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Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences

This is just crazy. A New Orleans judge sentenced three people who looted liquor from a grocery store after Hurrican Katrina to 15 years in prison, saying he wanted to send a message.

They were convicted of attempting to leave the grocery with 27 bottles of liquor and wine, six cases of beer and one case of wine coolers, six days after Katrina made landfall. Little, McGowen and Pearson each testified that they were not looting, but they offered conflicting accounts of matters such as who drove to the store.

The looting law under which they were convicted had been in effect for two weeks. Compare their sentence to the year these men got for bribing a federal official in the aftermath of Katrina.

Kendrix and Nelson were charged in December with conspiracy to commit bribery of a federal official for allegedly making a deal to falsify debris removal documents after Hurricane Katrina.

....Prosecutors said Kendrix was working as a quality assurance representative for the U.S. Army Corp of Engineers at the Hintonville dumpsite in Perry County, Miss., when he allegedly accepted payments from Nelson, a debris removal subcontractor. Nelson was charged with paying Kendrix multiple bribes to create false load tickets for debris that Nelson never dumped at the Hintonville site.

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    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#1)
    by Steven Sanderson on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 01:19:30 AM EST
    15 years in prison is a pretty harsh sentence for stealing products that were likely unsalable and unsafe to consume because of health/sanitation considerations.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 05:40:18 AM EST
    This is just crazy. A New Orleans judge sentenced three people who looted liquor from a grocery store after Hurrican Katrina to 15 years in prison, saying he wanted to send a message.
    We need more judges like this guy and less like the loser that gave only one year for bribing. IMO Ray Nagin also needs to go to jail.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 05:42:29 AM EST
    I live in Hurricane Land so I have a slightly different perspective. Looters should be shot. I'd agree that we punish way too much behavior, but, prisons were built for looters. Back when I was a PD nothing drove me nuts quicker that the burgler's comment, "Hey, I'm not doing drugs." If you stripped all the junk off, we would still need to punish thieves. Theft = Evil; Theft + Violence = Big Evil. Theft in time of civil disorder? 15 years is about right. (And don't start the whole, "I needed it." This was a liquor store, not Whole Foods.)

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 06:05:44 AM EST
    This is just crazy.
    I'm assuming the above refers to looting liquor during a time of unprecedented disaster. Fifteen years, while quite strong, is within the bounds of reason - especially when the circumstances. In order for New Orleans to see a change for the better, a stronger grasp on the pervasive criminal mentality is necessary. This is but one small step.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 06:15:01 AM EST
    Crazy indeed. It appears some people have no clue of the severity of 15 years of chains and cages. 15 weeks seems excessive to me...15 years is madness.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 06:16:41 AM EST
    15 weeks seems excessive to me
    For breaking and entering into a personal business and stealing bottle of booze? How would you handle this situation?

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#7)
    by Johnny on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 06:59:41 AM EST
    I always get a good chuckel anytime an idiot judge uses the phrase: "Send a message". What message? How many thousands of "messages" have activist judges sent out? Why does undesireable behavior still occur? Why, after 10,000 years of "civilization", do "civilized" countries act all suprised when people respond adversely to adverse pressures? Apparently they didn't get the enlightenment memo... 15 years... Insane. Shorter sentences have been given to CEO's who, in the middle of massive financial troubles, bilked millions from thousands. 15 years... Insane. Shorter sentences have been given to soldiers convicted of killing POW's. I get the message! Kill a brown person, get a year! Steal a bottle of booze, get 15!

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 07:09:11 AM EST
    Why, after 10,000 years of "civilization", do "civilized" countries act all suprised when people respond adversely to adverse pressures? Apparently they didn't get the enlightenment memo...
    Are you claiming here that if we stop punishing criminals for their antisocial behavior, crime will soon cease to exist as "adverse pressures" are no longer exerted? Please advise.
    Shorter sentences have been given to CEO's who, in the middle of massive financial troubles, bilked millions from thousands.
    I agree. I think this is a great argument for longer sentances for them, instead of shorter sentences for the looters in question.
    Shorter sentences have been given to soldiers convicted of killing POW's.
    This I don't know about. Have any links to stories of American soldiers being found guilty of killing POWs and getting less than 15 years in the brig (you, after all, said "convicted" so I won't accept "they always go unpunished!!!!!") I won't be holding my breath for those sources.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#9)
    by Johnny on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 07:25:29 AM EST
    Are you claiming here that if we stop punishing criminals for their antisocial behavior, crime will soon cease to exist as "adverse pressures" are no longer exerted? Please advise.
    Absolutely not, and for you to say that is disingenuous at best. Want my advice? Take a tip from engineers troubleshooting faulty systems (which is what civilation is) and seek a root cause.
    I agree. I think this is a great argument for longer sentances for them, instead of shorter sentences for the looters in question.
    Are you saying 200 dollars (give or take) of booze is worth 15 years? cuz if that's true, than Kenny Boy shoulda received multiple life sentences. And guess what? The exact same crimes will happen again and again, much to the chagrin of those who beleive that unwanted behavior can be legislated away (one of four great failings of civilization).
    This I don't know about. Have any links to stories of American soldiers being found guilty of killing POWs and getting less than 15 years in the brig (you, after all, said "convicted" so I won't accept "they always go unpunished!!!!!") I won't be holding my breath for those sources.
    I said nothing about "they always go unpunished, again, you are mentioning what you wish I had said, versus what I did say. I mentioned nothing about Americans. You only wish I did. Sorry croc, since I do not believe that a. unwanted behavior can be legislated away, b. that unwanted behavior can be warned away, c. that the civilized method of accumulating wealth is almost 100% responsible for crime as we know it, and d. that next hurricane hits NOLA, looting will go on, despite this activist judges "message", I cannot take your bait. 15 years... insane.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 07:36:22 AM EST
    I'm not at all convinced that unwanted behavior can be legislated away. I also don't believe the adult criminal justice system should attempt rehabilitation. We sentence people, whether to prison or probation, community service or restitution, to punish them for their antisocial behavior. In my view, the more antisocial, the more punitive we should be. The post-Katrina conditions dictated, to some extent, the necessity for self-preservation. For this reason, I wouldn't support any charges being filed against those who looted food or clothing. But to those who were taking TV's from the Wal-Mart or liquor from the small shops around the city, they don't deserve anything but our greatest scorn. When their city was in it's most dire straits, these thugs taking full advantage. Considering the circumstances in New Orleans, I feel this sentence is approriate. Would have issued a similar punishment? Probably not.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 07:38:30 AM EST
    Croc, Please explain what aggravating circumstances exist, in regards to these offenders, to merit the statutory maximum of 15 years in prison besides the fact that these offenders are the first to be sentenced under the amended law (i.e. sending a message).

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 07:48:24 AM EST
    I don't feel aggrevating circumstances need exist. The judge had the statuory freedom to sentence up to 15 years and chose to do so. Had you been the judge, to what term would you have sentenced them?

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:31:19 AM EST
    1. If MIDad really was a PD, it's good news he is not any longer. A defendant doesn't need two prosecutors on the case. 2. Is this another example of the government demonstrating empathy? Is it any wonder the states with the death penalty have higher murder rates? 3. The judge, per SCOTUS, must state aggravating circumstances, and it is unlikely "sending a message" is one of them. 4. The article doesn't say they did any "breaking and entering." Posters are assuming that. For all we know, the door was wide open and they entered to buy something. If so, that would make it a petty theft and not even a burglary.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:38:56 AM EST
    I don't feel aggrevating circumstances need exist.
    An appellate court may not agree with this claim.
    Had you been the judge, to what term would you have sentenced them?
    Since the minimum for these offenses is 3 years in prison, somewhere between 3 and 15 years. However, without the pre-sentencing report disclosing prior criminal histories and other facts that may be pertinent to sentencing, I don't know exactly how much of a prison term I would have given them. Unless you are privy to this information, claiming that you feel the sentence is appropriate based on the facts from the article is as irresponsible as a judge giving the statutory maximum sentence "to set an example". If the sole reason for the judge to sentence these offenders to the statutory maximum was "to set an example", shame on him.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:43:57 AM EST
    For breaking and entering into a personal business and stealing bottle of booze?
    During one of the worst natural disasters in our history...worth noting.
    How would you handle this situation?
    200 hours community service rebuilding New Orleans would better serve all.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#16)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:48:07 AM EST
    200 hours community service rebuilding New Orleans would better serve all.
    Ah, I hear a voice of reason.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:51:58 AM EST
    Becuase I don't know the other circumstances of the case, I find it hard to criticize the judge for sentencing this way. PN:
    3. The judge, per SCOTUS, must state aggravating circumstances, and it is unlikely "sending a message" is one of them.
    The judge needs aggrevating circumstances to sentence a defendant within the statuory limits?
    4. The article doesn't say they did any "breaking and entering." Posters are assuming that. For all we know, the door was wide open and they entered to buy something. If so, that would make it a petty theft and not even a burglary.
    Actually, we can safely assume the store was closed. This case clearly falls within the Louisiana looting law...
    §62.5. Looting A. Looting is the intentional entry by a person without authorization into any dwelling or other structure belonging to another and used in whole or in part as a home or place of abode by a person, or any structure belonging to another and used in whole or in part as a place of business, or any vehicle, watercraft, building, plant, establishment, or other structure, movable or immovable, in which normal security of property is not present by virtue of a hurricane, flood, fire, act of God, or force majeure of any kind, or by virtue of a riot, mob, or other human agency, and the obtaining or exerting control over or damaging or removing property of the owner. B. Whoever commits the crime of looting shall be fined not more than ten thousand dollars or imprisoned at hard labor for not more than fifteen years, or both. C. Whoever commits the crime of looting during the existence of a state of emergency, which has been declared pursuant to law by the governor or the chief executive officer of any parish, when the defendant knew or should have known that a declaration of emergency existed may be fined not less than five thousand dollars nor more than ten thousand dollars and shall be imprisoned at hard labor for not less than three years nor more than fifteen years without benefit of probation, parole, or suspension of sentence.


    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#18)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:53:51 AM EST
    Kdog - Why is this:
    During one of the worst natural disasters in our history
    worth noting here? Remember, we are talking about alcohol (and quite a bit of it) not bread, canned food, or other necessitites.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 08:57:05 AM EST
    if it would have been 5 white frat boys who did it. they would have got probation

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:03:39 AM EST
    TL. will the sentence be appealed?

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:05:38 AM EST
    The judge needs aggrevating circumstances to sentence a defendant within the statuory limits?
    There is still some debate on this. See: Blakely Basics
    Since the 1970s, sentencing has undergone a political and legal revolution; it has been transformed from a field once rightly accused of being "lawless" to one that is now replete with law. Legislatures and sentencing commissions have developed various "structured" or "guideline" systems to govern sentencing in state and federal courts, and the evolution of modern sentencing reforms is one of the most dynamic and interesting stories in American legal history. On June 24, 2004, the sentencing reform story was forever changed when an earthquake in the form of the Supreme Court's decision in Blakely v. Washington struck the sentencing landscape. Though technically only declaring unconstitutional one portion of one state's sentencing guideline system, Justice Antonin Scalia's dramatic opinion for the Court in Blakely suggests that any and every fact which increases a defendant's effective maximum sentence must be found by a jury beyond a reasonable doubt or admitted by the defendant. In other words, Blakely suggests the Constitution does not permit judges to find facts which increase applicable sentencing ranges, even though nearly all sentencing reforms of the past two decades have made judges central and essential fact-finders in the application of sentencing laws. Consequently, the ramifications of Blakely for modern guideline sentencing reforms -- indeed, for the entire criminal justice system -- cannot be overstated.
    Note that you can't blame liberal activist judges for this one.
    Actually, we can safely assume the store was closed. This case clearly falls within the Louisiana looting law...
    Based on the article can we safely ASSUME they are the ones who opened the door? Can you state beyond a reasonable doubt that someone else didn't do that previously? Granted, they probably did, but we cannot come to that conclusion based on the article. The point being this could be something more like a petty theft, which would make 15 years even more excessive.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:06:36 AM EST
    TL, I missed the appeal on the first reading.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:14:41 AM EST
    "Back when I was a PD..." To think that a person had been a pd (public defender) and thinks that for stealing from a liquor store a person deserves 15 years is sad and perhaps indicative of what a punitive society we live in. Of course people are not supposed to steal but one small indication of how civilized we are should be whether we punish people in proportion to the crime. 15 years for a few cases of beer anfd some wine and whiskey is obviously ... something that is hard to comprehend. Perhaps this Judge is the son or daughter of the infamous Texas Judge in the late sixties who gave 99 years for three joints. What is so pathetic in some of the responses here is the unchecked sense of righteousness that people invoke to justify such sentences. I have defended capital cases where there is less hatred and righteousness displayed. I can at least understand where the eye for an eye mentality comes from in those cases but the ideas invoked here are far beyond that. Hell, an eye for eye here would only call for something like double the whiskey, beer, and wine but 15 years?

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:17:01 AM EST
    TL also has a lot on Blakely.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:21:41 AM EST
    Perhaps this Judge is the son or daughter of the infamous Texas Judge
    No but here follows a little about him.
    Liljeberg's campaign themes include integrity, dedication and public safety. He says his combined experience as an assistant district attorney, businessman and civil attorney -- along with his even temperament -- better qualify him for the judgeship. Hand counters that he promises to be a "full-time" judge without outside business "distractions" -- a reference to Liljeberg's reportedly large real estate holdings. Hand also pledges to make his taxes public. Liljeberg says that he, too, will be a full-time judge and that his business holdings will not distract him from his work as a judge.
    I wonder if his holdings included liqour stores?

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:22:34 AM EST
    For those who think 15 yrs is a reasohnable sentence. You are out of your freakin' mind. do you hear what you are saying? really, think about it. ruining someone's life for stealing booze. god damn, how many of you have stolen a six pack from a seven eleven. MURDERERS get less time. jeezus.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#27)
    by Patrick on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:23:54 AM EST
    Note that you can't blame liberal activist judges for this one.
    No, but we can blame t-chris..

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:27:59 AM EST
    Hey, croc-choda, you ask 'how much time do you think is warranted?' (paraphrasing), as if 15 years is a reasonable sentence and others must defend a shorter one. how about 1 year. that seems a hell of lot more reasonable....Unless you have some stock in the prison industry. no wonder our jails are overcrowding.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#29)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 09:34:25 AM EST
    The message is that looting during a national catastrophe will be severely punished. Since many do not have sufficient superego controls to not do this, external controls are needed. Looting during disasters encourages people to be vigilantes, to not evacuate their homes when needed, and to feel overwhelmed in difficult times. Anything that increases obedience to the rule of law during times of disaster is such a public good that it should trump ordinary considerations about "public service" or the like.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 10:01:23 AM EST
    croc..I think it's worth noting as an extenuating circumstance. If Katrina did not hit, I have no doubt the liquor store would not have been looted. Does not excuse the looting, but it's worth taking into account the overall scene on the streets of N.O. at the time. It was chaos. The convicted persons here are obviously knuckleheads...but 15 years is just madness anyway you slice it.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#31)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 10:07:52 AM EST
    You can rape, maim, kill, terrorize on a daily basis, stalk, torture, kidnap...and get MUCH LESS THAN FIFTEEN YEARS. This is a personal reactionary upchuck by this judge, and oughtta be dealt with as such. Glad I was a dysfunctional kleptomaniac as a kid and not today. Man, I could steal any small thing I could fit on my person or tuck in my Peachee folder (we swiped many a porn mag that way). Though one time when I was twelve or thirteen, on an occasion when I wasn't pocketing anything, I was mistaken for an armed robber and got a shotgun barrell put against my back by a very nervous cop. But I mean, hey, I had long hair and a Zeppelin t-shirt and looked older, and I'd stolen stuff before. I f*cking deserved it. Madness.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#32)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 10:21:45 AM EST
    No more so than when a lenient judge gives someone the bare minimum because they don't want to send any messages. Which is, of course, idiotic. Sending messages is not what the law is about. Punishing people for their cirmes is all it should ever be about. But I do wonder how those who are crying for these people would have felt had it been their liquor store, or their home, that had been looted. I also wonder if these people put themselevs in risk, and therefore any potential rescuers also in risk, when they undertook this little caper.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#33)
    by Joe Bob on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 10:26:51 AM EST
    Let's look at the cost/benefit to society this way: 3 looters x 15 years x $25,000 incarceration costs per looter per year = $1.125million. Worth it or not worth it? If you ask me, it's not. I can think of many better ways to spend a million bucks. Personally, I really like the community service idea. Considering how much essential work remain to be done in New Orleans, the looters could be put towards a useful purpose instead of some BS make-work job. Weighing the value of the items stolen versus the value of their labor in a cleanup effort, society could actually come out ahead on the deal...true restorative justice.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#34)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 10:26:53 AM EST
    Woman gets 27 months for $1.5 million embezzlement. Well, I'm trying to make sense of a sentence of 15 yrs for stealing six cases of beer and some wine coolers.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#35)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 10:57:21 AM EST
    Considering how feckless, stupid, and short-sighted these morons are, the idea of deterring them seems hopeless. Unless there is some scheme of handcuffing a cop to each of these clowns 24-7. And that is likely true of any life forms more or less genetically similar, say, out to third cousins. But, dumb as they are, no amount of sentence, long or short, will cause them to "learn their lesson", and so the question then arises how to protect society from them. I agree that there are worse crimes which get less time, but that doesn't mean shortening these, only rationalizing the calculus for devising sentences. I certainly wouldn't compare these to some cases where judges have not sent, say, child molesters to jail for some cockamamie reason. I'd compare the statutory sentencing for comparable crimes in different jurisdictions. One poster made a good point: The NOPD (Not Our Problem, Dude) was incapable of protecting property which meant owners of plutocratic luxury items like furniture in apartments or crummy little shacks were reluctant to leave their sole non-portable possessions to the looters, making rescuing and evacuation more difficult and dangerous for them and for the rescuers. In other words, there is some percentage of the Katrina death toll directly attributable to the eminently correct and reasonable presumption that to leave one's property was to lose it to the looters. This is a completely different situation than when no natural disaster is part of the mix.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#36)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 11:05:49 AM EST
    The message is that looting during a national catastrophe will be severely punished. Wrong. The real message is that if you are poor and loot you get 15 years. If you are a monied contractor and loot, you get one year.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#37)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 11:14:48 AM EST
    R.A., Poor people HAD NOWHERE TO GO. That was the first and foremost reason they were stuck. If you think the majority cared more about their meager possessions than their lives, well, what is there to say?

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#38)
    by BigTex on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 11:37:42 AM EST
    It's about time that someone took strong measures to address the chaos that is NO in the wake of Katrina. Contrary to popular belief, the looting didn't take place because of the attempt to secure necessities. The looting took place because Nagan issued an order to LEO not to stop the looting. Once that happened, all hell broke loose. Had they been looting food, then this would be a different matter. For that matter even clothing, basic hygine supplies, or sunscreen would have been a different matter, those are items that would help sustain life or prevent injury. Booze doesn't fall into one of those categories. What's more, before the looting took place, LEO was going into the stores and commendering food to give to the people in need. The situation was being taken care of until the lawlessness broke out. Compaire the response from Katrina to Rita. Looters tried to loot back home. LEO established a makeshift prison on the spot, and no more looting. Mob mentality wasn't allowed to set in. Lawlessness wasn't allowed to ensue. This is a case of someone trying to stop looting. If the mayor abdicates his duties it falls on the courts to do what they can to address the situation. The judge wasn't being an activist judge here, he changed no law from the bench. All he did was throw the book at someone. That's commendable in this case because something has to be done to address the situaion.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#39)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 11:38:48 AM EST
    Hey, Dad. Some of them said so. They did have someplace to go. They waited too long. They had some warning,even if Nagin was late to the party on this. Each drowned car represents one driver and at least three passengers who could have gotten out. The point is, Dad, that the evacuation has to start before the flood. Not after. Try to stay with me, here. After the streets are flooded, movement is difficult. Got that picture? Good. Now. How do we avoid that? Here's where it gets difficult to comprehend. You leave before the flood. In other words, you leave before anything is obviously wrong. You leave before anything is obviously wrong and before, in this case, the mayor says you should. Ever hear of house-sitting? It's common in third world countries, and, according to people I know in New Orleans, New Orleans. The reason is that homes whose residents are gone for several days are routinely burgled. So, if you live in a lousy neighborhood, and you know you'll never get a house sitter because anybody with a lick of sense--the only kind you'd ask to watch the house--is going, too, what are your choices? It is laughable to think that poor people aren't attached to their poor goods. That's a wealthy person's view. The poor are without options, and insurance, and the likelihood of recovering from a robbery is slight. Your sofa may be crummy, but if it's gone, it'll be a cold day in hell before you get another one, and you know it. That sort of thing affects the attitude.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#40)
    by Kitt on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 11:48:48 AM EST
    Pearson's attorney, Bruce Netterville, said the sentence and conviction would be appealed. "We believe the sentence is excessive," said Netterville. Attorneys for the other defendants agreed.


    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#41)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 12:37:13 PM EST
    Looters given 15-year terms
    Little, McGowen and Pearson each testified that they were not looting, but they offered conflicting accounts of matters such as who drove to the store. Pearson, who had a clean criminal history, testified he went to the store to get insulin for his ailing mother, who stayed home through the storm and was running low on her medication. Deputies later confirmed Pearson's story and delivered the insulin to his mother, according to testimony. Released from jail on bond, Little was later hired by the same store she was accused of looting, the store manager testified.


    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#42)
    by Patrick on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 12:47:36 PM EST
    If they had no prior criminal history the sentence seems pretty long. However, like Mac, I'd like to see the sentencing report and recommendation.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#43)
    by Joe Bob on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 12:54:20 PM EST
    Considering how feckless, stupid, and short-sighted these morons are, the idea of deterring them seems hopeless. Unless there is some scheme of handcuffing a cop to each of these clowns 24-7. And that is likely true of any life forms more or less genetically similar, say, out to third cousins. But, dumb as they are, no amount of sentence, long or short, will cause them to "learn their lesson", and so the question then arises how to protect society from them.
    Wow, let's tote up the list of assumptions made about the defendants here: low intelligence, genetically defective and/or genetically predisposed to criminality, so amoral and just plain stupid that even the most extreme punishments will never make an impression through their thick skulls. This offers a lot more insight into your personal biases, or perhaps prejudices would be a more accurate word, than the actual issue at hand.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#44)
    by Richard Aubrey on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 01:29:51 PM EST
    Joe Bob. Feckless, stupid, and moronic. That seems to be a reasonable description of somebody who would loot a liquor store during the anarchy of a natural disaster. It doesn't take a law degree to be that stupid. It can be done quite easily, in fact. And, on top of that, they were even more dumb, being caught in the middle of anarchy. Nobody gets caught in the middle of anarchy. Jeez. And of course their relatives would share some of those traits. That's genetics. Like in evolution. Or are you a creationist? Do you think these guys could be deterred by the prospect of once again being arrested? Maybe the tenth or twentieth time they repeated? Considering they'd be getting away with it most times. Anyway, I had bet myself another ten bucks that bringing up the uncomfortable question of how society can protect itself from these clowns would generate nonsense such as yours.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#45)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 01:41:25 PM EST
    RA Stupid and moronic I agree with. The rest is just plain prejudice since you dont know these people, their circumstances, or previous histories. The fact that such conclusions come from you so easily based on no information reveal more about you. Did you base these generalities on visuals? Color of their skin? Economic status?

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#46)
    by Dadler on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 01:45:21 PM EST
    Richard Aubrey, First off, look, my big problem is FIFTEEN YEARS for taking some booze. Okay? WAYYYYYYY outta whack. And the kind of thing that makes America look like a plantation, when one considers the amount of white-collar looting and government incompetence go relatively unpunished. As for the larger issue, of course, SOME may have stayed to protect possessions, as you say SOME said they did; most would have left, however, if they had been served by their government, had been properly informed of the danger, had a place to go and a way to get there. Local officials share tons of blame, but the feds had the resources and the warnings and the majority of the responsibility for an evacuation and disaster of that magnitude. And CERTAINLY they had the ability to guard the most affected neighborhoods to keep looting down. Are you saying we couldn't have kept it down with a reasonable presence? Why is this sounding frighteningly like the looting in Iraq? And I've lived in the ghetto, bud. Don't lecture me about poor people ANYthing, please, THAT'S laughable to me. The L.A. riots got to my neighborhood and I bolted like hell, couldn't have given a rat's ass about my meager possessions. Tho for some reason I felt the need to return some movies to Blockbuster before I fled south. Blockbuster was locking up with frightened looks in their eyes and just told everyone to just keep the movies and go home and get off the street. Then I got stuck in a traffic jam trying to get on the freeway, and EVERYONE in EVERY car was just looking around nervously, wondering when some random act of violence or carjacking or whatever was going to hit them. We were ALL distrustful of EVERYONE. I have a good handle on it, bro. It all, for some reason, just reminds me of invading Panama -- a forgotten neo-con war. Supposedly, we were told, there were minimum civilian casualties, but that those casualties couldn't be counted accurately because the most bombed and destroyed neighborhoods were the poorest and the people the least accounted for to START with. The Orwellian justification for saying hardly any civilians were killed, in "official" words sent to me by Les Aspin in a cheaply bound congressional report. The poor don't matter. Wherever they are.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#47)
    by ding7777 on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 02:33:59 PM EST
    MIDad - This was a liquor store, not Whole Foods. BigTex - Booze doesn't fall into one of those categories They could have used the booze to barter for what you consider legitimate items.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#48)
    by Joe Bob on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 02:58:31 PM EST
    RA, you just don't know when to stop. Reminds me of an old saying:
    "It's best to remain quiet and let people think you're an idiot, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt."
    Anyway, please tell me more about this genetically predestined criminal class. Has the human genome been decoded to the point where they can test for that sort of thing? While you're at it I would be fascinated to learn how you get from what we know: three people were convicted for looting in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, to what you assume: they were genetically predisposed to crime and, left to their own devices, would get arrested 10 or 20 times.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 03:45:19 PM EST
    Especially when all any self respecting crook has to do to prove his genetic superiority and earn R.A's life-long fealty is to get himself up a big, fat, warchest and continually mouth hysterical platitudes about terrorist coddling liberals etc

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 04:19:36 PM EST
    Heredity isn't so farfetched, and neither is a new eugenics. It is, in fact, Spiralling out of control.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 04:30:47 PM EST
    I'll bet this dude isa conservative judge looking to establish his reputation as a hanging judge ala Hanging Harry Lee Coe former chief criminal judge and after State Atty in Tampa, Fl, for re-election. BTW, judge Coe ate a bullet when his past caught up with him, justice was served.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#53)
    by Aaron on Thu Jun 29, 2006 at 07:50:00 PM EST
    I smell the hand of the powerful liquor lobby at work behind the scenes in this case. One thing that they cannot tolerate is Black folk stealing liquor, they've got to nip that that kind of thing in the bud, before it starts cutting into their profit margins. No doubt the judge will be getting cases of Johnnie Walker Black delivered to his door for life. I'm assuming that these defendants were Black. In the days of the Roman empire, a person who was found guilty of bribing a public official had themselves sewed up inside a burlap bag with a hungry tiger, perhaps if we adopt that policy, bribing government officials would become less common.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#54)
    by roy on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 12:31:30 AM EST
    I smell the hand of the powerful liquor lobby at work behind the scenes in this case.
    The liquor makers already got paid. Theft moves merchandise off the shelves so it has to be replaced, benefiting the "liquor lobby" at the expense of retailers and their insurers. So maybe it's really the "powerful grocery lobby" not wanting people to steal their stuff. The judge will, no doubt, get a crateload of prime produce at his back door.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 05:56:24 AM EST
    Stealing liquor in a time of natural disaster isn't the same as stealing food, however the notion that this crime warrants 15 years in jail is absurd. By these standards, Duke Cunningham, who took millions of dollars in bribes from defense contractors during a time of war should have gotten multiple life sentences. Sorry to see this great site get freeped by the likes of Croc and others.....

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 07:22:11 AM EST
    Yes. The comparison pointed out a problem. The problem is tht the men bribing a federal official should have a much LONGER sentence, not that the looters should have a shorter one.
    Where do you propose housing all these people you want caged for 15+ years? How do we pay for it? Jeez...you'd think we have a plethora of cells just waiting for occupants.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#57)
    by Johnny on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 10:25:22 AM EST
    Rapid City, SD. Local politician embezzles 86,000 dollars of tax-payer money. Sentence? 15 years. Which is the worse violation of trust? Insane in both cases.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 11:02:02 AM EST
    That's a friggin' insane sentence for the looters. We're talking about $500 worth of goods that the store owner probably declared a total loss anyway. But heck, let the taxpayers foot a 30K/year bill for each of them - that'll teach people not to loot.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#59)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 11:41:32 AM EST
    I hope the law and order types jizzing themselves over this sentence realize it's quite possible a murderer or rapist will be paroled to make room for the liquor looters in our overcrowded prisons. Another assinine aspect to this travesty.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#60)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 01:54:49 PM EST
    These jokers were making off with 27 bottles of alcohol, 6 cases of beer and a case of wine coolers, but say they weren't looting?? OK. I'll buy that, as long as they said they were stealing instead. Many of the people who own the hundreds of stores and businesses picked clean by these thieves are probably quite happy with this sentence. Contrary to MSM apologists, a hurricane does not grant license for theft, even if you are black.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 07:37:38 PM EST
    Why is it assumed that a defense attorney has to be pro-crime? An honest defense attorney is no more pro-crime than a honest prosecution is pro-torture. You people who do not live in Hurricane Alley are clueless about the evil that is looting. I won't be too upset if a man who killed his woman in the heat of passion is let out of Raiford to make room for a looter. Looters, robbers and burglars are all cut from the same cloth. I can't cry when a robber pulls prison time.

    Re: Katrina Looters Get 15 Year Sentences (none / 0) (#62)
    by Johnny on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 10:37:28 PM EST
    I won't be too upset if a man who killed his woman in the heat of passion is let out of Raiford to make room for a looter.
    And there we have it... material goods are worth more than human life to idiot-wingers. Nice to know there are still a$$holes like you around. Room for you in Iran, buddy.