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Wednesday Open Thread

I'm on the road today. Here's a place for you to keep each other informed of the news -- and your opinions. Try to keep it civil, ok?

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    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:20:54 AM EST
    This is very entertianing. Jon Stewart and Ken Mehlman on The Daily Show

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:25:51 AM EST
    I was sorry to hear this week that Fitzgerald has, at least for the time being and possibly pending new developments in his investigation, said he does not anticipate indicting karl rove. It is curious that he did not say that he won't, and did not (and could not) pronounce rove clear or innocent of allegations against him. Whether rove is ever formally charged or indicted is, to my mind, irrelevant. The neocons, rove, bush, cheney, and this whole administration, have already been condemned, indicted and convicted in the court of public opinion.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:37:10 AM EST
    The neocons, rove, bush, cheney, and this whole administration, have already been condemned, indicted and convicted in the court of public opinion.
    I am not sure that means much, though Edger. Public opinion can change drastically in a relatively short period of time. Zarqawi's death, Roves clearnace, Bush's appearance in Iraq, and suddenly there is new light for the neocons. It is possible that things will improve over the coming months in Iraq. Perhaps the economy manages to hold its ground. Come elections this fall, nothing might change and Bush will declare he has more political capital to spend b/c the public has spoken. I don't mean to contradict you, or depress you. But, the above is more than a small possibility. The really sad part of it is that we will have to listen to slado and Jim tell us for two more years that we had our chance, but our side lost and thats why we hate bush and are so disappointed. SOmetimes I'm not sure if I want democrats to win back HR and Senate and take over the white house b/c I think it would be good for the country or if I want them to win so they will quit saying our side lost. ;)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:42:37 AM EST
    Along the same lines as Stewart/Mehlman, Robert G. Kaiser of WaPo makes the distinction between secrets that the gov keeps only because it makes them look bad (or is illegal) and actual secrets that truly engender national security.
    Secrecy and security are not the same. On this point, Exhibit A for journalists here at The Post is the 1971 Pentagon Papers case.
    The common denominator between then and now:
    What isn't new is a government trying to hide its activities from the public, and a press trying to find out what is being hidden.
    The responsibility of the fourth estate
    The American experiment is an experiment in self -government. The Founders established Americans' right to govern themselves. Abuse of government power was their abiding concern. The Founders saw a free press as a tool to control the abuse of power, which is why they gave the press special protection in the First Amendment to the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom . . . of the press."
    WaPo If anything, they are not doing their job, ergo the blogosphere.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:43:11 AM EST
    Edger & Peaches, The prescription for what ails the Democrats was first voiced by Albert Einstein: Imagination is more important than knowlege. After all, what good is knowledge if you lack the vision to utilize it?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:44:57 AM EST
    And knowledge SHOULD be spelled correctly in a quote about it, wouldn't you think? Sheesh.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Joseph Hughes on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:52:47 AM EST
    No, Mary Cheney, it's not your turn

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:53:34 AM EST
    Peaches: I am not sure that means much, though Edger. Public opinion can change drastically in a relatively short period of time. Yes it can. It has a rather ruthless way of shining a bright light on the most unreaonable and easily lead, manipulated, and conned people in society. I don't mean to contradict you, or depress you. I know, and it it doesn't, really. Because the converse to what I said above is also true. And there will always be the Peaches, Squeakys, Jondees, Scribes, John Manns, Soccerdads, Dadlers, Glantons, SharonWs, Jeralyns, and Charliedontsurfs and many others of the world that I haven't named here who will not be silenced and will continue to teach. I believe that that will eventually reach a viral stage, and reason will win out in the long run. :-D

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 10:54:46 AM EST
    Here's an interesting rebuttal to Gore's movie. The arguments sound pretty reasonable to me, but I'm no expert.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 11:05:56 AM EST
    dadler: And knowledge SHOULD be spelled correctly in a quote about it, wouldn't you think? No big deal, long as you use your imagination!

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by kdog on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 11:07:20 AM EST
    I will say this...the fact that our country is going down the tubes ain't so bad when the Mets are 7 1/2 games up and on a tear. Just gotta keep the mother together through October.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 11:10:30 AM EST
    PMain-
    If they're stupid, I'll take their side anyday of the week over your smart, McJob people.
    Well here Juan Cole, a man who grew up in a military family, and who is a big supporter of the troops, sums it up.
    US troops are under enormous strain in Iraq. They cannot most often tell friend from foe. When they first arrived, they were encouraged to make friends with local Iraqis, but now often are told to keep to themselves, just because it isn't clear who the guerrillas are. They are apparently constantly taking mortar or sniping fire, most of it ineffectual and so never announced to the press. If they go out on the road, they are in substantial danger of being blown up. Few units haven't lost a dear friend and colleague. They are fighting for a local government that often seems not much to want them and clearly wishes them gone sooner rather than later (Maliki says at most 18 months). Some high ranking members of the government have been scathing about them. The Europeans see US troops in Iraq as a bigger threat to stability in the Middle East than is Iran. Some 60 percent of Americans think their being there was a mistake in the first place, which cannot be good for morale, which is slipping inside the military according to polls. They signed up to fight for their country and their country asked them to fight in Iraq, and in the military you do as you are told, so it is a raw deal for them to end up being so unappreciated when they are doing brave things every day. So I get it that they are frustrated. But, it just is very bad politics for them to sit around singing songs about killing Iraqis, and worse politics to videotape it.


    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 11:20:34 AM EST
    I have a question for the internet savvy here. I have a hotmail account that gets hundreds of spams a week. I opened a few today and find at the end of the messages there is a list of about 20-40 words that are completely unrealted and nonsensical. Is this some sort of spamming ploy to avoid filters?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Patrick on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 11:22:52 AM EST
    and for the spammers, I have no intention of buying CTXE.PK stock. So stop sending the e-mails. But then again, what if I'm missing out on a great opportunity??? :-P

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 11:58:30 AM EST
    Patrick- what do you expect from publisher Judi McLeod:
    Our Toronto, a right-wing monthly newspaper which focused on Toronto City Council. In the 2000s, Our Toronto Free Press evolved into the Canada Free Press, which is now published online only.
    Her staff is not remotely balanced. The CFP is routinely referred to as a right wing rag.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 12:09:57 PM EST
    Patrick. I wouldn't call myself savvy at all at all. But the best advice is don't open any emails that you are not 100% certain who sent them. Delete the lot, there are plenty malicious emails dressed up to look innocent.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 12:23:43 PM EST
    Hi Patrick, Marine geology is Prof Bob Carter's specialty and I couldn't find any peer reviewed papers of his on CO2 and global warming. He also claims that GW stopped in 1998 and that Australia's Great Barrier Reef is doing fine. As a fellow researccher all the above leave me very sceptical. If I have time I'll try to look up more about him.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 12:24:13 PM EST
    Patrick, This quote from your link disturbs me in it's illogic: Carter does not pull his punches about Gore's activism, "The man is an embarrassment to US science and its many fine practitioners, a lot of whom know (but feel unable to state publicly) that his propaganda crusade is mostly based on junk science." So Gore and his "propaganda crusade" have some magical power to stifle the will of otherwise good scientists? To quote a drunken John Wayne: re-g*ddamn-diculous. I hear in this the irrational core of crap I sensed throughout your link. So, putting that aside, I have no doubt there are climate experts who think, really, that global warming is a fake scare, dreamed up by lefties and enviros who really have, what, healthier air and water on their minds. How they'll profit from it, I don't know. Yes yes, Gore is making money on his book, movie, whatever, but go find out where the money goes and get back to me. He seems to me to be doing nothing more than taking a very public stand for reasons of founded belief. If you think money and ego are his cheif motivations, so bet it. Money is a much larger motivator for opponents, who almost entirely tend to come from connections to the oil industry. How much cash is in the ground waiting to be pumped and sold? Far more than whatever Gore is going to make for himself. To elaborate and hopefully not be redundant, obviously a great number of climate scientists are concerned and they are not untrained kooks. What is their motivation to support such an "embarrassment to US science" like Gore? Were that characterization of him true, the same scientist in your linked article who made that assertion would've then made it about ALL the scientists supporting the POV of the film, instead of making that literally kooky assertions about the power of Gore propaganda to silence critics with as much cash as the oil industry. The largest motivation for NOT doing something serious about cutting CO2 emissions is money. There is NOTHING to lose in cleaning up our act to fight our negative impact on climate. It's good for the earth and good for humans. Let's say it does absolutely nothing, and global warming turns out to be complete and utter b.s., and the whole effort only makes earth cleaner and more livable, more fruitful and more renewably oriented. That would actually be reason enough to call it a complete success. There is potentially MUCH to lose in simply doing nothing. And the only real gain is money. Not a tradeoff risk I'm willing to take.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 12:27:34 PM EST
    Patrick, some spammers use the 'nonsense' as an identifying code so that if you try to opt out they know you have a legitimate address. And OW's right, if you use Windows, and especially Internet Exploder, you are vulnerable if you even open the message.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by desertswine on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 12:47:00 PM EST
    Are you ready for a little intervention into Somalia?
    President George Bush has declared he will not tolerate Somalia becoming a Taliban-style Afghanistan.
    Little George's new Adventure?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 01:19:57 PM EST
    Let's face the reality. American public wants terrorists dead and they want to win.
    Thanks for enlightening us with this fascinating insight into the American consciousness from the most notorious TL poster of meaningless trite.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by peacrevol on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 01:24:15 PM EST
    After all, what good is knowledge if you lack the vision to utilize it?
    what good is knowledge for a political party without more organization than the democrats exhibit right now?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 01:38:58 PM EST
    In case you haven't noticed, the economy sucks. CD yields have inverted. Stocks are plunging. A recession is upon us.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 01:54:07 PM EST
    Narius, pray tell the name of the charm school that you attended.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 01:58:58 PM EST
    Manifest destiny has reached the end of its tether at the dead end. Inertia is the only thing keeping it going. This is a time to "try mens souls" and force people to step up and assume their rightful evoloutionary role. There's no reason why it cant happen. The system, its inertia and those completely resigned to it (the already dead) want war. Always. If not this one than some other one. I dont know if its possible "to work within the system" at all; which dosnt mean we cant accomplish amazing things - but we all need to step up.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 02:01:03 PM EST
    Most Americans including myself would not care less about other people dying out there.
    This is just about the most insulting statement I've ever read here, and is a very dark and sick view of the world, and of other people. I think if you walk down the street and say this to 10 people you may get punched a couple of times, and will be walked away from in disgust 6 or 7 times. Links? Substantiation? On what do you base this statement?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 02:02:47 PM EST
    Beria's School of Coquettes and Debutantes.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 02:04:14 PM EST
    Google. Results 1 - 10 of about 188,000,000 for "americans care".

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 02:11:06 PM EST
    Jondee. Your Manifest destiny piece, original? And yes,Beria would have made a fine bedfellow.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 02:46:41 PM EST
    Oscar - Plagiarized from my 5th Grade English teacher Heironymous McGonigle ("the firebrand" subsequently tenured by the good graces of Holy Cross Sanitarium in Williamantic Conn) with additional input from Big Tex. lol. Yes it was original. I think.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 02:53:59 PM EST
    I read a quote earlier today, something along the lines of: "A man who tells the unvarnished truth as a rare and pathological creature who is despised while alive and forgotten after death."

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 02:54:37 PM EST
    "...is as rare..."

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 02:55:40 PM EST
    "...is a rare..." I'll stop now...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:05:53 PM EST
    You have to able to recognize "the unvarnished truth" to know whether or not it's forgotten or despised.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:10:10 PM EST
    That sounded like it could have come from Nietzche's stepbrother. The bitter, cynical one in the family.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:18:36 PM EST
    Found the actual quote:
    "No normal human being wants to hear the truth. It is the passion of a small and aberrant minority of men, most of them pathological. They are hated for telling it while they live, and when they die they are swiftly forgotten." -H.L. Mencken


    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by desertswine on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:21:39 PM EST
    "If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh; otherwise they'll kill you." - the other Oscar Wilde

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:27:42 PM EST
    Well I was a close; a Nietzche disciple. What are the odds? Of course, I'll take a cynic of Menckens stripe who at least was passionate and indignant, over the morbidly cynical ones of today that hide it behind a slick gameshow host veneer.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:40:04 PM EST
    Why hasnt the Right ever pushed for a cross burning amendment? Must be because they're so bullish on the whole seperation of church and state thing. Thats gotta be it.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:46:50 PM EST
    Jondee
    Why hasnt the Right ever pushed for a cross burning amendment?
    There is a cross burning amendment in the confederate version of the constitution. For and not against when appropriate.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 03:53:21 PM EST
    I suppose we should prepare ourselves for Jim's devastating Sen. Byrd comeback.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimcee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 05:03:51 PM EST
    As far as most respondents seemed concerned here the question of human suffering is an easy one. If you suffer under despotic regimes such as the Taliban, Saddam, Castro or the new flavor of the day, al Queda in Somalia then that is just fine. If someone tries to free you of that oppression without UN approval, you are American, your name is Bush and your name is followed by a 'R' then that is imperialism and makes you a war criminal. If someone tries to free you from oppression in say Bosnia or Kosovo against the UN's wishes and bomb civilian targets, possibly even another country's embassy and your name is Clinton that is followed by a 'D' then just give that administration a look-away pass. The selective rage on the part of most radical Leftists would be laughable if it didn't represent thier true beliefs. Aside from that how about that Palestinian civil war on page 12. How about that the Israeli doctor who removed shrapnel from the sole young survivor of the Gaza beach bombing last week says that the removed material was not Israeli shell material but Hamas style landmine material. Funny how the Palestinian Hamas folks had a camera right on scene at the time. But of course the Israelis are lying.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 05:28:40 PM EST
    jimcee - And you're claiming that thats the driving force behind the invasion and occupation; to free people from despotic regimes? Then why hasnt there been at the very least a push, or even a discussion of a push, to stop the investing (enabling) of the billions that have gone to regimes every bit as despotic as Iraq under Saddam was such as China's. And btw, you're either not very well educated or completely toxified by talk radio kool aid if you honestly believe that Clinton didnt draw just as much fire from "the radical Left" (of course the radical left to you is anything left of Lieberman, political scholar that you are), as he did from the right. I dont know where you and justfos get this "everyone here loves the Clintons" b.s, but its not from carefully reading at this sit.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 05:30:07 PM EST
    site.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 05:55:13 PM EST
    T'is Woeful and sad, Rover has skated. Our appetite for his blood was not to be sated. But there on the horizon, Grass roots organizin' The ghost of Tom Joad, reincarnated.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 05:55:51 PM EST
    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 05:57:10 PM EST
    oopsie...that should have linked you to www.tomjoad.org tired...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:18:53 PM EST
    Peaches writes:
    The really sad part of it is that we will have to listen to slado and Jim tell us for two more years that we had our chance, but our side lost and thats why we hate bush and are so disappointed.
    Hmmm, nope. No. I would never claim that you hate Bush because you lost an election. That hatred is too visceral to be laid at the feet of mere politics. Jondee writes to jimcee
    if you honestly believe that Clinton didnt draw just as much fire from "the radical Left"
    I would say that big difference us that during Clinton's days the radical Left wasn't DNC and capable of commanding the presence of the Senate Minority/Majority Leader for a "convention" of the radical Left. Leiberman was welcome in the party, as well as a few other liberals, and the party was able to win two national elections and come close in the third. Yes sir, the radical Left has brought a great deal of succdess to the Demos. Dadler - When those smart global warming types can give me a five day accurate forecast fourth months out, let me know. Otherwise I'll just keep understanding that it is junk science practiced for money, political power by terrifying the great unwashed and impressing the under educated and poorly informed. Che - Yes, stocks are doing so poor that I have lost 5% of my 43% increase. Time to look for the window....? I don't think so.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:31:32 PM EST
    Patrick: I have a hotmail account that gets hundreds of spams a week. My hotmail account gets 20-30 per day as well. My gmail account gets 1 or 2 every couple of days...

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Edger on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:38:42 PM EST
    Peaches: The really sad part of it is that we will have to listen to Slado and Jim tell us for two more years that we had our chance, but our side lost and thats why we hate bush and are so disappointed. Background noise. You know, I'll take that back partly, I think. I may disagree with him often but Slado is more reasonable lately it seems, and actually entering into meaningful discussions.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:39:20 PM EST
    ppj - And of course, the radical strategy of preemptive war by your "uniter" (of the 35%) has nothing to do with radicalizing "the Left". And whats this "during Clintons days"? I thought you said before you stopped voting Dem in '68? Isnt that when "the takeover" happened? Its always a time-of-war with you guys, and we already know about your stance toward opposition and criticism during times of war. Dont you think it would be more honest to reveal to us once-and-for-all what this one party you seem to envision would be like?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 06:45:28 PM EST
    "..for money and political power by terrifying the great unwashed, under educated and poorly informed" I thought the religious right had that demograph wrapped up.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 07:02:23 PM EST
    Patrick: I have a hotmail account that gets hundreds of spams a week. It's generally a good rule to NEVER open an email unless you are quite sure who it came from. If THAT was the goal of the govt/private net "protectors", I'd be 100%. But they just want to make money off us (again). I have a nephew that sends me spam vids and images. I never open those attachments either, as they are often infected with viruses. As per edger, gmail is also a good option for PC users. So far I have kept my spam down to 4 t0 6 per day. BTW I have a law enforcement question: Are the minutemen breaking the law or are they deputized?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimcee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 07:02:44 PM EST
    Jondee, If private parties want to invest in Chinese companies so be it and I would say the same about Cuba. The blockade of that country is a waste of time. As a libertarian I believe that people can invest thier money any way they choose whether it be GOOGLE en Chine, Haliburton or an organic produce farm after all it is thier money. If what you mean by 'Talk Radio' NPR you are correct! OK, I often listen to the CBC being near the border and all. I don't really like modern yakfest AM radio. Also there's a great classic station here as well. And no the radical left didn't reject Clinton's war, it ignored it. Where were the 100,000 person marches? I must have missed them. When I say radical left I mean just that, radical, all emotion and no logic, an ability to believe that anyone that disagrees with them is less educated, stupid, a fool, a tool or a Nazi. I mean narrow-mindedness that refuses to even consider an opposing point of view and would prefer to back-pat and high five others who are like minded, the more insulting the better. I would suggest you try visiting some rightwing sites and respond with your logic and let me know how it works out for you. It is a great exercise in both forensics and humility. I know first hand and that is why I come here. Thank you TalkLeft.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 07:06:25 PM EST
    Heavan forbid anyone should discuss science around the great unwashed and poorly educated; might make 'em start gettin uppity. Next thing they'll start questioning out-sourcing, down-sizing and the "missing" $20 Bil or whatever it is. Best to keep 'em dumb eh Jim?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 08:07:07 PM EST
    jimcee - Explain to me how blockading a country is a waste of time but invading and occupying isnt (seemingly). On one hand you use a moral argument in favor of preemptive war and "liberation" which entails the morally questionable results of societal chaos, disenfranchisment, tens-of-thousands of collateral casualties etc But when the alternative of the more immediatly bloodless possibility of blackade is posited you dismiss it out of hand. Are you saying that the preservation of "free markets" at all costs is a more sacred duty than exhausting all avenues to prevent further blood shed? And if you're trying to tell me the Left has the market cornered on irrationality after the religious right clown-fest we've been witnessing (without which Bush wouldnt be where he is), all I can say is you've got to be kidding.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 14, 2006 at 08:29:39 PM EST
    Gosh jimcee I thought yuppies and libertarians were the same. Both are fixated with the notion of personal entitlement. Isn't that what they mean by the 'me' generation?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 06:29:50 AM EST
    Peaches I promise not to gloat to much come November 2006. Patrick, nice try on the link but you should know better with this group that no amount of fact is going to pursuade most on this site that they have been taken on a giant ride when it comes to global warming. They will dismiss the publisher as a "right wing rag" if the arguemnt doesn't suite them but accept Al Gores credentials with no question of him motives. I simply remind myself that at one time glaciers covered most of Norht America and some how they melted without the internal combustion engine. Dinasour bones are discovered in Montana and Canada. How do we think these cold blooded creatures survied our winters? Must have been warmer then. Etc... IMHO the earth is much bigger then any of us and we really can't harm it. We can change it but this whole debate is really about a fear of our own well being and the belief that we can somehow control mother nature. We can't as Katrina, volcanoes, mud slides, forrest fires and all the other natuaral disasters teach us. See when you don't beleive in anything bigger then yourself you are able to convince yourself that not only are you the cuase of the problem but some how you can fix it. This IMHO simply isn't true and we should yes keep the enviroment beautiful and clean for ourselves as Dadler suggests but dump the scare tactics and forget about ridiculous policies like Kyoto.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 07:07:37 AM EST
    simply remind myself that at one time glaciers covered most of Norht America and some how they melted without the internal combustion engine.
    A brief history of ice ages here.
    Dinasour bones are discovered in Montana and Canada. How do we think these cold blooded creatures survied our winters? Must have been warmer then.
    Sixty five million years ago it was.
    and the belief that we can somehow control mother nature. We can't as Katrina, volcanoes, mud slides, forrest fires and all the other natuaral disasters teach us.
    Katrina: A hurricane agravated by unnaturally warm water in the Gulf of Mexico. Mud slides: Usually assocciated with deforestation. Forest fires: Increasing due to climate change.
    IMHO the earth is much bigger then any of us and we really can't harm it.
    Given this is an example of your mentality, consider yourself fortunate that I take the time to reply to your ridiculous perceptions.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 07:13:15 AM EST
    IMHO the earth is much bigger then any of us and we really can't harm it.
    so stupid its its... there isn't a word to describe the degree of ignorance that goes behind such a statement. But to people like this the only thing that is i9mportant is corporate pofits, and besides the end is near.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 07:48:40 AM EST
    jimcee....I don't believe for a second the US government is concerned with freeing anyone from tyranny. I don't think you do either, you are far too intelligent. Regarding Somalia, I've read we are now monetarily supporting the warlords that shot our choppers down under Clinton, in their struggle against the Muslim crazies. Will we never learn? I don't know that we have the ability to free others from tyranny without just adding death and destruction to the mix. The best we can do is not support in any way a government that is tyrannical. Call me isolationist, but I say it's the best we can do.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 08:01:09 AM EST
    One would like to think that progressives would be better than the Rethugs. Apparently thats asking just too much, proving that those who covet power are self-centered scum.via Suburban Guerrilla

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 08:05:17 AM EST
    Oscar...you amaze me with your confidence. 65 million years ago is exactly my point. How many cycles of warming and cooling do you suppose occured between now and then without humans? Your link only showed that the earth warms and cools without humans. Katrina allegation. Unproven. Please provide links not exagerated assumptions. Mudslides. Touche. I was on a roll. Noticed you said nothing about earthquakes or volcanoes. Soccerdad, keep the insults to yourself and respond with an argument. We can only harm the earth in terms of how it affects us. I guess if we launched every nuclear weapon in our arsenal we might set it back a few millions years but the earth works on a much bigger playing feild then your 100 years of possible existance my blogging freind. Here's another link from a right wing rag showing what some think of Al Gore's fantasy movie... Most of you won't read it though because it expresses an opinion opposite of yours. NRO

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 08:47:52 AM EST
    We can only harm the earth in terms of how it affects us. I guess if we launched every nuclear weapon in our arsenal we might set it back a few millions years but the earth works on a much bigger playing feild then your 100 years of possible existance my blogging freind.
    Slado, this is obvious. But, afterall, we should only really care about the Earth in terms of how it affects humans. We care about other species, because we assume they are good for the planet, which is good for us. We are a small part of the ecosystem. I am not a climate expert. I don't have the expertise to know what is happening to the ice fields on Greenland or the permafrost in Alaska. I have to trust reports of people who claim to be experts. I could be fooled by these experts. Likewise, I don't know how to measure CO2 in our atmosphere, but noone seems to be arguing against the fact that CO2 is increasing in the atmosphere and that it has increased since the beginning of the industrial age and the start of a fossil fuel driven economy vs. a solar economy. This would suggest that humans are responsible for the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. I am just using reasoning that appears to me to be rational and makes sense, so tell me when I go wrong. I don't know if CO2 is green house gas and I don't know how to conduct an scientific experiment demonstrating that it is, but experts tell me that it is and I haven't heard many counter experts suggest that it is not. Thus, burn fossil fuels>CO2 emmissions rise> Earth warms>climate changes. THe Earth is vast and has many complex systems that occur which make the measurement of weather over short periods of time difficult to predict and also establish trends. However, given my limited expertise, the above relationships between burning fossil fuels (which experts tell me is a carbon based fuel supply) and CO2 and global warming makes sense. So, the arguments seem to be about the degree of effects on climate and the rise of CO2 in the atmosphere. How much will the Earth wam? and how will climate change effect our ability to maintain our current economy and possibly to survive into the future. (of course, we both know that humans are the same as any other species on the planet and our existence is finite). My take is that our existence on the planet is that of stewards who should take care of our neighbors and species we share the land with. We should not purposely do harm others, othe species or the ecosystem that we depend on for survival. Tha is how I would like to live my life and it is how I wish to teach children to live theirs.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 09:29:11 AM EST
    This Gore's-doing-it-for-the-money etc is such a lameass smear. Gore can get 15 to 20 a pop on the speaker circuit talking about anything or could go-reptilian and pick his spot on K-Street yesterday. I hate to be so pejorative,(whats stopping you now you say), but if juvenile mud-slinging and sh*t-vet tactics about "real motives" are the best the unwieldy slime machine can muster, thats a very good sign for our side. The truth always outs eventually, and then how'er you guys going to look?

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by scribe on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 09:36:47 AM EST
    All in the spirit of good, nasty snark, you know that She-Pundit-with-the-long-blond-hair, well, she ain't naturally blond, for starters. And, her high school classmates continue to be embarrassed by her behavior.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 09:46:14 AM EST
    The Swift-Skank-for-Truth. Yes I know, I define myself well and the Left like to make claims etc etc

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 09:52:44 AM EST
    likes

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 09:53:11 AM EST
    And there is this:link

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 10:21:03 AM EST
    Noticed you said nothing about earthquakes or volcanoes
    Oscar...you amaze me with your confidence.
    I would do, wouldn't I.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 10:27:38 AM EST
    slado then dont make such stupid comments

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Slado on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 01:51:48 PM EST
    soccer your just plain mean and I won't stoop to your level. Stupid head. :-> Peaches you are right the argument is really about degrees. Some use scare tactics to push their point...Al Gore and some ingoner the existence of the issue...George Bush till now (I won't say problem because to me it's not proven.) I think cleaner fuel, more enegry efficient products etc... are great and as an engineer to me they make environmental and economical sense but to push an agenda to change our culture on a theory that isn't proven and then to demand that criticism be silenced smells fishy to me and makes me think there are other issues involved.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 15, 2006 at 08:24:57 PM EST
    Jondee writes:
    ppj - And of course, the radical strategy of preemptive war by your "uniter" (of the 35%)
    New figure is 40%.... They're coming... ;-)

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 06:23:29 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - Disagree all you want.

    Re: Wednesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by Dadler on Fri Jun 16, 2006 at 10:15:13 AM EST
    PPJ & SLADO, You go ahead and keep ignoring it all, ignore all the fine scientists and all the Nobel Prize winners, and just keep doing what you're doing. If you think that's a real plan, then I'd say we disagree to a fathomless degree. I don't your takes in the least little bit. The notion that there is more profit or "power" to be had in promoting the GW threat than there is in the status quo of oil and internal combustion and coal burning and the like...this is simply laughable in its lack of even the most marginal proof. There are TRILLIONS of dollars waiting to be pumped from the ground, and this money constitutes the basis for the majority of criticism of those who genuinely think we are going great damage. Show me the list of scientists who pooh-pooh GW and the list of those greatly concerned about GW's effects. A comprehensive list. The weight of qualifications and expertise falls greatly on the side of those scientists raising the warning flag. This is just reality. If you choose to ignore it, that's one thing, but to claim these people aren't eminiently qualified, and to just dismiss them as kooks with power and money on their mind...come on, that's a reactionary response and it doesn't hold water. Warm water OR cold water. :-)