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Whither Our Privacy Rights?

By Jeralyn, Section Civil Liberties
Posted on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 11:05:13 AM EST
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There's a good editorial in the Des Moines Register on our vanishing privacy rights:

President Bush dismisses the privacy implications of this government spying by calling it a "terrorist surveillance program." That suggests only those guilty of something are affected. But there's no way to know for sure in advance of a search that the party is guilty of anything. Besides, that makes a mockery of the American system of criminal justice, which contains elaborate safeguards that protect even the guilty from unconstitutional searches.

Even if government spying is intended to be directed only at criminal or terrorist plots, there is no way to guard against abuses when the process is done in total secrecy and there are no checks by either Congress or the courts.

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    • Whither Our Privacy Rights? | 42 comments (42 topical)
    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#1)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 12:37:55 PM EST
    Why is it that its the same people claiming that we have to spread democracy and love of freedom to Iraq and the world are so eager to give up their own rights. I suggest that they have no clue as to the meaning of true freedom as it applies to individuals. They are actually so afraid of real personal freedom and choice that they latch on to the all powerful state as their security blanket. That is what ties religous fundies to the far right. For the far right nationalism is their religion. Both groups are unable to think critically and independently. They attach themselves to the authority of their religion.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 02:06:14 PM EST
    Why is it that the same people so concerned about "privacy" fail to ignore that the Executive Branch has listened to, spied on & monitored its citizens from the Revolutionary War on during times of war & armed conflict? That the very writers, creators & supporters of the Constitution supported Washington's monitoring of American citizens. The example given by the Des Moines Register completely ignores reality & the fact that most browsers' default settings allow that information to be given freely to anyone in the form of cookies & histories. ISP records are like phone records & the phone companies have to keep them for much longer than 2 years & that was policy well before W was in office & the guise of the current war. Small businesses are suggested to keep their records for 7 years in case of an audit. All cases of pure privacy violations as well, right? Soccerdad, I guess to you judging people's religious beliefs is a fine example of "independent" & "critical" thinking on your part & the not the irrational, proto-racist views they appear to be to me. How can you place yourself in the position of supporting "true freedom" & "choice" when you belittle those that have made their choice... though it doesn't happen to toe your personal political line? Replace "right fundies" or "far right" w/ blacks or Jews & you tell me what you mean or what your point really is. Heaven help that someone "attach themselves" to their personal beliefs, at least according to you. That is unless you happen to arrive at your conclusion, then it is perfectly fine. What is the difference between telephone companies keeping their records of phone calls made & ISP's keeping record of web-sites visited? AOL monitors what sites are visited & use that information to support & advertise to its members. Spyware, Malware, etc does the same thing. Google, Yahoo, the NYT & LAT all have tracking cookies that are loaded whenever you open their sites. Our dear host here has a site monitor to record the number of visits & monitors whether or not you visit the displayed advertisers from the site. Let me guess, more violations of your "privacy." You probably have a better argument if Al Qaeda, other terrorists or the 911 hijackers hadn't used the Internet to communicate, if it wasn't/isn't being used as a recruiting tool, means to fund or if web based attacks weren't being launched against those that question them or their motives.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 02:23:00 PM EST
    To bring the issue forward it seems appropriate for the pollsters to start including the simple question of Do You Think Your President is Protecting The American Constitution? Yes or No. (Call me PollyAnna) in the weekly polls of rating Bush's job on the war on Iraq, economy, etc.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Sailor on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 02:58:53 PM EST
    Why is it that the same people so concerned about "privacy" fail to ignore that the Executive Branch has listened to, spied on & monitored its citizens from the Revolutionary War on during times of war & armed conflict?
    why is that some commenters ignore that this has always been a constitutional violation? 'but he did it to' is not an argument for your POV, it is what kids say when they get caught.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 03:02:41 PM EST
    Why is it that the same people so concerned about "privacy" fail to ignore that the Executive Branch has listened to, spied on & monitored its citizens from the Revolutionary War on during times of war & armed conflict? That the very writers, creators & supporters of the Constitution supported Washington's monitoring of American citizens.
    PMain, Horsesh*t! Show us where the "writers, creators & supporters of the Constitution" supported the "monitoring" of US citizens in the absence of a warrant issued by a neutral magistrate(s).

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 03:07:47 PM EST
    'but he did it to' is not an argument for your POV, it is what kids say when they get caught.
    Or legal scholars call precedent

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 03:16:06 PM EST
    the Executive Branch has listened to, spied on & monitored its citizens from the Revolutionary War on during times of war & armed conflict?
    And when they have it has lead to the worst abuses of civil liberties in our history. Please recall the quote attributed to Ben Franklin: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
    ISP records are like phone records & the phone companies have to keep them for much longer than 2 years & that was policy well before W was in office & the guise of the current war. Small businesses are suggested to keep their records for 7 years in case of an audit. All cases of pure privacy violations as well, right?
    Keeping the records aren't as much of a problem as turning them over to the CIA. Hello?
    You probably have a better argument if Al Qaeda, other terrorists or the 911 hijackers hadn't used the Internet to communicate,
    You'd probably have a better argument if we had gotten rid of the Bill of Rights right after 9/11, because the "terrorists hate our freedoms".

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#8)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 03:18:43 PM EST
    Or legal scholars call precedent
    I'm interested to see the precedent that overturned the Fourth Amendment.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 03:26:13 PM EST
    Ernesto, From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Those_who_would_give_up_Essential_Liberty "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety", is an oft misquoted phrase commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin. The quote is taken from, "An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania," first published anonymously in London in 1759. The quote is an excerpt from a letter written in 1755 from the Assembly to the Governor of Pennsylvania. Benjamin Franklin did publish the edition printed in Philadelphia in 1812, and most likely the original, but denies writing any part of it. The quote, however, may have originated from Franklin and been excerpted for the book by the author.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#10)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 03:40:08 PM EST
    Thanks, I read that, too. Along with reading the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. Didn't see anything in there about allowing the executive branch to spy on us, though.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Johnny on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 04:24:45 PM EST
    I am still amazed at the trouble righties have with distinguishing business from government, especially with regards to harvesting information.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 04:25:52 PM EST
    Ernesto, I guess you, like the author of the Des Moines article, forgot to read the recent decision of the US Court of Appeals which upheld the government's position & found it a "reasonable policy choice." Apparently they agree w/ me that there are no 4th Amendment or civil rights violations. Maybe the SCOTUS will decide differently, but since the majority of that information is available publicly to Internet users already, I suspect differently & really how "unreasonable" is it? I mean why give law enforcement the same useful tools that have already had for phone records for decades. But let's not let a little like rule of law get in the way, after all they are whithering away our privacy rights. Though the funny thing is no one can name a person who has had the rights violated by this.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 04:32:20 PM EST
    The only justifiable reason for mentioning Franklin and Bush in the same sentence is as a point of comparison for a Franklin stool sample.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#14)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 04:38:56 PM EST
    Pman I'll use smaller words maybe you will understand. The hard core relgious fundamentalist [note restriction] turn their life over to their relgion. Maybe it was a "free" choice maybe it wasn't, depends on the circumstance. However, having done that they, in essence, have given up independent thinking and choice to follow a strict set of "rules" which govern their every act which is done whithout much thought. They do it because they belong to the group and are told to do it. See Fromm's "The art of Being"

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 04:41:59 PM EST
    note counter to what you slander me with, I never said that they did not have the right to do as they do. So KMA

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#16)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 05:26:50 PM EST
    Though the funny thing is no one can name a person who has had the rights violated by this.
    Well the real beauty of it of course is that we have no idea since such info is classified a "state secret" right now. But we saw the excesses of the COINTELPRO (which I am sure you were/are a big fan of) and we can certainly assume that congress (well not this congress)will eventually investigate and find out how bad the current abuses are. If this thread is around in 30 years then I will be able to tell you I told you so.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 06:59:09 PM EST
    et al - Perhaps you forget that the Fourth Amendment has this to say:
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    Now, tell me what is "unreasonable" for the US to listen to calls from known/suspected international terrorists to persons in the US, or the reverse. Because that is what is being done. No one is listening to you talk dirty to your girl friend. So try to remember that word, "unreasonable." Because if the act is not "unreasonable," then no rights have neen violated, and no warrant is needed. SD writes:
    The hard core relgious fundamentalist [note restriction] turn their life over to their relgion.
    Really? Can you cite any personal experience you have in this matter? Have you made a study? Do you know any of the people you reference? Can you define "hardcore?" Can you define "fundamentalist?" I don't think you have actually known, or have studied, nor can you define. I think you are just making a a claim.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#18)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 07:23:11 PM EST
    PPJ you dont answer my questions so...

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#19)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 07:34:39 PM EST
    PPJ... You and I have no idea who or what they are listening to. Neither does Congress for that matter. If it was President Hillary running the show, would you be so trusting? I think not.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 07:36:29 PM EST
    BTW - do you have anything to say other than to attack me? I didn't think so.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 07:47:40 PM EST
    SD - How does it feel to be caught making a bunch of unprovable statements? Come on, prove it or dump it. Ernesto - You don't have to like what is going on to understand why it is necessary.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 07:52:13 PM EST
    You don't have to like what is going on to understand why it is necessary.
    Which is what I would say to you about the system of checks and balances that Bush is trying to avoid.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#23)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 08:03:07 PM EST
    They are provable i even gave a source. It is you who avoids, dances, parses, and lies. But that is well known by everyone here. How does it feel to be exposed for the nothing you are.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 08:08:40 PM EST
    SD - How does it feel to be caught making a bunch of unprovable statements? Come on, prove it or dump it.
    Actually, EDM supplied all the links.
    Ernesto - You don't have to like what is going on to understand why it is necessary.
    wesayso with no oversight is not an American value.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#25)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 08:12:27 PM EST
    PPJ's "religion" is nationalism. Unable to cope with life's uncertainty, unable to independently think for himself he attachs himself to a huge authority figure, the state. Belief in the absolute power and correctness of the stae makes him feel secure and safe and maybe even a little powerful. Its what many people who lack the ability to stand on their own and express their freedom as an individual do when confronted with uncertainty, moral ambiquity, or even complexity. They attach themselves to authority. They trade security for independence. The fascist leaders of the world over the last century have understood this better than anyone.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jun 18, 2006 at 08:14:11 PM EST
    BTW having been brought up Catholic and attending Catholic schools before Vatican II I understand the dynamics perfectly.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 05:49:51 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - The Fourth Amendment proves my point. Why do you bring up FISA? It doesn't trump the Constitution. Little bit of a strawman, eh?? SD - You made some rather strong global statements. I ask merely for some definitions and some proof. You obviously can't provide any, so you make even more global statements. What a demonstration of logic and debating ability. Ernesto - That link is called "opinion." There is a difference betweem "fact" and "opinion" you know.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 07:15:59 AM EST
    ppj i gave you a reference- read it debating you is a waste of time.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 07:27:49 AM EST
    Privacy is an essential component of liberty....there is no liberty without privacy. With the govt. ever reaching deeper and deeper into our financial records, medical records, communication, and correspondence....the future is looking bleak for lovers of liberty. Though I'm sure fans of the nanny state/police state/security through tyranny will be most pleased with the errosion of privacy.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Peaches on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 07:31:13 AM EST
    The Fourth Amendment proves my point. Why do you bring up FISA? It doesn't trump the Constitution. Little bit of a strawman, eh??
    Jim, I am not a awyer and neither are you, but you cannot be this dense. The interpretation of the fourth Amendment rests upon what is meant by the word Unreasonable as you pointed out. You have your interpretation of unresasonable. Others have another interpretation. However, FISA is an act of congress that has been determined to constitutional correct, so far. Of course, there are other congressional act, laws and judicial opinions on the what the framers of the constitution meant when they said unreasonable. It is up to you to link to these or call some support forward for your interpretation of unreasonable, not to expect us to take your word for it. I believe DA's point was that there are already provisions available to law enforcement and intelligence for monitoring potentail terrorists. We don't need to give the FBI, NSA nad others broad rights to listen to everyone. It violates my interpretation of what is unreasonable. In addition, I am not even sure it leads to better intelligence. I suspect it only muddies the water.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 10:36:40 AM EST
    soccerdad, Maybe instead of smaller words you should run a spell check or are you so offended by the word "religious" that you cannot spell properly it over & over again. So the point you are trying to make is that under certain "circumstances" some group of un-named individuals, which you call "religous (sic) fundies" gives up their "choice" by making a choice to believe in whatever "religous (sic) fundies" do. In addition to making that choice, their "independent" thinking is also given away, because they don't think like you believe they should... after all, they're "religous findies!" & this differs from say what an environmentalist or a socialist does how exactly... oh yeah, they aren't "religous" & it is merely those that are "religous" that do so. Nope no racism there, I mean if you replace "religous fundies" w/ Jew or Muslim it still stands & reflects your beliefs, right? Or is it only Christians that act this way? So I'd imagine that those who aren't "religous" are the ones who possess the ability to choose & think independently. Glad, I'm an atheist. So I guess that means, according to you, I can choose & think. I however was not slandering you, if you are content w/ making statements that are borderline racist, prepare for people to call you on it.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#34)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 10:53:02 AM EST
    Listen knucklehead I gave you a reference why dont you go read it instead of making crap up you clearly dont understand. Do you even understand what I mean when I say independent thinking? I didn't think so since it would be a novel concept for you. Let me give you an example out of my own life which is not fundamentalist but old time Catholicism. In catholic schools you were taught to obey a list of rules which had their basis in the 10 commandments. Failure to do so resulted in a sin and the possibility of eternal damnation. This was usually followed by a film strip of artisitc renditions of hell. To agree to obey those rules under those circumastance is not indenpendent thought but a reaction to fear. To blindly obey any set of rules whether from the government or a religion without understanding does not require indendent thought. A number of priests I had in HS however encouraged discussion, thought, and reflection as a way to gaining knowledge and understanding from within. Independent thinking requires critical analyis, thought and research. Doing something simply because someone told you to does not. In general the more fundamental the religion, whether Christian, Islamic, etc, the less independent the thinking. In general people who blindly turn their lives over to the government or religion value psychological safety over independent thought. History tells us that most fascist governments over the last 100 years have deep ties to religion. Its no accident.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 10:56:57 AM EST
    Care to name me a prominent Democrat that has been office since 2000 that didn't say the same thing about WMDs. That list won't include the last Democratic President & Administration, vice president, any minority leaders, any senior Senator, the last 3 heads of the party, your last 2 Presidential nominees, Rev's Sharpton & Jackson, etc. Not to mention the Intelligence agencies of Israel, Germany, England, France, India, Russia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia & China. Oh yeah Saddam never disagreed w/ the assessment & hindered the UN weapons inspectors at all. But I guess all of the above were just pawns used by Rove, right?

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 11:25:59 AM EST
    Listen knucklehead
    What is that another example of your "indenpendent (sic)" thought processes & finely developed argumentative skills. I could care less about your Catholic background, but I couldn't help but notice you didn't define it to just Catholics or yourself. Your only reference was to "religous (sic) fundies" & you never bothered to specify a particular religion, you insulted them all. So according to your background, being brought up Catholic, which I am assuming you mean a "religous (sic) fundie", means it didn't prevent your "indenpendent (sic)" thought processes from developing to the racist, over judgmental, illiterate spelling bee champion that you are. But then again in a way you have proven your own argument, after all, according to you, no one but a "religous (sic) fundie" could make such an incoherent & racist of a statement as you have. Your exacting "analyis (sic)" shows such an "Indendent (sic)" & "artisitc (sic)" yet persuasive "circumastance (sic)" to which I am at a definite disadvantage. I wish I could only be such an innovative & purely independent thinker as you. I mean, your Catholic background taught you this, so of course all religions or followers believe it too. I guess we can overlook that 1 of the first steps of all past dictators was to oust or limit the influence of the church on the public throughout, or to denounce religion at all & that some of the fiercest & most unrelenting opposition was from the church. After all, "Its (sic) no accident."

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#37)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 11:41:24 AM EST
    Care to name me a prominent Democrat that has been office since 2000 that didn't say the same thing about WMDs.
    I don't understand the point of this, except if it's coming from the perspective of a partisan hack. Look at the big picture, even if some Democrats were wrong about WMD, they didn't push for an invasion/occupation because (like Poppy Bush) they knew it would be a disaster. Back on topic. If you wanna go "the Dems do it, too" route then recall that Clinton's reaction to the Oklahoma City bombing was to attack civil liberties as well, but not as pervasively and stridently as the current administration. The Republicans in Congress correctly criticized Clinton's executive power grab at the time. Unfortunately, except for some token opposition, the Republicans in Congress are rolling over quietly this time around.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#38)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 11:44:40 AM EST
    Pmain- so your big complaint appears to be that because I try a sneak in a post at work without access to spell check then the whole argument is wrong. Well thats might deep of you. You obviously failed your course in logic but what else is new since your only objective is slander. I said that those who accept blindly do so without independent thought. If you have anything of more substance to talk about except my lack of access to spell check let me know. But i suspect that is already taxing your intellect.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Sailor on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 11:46:59 AM EST
    Care to name me a prominent Democrat
    care to stay on topic?

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 11:47:49 AM EST
    BTW many of those who begin to exercise independent thought in general leave their fundamentalist religions much in the same way I left the Catholic church. Fundamentalist religions are characterized by a narrow view from which deviation is not tolerated. For fundamentalist Christians its a literal interpretation of the bible.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 01:36:48 PM EST
    soccerdad, My only complaint is that you have made no point what-so-ever, wild racist generalizations about "religous (sic) fundies" yes, but no one actual point. You complain about the effects that religion has on the ability to think & yet admit you were raised religiously in that noted "religous (sic) fundie" way, called the Catholic Church. If I am to take your arguments seriously, that means I must completely ignore your arguments because of your background. However, if you background has no ill effects, then your premise is total sh!t. Making fun of your spelling is just plain funny to me & normally I wouldn't bother, because lord knows I am a horrible speller as well, I just have never seen someone misspell independent 2 different ways within one post & then manage to get it correct. Frankly you'd just be better off denouncing the Catholic Church or God or Jesus outright instead of hiding behind such generic & misspelled terminology that you do. Sure it's racist, ugly & irrational, but that hasn't stopped you so far now has it. I don't care about your past or your beliefs, I merely questioned the thinly veiled racism you were promoting in your screed. Let me guess, you consider yourself tolerant too, but that hasn't stopped you from call me names, implying Catholics are mindless followers & wasting your employers time reading & posting on blogs - a form of theft. Now get back to work, buy a dictionary & stop making wild unsubstantiated claims or at least make a valid point... someone should profit some way from you stealing money from your employer. You're wrong however, I aced all of my logic courses.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 01:48:08 PM EST
    sailor, I had quoted the post by The Dark Avenger & forgot to attach the quote to my post. Regardless of intent, you are right none-the-less, it was totally off topic & that was the 2nd point I was going to make to him - which I didn't. My bad. But in my defense, after suffering from several of your comments, totally off topic on another thread, I also really wanted to see how the other side lived & blazed ahead inspired by your example. It was not nearly as gratifying as you all make it out to be. Maybe next time I'll try posting by making no point what-so-ever, misspelling everything & using some thinly veiled racist comments, like dear old soccerdad. Though I am not sure I can, since I didn't a Catholic high school.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#44)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jun 19, 2006 at 05:51:59 PM EST
    Pmain - its impossible to discuss some one who can't understand clear english.
    racist generalizations
    - show me the quote
    You complain about the effects that religion has on the ability to think
    again thats not what I said, you have it backwards. People unwilling or unable to think for themsleves will be drawn to a fundamentalist religion or nationalism because its a way of avoiding uncertainty and ambiguity thereby feeling more secure. On one end of the spectrum you have fundamentalist religions that demand adherence to a set of dogma and discourage analysis,and self discovery. Towards the other end of the spectrum you other religions like the Buddhists who promote reflection and thought over many years. This has much less certainty, much more ambiguity, and doen't promote preformulated cookie cutter answers. Whats the psychology of why people would go one way ot the other or ignore religion all together? The rest of your tirade is just idiotic attacks that have no logic. You have no clue what we're trying to discuss. If you aced your logic courses you should go get your money back because you were robbed, or is it that I hit a nerve and all you can do is babble incoherent unfounded slanders. I gave you a reference to a book. Why dont you go read it, Wait it hasn't come out in a pop-up version yet. For you to tell me what to do on a personal level is the ultimate in hubris. I dont know your beliefs and frankly i dont care. Spirituality and religion should be a personal journey. Just dont enforce a particular version of christianity on everyone else and keep it the hell away from the government.

    Re: Whither Our Privacy Rights? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 08:04:52 AM EST
    SD.... I suggest that they have no clue as to the meaning of true freedom as it applies to individuals. If you are really so concerned about freedoms, why are you only complaining about NSA spying? There is so much more going on out there (mostly perpetuated by the left) that you should be concerned about. The latest example is (the Libs) requiring KFC to change their cooking oil! I know that might sound trite, but while your busy watching the Government (legally) try and get the bad guys, your own party is quietly stripping away your ability to 'chose' what you think is best for you. You want to complain about freedom being stripped away...you should start there! Pmain... Welcome! Good series of posts.... but as you can see, any logic here is met with comments like this: From Jondee...The only justifiable reason for mentioning Franklin and Bush in the same sentence is as a point of comparison for a Franklin stool sample. Which adds much to the conversation! And when you really get them frustrated... from SD... So KMA or .. Listen knucklehead and then this gem; ... BTW - do you have anything to say other than to attack me? I didn't think so. Followed up by this... You obviously failed your course in logic but what else is new since your only objective is slander. Ya gotta love it! Dark A... If you have a link to any quotes, that would be interesting, Pmain. Have you been paying attention at all? PPJ must have listed the quotes from all the libs at least 100 times!

    Whither Our Privacy Rights? | 42 comments (42 topical)