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Friday Open Thread

The doldrums of summer? Another FBI disclosure of an aspirational but not operational terror threat on the Holland Tunnel in New York -- why disclose it now?

Sandra Day O'Connor and Stephen Breyer are in Aspen at the Ideas Festival. So is Colin Powell who fell ill while diningat Campo Fiore in Aspen with Bill Clinton. He went to the hospital for a few hours. Katie Couric and Wolf Blitzer and other media luminaries are in Aspen this week as well.

Hillary Clinton will be in Denver tonight for a fund-raiser at a private home for her Senate campaign. I'll be attending, but as a guest, not a journalist, so I won't be blogging about it.

This is an open thread.

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    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by scribe on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:33:36 AM EST
    These guys wanted to blow up the Holland Tunnel so as to flood the financial district and make it look just like New Orleans after Katrina. Yeee-hah. Apparently, no one bothered to tell them (and they didn't bother to find out) that the ends of the Holland Tunnel are, uh, 10 feet above sea level and, uh, water doesn't flow up hill. We are possibly talking about the dimmest bulbs on the tree. Something about defying the laws of physics.... And, if that wasn't enough of a problem, they didn't bother to find out or remember that both to cut traffic problems (if you've ever driven through the Holland, you know what I mean) and eliminate driving truck bombs down to the (former) WTC (like was done in '93), y'can't drive a truck into the Holland Tunnel. Period. Turned away at the entrance. As far as I'm concerned, this is just another one of Rover's lookit-the-shiny specials, even though the reporter, interviewed on WNYC this morning, said they got the story the old-fashioned-reporting way, not through a leak. That it comes on the anniversary of the London tube bombings is, to my eyes, no coincidence.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:36:13 AM EST
    Tickets to [tonight's Denver Hillary Clinton fundraiser] event range from $250 to $4,200.
    I'm always surprised at how little it costs to get access to top politicians.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by weezie on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 11:35:34 AM EST
    Come on Jeralyn! Get a picture of you and Hillary and post it for us! Please?!

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 11:38:38 AM EST
    So Scribe, they just wanted to blow up the Holland tunnel and everyone in it, but it is no big deal, because they could not have flooded the financial district? Either way George Bush is still the biggest terrorist in the world! I'll bet they were disadvantegd people with brown skin- doesn't that figure. Some war on terror- where's Osama?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by scribe on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 11:45:13 AM EST
    More that it's no big deal. Or, in the words of Gawker.com: Another Day, Another Terror Plot Being scared is so 2002; Since they figured out the off-day is the one when no one wants to bomb them, New Yorkers now only act terrorized, so as to get some yucks from tourists crapping their fannypacks.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 11:55:14 AM EST
    There seems to be this attempt to link enforcement of our laws against plotting mass murder to "being scared". I am not "scared" but I do want people that would plot mass murder to be locked up however incompetent they may be. Do we need to wait until they ARE competent before we do anything about it?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 12:18:25 PM EST
    I'm always surprised at how little it costs to get access to top politicians.
    What is your definition of access?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 12:35:17 PM EST
    Good question, macro. I guess in this instance my definition is the opportunity to rub shoulders with and maybe catch Hill's ear on some topic or cause or another. I guess in a general sense my comment was based on the observation over the years that when politician payola cases come to light, they always seem to be for amounts of money/goods/services/whatever that have remarkably little value. To me anyway. And no, I'm not suggesting Hillary's taking bribes from anyone...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 01:00:04 PM EST
    UPDATE: Anyone remember Columbine? As for the foiled "plot", it's good to foil something, although I haven't regained the political faith necessary to convince me it's a genuine threat nipped in the bud. My skepticism gives me great pause. Already seems a lot of terrorist clusterf*cking leading up to November. But I could be wrong. Wouldn't surprise my wife. Or my son. But I'll go all in on the opinion.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 01:00:43 PM EST
    Escape the earthly mire, soar a little via Hubble.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by scribe on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 01:00:59 PM EST
    The New Hampshire phone jamming case is taking an interesting turn. Per Raw Story, the defendant filed papers yesterday in which he says he may argue he should be acquitted because he thought/was led to believe the government authorized it. The story Here's the filing A quote:
    "Hansen may assert at trial that he and his business had performed services for GOP Marketplace in the past and, based on its name and the type of work the business had been contracted to perform, he reasonably assumed that GOP Marketplace was a governmental entity or at least that the activities that his business was being asked to perform had been approved in advance by the national Republican party."
    And the footnote brings in Ken Mehlman:
    It should be noted, in support of this possible defense, that in November 2002, the party in control of the Executive and Legislative branches of government was the Republican Party (aka the Grand Old Party or "GOP"). It should also be noted that a convicted co-conspirator, James Tobin, is alleged to have had telephone contact with the White House during the time period that the phonejamming scheme was unfolding. Larry Margasak, Phone Jamming Records Point to White House, Assoc. Press, April 11, 2006. It appears that Mr. Tobin may have had telephone contact with Ken Mehlman and Alicia Davis in the White House Office of Political Affairs, during the time that the alleged scheme was unfolding. It is not known, however, what involvement, if any, anyone at the White House may have had concerning the alleged scheme to "jam" phones on Election Day in 2002.
    Mmmm.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 01:01:41 PM EST
    Question, though, is it typical for a NY senator to raise senatorial campaign funds in states as far flung as CO?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Andreas on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 02:43:32 PM EST
    The 9news article states: "Clinton was expected to attend a private cocktail reception in the Denver home of Laura and Bob Hill Friday night. Tickets to the event range from $250 to $4,200." Does that imply that TL paid for Hillary Clinton's campaign?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 03:31:41 PM EST
    How many plots are foiled to blow up the Holland tunnel while the ReThuglican Congress loots the treasury? And yes this is a trick question.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Johnny on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:30:37 PM EST
    In the runup to Nov. there will be many of these plots foiled. And the idiotwingers will flock to the polls in droves, secure in the knowledge that the idiotwinger politicians are keeping them safe. baa baa.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:42:32 PM EST
    I thought I had a scoop on one of those terraplots uncovered Breaking: Terrorist Plot Uncovered ...that included a few high points of the original find at Huffington Post that went into great detail of the convoluted conspiracy. And now, today, another one?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:42:59 PM EST
    I have a feeling the 42 is closer to the "access" amount. I have no doubt that at some point in her iconoclastic career Hillary has given at least one impassioned, withering speech excoriating Tammany Hall and patronage that sent shock waves of fear and trembling through the ranks queued up at "the revolving door"; I just somehow missed hearing about it.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 04:59:29 PM EST
    So he's only gotten 5,500 Americans killed on his watch. That ole Georgie's mah he-ro. Gonna git me a case 'a Pabst 'n celebrate.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 05:55:50 PM EST
    This plot looks like it is still an on going investigation. So who leaked this? Where's our right wing friends and their outrage? Why isn't this newspaper being threathened? Rhetorical questions.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 06:51:49 PM EST
    SUO, the current Governor of CA has been known to attend out-of-state fundraisers where unlike Clinton, he was the primary recipient of the funds raised. From the AP, 05/05/2005:
    California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has embarked on a multistate fundraising swing to raise some of the estimated $50 million his advisers say he'll need to wage an all-but-certain special election campaign.


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Liberal Heart on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 07:17:06 PM EST
    Okay, I'm suspicious. We've had two aspirational terror plots come to light in recent days, and then there was Bush doing a presser today and going on Larry King last night. I'm thinking there's some bad news coming for Bush and he's trying to build his numbers before they take another hit. Maybe the Waas article figures in here somewhere, too.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 07:48:49 PM EST
    and now, some cultural musing: skippy reviews "a scanner darkly" damn good dick

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 08:20:04 PM EST
    I'm sure there's little else but bad news coming Bush's way. Here are a few that BushCo would rather we not see. Investigation: Italians investigating American/Italian war network At the center of this investigation is Giovanni Castellaneta, currently Italy's ambassador to the United States and the man widely believed to have delivered the falsified Niger "yellowcake uranium dossier" to the White House, helping the Bush administration justify war on Iraq. .... In late 2005, the Italian judiciary issued European-wide arrest warrants for 22 CIA operatives whom prosecutors accuse of kidnapping Abu Omar. ... It is worth remembering that at the time of the Omar kidnapping, according to Italian media, Pollari and Castellaneta had recently delivered the forged yellowcake dossier to Condoleezza Rice. Furthermore, by virtue of his role as deputy chair of Finmeccanica, Italy's largest defense firm, Ambassador Castellaneta was in the midst of securing the Marine One contract -- 23 new Italian helicopters for President Bush. How Bush Breaks the Ten Commandments Man indicted in phone jamming case will argue Administration approved election scheme The fourth man indicted in a New Hampshire phone-jamming scheme -- in which Republican operatives jammed the phone lines of Democratic get-out-the-vote efforts in a 2002 Senate race -- will argue at trial that the Bush Administration and the national Republican Party gave their approval to the plan, according to a motion filed by his attorney Thursday. Ex-Blackwater worker accused of extortion "I will be more than happy to talk to media after my court appearance on Friday," Holdren-Nowacki said. "I've got a lot to say, and some of it will be of interest to the family members of the contractors who died." One more interesting coincidence of connections I found concerns a case that's been going on in Chicago. This probably falls under Fitzgerald's jurisdiction on the federal level, with several other cases he's pursued in that area. Report into alleged Chicago police torture to be released A special prosecutor appointed four years ago to investigate allegations of police torture in Chicago said Friday he will release his report in a few weeks, saying the legal battle that has kept the report sealed is over. ... Biebel appointed special prosecutors Boyle and Edward J. Egan four years ago to investigate allegations that Chicago police homicide detectives in the 1970s and 1980s tortured 192 black men in interrogation rooms. The investigation has cost $5.5 million. ... Allegations have existed for years that detectives under the command of Lt. Jon Burge in the Area 2 violent crime unit elicited confessions from suspects by beating them, playing mock Russian roulette, using electric shock and starting to smother at least one with a typewriter cover. The interesting possibility to this is it could have connections to one or more of the BushCo prosecutions. Several alleged suspects, like Padilla and some of the recent (Moorish Science) Liberty 7, have ties to gang activities and/or criminal history in that area. I don't think much happens just by chance with this admin.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:25:55 PM EST
    Hmmm... FBI captures 7 terrorists in Miami before anyone is hurt.... bad. FBI breaks up plot to destroy Holland Tunnel before anyone is hurt... bad. I think I see a pattern here. FBI... bad. Terrorists misunderstood people looking for attention... Rumi.... Can you tell us what Bush had to do with Chicago police in the 70's and 80's???? Jondee - Did you forget this??? "At the special meeting on July 5 (2001) were the FBI, Secret Service, FAA, Customs, Coast Guard, and Immigration. We told them that we thought a spectacular al Qaeda terrorist attack was coming in the near future." That had been had been George Tenet's language. "We asked that they take special measures to increase security and surveillance. Thus, the White House did ensure that domestic law enforcement including the FAA knew that the CSG believed that a major al Qaeda attack was coming, and it could be in the U.S., and did ask that special measures be taken." Don't you just hate it when your BS runs up against facts?? But the best is by Liberal Heart:
    Okay, I'm suspicious.
    We know you are. Have you called home lately?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:37:44 PM EST
    The boy who cried wolf and then raided the henhouse?
    Think it's time to compare the number of announced terrorism cases in pre-election 2004t, post-election 2005, and, now, pre-election 2006?
    TPM

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Liberal Heart on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 10:47:09 PM EST
    You missed my point, JimakaPPJ. I'm not saying it's bad if terror plots are broken up before people are hurt. I'm talking about timing. These aspirational plots have been -- or are said to have been -- in the works for a long time, but we're hearing about them now, one after the other, at the same time that Bush is making himself uncharacteristically accessible. So, yeah, I'm suspicious that Bush is getting out in front of some very bad news.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 11:04:59 PM EST
    Liberal Heart - So breaking them up was okay, just the timing was wrong... Pardon me while I giggle.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 11:43:28 PM EST
    Don't you just hate it when your BS runs up against facts?? Rice is lying. Was SHE there? Her word means jack. Scribe, I have been recently in awe (but not shock) of some of your comments. So much going on and you put the Mamoudiyah incident together with the kidnap/murder of the two soldiers way ahead of the curve. Now your dot connecting in the phone jamming case is another pocket of pus discovered. Rumi your 9:20 was also great. I hope no one else takes this as a snub because I don't link too much myself. I'm too busy just reading all this stuff, and the news on other sites, and also composing overly congratulatory comments. Please keep it coming. OK JM, did you meet the Hil? If she says she'll make you AG, only then will I back her. I know that smacks of backroom dealing but WTF! Oh S**T. It's friday night and I'm out of limes.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jul 07, 2006 at 11:44:43 PM EST
    Note that I am PST. Try to find a lime at this hour.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 01:10:10 AM EST
    You can laugh and cry you hebephrenic heart out here, PPJ, we understand............

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 04:00:26 AM EST
    You don't get what is heinous about this. These bastards are doing whatever it takes to get re-elected, They get it I think, Sky-Ho. They just don't care. Or they have such short-term awareness that they are incapable of caring.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 04:12:23 AM EST
    A Brief History of Terrorism by the USA
    ...for Bush to call us "a peaceful nation" means forgetting an enormous amount of history. Now, maybe that history is too much for Bush to take in, but even a small part of it would be enough to suggest that we have not been a peaceful nation. In fact, it is safe to say that since World War II, there has not been a more warlike nation in the world than the United States. The New York Times had a headline on September 23, 2001, that read "Forget the Past: It's a War Unlike Any Other." What would happen if we followed this advice? They want us to act as if we were born yesterday. They want us to forget the history of our government. Because if you forget history, if you were born yesterday, then you'll believe anything. ... If we don't know that history, we won't understand how much animosity we have engendered elsewhere in the world--not just in the Middle East but all over the world. In its foreign policy, the United States has consigned several million people to their deaths and supported terrorist governments in various parts of the world, especially in Latin America and the Middle East.


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by scribe on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 05:53:49 AM EST
    Che - thanks for the compliment. I'd like to think it's some special gift I received for smelling out where the links lie but, really, my secret is (with this administration) take the most cynical, authoritarian, etc. view on the facts, mix in a view of human nature and behavior that, in their world, no slight (real or imagined) goes without excessive retribution (in so many words, they do not turn the other cheek and behave in such a way as to encourage others to do the same), and assume this admin will do outrageous things just so as to push the boundary lines - regardless of what law or morality dictate - or to p*ss off perceived liberals, or both. Once you understand/adopt that view of the world, you can do it, too.... And, I wish I was making a bad joke, but sadly, I'm not. And now, rumi: re the Chicago Police Torture case. I'd heard about that sort of behavior some time ago. The interesting thing is that I read somewhere that one of the (lead) interrogators at Gitmo was a reservist, whose civilian job was (da dum) a Chicago PD detective. Not that such behavior was exactly discouraged by the powers that be. Go read the series of opinions out of the Seventh Circuit (in the early 90s) in the Buckley v. Fitzsimmons case (there are several) and you will find quotable quotes from respected (still sitting) federal appellate judges talking about the limits of "coerced confession practice" and their admissibility and their relevance, if any, to a civil rights prosecution. The sum and substance of their law was (1) if the police/prosecutors coerce a confession out of someone else, your civil rights weren't violated because you weren't the one tortured/coerced; (2) if they try to use to coerced confession/inculpatory statement against you, you can cross-examine the hell out of the cops and inculpating (coerced) witness, but the mere fact of the statement being coerced is not enough to keep it out of evidence, and whether to believe the coerced confession is up to the jury (assuming you find out about the coercion at all, because they aren't required to tell you how they got the confession); (3) if they coerce you, they can't use the coerced confession against you, but to get there you have to first prove the confession was coerced and we tend to believe the cops because all criminals lie about everything; (4) if they coerce you, your civil rights were violated, but your suit against the prosecutor will promptly end, because he's absolutely immune for acts in the conduct of a prosecution; (5) if they coerce you into making a statement but put the statement in a drawer or hang it on the wall, what are you complaining about anyway because they didn't use it against you. I'm not linking today; my linking finger's on strike....

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 06:27:42 AM EST
    Che- I would say a case of limes is on the way as thanks for the good words but with my luck it would probably translate to code for 'some nefarious activity I would never support'...:-) - - - - - - - - - Jim- It's very complicated The simplest summary is that the so called GWoT is actually a long running enterprise of intel agencies manipulations of dupes, bagmen, govt 'sanctioned' criminal activities on an international level to control covert foreign policy and public perception. Much of it has it's origins in the Iran Contra era and many of the same individuals in custody and many of those in office/govt employees are the same as 20-30 years ago. The Iran Contra networks were never broken up.
    Mid-1980s to early 1990s, Haiti ... While working to keep key Haitian military and political leaders in power, the CIA turned a blind eye to their clients' drug trafficking. In 1986, the Agency added some more names to its payroll by creating a new Haitian organization, the National Intelligence Service (SIN). SIN's mandate included countering the cocaine trade, though SIN officers themselves engaged in trafficking, a trade aided and abetted by some Haitian military and political leaders.18

    18 New York Times, Nov. 14, 1993; The Nation, Oct. 3, 1994, p. 346.

    The most influential common element is the Bush circle of friends and family in their control of the CIA from the early days of their careers. All paths seem to lead back to them, regardless of how disconnected they first appear.
    June 12, On the day that President Bush called Jose Padilla a "bad guy" and a "would-be killer," Puerto Rican community leaders in Chicago said they felt uneasy about the arrest of their former neighbor, on suspicion that he was linked to an Al Qaeda terror plot. ... Still others worried that the stream of government invective against Padilla, emphasizing his life as a street gang member in Chicago, could put all Puerto Ricans in an uncomfortable spotlight--a glare also felt keenly by Chicago's tiny group of Hispanic Muslims. ... Though they make up only a fraction of all Latinos, converts to Islam are not unheard of. Once traced to the Moorish influence in medieval Spain, Hispanic converts now are more likely to come from the streets of the U.S., where their traditional Catholic faith competes with Islam, evangelical Christianity and other options.
    Miami Groups Cry Double Standard In Terror Arrests Cop Watch, led by community leader Max Rameau, the Miami-Dade NAACP and the Haiti Solidarity Committee were among the groups present at the warehouse in Liberty City where the men were arrested last Thursday for a news conference. The groups are concerned about the timing of the arrests and the race of the men involved. All are black and/or Haitian nationals living in the United States. ... "If a Black organization confessed to blowing up a plane and buying weapons to attack another country, they would be jailed immediately," wrote event organizer Max Rameau of Cop Watch in a press release. "However, because these South Florida terrorists are white Hispanic, the media does not demonize them or demand their arrests, and the police, local or federal, are content to let them continue their actions." ... The group makes reference to Dr. Orlando Bosch, the Cuban anti-Castro activist and ex-CIA operative who has admitted to playing a role in the October 6, 1976 bombing of a Cuban airlines filled with citizens. Bosch has not been prosecuted and neither has Luis Antonia Llama, who admitted to planning attacks on Castro's regime in Cuba. - - - - - - - -
    Dad: Sears Tower suspect under spell of man "I heard these brothers were using our name," said Bey, who wore a medallion bearing the word "Justice" and a red star and crescent on his neck. "I have no idea who these people are. We are law-abiders, not lawbreakers. This is home. We are not fighting against the U.S.A." ... In the past, others have identified themselves as members of the Moorish Science Temple of America when they did not share the group's ideals, Bey said. ... For instance, in the late 1970s, Jeff Fort, the head of the El Rukn street gang in Chicago, reportedly founded the Moorish Science Temple of America, El Rukn Tribe, hoping such an affiliation would deter law enforcement. Fort is now serving a 75-year sentence for murder. - - - - - - - Claim to Fame: First American convicted of terrorism-for-hire, Friend of Richard Nixon BY THE STANDARDS of the era - the 1980s, that doughy Sobaka Dossier time when terrorist targets were limited to Marine barracks in unpronounceable countries - the story was sensational. A Chicago street gang was accused of planning to bomb police stations, government buildings - even down an airliner - on behalf of their "Muslim brother," Libyan dictator Moammar Kaddafi. ... A little digging and the plot thickened. The gang - a would-be Islamic sect called the El Rukns - was led by none other than Jeff Fort, a legend on Chicago's South Side, whose career as an urban warlord stretched back to the early 1960s. In the relatively brief period he spent out of jail in the ensuing decades, Fort had built the most powerful street gang in Chicago and possibly the entire United States. ... That wasn't all. Fort had rubbed shoulders with notables ranging from Jesse Jackson to Sammy Davis, Jr. to jazz guru Oscar Brown, Jr. Before went to war against the United States for Kaddafi, Fort went to war for the Feds against the Black Panthers. His status in the community was such that he'd even been invited to Richard Nixon's inauguration, though he graciously passed his comp tickets to two of his subordinates.
    Jim- We are on the same side in that we both pursue the protection and integrity of our country and we both support the fight against terrorism.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 07:59:05 AM EST
    Scribe, Sadly, it is a target-rich environment.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 08:58:47 AM EST
    Che writes:
    Rice is lying. Was SHE there? Her word means jack.
    She said it on FNC, which has a huge national audience. Her claim includes all sorts of other people....CG, FAA, FBI, etc... It should be easy for you to prove that she was lying. I await your links. BTW You wrote:
    Note that I am PST. Try to find a lime at this hour.
    Go to your nearest card casino and tip the bartender. No charge for the advice since you obviously need a drink. Rumi - We may be on the same side, but I don't assume that everything the FBI does is politically driven and a plot out if the WH. I think you do, and so does much of the anti-war Left. That's pure paranoia. The differences between us are huge. Dark Avenger - No, you don't understand or you wouldn't be taking the positions you do. Sky-Ho writes:
    GWBush is the biggest terrorist in the world. I stand with at least 70% of the world, not that I need to be with the majority of thinking people.
    Now, your point is that if a large number of people believe something it is true. At one time the vast majority of people thought the world was flat. scribe - Loved your self-description. I have saved it as an example of "ego at work."

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 09:16:10 AM EST
    At one time the large majority of americans thought iraq had WMD's, why don't you try a solid arguement once in a while Jimaka? The figure of people who think that the united states is the single greatest threat to the world, ie. the world's biggest terrorist is more like, hmm lets see, 100 million voting americans * 60% democrats + the rest of the world's population - Israel = oh about 5.9 billion. And by the way the "majority of people who thought the world was flat" was the oppressors, the catholic church. you are the oppressors, the united states of america. Truth and clarity is always abundant on the side that is being crushed by the boot of the oppressors. They have no trouble understanding the true intent of rogue states such as the US.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 09:21:15 AM EST
    Are there any right wing blogs that let the readers engage in discussion as talk left does?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 09:34:18 AM EST
    FBI captures 7 terrorists in Miami before anyone is hurt.... bad.
    If those guys are terrorists, I'm Bruce Wayne. They are just some knuckleheads talkin' crazy...I thought talkin' crazy was allowed in America. Me and my buddies joke about storming the capital all the time...I guess I'm a terrorist too now. Damn, the definition of that word just grows and grows.
    At least he's not praciticing his terrorism against US citizens
    9/11 hit too close to the rich and powerful. So GDub sends the poor over the ocean to draw the fire...that's not preventing terrorism, that's throwing meat to the wolves. It's morally bankrupt. Is the US and the world better off than now than in 2000? The answer is obvious to all not wearing patriotic blinders.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Liberal Heart on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 10:22:02 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ, methinks you practice voluntary ignorance. That, or you're a poor reader. I didn't say the timing of the aspirational plot revelations is bad; I said I'm suspicious of the timing because 1) the plots hit the airwaves so close together, and 2) the prez is also hitting the airwaves in the same stretch of time, which is quite unlike him. What isn't unlike him is using terror as a means of protecting whatever approval he has left. I see the merging of those buzzing airwaves as indicative that bad news (for Bush) is coming. Your mileage may differ. There. I've told you yet again what my comments mean. Now here's your choice: Get it, or don't, but please stop perverting my statements into something they aren't.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by roy on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 10:45:15 AM EST
    Are there any right wing blogs that let the readers engage in discussion as talk left does?
    Not quite this good, but... The Volokh Conspiracy isn't exactly right-wing, but it's closer than this place, and it often allows comments. It's policed somewhat more strictly, in a good way IMHO. Little Green Footballs has an active comment community, but the rhetoric is so venemous it's hard to even agree with the crowd politely. Daily Ablution is rather good, especially if you're into mocking sloppy liberal bias in the British press.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 11:30:44 AM EST
    kdog - Well, if you start asking for explosives, money, plans, uniforms...expect to be playing solitary instead of in the WSOP... deeper13 - They have found over 500 shells....Link Link That Saddam was thought to have WMD's is understood by all reasonable people, including Demos, plus: Even Scott Ritter said:
    I am more aware than any UN official that Iraq has set up covert procurement funds to violate sanctions. This was true in 1997-1998, and I'm sure its true today.
    And, if you care to read the Kay Report you will see that the main thing he says is that, not only was Saddam in violation of the sanctions, he was actively trying to get back into the WMD business.
    We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN.
    In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence - hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use - are ones of deliberate, rather than random, acts
    With regard to Iraq's nuclear program, the testimony we have obtained from Iraqi scientists and senior government officials should clear up any doubts about whether Saddam still wanted to obtain nuclear weapons.
    The issue was simply what Bush said in his 2003 SOTU:
    Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option. (Applause.)


    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 11:46:23 AM EST
    ooops Hit the post button too soon. deeper13 - I hope these examples will give you a view of what Bush was facing, even though I understand that even if you did, you would never agree. As for the continued... "The world hates us" meme, I just again note that this is meaningless. Remember this. Eagles don't flock. Liberal Heart - I understand you are suspicious, and I understand that you are venting that point. So, if the timing is supposedly being done to benefit Bush and since you hate Bush, then the timing is "bad." Now that I have explained this I assume you understand my laughter. Yes, I find unbridled paranoia amusing.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 12:07:26 PM EST
    Once again ppj shows his remarkable likeness to the Chimpking :
    That Saddam was thought to have WMD's is understood by all reasonable people, including Demos, plus:
    Colbert explains Bush and his emulators:
    The greatest thing about this man is he's steady. You know where he stands. He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday. Events can change; this man's beliefs never will.
    There are many quotes, once widely believed, that ppj could also post such as "the world is flat". No doubt this is one of his sources.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 01:44:52 PM EST
    Eagles dont flock, but Chickenhawks do. And they always sing in chorus.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Liberal Heart on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 02:47:42 PM EST
    So, if the timing is supposedly being done to benefit Bush and since you hate Bush, then the timing is "bad." Jimakappj wrote the above to explain to me what my comments meant. But I like my version of my reality better than his version of my reality, so please, folks, when I post -- trust me to mean what I say, and not what Jimakappj would have me mean. Now I have to go look up the diagnosis that accompanies inappropriate laughter...

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by kdog on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 03:17:22 PM EST
    Jim...more likely, the accused were trying to get a roll by hustling the undercover. Probably criminal...but a far cry from terrorism.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 03:49:20 PM EST
    PPJ, here's an example of your understanding at work here. If you had a name like those traditionally given to Native American for your behavior here, it would be something like "Wounded Foot From Own Arrow".

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 04:46:16 PM EST
    deeper13 - I note that you completely ignore all the links and all the quotes I have provided for your review, so I will assume that you didn't read them. Since you didn't I see no reason to try and pursue rational arguments with you. So let's just examine what you write: First you pass out a death threat:
    You know if you republicans don't drive people to call for your death by policy, you certainly instigate this response through your rhetoric.
    Actually you have wasted it on me as I am an Independent, who prefers to be called a Social Liberal. I support National Health Care, Gay Rights, Woman's Right To Choose. I think our drug policies need to be rationalized, our tax policy is screwed up and believe in Universal Military Service. I left the Demos in '78. Carter finished what the Left started in '68. I am a staunch supporter of national defense and the WOT. It is unfortunate, but true, that currently Bush and Repubs are the only game in town. Now. Can you tell me what the connection is between being a Canadian and not getting angry? Can you provide me with a list of the weapons we suppoosedly sold Iraq in the '80's? We did support Iraq and we did provide intelligence, but weapons??? You should also read some history and understand that Iran, as they are now trying again, was bent on taking control of the ME. So actually Iraq was our de facto army. That they stopped Iran's imperial dreams of a Islamic Empire should be cheered by everyone. Thank God we helped. So, your obvious lack of the above information confirms that you are young, and ill served by those who claim to educate you. That they have failed is apparent. So go back and study some more. Learn that death threats are considered in extremely poor taste.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 07:57:28 PM EST
    So Sorry Jimaka, Absolutely right, death threats are in extremely bad taste. I assure you I have no interest in harming you (or anyone) since you provide me with at least 15 minutes of good wholesome laughter each day. My response was the same form your president uses occasionally when he declares "these people wish death upon us". Then in the same day the white house goes out and ensures they pursue policies and use rhetoric that amplify the very same sentiment (paul wolfowitz was for the latter). You Write; "You should also read some history and understand that Iran, as they are now trying again, was bent on taking control of the ME. So actually Iraq was our de facto army. That they stopped Iran's imperial dreams of a Islamic Empire should be cheered by everyone. Thank God we helped." Perhaps it is you that should learn some history (I assume Americans or brits write the history books you read, but it's increasingly hard for the rest of the world to trust the invading party to recall an accurate account of events). Iran was not "bent on taking control of the middle east", they were in the midst of a revolution after overthrowing a brutal shah dictator that your country installed. Of course in those days, when Saddam definately had WMD's, Washington was a staunch ally since Saddam being a Sunni, clearly didn't favour a majority shiite uprising in Iran. That revolution was the will of the people of iran speaking out against tyranny. It may be Washington's view that Isreal's borders extend to the land which it now occupies, but its not the view of the majority of the arab world, you can go to a map to figure that one out. Democracy is expressing the majority view of the people, I AM NOT SAYING ITS RIGHT ALL THE TIME, but it is what it is. Where as Washington's view of democracy is invading countries, killing tens of thousands of people in the process, then installing governments that do not express the will of the people but rather agree with Washington's position on the material prize at question. This leads to tens of thousands more being killed as they yearn to protest against tyranny. Imperial dreams or hegemony can only be used in describing the United States. Why was Saddam Hussein was so brutal after Washington/CIA istalled him in 1963? This was also after a popular uprising that saw the british installed tyrant thrown out of power. I don't think God would thank washington at all for that one, but I never proclaim that i know the will of god as some in your country do. I did start my point with "you republicans", i did not intend to say that republicans are somehow responsible for all wrongs america commits, however no one slaps people in the face with it quite as well as they do ("we will end states that sponser terrorism", ahem don't agree with washington ahem, heh heh). The rest of your points are off topic, I'm glad you provided me with your political leanings, and I would to, but lets just stick to the debate of the day. I won't waste my time looking up references for you as this is not a historical essay, it's a comment on an opinion based website. The historical record outside of washington is quite concise on the subject.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 08:20:56 PM EST
    In case anyone's still confused about precise defintions and in need of illustrations of gross hypocrisy, all they need to do is puruse the history of ppj's analysis of the eighties Iranian situation and his school girl idealization of Reagan, North, Casey & co, and remember that he's actually called for the execution of young American soldiers in Iraq who refuse to obey orders.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 08, 2006 at 08:28:36 PM EST
    Speaking of "bad taste", too bad there isnt a Dr. Kevorkian for wingnuts whose hypocrisy has become terminal.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 03:55:44 AM EST
    Jondee - Do you think that the support you described for the eighties players in the Iranian issues make up the 28% of core Bush supporters?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 07:06:28 AM EST
    Deeper13 - So Iran attacked Iraq because Iran was in the middle of an internal recolution??? Do you realize how silly that sounds? And Off Topic? Do you understand that this is an Open Thread??? BTW - This comment further defines you:
    That revolution was the will of the people of iran speaking out against tyranny. It may be Washington's view that Isreal's borders extend to the land which it now occupies
    I was wondering how long it would take you to play the Israel card. Oh well, I am so glad that I provide you with entertainment. Perhaps some knowledge will rub off as you read my funny ciomments. Heaven knows you need some. Jondee - Please be accurate. The soldier who missed movement was in the US when I called for him to receive a courts martial and be hanged, not in Iraq. As for your other comments, they are typical. You never refute the facts, you just claim that the actions were bad. That illustrates the depth of your arguments.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 07:13:44 AM EST
    deeper13 - I left out a comment. You wrote the following.
    Posted by deeper13 July 8, 2006 10:16 AM At one time the large majority of americans thought iraq had WMD's, why don't you try a solid arguement once in a while Jimaka?
    At 12:30PM I gave you 4 links and 8 quotes showing what people were thinking and saying in the 02-03 time frame. You never replied with a death threat. So I assume you recognized how badly you had lost the debate.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 07:42:28 AM EST
    There is no debate, the "war party" ie the Rethugs and centerist Dems knew full well there were no WMDs at the time of the Iraq invasion. But that was not about to stop them. Your constant referral to a few self-serving quotes some out of context proves nothing as usual. But a good propagandist such as yourself actually starts to believe the nonsense they spew. The US was responsible for the rise of the fundamentalist government in Iran. They overthrew the democrat leader of Iran in 1953 because although the US claims to like democracy what they hate even more is a country that takes control of its own resources. So they backed the Shah who was extremely repressive and known for his secret police who caused many Iranians to "disappear". The rise of the fundamentalist government was a direct response to those years of repression. The US not liking that decided to Back Sadaam. The US is unable to think more that 1 step ahead in its foreign policy. Their policies which supressed democratic leaders in the ME and backed fundamentalist fighters in the war against Russia is now reaping what it sowed.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 07:42:52 AM EST
    Become a MasterBaiter and win a free T-Shirt. :-/

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 08:11:00 AM EST
    Anyone who thinks that the US is a force for peace and everyone else is the problem is lost in life, nevermind the debate. By the way, if this is too "silly for you" don't read, stay as ignorant as you prove is humanly possible. The January 2005 elections took place at the insistence of Ayatollah Sistani, who vetoed three schemes by the occupation authorities to dilute them. "Although the united states initially opposed early elections in Iraq, after Ayatollah Sistani turned huge numbers of his followers out in the streets to demand such elections, Washington had little choice but to agree." (Wall street journal) "It was only when it became clear the the US could not withstand a Shia uprising that elections turned out to have been an immediate American goal all along" (Patrick Cockburn, Wall Street Journal) 'Once it became clear that US and UK efforts to bar elections could not be sustained, the invaders of course took credit for them. The elections and the background soon settled comfortably into "the american sponsered electoral process", much as the Israel-Palestine "peace process" that the United States has impeded for thirty years has been transmuted into the "halting American-led process to make peace between israelis and Palestinians.' (John Burns, NYT) This should demonstrate (to everyone with an IQ over 78, which excludes Jimaka and O'Reilly) how warped your view of history (however recent) is. I never refute the facts? Read sometime, You're as ignorant as they come.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:48:49 AM EST
    deeper13 - The facts are that they voted. If we had been such an evil force they would not have. A lack of logic becomes you. BTW - Do you know how to link?? Your "quotes only" deprive your argument of the value of context, and proof of your point. SD - Fifty three years ago we were faced with a Soviet Union that, among other things, desired a warm water port for its navy. We backed the Shah as a geopolitical action to block the Soviets. To have failed to do so would have expanded the Soviet's capabilities to export threats and influence governments as they had just done in Eastern Europe. This would have further isolated India, Indonesia, Australia, New Zeland and the Phillipines, in fact, all of the SEATO countries plus the others. Looking westward it would have impacted Egypt, Iraq, Syria.. all of the countries in the ME. The long term results of this action was mostly positive until Carter failed to act in '79 and '80, creating what is certainly the mother of all the islamic terrorists that have followed. SD, you are a constant practitioner of viewing the world through the lens of "today." You really should read some history and apply it to what is happening now.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 09:57:07 AM EST
    SD - Fifty three years ago we were faced with a Soviet Union that, among other things, desired a warm water port for its navy. We backed the Shah as a geopolitical action to block the Soviets.
    Absolutely incorrect. Factually bankrupt The English asked the CIA to overthrow the Democratic leader of Iran because he was going to nationalize the Oil industry. You should learn some histroy instead of the propaganda to read amd regurgitate here. Now the funny thing is the leader of Iran had offer a deal tot he English that would have given them 50% of the profits. The English didn't accept and after having to cut the Americans in ended up with less. The Communist meme has been used many times as a cover up of the facts on the ground.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by soccerdad on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 10:05:24 AM EST
    The long term results of this action was mostly positive until Carter failed to act in '79 and '80, creating what is certainly the mother of all the islamic terrorists that have followed
    Now this part is just pure unadulturated BS. The rise of the terrorist is directly a result of Reagans backing of the fundamentalists against Russia. The US gave the money to Pakistan and let them distribute it to the people fighting Russia. Well Pakistan was sponsoring the fundamentalists including bin Laden but that was acceptable to the US because they were blinded by their hatred and fear of the USSR. To blame Carter is absurd on its face and you know it. And if the US is such a fan of moderation and Democracy why did the Bush adminstration allow Haq be captured by the Taliban and killed and back the warlords instead? So the US bought, armed and paid for Osama and the fundamentalists who now hate us. The hate us for the same reason they hatred the Russians, i.e. we interfere in their countries

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 10:13:36 AM EST
    I missed the part where Mr. Defense called for so-many-ropes-for-so-many-necks in reference to the traitors (it must have been Carters fault), who sold wmds to the Iranians during the time when they were "threatening the entire M.E". Of course Carter could have done it too, but he refused to act, imperiling the entire region. Rush told me that.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 09, 2006 at 10:22:49 AM EST
    There isnt an official right wing cover story that ppj dosnt buy hook, line, and sinker the way Falwell & co promulgate the "literal" truth of the Bible.

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 11:50:51 AM EST
    Finally the truth comes out about the weird box protruding under Bush's suit jacket. via robot wisdom

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 12:52:54 PM EST
    Squeaky - Shame on you. You know you're encouraging and increasing the moral of the terrists when you leak national security secrets that everyone knows about. We would have won by now if you hadn't linked to that. You know that, right?

    Re: Friday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 10, 2006 at 12:58:55 PM EST
    oops! Sorry edger, and sorry America. I thought that he was being controlled by terrorists. Did not know that those german spies were on our side.