think that CharlieDontSurf is a forensic genius. Jondee, that someone is you.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:41:57 PM EST
    It is always kinda funny, kinda sad, when the trolls do the exact same thing that they complain about.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:47:23 PM EST
    Funny how the goofy militia men thought that forest camo would blend in but in the end the best camo for paranoic politics in the US today is the yuppie uniform. And there aren't any elitists in the GOP. Oh no, just a bunch a regular joe golf-trip-in-Scotland-enjoying, bribe-accepting, native-american-tribe-swindling salt of the earth types always looking out for the interests of the poor downtrodden corporation.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:54:56 PM EST
    No genius jimcee, just imaginative and funny and alot like the guys I grew up with. What can I say? So shoot me. What you posted about "the nuts" here and justfos's post about what "people here" think was just as trollish as anything Charlie ever posted, and you guys are still here. Consider yourselves fortunate.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:21:42 PM EST
    Here is emptywheel's new post on Rove where she points out that Fitzgerald does not plan to call Rove as a witness. And it is not likely that Libby will call him either. Looks like he is saving the 'unimpeachable' Rove for someone else's indictment. Cheney? One can only hope.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:22:39 PM EST
    Nothing is more off-putting than someone so sure of thier opinions that they are unwilling to consider others views and dismiss them offhand and in a rather shallow way How do you know this? Personally I have listened for hours on end to Monkey King, Machine Man, The Chevron Condoleeza Rice, and our abusive Sec. of Defense. I have read countless posts on RW sites and comments here and elsewhere. I read the letters in my local paper. I talk to other citizens. I have seriously considered the arguements of the GOP and their supporters. I have concluded that they, like you, are wrong, especially when I read your presumptive sewage about the radical left. If we didn't care, we'd split (as many have). Too bad for you we care about our children's futures. The big difference between us is that we know you also care. But that you actually are dumb enough to believe we do not: (It shows a certainty that comes with immaturity.) That is just more validation.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 12:56:07 AM EST
    Che:
    I'll believe it's over when I hear it from the horse's mouth
    Blogger citizenspook has posted an interesting analysis presenting a new perspective on what's really going on. He discusses several quotes from Fitzgerald's spokesman, Randall Samborn, including:
    "Mr. Fitzgerald's spokesman, Randall Samborn, said he would not comment on Mr. Rove's status."

    That's not the big one, but it does raise questions many bloggers and reporters have begun asking today. If Rove is no longer a "target" or "subject" in the Plame leak case, why doesn't Samborn or Fitzgerald just tell the people the simple truth? It appears that the truth is not simple.
    and ...
    Fitzgerald met with chief U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan before he notified Rove. Hogan has been overseeing the grand juries in the CIA leak case.

    Fitzgerald's spokesman, Randall Samborn, declined comment. Asked if the CIA leak investigation is still continuing, Samborn said, "I'm not commenting on that as well at this time."
    ... and reaches interesting conclusions. RANDALL SAMBORN INDICATES FITZGERALD'S PLAME INVESTIGATION MAY HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 01:20:52 AM EST
    I am having some difficulty pretending to be complacent about the recent news. Who of us would have been allowed to have Luskin come in time and again until the emperor was in proper attire? My thoughts? Fitz allowed Rove to testify till he got it right. Personally I feel the sealed vs. sealed is something that will be pardoned and the details never disclosed. Sort of a ruse to keep us quiet. Rove has got to love democrats because we are so delusional believing there is a difference between republicans and democrats. There isnt. Even laughing harder seeing us all upholding Fitz like a knight in shining armor. He wasn't. When Bush starts pardoning Cunningham, Abraham, Libby and others, it is going to resemble a human rendition of a Chip and Dale cartoon.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 06:39:02 AM EST
    So, I had fun reading that Citizenspook post. If Jeralyn is still reading comments here I'd be interested in her feelings about a "runaway jury" indicting Rove without Fitzgerald.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 09:03:12 PM EST
    I think that the unit pardoned Rove in secret. It can't be revealed though. What would the enemy think? If they found out that the president's top advisor was not above the law? Indicted no less? They would attack immediately, Even asymmetrical attacks would be likely. The WH (Rove) new talking point: 'if the democrats win in November the terrorists will certainly take over America'. If Rove were indicted the Democrats would take over Congress in November. Therefore the unitary executive war powers act demands that Rove must appear unimpeachable. He is an essential war time presidential unitary asset. For a president who loves to expand his powers ongoing war seem to be the optimum state.

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 10:13:38 PM EST
    Squeaky... I'm no lawyer, and pretty speculative in my off hours, so if you pull my leg I may just follow along! Wayne Madsen entertains even more extreme ideas about the Bushes and I certainly enjoy reading his stuff (tabloid journalism for the global politics junkie?).

    Re: Lingering Questions in PlameGate (none / 0) (#43)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 04:00:56 PM EST
    My 2 cents worth: Point one: For Mr. P. Fitzgerald to have made such a deal(s) as those I have seen suggested here, would be for him a seriously put to risk his future career. Point two: Attorneys and their associates are tha worst gossips of almost any profession. Point three: In my opinion there are two kinds of attorneys, those that make a living off of tha Law and those who practice tha Law. Personally I prefer tha 2nd kind. Point four: In my opinion, Mr. P. Fitzpatrick practices Law.