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Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo

By Jeralyn, Section Terror Detainees
Posted on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 11:36:51 PM EST
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I just finished watching "The Road to Guantanamo." It is as good as the reviews say. It opens June 23 in theaters in some cities and you should definitely see it. It's part documentary and part drama. It's very fast-paced and the scenes in Afghanistan and Guantanamo are very real -- and frightening. It also will make you very angry -- and drive home the realization that not all the detainees at Guantanamo can be the "worst of the worst" because many don't belong there at all. And yes, they were mistreated.

The four subjects of the film, Asif Iqbal, Ruhel Ahmed, Shafiq Rasul (pdf), and Monir Ali were British teens of Pakistani descent who went to Pakistan because one was getting married in an arranged marriage. Almost on a whim, they naviely decided to go to Afghanistan. The U.S. started its bombing campaign right afterwards. They get captured by the Northern Alliance and three of them get turned over to the Americans who won't believe they aren't al-Qaeda and send them to Guantanamo where they are held for two years without charges before being returned to England and finally freed. They appear in the film as narrators while actors re-create their ordeal. The fourth, Monir Ali, got separated and has not been heard from again, although he may be in a Pakistani prison.

The film won the Silver Bear Award at the Berlin film festival for best directing.

Since I'm not a film reviewer, you can read the plot here and I'll also quote from another review I found to be right on the mark:

"The Road to Guantanamo" is a terrifying and enlightening first-hand account of three British citizens of Pakistani descent who were held for two years without charges in the American military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba after they were captured by Northern Alliance soldiers in Afghanistan and handed over to the American military occupiers. Known as the "Tipton Three" (in reference to their home town in Britain), the three young men were eventually released and returned to Britain, although no formal charges were ever filed against them at any time during their ordeal.

Part documentary, part dramatization, the film chronicles the bewildering sequence of events that led from the initial quartet setting out from Tipton in the British Midlands for a wedding in Pakistan, to their naively crossing the border in response to a local Iman's call for men to travel to Afghanistan to give aid to the people just as the U.S. began its bombing campaign, to the eventual capture of three of them by the Northern Alliance and their imprisonment in Camp X-Ray and later at Camp Delta in Guantanamo. Co-Directors Michael Winterbottom and Mat Whitecross recount the harrowing and courageous journey of these young men, their friendships and shared tragedies, as they go from the safety of their small-town teenage existence to the heart of the "war on terror."

Courtesy of the studio I have 4 passes for readers to see The Road to Guantanamo, as well as 4 film posters. If you'd like one, send me an e-mail with your name, age (over 18 is fine) and address and I will pick 4 winners randomly. The studio will then mail you a ticket and poster.

Here's the schedule of cities the film is opening in June and July. Really, don't miss it.

Update: Raw Story interviewed Ruhel Ahmed, one of the detainees in the film.

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    Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo | 54 comments (54 topical)
    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jun 20, 2006 at 11:52:28 PM EST
    Everyone in Gitmo is innocent and accidentally found themselves in a firefight with Americans while trying to get married in Aghan/Iraq/Pakistan... If I wanted to see terror propoganda, I would: A. Join AQ B. Subscribe to Al Jazeera weekly C. Visit this site more often I am absolutely certain that some of those detained in Gitmo are innocent - that is unfortunate. War is hell, and far from A. perfect B. Politically correct C. Fair D. Always the right decision Righties on this site want to nuke the Arab world, and the Lefties want to join AQ. There is no intelligent discussion, only flame wars and insults. WE LIVE IN THE GREATEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD - THANK YOU BUSH, CLINTON, AND EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT WHO TRIED THEIR BEST. (THEY ALL KILLED PEOPLE, INNOCENT OR OTHERWISE). World peace is a great concept, but not realistic, at least if history has anything to say. There is always a winner and a loser - the U.S. is currently the big winner. If your hate for the big winner runs that deep, then leave. Every culture has shortcomings - before you crucify ours, think twice before you fill up your SUV, Truck, Car, or Hybrid (nice try).

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#2)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 12:08:11 AM EST
    Righties on this site want to nuke the Arab world, and the Lefties want to join AQ. There is no intelligent discussion, only flame wars and insults.
    Oh, well thanks for elevating the level of debate with that steaming pile of enlightenment.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#3)
    by bad Jim on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 02:07:02 AM EST
    Um. Forgive me if I skip this one. I think I already read the book. Besides, it's about abduction and torture. I don't have to watch chick flicks, I've got a pass from my doctor. Sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#4)
    by HK on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 02:10:50 AM EST
    the U.S. is currently the big winner
    Really? Because from where I'm standing, the U.S. is currently the big bully. The rest of your post is not even worth a response.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#5)
    by Avedon on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 03:12:58 AM EST
    I saw this when it aired here on C4 and I just wish everyone was going to see it. Maybe then they'd realize we have already lost the "war on terror".

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#6)
    by Johnny on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 04:35:09 AM EST
    hannityiscrazy, wow. Much like your advice says, if you don't like ithere leave. Save yourself the aggravation. I had a response all thought out, but i guess saying stuff like: "Sure innocent contractors get killed, war is hell, get over it, thank you Mr. Bush for making this the greatest country ever." But that would be wrong.
    Every culture has shortcomings
    *smirks*

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 05:58:09 AM EST
    From the post:
    It's part documentary and part drama.
    Are the parts labeled? I mean when the truth is being mangled for "dramatic effect," is there a sign on the screen saying, "This isn't the truth and is meant to make you angry?" If not, why not? Isn't mixing fact and fiction intellectually dishonest? Shouldn't this be called "propaganda?"

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#8)
    by aw on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 06:29:20 AM EST
    Isn't mixing fact and fiction intellectually dishonest?
    What's your favorite war movie, PPJ? Got one that isn't intellectually dishonest by your standards?

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#9)
    by marty on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 06:31:46 AM EST
    "Isn't mixing fact and fiction intellectually dishonest?" Yes, it is. "Shouldn't this be called "propaganda?" Yes, again. I presume you are just as opposed to the Bush Administration's manipulation of facts and their propaganda.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#10)
    by HK on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 06:33:06 AM EST
    I understand your sentiment, Jim, and am also irritated by 'true stories' that are sensationalised for dramatic effect. However, sometimes it is necessary for some parts of what is essentially a documentary to be dramatised. Sometimes you don't have all the pieces for a jigsaw puzzle, but you still get the gist of the complete picture. Often what those pieces of dramatisation are for is simply to fill in a 'hole' in the film which would jar the audience if left as it was. I don't know if that is the case here, but that's my guess. And in many cases, it would be a shame to leave a true story untold because of a couple of 'missing pieces'.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#11)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 06:36:55 AM EST
    Hannityiscrazy. That much we agree on. Jim, By your arguements, everything but an accounting record is propaganda. That may be true to a data purist. But just name one journalistic current events publication or broadcast that is purely objective. People can discern the facts from dramatization. It's a learned technique. Isn't mixing fact and fiction intellectually dishonest? It's not the mode, it's the message that is either honest or dishonest.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#13)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 07:23:51 AM EST
    ppj, instead of asking those questions why don't you go see for yourself? BTW
    Only 5% of the detainees were captured by United States forces. 86% of the detainees were arrested by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and turned over to United States custody.
    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#14)
    by cpinva on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 07:26:06 AM EST
    By your arguements, everything but an accounting record is propaganda.
    obviously, you've never heard of enron.
    Isn't mixing fact and fiction intellectually dishonest?
    why yes, it is. did ya hear the one about saddam and the weapons o' mass destruction?
    Everyone in Gitmo is innocent and accidentally found themselves in a firefight with Americans while trying to get married in Aghan/Iraq/Pakistan...
    if anyone that's been held, or is currently being held in gitmo, had ever actually been charged and found guilty of anything, your snark might bear some intellectual heft. of course, that isn't the case at all. gentlemen, do stay out of the grazing troll's way.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 08:56:35 AM EST
    The Road to Guantanamo My prediction? The same people that went to see "Fahrenheit 911" (as twisted and untrue as it was) will also go see this. The Bottom line? The left will continue to call America evil! This is news? cpinva... why yes, it is. did ya hear the one about saddam and the weapons o' mass destruction? Why yes... he used them on his own people...! EVERYONE knows that! Were you on another planet when that happened? Try educating yourself! The left is ruining the country The right is letting them do it We need a 3rd party!

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#16)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 09:09:15 AM EST
    as twisted and untrue as it was
    please provide links. personal attacks and opinions are not facts. Moore and Gore supplied facts, try to do the same.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 09:45:07 AM EST
    Jim, The site say it's part documentary, part dramatization -- NOT fictionalization. It's the same as when, on a show like Unsolved Mysteries, they use actors to reinact what happened. Or when CRIMEstoppers uses the same tactic. They are not fictionalizing the event, they are re-enacting, dramatizing it. It's a common device. It is NOT fictionalizing. BTW, did you catch FRONTLINE last night? If not, catch it online starting tomorrow (Thursday) at the PBS website. American political documentary film-making of the highest order.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 09:48:23 AM EST
    BB, If you don't see it, you can't say a thing about it. It's not a Michael Moore piece, so separate yourself from that bias. Also, as I advised Jim, check out that FRONTLINE documentary from last night. You can hear all the experts talk about the COMPLETE IRAQ FIASCO in their own words. Must see viewing for those who can handle the ugly realities.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 10:18:46 AM EST
    Let's discuss the underlying issue: Gitmo. I would take it that most readers here would like Gitmo shut ASAP. President Bush, at least on that topic, agrees with you. However, a few questions need to be answered first: 1. What do we do with the detainees? (Anticipating someone will say "Try them!", I'll go ahead and respond to that.) 2. How do we conduct a trial so as to prevent intelligence secrets/methods/ etc. from becoming public? 3. What do we do with those we judge to have committed a crime? Where do we put them? 4. What about those who are uneqivicoable threats who have yet to commit an actionable crime (or, more likely, the evidence is somewhat lacking)? 5. What about those individuals who would be returned to their countries and likely face torture or execution? From my perspective, Gitmo (and detention centers like it) are "necessary evils" given the circumstances. If someone has a better, more realistic proposal, I'm all ears and open to change.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#20)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 10:33:51 AM EST
    Croc, Try them is right. As Sailor linked above, only 5% were captured by Americans, the vast majority by others (many sold into captivity) and handed over to Americans. What methods and sources are going to be irreparably damaged by a fair trial, and which should be protected, is for a judicial body of legitimacy to determine. Not a scarcely detectable military tribunal. Those found guilty, um, uh, is this really hard to figure out what to do with them? You put them in prison!! There is no such thing as an "uneqivicoable" threat. No one can see the future. Err'ing on the side of freedom, I propose, would more likely do the opposite of what you fear. That is, it would make us safer and more just and humble. As for your last point, you keep those people here. If guilty and liable to be tortured or executed, I don't think you'd care what happens to him, so I don't quite get your point. For an innocent facing that future if returning home, they also, obviously, would be given asylum. Justice wins out in the long run, not hysteria and fear and compromising the principles of freedom.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#21)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 10:36:33 AM EST
    FREE THE PENDLETON 8! CLOSE GITMO! IMPEACH BUSH AND CHENEY!

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:02:58 AM EST
    President Bush, at least on that topic, agrees with you.
    no, he just says he does. actions speak louder than words and he hasn't done anything to shut it down.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:10:38 AM EST
    aw - Favorite war movie?? As opposed to DocuDramas? Thanks for making my point. marty - Yes. Can you show me a DocuDrama they have produced for in theater viewing? HK writes:
    However, sometimes it is necessary for some parts of what is essentially a documentary to be dramatised. Sometimes you don't have all the pieces for a jigsaw puzzle, but you still get the gist of the complete picture.
    No, what you get is the picture the producer wants you to get. HK, what you are doing is "justifying." Also known as "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions." Che - Nope, not at all. If they wanted to make a movie about the subject, and presented it as a movie, no problem. It is when they start mixing fact and fiction that the problem pops up. You write:
    It's not the mode, it's the message that is either honest or dishonest.
    The problem is this. Since the parts aren't identified, the viewer can't tell the difference. Sailor writes:
    ppj, instead of asking those questions why don't you go see for yourself?
    Why? I know the story line, the plot and the ending. Dadler writes:
    You can hear all the experts talk about the COMPLETE IRAQ FIASCO in their own words.
    ALL? Every last one of'em? No one was missed? No was left out who would disagree? Sounds like you just did your own DocuDrama. BTW - The post says: "It's part documentary and part drama." And if you want to say it is the same as "Unsolved Mysteries," thanks for proving my point. Sailor writes:
    Moore and Gore supplied facts, try to do the same.
    Problem is, a lot of folks disagree with those facts. In Moore's case he is being sued for millions over his "facts" by a disabled Iraqi war veteran. And many scientists disagree with Gore. Why are you trying to hijack the thread??

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:17:01 AM EST
    And many scientists disagree with Gore.
    And most of those are funded by EXXON

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:17:34 AM EST
    One thing to add, from the Raw Story update above:
    The release of Ahmed, Iqbal and Rasul in March 2004 came four months after the US Supreme Court agreed to hear the detainees' legal challenge to their indefinite imprisonment without charges, and less than three months before the court sided in their favor. "I think that was one of the reasons why we were released," Ahmed says. "It's not the reason, but it's probably one of the reasons. There was a lot of pressure on Tony Blair by the British MPs."
    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:35:39 AM EST
    SD - Are you and sailor trying to hijack the link?

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#27)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:38:08 AM EST
    Jim, Thanks for taking me hyper-literally, Greg Brady. Many people you've quoted were interviewd on FRONTLINE, like David Kay, like Maloof. Don't be such a smart ass. If you didn't see it, zip it until you do. As for the "Road to Gitmo", I shoulda watched the trailer, since it is indeed a straight dramatic film based on their story. My above references are moot and off base. My bad. Tho I think the real point is you assume it's pure fiction, an entirely embellished story meant to make them look great and us evil. I assume something slightly different.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:48:57 AM EST
    He's a waterboy, what he "thinks" is irrelevant. Damage control and spin. And Hiram Evans quotes.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#30)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 11:50:41 AM EST
    ppj- Funny that you regurgitate state propaganda here on a regular basis claiming it to be fact, while a film that may ask you to think or ask questions gets marked as a vehicle for lefty propaganda lies. Good art, which also covers political art, presents a truth that cannot be proved. As a certified pedant, you will never grasp that in art 2+2 can equal 5. Judging from Mr. Winterbottom cv he does not appear to be a propagandist. Is he an artist? That too is not provable as it is subjective. Propaganda is the opposite of art. It demands closure in order to lock down its didactic message. Art has no closure. It tantalizes its audience like a ripe peach seemingly within reach but not graspable. Good political art encourages thinking and asks questions. Propaganda shuts down thinking replacing it with programed slogans. It is most often a tool of those in power not those trying to subvert the status quo. Sometimes propaganda pieces can transcend and become art, but only after its didactic message is obscured and made irrelevant by the passage of time.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 12:00:49 PM EST
    "Saving Private Ryan", to be relatively recent, was certainly based on the reality of Normandy and a true story of getting a last living brother home, with large doses of fiction added, and all entirely dramatic. But it was advertised as putting you right there in the carnage, more real than ever. And I know PPJ dug that film, and had no problem with the fictional parts of it. Even tho this film says it is BASED on a true story, and it's not trying to hide that, that's not enough for him. We all have our paradigms, his are showing here, just like mine do when my pants are too tight. Ahem.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 12:17:38 PM EST
    ppj, the trifling troll

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#33)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 12:28:25 PM EST
    Problem is, a lot of folks disagree with those facts. In Moore's case he is being sued for millions over his "facts" by a disabled Iraqi war veteran.
    diagreeing with facts is denying reality. and the vet is suing about a juxtaposition of images, not a denial of facts.
    Why? I know the story line, the plot and the ending.
    just like a wrongwinger to rail against a movie ... they've never seen.
    The left will continue to call America evil!
    just like a wrongwinger to confuse bush with America. I don't really think bush is evil, I think he is incompetent, a proven liar, disengaged, and incurious.
    SD - Are you and sailor trying to hijack the link?
    Just like a wrongwinger to project their own motives on others.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 01:52:42 PM EST
    Sailor - The claim is that Moore used images to show a "fact." Quit parsing. It doesn't become you. Dark Avenger - Marty and I were speaking of the current administration. But you knew that. Squeaky - If you want to claim that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, be my guest. And I wouldn't disagree if you spec art. However, your MS math teacher will give you an F. Pedant? Please quit talking about Dark Avenger. Dadler - I have no problem with any film that says it is based on a true story. I do have trouble with documentary dramas because the inflection is that it is true. A huge difference, film writer. Then you write:
    As for the "Road to Gitmo", I shoulda watched the trailer, since it is indeed a straight dramatic film based on their story.
    Then the movie review is wrong?
    Part documentary, part dramatization, the film chronicles the... "The Road to Guantanamo" is directed in a cinema verite style that brilliantly mixes interviews from the Tipton Three with dramatic reenactments of the events that beset them including graphic depiction of prisoner abuse at Camp X-Ray and Camp Delta
    bigunit12 - Your talents astound and astonish us all.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#36)
    by HK on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 02:08:38 PM EST
    HK, what you are doing is "justifying." Also known as "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
    No, Jim, what I am doing is "explaining". I work as a writer. Part of the work I do is writing scenarios used in training police officers in the UK. These have to cover real life issues that officers may be called to deal with but must be fictitious due to confidentiality issues. They are meticulously researched for three reasons: 1. I take pride in my work. 2. If they are unrealistic I will not get hired again. 3. My 'audience' has vastly more experience on the topics than me, so I have to match their experience with knowledge. When working with true stories, good writers are true to the essence of the events. Embellishment is not usually necessary as real life is by its very nature compelling. If it wasn't, none of us would get up in the morning. I don't know anything about this film other than what I have read here, but I can guarentee that every minute you see on the screen is the product of many hours of interviews and other such research. And before you challenge me on that, there is a very simple logic behind this assertion: there are many more writers than there are jobs for writers in the world. Only those with talent and who are prepared to pull their weight get the gigs. Simple as.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#37)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 02:08:51 PM EST
    Sailor - The claim is that Moore used images to show a "fact."
    Please try to stay on topic and quit misrepresenting what other people say.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#38)
    by Dadler on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 02:21:00 PM EST
    Jim, And still we disagree. It's a film based on a true story, that's how they're describing it and putting it out there. They are being completely up-front about it. Based on a true story. Doubt that it's the truth all you want, but that has nothing to do with the film-makers saying exactly what the film is.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 02:28:19 PM EST
    There's no way you can do reenactments without it automatically becoming "drama". We have a track record of not approving of any criticism directed toward the war from any quarter, but we cant bring ourselves to come out and say it, so we're reduced to wriggling, parsing and nit-picking. Quite a spectacle.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 02:52:03 PM EST
    Sailor... Moore and Gore supplied facts, try to do the same. He is being sued for using a soldier's story and tried to imply (by twisting the facts..as he usually does)that the soldier was anti war & anti Bush! He LIED and will now pay. That's good enough for me!

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#41)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 03:10:00 PM EST
    He is being sued for using a soldier's story and tried to imply (by twisting the facts..as he usually does)that the soldier was anti war & anti Bush!
    Did you see the movie? Thought not. Can you point out where what moore said was untrue? Thought not. If they can swiftboat Dan Rather over a typeface, (which BTW, was on my father's IBM Selectric during that era), imagine what they would do to Moore if they actually found something that wasn't true. The best they could come up with was someone not liking the way he was portrayed in a documentary. Welcome to the real world.
    He LIED and will now pay.
    don't want to wait for the outcome of the trial? Not even depos and discovery?

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 03:46:00 PM EST
    BB-Nice one. Trolls love to hijack, with wingnuttia echochamber BS. Anyone interested in the bogus lawsuit by Sgt. William Damon here is the scoop. At best he is a victim of Bush's VA cuts and needs money. At worst he is a tool of BB and his Bushlicker pals.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#44)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 04:00:11 PM EST
    OT for BB- Bet you really cried a puddle when this one against Moore was thrown out of court.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 05:20:53 PM EST
    HK - What you do in your work, and the care you take, has nothing to do with this DocuDrama. By and large DocuDramas are political devices designed to further someone's point of view. I have no doubt that this the case here.
    but I can guarentee that every minute you see on the screen is the product of many hours of interviews and other such research.
    And since you have no idea as to the care, accuracy, etc., of this movie, what you are doing is justifying. And the fact that you claim that writers are plentiful only means that they will be more willing to be pressured than if they were in short supply. Dadler - We have the description in the post and we have the description in the linked to movie review. Who you gonna believe? Sailor - I merely described what I understand the suit was about. BTW - You start talking about RatherGate and you think you are on topic? Well duhhhhh.. BTW - Do you have the Selectric? Rather and Mapes would probably pay big bucks for... Oh, you don't? But you remember... Okay. Sure. Experts on typography said the memos appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not available at the time. Squeaky - Sorry to hear that. I read the KOS piece and must say that the context shows that the movie clip was misleading. I think it clearly demos Moore used the interview to try and claim the soldier agreed with something he did not. Unfortunately, I was not the judge. Unfortunately for you, you were not the SP in the Mrs. Wilson tempest. BTW - Show us the cuts. Oh wait, they aren't cuts, they just aren't the increases the Demos pretend to want..
    The Republican majority of the House Budget Committee is reducing President Bush's proposed budget by about $844 million in health care and an additional $463 million in benefit programs including disability compensation
    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#46)
    by Sailor on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 06:27:02 PM EST
    Sailor - I merely described what I understand the suit was about.
    IOW, you don't know because you and BB haven't bothered to see the movies and have no idea what the lawsuit was about. If you don't know what the suit was about and you still attack people about it, I would think your 'I understand' is woefully and wilfully ignorant of the circumstances. The next time you fellows want to criticise something, I would suggest you actually view it first. Oh, wait, you guys don't have to actually see the movies/facts/truth, you just know that they are nothing you believe in. Nice job fellas for proving the main point. You endorsed sending innocent folks to gitmo because you just believe they are guilty. No facts, no willingness to accept facts, just a belief that substitutes for facts. When you actually watch the movies, then you can comment on them. Until you are willing to watch them, don't bother.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 08:57:24 PM EST
    Dark Avenger and Sailor The works of Michael Moore speak for themselves. Poorly and in bad taste, but they speak: Sailor - No, I didn't see the movie. To repeat myself, I know the plot and the ending... You write:
    If you don't know what the suit was about and you still attack people about it, I would think your 'I understand' is woefully and wilfully ignorant of the circumstances
    Not to be too picky, but my comment was about the suit.
    In Moore's case he is being sued for millions over his "facts" by a disabled Iraqi war veteran.
    I think that is an accurate summary of the suit. So if you would, please see if you can grasp this one point. MY COMMENT WAS ABOUT THE SUIT, NOT THE MOVIE. Now, would you like a comment about the movie? It is BS and it sucks.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 21, 2006 at 09:19:23 PM EST
    It just opened in the coldest place in the U.S: Coulter's Snatch Minn. They had to restart the projection machine a couple of times after it froze up.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#51)
    by HK on Thu Jun 22, 2006 at 03:51:52 AM EST
    the fact that you claim that writers are plentiful only means that they will be more willing to be pressured than if they were in short supply
    Jim, that isn't even remotely logical. The fact that writers are plentiful means that only the ones who do a good job and have the good luck to get the jobs in the first place get anywhere. The fact that writers are plentiful raises the bar. If you wanted your house renovating, would you choose a cheap but bad builder so that you could get him to do what you want instead of a more expensive but better builder who would give you his professional advice, even if it was contrary to yours? Equally, writers are part of a team and while they often write to a brief, they are required to be professional in their input. As far as this film goes, they have not chosen a neutral subject and tried to put a political slant on it; they have chosen a subject that is already politically loaded. There is nothing dishonest about that.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#52)
    by Avedon on Thu Jun 22, 2006 at 04:45:38 AM EST
    Not as good as seeing it on the big screen, but if you want to know what you're arguing about, you can watch it .

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jun 22, 2006 at 07:18:34 AM EST
    HK writes:
    The fact that writers are plentiful raises the bar.
    We begin at two different points. I begin with the belief that those who made/produced the movie had a point of view that was anti-war and anti-US. Any writer on the project, who didn't know and who didn't fit that model before they were hired, had to figure it out very quickly. Since, according to you, writers are plentiful and jobs are scarce, the economic pressure would be to conform. You write:
    ...they have chosen a subject that is already politically loaded. There is nothing dishonest about that.
    True. It is not that I don't understand their intent. I do. So they are not "dishonest" in that context. It is their conclusions that are inaccurate. How about, "A fictionalized movie about things we think happened from our point of view?" Avedon - To repeat myself, I know the story, I know the plot and I know the ending. Why bother??

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#54)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 22, 2006 at 07:57:04 AM EST
    the head of any good propaganda unit only needs to hear what fits his agenda, whether its based in reality or not really doesn't matter.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 22, 2006 at 09:37:53 AM EST
    Sailor.... you don't know because you and BB haven't bothered to see the movies and have no idea what the lawsuit was about. As PPJ already pointed out... I didn't need to see the movie to know what the suit was about. I heard the soldiers comment about it and that's good enough. Moore tried to imply something that just wasn't true... PERIOD! When you actually watch the movies, then you can comment on them. Until you are willing to watch them, don't bother. Does that hold true for you too? Not being able to comment on something you haven't seen? OK...cool. Having never been to Gitmo or Iraq...we can all expect you to shut up now? I have no desire to see this anti-US propoganda, and I wouldn't give Moore 2 cents if he was starving to death anyway! As far as I'm concerned, he's guilty of treason.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#57)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 22, 2006 at 01:17:21 PM EST
    michael moore is truly one of the greatest americans of all time, up there with washington and lincoln, he deserves the highest civilian honors that can be bestowed on such a brave and heroic american.but, in the eyes of the republicans, he did the one unpardonable sin. he told the truth!!! that is why trolls like ppj and bb hate him, and love faux news(and the fact that o'reilly gets them sexually excited)

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#58)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 22, 2006 at 01:44:24 PM EST
    The works of Michael Moore speak for themselves. Poorly and in bad taste,
    since you don't watch his movies all you know is what your fearful leaders have told you about him.
    I begin with the belief that those who made/produced the movie had a point of view that was anti-war and anti-US.
    well, then, no reason to actually look or think for yourself. This really explains a lot about your behavior on this site.

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Thu Jun 22, 2006 at 01:46:45 PM EST
    (and the fact that o'reilly gets them sexually excited
    It seems as if codpiece also has a big homoerotic pull as well.
    Perhaps someone can explain to me the strange male attraction to George W. Bush. I have never encountered anything quite like it. From day one, DC nerds like Klein have had massive man-crushes on Junior, describing him as "loose-hipped" and "swaggering" and showing all manner of strange obsession with his masculine body language.... Seriously, this has been a huge problem since the beginning of the Bush administration. And it tracks quite handily with the opposite reactions among the chattering geeks during the Clinton years. Bubba was female friendly (if you know what I mean) and was the object of a great deal of derisive coverage for his tomcat vibe by the priggish DC press. What worked in his favor out in the country -- his smarts 'n sexual charisma -- made the Washington media squirm like a bunch of little old ladies caught by accident at a Marilyn Manson concert. And then along came the codpiece and they all fell in love. Wassup with that?
    digby

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 22, 2006 at 02:02:13 PM EST
    I could see BB and PPj standing in front of a mirror, like Robert Deniro in Taxi Driver, practicing saying, "This is a no spin zone, this is a no spin zone"

    Re: Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 09:32:34 AM EST
    Bigunit... he told the truth!!! No...see.. that's the problem... he didn't tell the truth!

    Film Opening: The Road to Guantanamo | 54 comments (54 topical)