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What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard Hofstadter, Abraham Lincoln and FDR

(Guest posted by Big Tent Democrat)

Richard Hofstadter was the most perceptive observer of our political history since DeToqueville. So perceptive was Hofstadter that even though he passed away 36 years ago, he still is more clear headed and penetrating than some of our finest current historians. Professor Sean Wilentz, one of our finest living historians and an extremely gifted writer, has written a wonderful quasi-review of a newly released biography of Hofstadter by David S. Brown that demonstrates his gifts while also showing that even the best we have today do not measure up to Hofstadter. Even Wilentz graciously recognizes this:

David S. Brown claims in this illuminating biography, Hofstadter retains an enormous mystique today, thirty-six years after his death from leukemia at the age of fifty-four. Phrases and concepts that Hofstadter invented to describe and to analyze American politics--"status anxiety," "the paranoid style"-- remain in currency among high-end journalists and pundits. His best books, The American Political Tradition and The Age of Reform, remain on graduate reading lists decades after their publication, models of dazzling prose and interpretive acuity. All but one of his half-dozen other major works remain in print.

In some respects, indeed, Hofstadter's standing has risen since 1970. His fascination with the history of what he called "political culture," the quirks in American politics beyond official platforms and speeches, is now very much in vogue. And no historian of the United States with the same combination of intellectual heterodoxy, literary brilliance, and scholarly sweep has replaced him. Amid the current dizzy political scene--with its snake-oil preachers, and anti-Darwinian Social Darwinists, and Indian casino rip-off artists, and a president whose friends say he thinks he is ordained by God--Hofstadter's sharpness about the darker follies of American democracy seems more urgently needed than ever.

Indeed, understanding Hofstadter is desperately needed. And not just by historians. By pundits, politicians, bloggers and citizens. Because failing to understand Hofstadter's analysis causes us to fail as analysts, historians, pundits and, most importantly, as politicians, especially politicians like Barack Obama.

In his great piece, Wilentz writes an amazingly two obtuse sentences:

Looking back, they appear, in keeping with the political trends of their formative and middle years, to have badly overestimated liberalism's dominance of the American political tradition. Much of their writing through the 1970s did little to prepare readers for the conservative era that was to come.

Given the brilliance of Wilentz's piece, it stupefies to read him saying Hofstadter did little to prepare readers for the conservative era that was to come. For if there is one thing that can safely be said about Hofstadter it is that he absolutely described how the conservative movement would come to power. And how it has remained in power.

Wilentz himself writes:

[Hofstadter] became especially agitated in 1964 when the Goldwater campaign raised, in his mind, the specter of a new radical right that, he wrote in The New York Times, had already forced the Republican Party to surrender meekly, if only temporarily, "to archaic notions and disastrous leadership." Hofstadter took great--and, as it happened, premature--satisfaction when Goldwater lost in a landslide. He was overly confident in America's permanent liberal aegis.

The change in the historical questions that he asked grew from the widespread concerns of liberals and leftists shaken by the devastation of both fascism and Stalinism abroad, and, in time, by the success of Joseph R. McCarthy and other right-wing demagogues at home. The first substantial response from the young historians, Arthur Schlesinger Jr.'s The Vital Center, appeared in 1948--a political defense of what Schlesinger called "the free left" against the pro-Soviet fellow traveling exemplified by the Henry Wallace Progressive Party campaign of the same year. Hofstadter, at Columbia, was more attracted to the theorizing of diverse social scientists (including the Columbia sociologists Daniel Bell, Robert Merton, and C. Wright Mills) about the relative importance of psychological and even irrational factors in social life. Amid the McCarthyite eruptions of the early and mid-1950s, Hofstadter immersed himself in his friends' and colleagues' debates on the effects of symbolism, "status," and "latent functions" in political life, sometimes spurred by the writings of (among others) Freud, Mannheim, and Adorno. But Hofstadter's thinking also drew on his old suspicions, dating back to his days studying with Julius Pratt, that psychological and emotional pressures explained as much and maybe more about the past than economics did. He brought all those interests to bear in The Age of Reform.

What Wilentz unwittingly demonstrates is that far from failing to predict the conservative resurgence, Hofstadter in fact even predicted the political devices that conservatism would use to gain that power. And to maintain that power. From Nixon's appeal to the "silent majority" to Karl Rove's drive to save the country from gay marriage, Hofstadter anticipated the use of paranoia and status by conservatives in their drive for power.

The Age of Reform remains Hofstadter's most impacting academic work and presages his most famous writing the article "The Paranoid Style In American Politics." Wilentz writes:

Still one of the most influential books on twentieth-century America, The Age of Reform is a journey through the less savory, often hidden themes in protest and reformist politics from the Populist movement through the New Deal. The Populists come off the worst, driven by economic hardship to endorse all sorts of cranky, conspiratorial, and bigoted notions, some blatantly anti-Semitic, about the sources of rural oppression. Although every bit as commercially minded as other Americans, Hofstadter charged, the rebel farmers wrapped themselves in the fanciful mantle of the injured little Jeffersonian yeoman--an illusion that left Populism vulnerable to crude social nostrums and an anxious, destructive self-righteousness. Hofstadter saw the Progressive movement, at least at its core, as a collection of displaced patricians and intellectuals, fretful about their own social status. The Progressives were less flamboyantly conspiracy-prone than the Populists, but they were trapped nevertheless by nostalgic fantasies about restoring their own moral authority, and with it an imagined bygone America with "a rather broad diffusion of wealth, status, and power."

Wilentz takes issue with Hofstadter, arguing that:

Subsequent studies of Progressivism found that Hofstadter's sweeping claims about the loose-knit movement's motives and social origins were greatly simplified. More broadly, Hofstadter's efforts to make his material cohere into a dichotomy of "interest" versus "status" were far too pat, slighting the power of ideals about fairness and justice that had nothing to do with either economic self-interest or status anxieties.

With due respect to Wilentz, I believe he entirely misses Hofstadter's point - the language of "fairness and justice" were wonderful vehicles for selling tools for paranoia and self-righteousness. What better example than Joe McCarthy himself? Or Ronald Reagan? Or George W. Bush?

Wilentz misunderstands the power of what Digby calls resentment tribalism, and with permission, I will quote the piece at length:

I wrote about this tribal divide sometime back and I agree with Matt's analysis. This has its genesis in the original sin of slavery and is best illustrated by the fact that as the country has divides itself distinctly between the parties in a 50/50 fashion, the dividing line continues to fall along the same lines of the old confederacy. Once again, the best way to understand this is to go right to the heart of the beast and quote the first Republican president (who hailed from one of the bluest of blue states) Abraham Lincoln at the Cooper Union in New York in 1860:

And now, if they would listen - as I suppose they will not - I would address a few words to the Southern people.

I would say to them: - You consider yourselves a reasonable and a just people; and I consider that in the general qualities of reason and justice you are not inferior to any other people. Still, when you speak of us Republicans, you do so only to denounce us a reptiles, or, at the best, as no better than outlaws. You will grant a hearing to pirates or murderers, but nothing like it to "Black Republicans." In all your contentions with one another, each of you deems an unconditional condemnation of "Black Republicanism" as the first thing to be attended to. Indeed, such condemnation of us seems to be an indispensable prerequisite - license, so to speak - among you to be admitted or permitted to speak at all. Now, can you, or not, be prevailed upon to pause and to consider whether this is quite just to us, or even to yourselves? Bring forward your charges and specifications, and then be patient long enough to hear us deny or justify.

[...] Some of you admit that no Republican designedly aided or encouraged the Harper's Ferry affair, but still insist that our doctrines and declarations necessarily lead to such results. We do not believe it. We know we hold to no doctrine, and make no declaration, which were not held to and made by "our fathers who framed the Government under which we live." You never dealt fairly by us in relation to this affair. When it occurred, some important State elections were near at hand, and you were in evident glee with the belief that, by charging the blame upon us, you could get an advantage of us in those elections. The elections came, and your expectations were not quite fulfilled. Every Republican man knew that, as to himself at least, your charge was a slander, and he was not much inclined by it to cast his vote in your favor ... In your political contests among yourselves, each faction charges the other with sympathy with Black Republicanism; and then, to give point to the charge, defines Black Republicanism to simply be insurrection, blood and thunder among the slaves.

Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events.

This, plainly stated, is your language. Perhaps you will say the Supreme Court has decided the disputed Constitutional question in your favor. Not quite so. But waiving the lawyer's distinction between dictum and decision, the Court have decided the question for you in a sort of way. The Court have substantially said, it is your Constitutional right to take slaves into the federal territories, and to hold them there as property. When I say the decision was made in a sort of way, I mean it was made in a divided Court, by a bare majority of the Judges, and they not quite agreeing with one another in the reasons for making it; that it is so made as that its avowed supporters disagree with one another about its meaning, and that it was mainly based upon a mistaken statement of fact - the statement in the opinion that "the right of property in a slave is distinctly and expressly affirmed in the Constitution."

Under all these circumstances, do you really feel yourselves justified to break up this Government unless such a court decision as yours is, shall be at once submitted to as a conclusive and final rule of political action?

But you will not abide the election of a Republican president! In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! That is cool. A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!"

To be sure, what the robber demanded of me - my money - was my own; and I had a clear right to keep it; but it was no more my own than my vote is my own; and the threat of death to me, to extort my money, and the threat of destruction to the Union, to extort my vote, can scarcely be distinguished in principle.

A few words now to Republicans. It is exceedingly desirable that all parts of this great Confederacy shall be at peace, and in harmony, one with another...Judging by all they say and do, and by the subject and nature of their controversy with us, let us determine, if we can, what will satisfy them.

Will they be satisfied if the Territories be unconditionally surrendered to them? We know they will not. In all their present complaints against us, the Territories are scarcely mentioned. Invasions and insurrections are the rage now. Will it satisfy them, if, in the future, we have nothing to do with invasions and insurrections? We know it will not. We so know, because we know we never had anything to do with invasions and insurrections; and yet this total abstaining does not exempt us from the charge and the denunciation.

The question recurs, what will satisfy them? Simply this: We must not only let them alone, but we must somehow, convince them that we do let them alone. This, we know by experience, is no easy task. We have been so trying to convince them from the very beginning of our organization, but with no success. In all our platforms and speeches we have constantly protested our purpose to let them alone; but this has had no tendency to convince them. Alike unavailing to convince them, is the fact that they have never detected a man of us in any attempt to disturb them.

These natural, and apparently adequate means all failing, what will convince them? This, and this only: cease to call slavery wrong, and join them in calling it right. And this must be done thoroughly - done in acts as well as in words. Silence will not be tolerated - we must place ourselves avowedly with them. Senator Douglas' new sedition law must be enacted and enforced, suppressing all declarations that slavery is wrong, whether made in politics, in presses, in pulpits, or in private. We must arrest and return their fugitive slaves with greedy pleasure. We must pull down our Free State constitutions. The whole atmosphere must be disinfected from all taint of opposition to slavery, before they will cease to believe that all their troubles proceed from us.

Lincoln had a keen understanding of the problem and he logically framed it in moral terms regarding the subject at hand, slavery. As it turns out this was not simply about slavery. It was about a deep and abiding tribal divide in the country that was originally defined by slavery but metastasized into something far beyond it, even then. Southern 'exceptionalism' was always justified by its culture, which was assumed to be unique and unprecedented.

You can apply Lincoln's arguments to any number of current issues and come out the same. There is an incoherence of principle that we see in every section of the republican party, the willingness to call to States Rights (their old rallying cry) when it suits them and a complete abdication of the principle once they hold federal power --- while still insisting that they believe in limited government! They blatantly misconstrue the plain meaning of long standing constitutional principles and federal policies (such as Brit Hume's abject intellectual whorishness in the matter of FDR's beliefs about social security privatization) and show irrational, rabid anger at any disagreement. They see Democrats as 'traitors' fighting for the other side, just as the Southerners of the 1850?s accused the 'Black Republicans' of fomenting slave revolts. They brook no compromise and instead repay those who would reach out to them with furious perfidy unless they show absolute fealty to every facet of the program. It is loyalty to "the cause", however it is defined and however it changes in principle from day to day, that matters.

. . . The civil war and Jim Crow deepened it and the Lost Cause mythology romanticized it. The civil rights movement crystallized it. A two hundred year old resentment has created a permanent cultural divide.

This explains why the dependence on hyper-religiosity (and the cloak of social protection it provides) along with the fervent embrace of "moral values" is so important despite the obvious fact that Republicans are no more "moral" in any sense of the word than any other group of humans. It explains the utopian martial nationalism. And although that map shows that the regional divide is still quite relevant (and why the slave states fought for the Electoral College at the convention) it explains why this culture has now manifested itself as a matter of political identity throughout much of the country. Wherever resentment resides in the human character it can find a home in the Republican Party. This anger and frustration stems from a long nurtured sense of cultural besiegement, which they are finding can never be dealt with through the attainment of power alone. They seek approval. . . .

They seek approval. And it is here where Digby has aptly applied the lessons of Richard Hofstadter and where Senator Barack Obama, most notably in his latest speech on faith has not and needs to:

For some time now, there has been plenty of talk among pundits and pollsters that the political divide in this country has fallen sharply along religious lines. Indeed, the single biggest "gap" in party affiliation among white Americans today is not between men and women, or those who reside in so-called Red States and those who reside in Blue, but between those who attend church regularly and those who don't.

Conservative leaders, from Falwell and Robertson to Karl Rove and Ralph Reed, have been all too happy to exploit this gap, consistently reminding evangelical Christians that Democrats disrespect their values and dislike their Church, while suggesting to the rest of the country that religious Americans care only about issues like abortion and gay marriage; school prayer and intelligent design.

Democrats, for the most part, have taken the bait. At best, we may try to avoid the conversation about religious values altogether, fearful of offending anyone and claiming that - regardless of our personal beliefs - constitutional principles tie our hands. At worst, some liberals dismiss religion in the public square as inherently irrational or intolerant, insisting on a caricature of religious Americans that paints them as fanatical, or thinking that the very word "Christian" describes one's political opponents, not people of faith. (Emphasis supplied.)

So Obama acknowledges the divide, acknowledges the Republican exploitation of this "status resentment" and chooses to respond by embracing it and "apologizing," so to speak, on behalf of Democrats:

We first need to understand that Americans are a religious people. 90 percent of us believe in God, 70 percent affiliate themselves with an organized religion, 38 percent call themselves committed Christians, and substantially more people believe in angels than do those who believe in evolution.

. . . The path I traveled has been shared by millions upon millions of Americans - evangelicals, Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Muslims alike; some since birth, others at a turning point in their lives. It is not something they set apart from the rest of their beliefs and values. In fact, it is often what drives them. This is why, if we truly hope to speak to people where they're at - to communicate our hopes and values in a way that's relevant to their own - we cannot abandon the field of religious discourse.

Because when we ignore the debate about what it means to be a good Christian or Muslim or Jew; when we discuss religion only in the negative sense of where or how it should not be practiced, rather than in the positive sense of what it tells us about our obligations towards one another; when we shy away from religious venues and religious broadcasts because we assume that we will be unwelcome - others will fill the vacuum, those with the most insular views of faith, or those who cynically use religion to justify partisan ends.

In other words, if we don't reach out to evangelical Christians and other religious Americans and tell them what we stand for, Jerry Falwell's and Pat Robertson's will continue to hold sway.

Obama has learned nothing from Lincoln and nothing from Hofstadter. As wonderfully talented a politician he is, until he does, he will not best serve the interests of progressives and the Democratic Party.

To conclude this piece, I want to discuss one overlooked insight of Hofstadter that is highlighted and yet curiously devalued by Professor Wilentz. To me it holds one of the central principles of a triumphant liberalism, one that even today's conservatives can not challenge:

The Age of Reform's greatest achievement, often overlooked, is in its reappraisal of the New Deal, reviving and reinforcing the more positive passages in The American Political Tradition. Whereas most historians (and many New Dealers) saw Roosevelt's reforms as a continuation of Populism and Progressivism, Hofstadter affirmed the New Deal as a sharp break with the past. The old sentimental, quixotic, and self-deluding forays against capitalism gave way to Keynesian policy and the provision of social welfare. Nineteenth-century individualism and anti-monopolism fell before a fuller appreciation of the inevitable size and scope of American business. Cities and urban life, including the party political machines, which had been the bane of Jeffersonian liberalism, became an accepted, even vaunted element in the New Deal coalition. Under FDR, in short, American liberalism came of age.

Following the long-term abandonment, at least philosophically, of New Deal liberalism by both major political parties, Hofstadter's account of the New Deal's spirit repays a new look--not as an exercise in nostalgia but in order to help recover and refurbish a suppressed but still essential American political tradition. As was his wont, Hofstadter overstated his case, underestimating both the intense social conflicts that helped push the reforms forward and the degree to which Progressive ideas (particularly in the area of labor reform) guided New Deal thinking. But simply by identifying the change and by portraying what Hofstadter called the New Deal's "chaos of experimentation" as a sign of vibrancy, not weakness, The Age of Reform concisely defined the transformation of modern American liberalism, two years before Schlesinger took up the issue, in much greater detail, in The Crisis of the Old Order, 1919-1933. For that, apart from everything else, Hofstadter's book retains some of its old luster--and has even acquired a new urgency.

Wilentz is both incisive and dull in this passage. Incisive in recognizing the sharp break that the New Deal represented and dull in misunderstanding that while the ideals of the progressive movements that predated The New Deal nourished it, the fundamental rethinking of the role of government, particularly the federal government was, in many ways, revolutionary. I think Professor Bruce Ackerman's conception of a "Constitutional Moment" best describes it.:

Under [President Bush]'s leadership, the American people would have initiated a new constitutional order that had self-consciously repudiated the regime founded by Franklin Delano Roosevelt; the era of Social Security and the United Nations was now dead, and the Court was going to build a new constitutional system based on very different premises.

There would have been nothing unprecedented in this scenario. This was precisely how Roosevelt created the modern constitutional regime in the first place. His eight appointments to the Supreme Court repudiated the laissez-faire constitutionalism of the preceding era and created the activist national government we know today. Indeed, if the New Deal-Great Society regime is going to die, there is a certain propriety in seeing it killed in precisely the same manner in which it was born.

To be sure, Roosevelt had far greater popular support in triggering his constitutional revolution than Bush could ever claim. When he filled his first seat with Justice Hugo Black in 1937, 76 out of 96 senators were New Deal Democrats. The New Deal Court's repudiation of laissez-faire constitutionalism proceeded with the support of majorities in every region of the country. This obviously would not be true today, even if the president's dreams had been fulfilled.

Professor Ackerman's theory is more complex than this short description - it requires the book length treatment he has given it. But the significance is the same. FDR changed our philosophy of government and the FDR liberal philosophy remains that which we follow today.

How did FDR do it and can Democrats defend FDR liberalism today? Maybe not by calling it FDR liberalism but they surely can and do when they have the courage of their convictions. The most prominent of these instances was the fight to save Social Security Faced with Media hostility, Republican demagogy and flat out lies, Democrats rallied to the FDR liberalism banner and crushed the Republican attempts to roll back the clock. FDR would have been proud of Democrats in that fight. No triangulation. Good old fashioned political populism won the day.

And that is FDR's lesson for Obama. Politics is not a battle for the middle. It is a battle for defining the terms of the political debate. It is a battle to be able to say what is the middle.

And I believe Hofstadter recognized this as well. Hofstadter understood what was liberalism's triumphs and how they were achieved and how they could be defeated. Hofstadter would have understood so well that the Republican triumphs since Goldwater are not ideological "ideas" victories but rather victories of the psychological paranoid style - the "What Is The Matter With Kansas" question.

FDR governed as a liberal but politicked like a populist. When LBJ rightly and to his everlasting credit removed one of the Dem pillars of paranoia - racism, the GOP co-opted populist racism, added the Jeffersonian notion of government and institutional hatred, throw in a dash of paranoid Red scare, now terrorism scare, and you get political victories.

The lesson of Hofstadter is to embrace liberal governance and understand populist politics. It may sound cynical, but you must get through the door to govern. Lincoln knew this. FDR knew this. Hofstadter knew this. I hope Obama can learn this.

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    Oh goodness, what a post. This is the long-story version of what it means to "win." Electorally, personally, politically, etc. I just read LBJ's speech regarding the Voting Rights Act. I teared up. I don't do that. Thank you Charlie Pierce. It is impossible to throw tactics out the window, but every attempt to embrace ideas and not tactics is much appreciated by this guy. Actual passion seems to carry the day every time, not calculated "positions." Again, what a post.

    Oh my ... I'm speechless.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#4)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 06:46:52 AM EST
    And that is FDR's lesson for Obama. Politics is not a battle for the middle. It is a battle for defining the terms of the political debate. It is a battle to be able to say what is the middle. Many moderates in this country vote both parties over time. Many moderate Dems voted for Reagan. Clinton, by staying centrist, got them back. As Deconstructionist and others here have implied, "extreme" views like drug decriminalization, organized workforces and third parties will never fly here again as long as the conservatives control all three wings of the government. Too bad we were too greedy and stupid to realize the flaw of international economic extortion backed by nukes. Man those nukes sure make life easy, don't they? That was all before 2000 when elections were no longer decided by voters. Now the world is in the sh***er thanks to the neoconservative imperialists and the selfish sheeple moderates who follow along. They are too afraid to use their imagination and too cowardly to make some serious sacrifices to save the f'ing planet, and their precious white lineage. Look around people. I love a good morning rant. OTW

    From FDR through Johnson, the "common man" could have little doubt that the party committed to promoting his economic well-being was the Democrats. That wasn't spin, that wasn't framing the issues, that was the plain truth. Rather than talking about appearing to be "populist" while governing liberal, why don't we re-examine what it means to be "liberal." Liberals didn't need to worry so much about appearances when our primary goal was advancing the econonic and social well-being of the poor and middle class. Our problem is we have allowed special interests and extemists to push what should still be our primary goal into the background. That makes it easy for Republicans to get people to vote against their own personal economic interests because they preceive that difference as slight and understandably so given Democratic actions and inactions over the last 25 years. If people are not convinced that Democrats will not really do much that improves their economic well-being and security then they will continue to vote for those who exploit emotional social issues to their advantage. You don't need to change your position on emotional social issues but until we cease being (not just perceived as but being) a Party overly dominated by narrow interest groups with often unpopular social agenda and no longer willing to fight for blue collar workers we will have trouble ever winning nationally except if the Republican self-destruct. The best way to project an image is to make it a true image. People are not stupid and they know when all they are hearing is empty rhetoric.

    "and that is FDR's lesson for Obama. Politics is not a battle for the middle. It is a battle for defining the terms of the political debate." Exactly. Politicians like Obama, the Clintons, Schumer, Biden, and Kerry are surfers. They go with the flow and try to eke out small victories against large odds. We need to stop riding waves and start making them ourselves. (And this is part of why Lieberman must go.) Obama's intimation, that everything would be fine and dandy if Progressives would only "reach out" to evangelicals is entirely misguided. What does he think Democratic politicians have been doing for the past 30 years? We've put two religious Southern governors in the White House and that has done absolutely nothing to stem the delusional self-righteousness of the rabid right wing, or the pompous, self-satisfied elitism of the Brit Humes and George Wills. Right now the fundamental building blocks of the United States are in disrepair. Caving on the small issues like church in school or torture at Gitmo does not help anybody. At some point we have to move beyond the "their viewpoint is equally valid as ours" comfiness and actually stand up for our beliefs.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 07:40:17 AM EST
    Deconstructionist - Yes and no. I, and I believe millions like me, left the Demos when we were convinced that the party no longer cared about national defense, and that its economic policies were counterproductive. That belief has remained in place for thirty years, and has trumped the fact that I am a social liberal, as I think large numbers of americans are. The Demos choose to continue to demonstrate a lack of national defense concern and no new economic plans/theories/programs... Indeed, despite the fact it has been proven time and again that lowered tax rates cause increased revenues, they are now demanding a tax increase. Perfect for an election year, eh?

    [[The Demos choose to continue to demonstrate a lack of national defense concern and no new economic plans/theories/programs...]] JimakaPPJ: I've been a Republican since 1978, and even I don't buy this crap. This administration weakened our effort in Afghanistan to go after Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11, while ignoring vulnerabilities in our ports, mass transit, chemical facilities and nuclear-power plants. I've got dozens of relatives within nuke range of Charleston harbor, so don't you DARE suggest that the GOP has any monopoly on national defense. Indeed, to judge from appearances, quite the contrary. And if you think the current administration's "economic policy" is good for the country, you're going to love buying your bread with a wheelbarrow full of bills. I'm no fan of tax-and-spend, but I'll take it over borrow-and-spend any day. As for the tax cuts paying for themselves: Sadly, no! The current crop of Democrats does not impress me. But w/r/t to these issues and many others, the current administration horrifies me in terms that resonate perfectly with the reasons why I joined the Republican Party nearly 30 years ago.

    • Good post. Thanks!
    • Obama seems to be the designated heir of the DLC, whose motto is "Just Like Republicans, Only Better". Not the way to win elections -- do you want a real Republican or a fake Republican? (BTW, check out where the DLC gets its funding.)
    • And that is FDR's lesson for Obama. Politics is not a battle for the middle. It is a battle for defining the terms of the political debate. It is a battle to be able to say what is the middle.
      There is no "center". Just another one of those obsolete concepts that Democrats have been losing elections with since 1994.
    • You can nest blockquotes. Makes quotes within quotes much easier to read.


    jimak: Your point about national defense is obviously true as to yourself and no doubt some other voters. Leaving the party is not the way to address that concern. Becoming more active in the Party is. there are plenty of Democrats in and out of office who do not subscribe to the notion that threats to our security are illusory and that the perception of those threats is soley the result of misinformation from widl-eyed war-mongers hungry for oil, etc., etc. I have no illusions that we don't face real threats and threats that require seriousness and vigilance. That said, the current Administration is responding to the threats in an indefensible manner. Even putting aside the "should we have" question about the war in Iraq the "way we have" is absolutely, positively been a disaster. If we were going to fight we needed a united country, fully cognizant of and willing to shoulder the extreme burden we faced. That's a tough sell and the Administration deviously decided not to try for that sell. Instead it expounded a fantasy about masses striving for freedom who just needed and wanted a little help to start on the road to "democracy." Given that fantasy, we were told we could achieve our objectives on the cheap with a commitment of relatively few troops for a relatively short duration. that was barely "sellable." Telling people the reality that this would be a long and costly endeavor with limited chance of success but there were reasons it was necessary and then prevailing over the opposition that disagreed would have been very difficult. but, it's what should have been done. If a consensus for the War based on its real cost could not be reached then we should not be in this war. It's too late for that now. This Administration (and its supporters) should be held to account for what they have done. (In the electoral sense-- I'm not advocating futile impeachment proceedings and I don't think shouting "war criminal" does anything but exacerbate the problem which you identify). Seeking a resolution to Iraq other than indefinite occupation is not andicating responsibility. Certainly, if the Party gets co-opted by the immediate withdrawl crowd we will lose and lose badly at the polls but we need a REAL alternative to this insane policy of keeping a undermanned deployment in a situation where it can do little but preserve a chaotic status quo while taking and inflicting consistent losses. We can and must provide an alternative that people will accept. At this juncture, I seriously doubt other countries will be willing to commit the forces necessary to eliminate the ability of the various insurgency groups (and the "government" forces for that matter) to continue using force against one another. If we withdraw, it will be a bloodbath. Personally, I think we need to bring partition to the table. I've never accepted the premise that a unitary Iraq need be a primary goal for anyone. Even if it was a valid primary goal for us, it sure doesn't seem to be one for people who actually live in Iraq. I know Turkey doesn't want a "Kurdistan." I know a Shia state is likely to become closely aligned with if no co-ppted entirely by Iraq. I know there is no guarantee a three state arrangement will work. but, what else is there that is possible? I think we need to bite the bullet. INCREASE our "short-term" (I'm talking years not months) commitment of troops and establish talks between the factions aimed at some degree of orderly transfer of people and wealth to facilitate the establishment of new states and then I think we could prevail upon the international community to provide troops to protect the new borders and preserve some greater degree of peace and security.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#11)
    by nolo on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:12:08 AM EST
    Liberals didn't need to worry so much about appearances when our primary goal was advancing the econonic and social well-being of the poor and middle class. Our problem is we have allowed special interests and extemists to push what should still be our primary goal into the background.
    Please identify the "special interests and extremists" of whom you speak.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:20:35 AM EST
    Lex - Whether or not you are a Repub has nothing to do with the validity of your opinion regarding the Iraqi war. 9/11 assured the end of Saddam. Based on the information available Bush had no choice but to invade. As to "dare." Sir, I not only dare, I challenege. Name me some national stage Demos that can be described as strong on defense. And you might go back to the start of Bush's tax cuts and measure forward, not, as many are trying to do, going back to 2001, when the cuts were not in place. All in all Lex, I think you are just kidding us with your claim to be a Repub. Perhaps you can show a record of supporting some of the current Repub positions? Right now you look like a weak on defense strong on tax increases Demo to me... You know, walk like a duck, quack like a duck, swim like a duck...

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:46:51 AM EST
    The repubs are so interested in securing our defense and security that yesterday they blocked Bidens attempt to allocate 1.1 billion for railroad safety, not a bad idea given the recent bombings, but the repubs would have none of it.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#16)
    by desertswine on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:52:38 AM EST
    The repubs are so interested in securing our defense and security...
    I think their main concern is in securing their fortunes.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#17)
    by ntnelson on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:53:33 AM EST
    Wow! As a Republican it is quite encouragin to read some of these posts. Many of you seem to believe that moving to the middle and courting evangelicals is a bad idea. (Rick D.) And "Rick D." do you really think that Democratic politicians have been reaching out to Evangelicals the past 30 years? Come on!! If you think putting forth Bill Clinton as you POTUS nominee will win over Evangelical Christian voters you are very misguided. Any President who puts the likes of R.B. Ginsburg and Steven "foreign precedent" Breyer on the Supreme Court, is not going to win over the Christian right. If you Dem's want to take back control of the country, all you need to do is change/moderate your positions on 3 issues: 1. Be willing to allow most restriction on abortion (parental consent, spousal consent, no partial-birth abortion, and ABSOLUTELY NO GOVERMENT FUNDING OF ABORTION). You can continue to keep abortion legal, but follow the polls on where America stands regarding certain restrictions. 2. Support the Second Amendment. Are you guys more concerned about taking away and/or registering most guns than you are about controlling our government. There are many individuals that I know who only vote for Republicans because of the gun issue. In fact, for me, this is one of the 3 reasons I will not ever vote for a democrat. If Al Gore and John Kerry were not so hostile to gun rights, I have absolutely no doubt one of them would be President today. Wouldn't you have rather had them concede the gun issue and control the White House? Think about it, you concede the gun issue and in return, you get: Democratic appointed judicial nominations, increased environmental protections, no tax cuts for the rich, possibly no war in Iraq, possible increased minimum wage, possibly more health care for the underprivileged, and I could go on. Doesn't that sound like a nice trade off? 3. Do not support same sex marriage. The reality is, the polls are just against you guys on this issue! I have no doubt that if you conceded these three issues, you would control our goverment as we speak. In fact, all you may have to do is start supporting the Second Amendment and you can control this goverment. But then again, maybe having an anti second amendment, pro NARAL, pro gay marriage platform is more important than having any power. I'd think about it.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#18)
    by aw on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:54:51 AM EST
    "Rule or Ruin" should be the motto of today's Republican party. It would be honest, at least.

    Tax cut bill signed June 7, 2001, we got our rebates before September.
    9/11 assured the end of Saddam.
    Why he had nothing to do with it?
    Based on the information available Bush had no choice but to invade.
    No, he had a choice. Clinton had the same info and he didn't invade. You can continue to spin, but you will never be able to spin Bush's policies into competency.
    Name me some national stage Demos that can be described as strong on defense.
    Murtha, Kerry, Clinton, Liberman, etc. Remember Bosnia. Clinton managed to remove Milosevicto and stop the killings without destroying their country and killing 2,546 of our men and women. During Clinton's administration when planes were off course, the Air Force was quickly sent to check it out before they could crash into to things!

    Wilentz misunderstands the power of what Digby calls resentment tribalism, and with her permission, I will quote her piece at length Digby's a she ? [TL: I checked with the author and s/he does not know Digby's gender as they only communicate by e-mail so I have changed that part of the post.]

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#12)
    by Aaron on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 09:16:52 AM EST
    What abject nonsense into even the shortest of your remarks. *** The Demos choose to continue to demonstrate a lack of national defense concern and no new economic plans/theories/programs... *** In case you aren't informed enough to realize this, we won in Iraq with Clinton's military. Were you paying attention (rhetorical - obviously you weren't) in the election when Gore proposed a larger increase in military spending than Bush? Were you paying attention (again, rhetorical) when Rumsfeld announced the plan for reinventing the U.S. armed forces - a plan which was scrapped after 9/11 for reasons an informed person might find obvious? Did you Miss Condi describing the Memo that your hero, GW, also somehow managed to disregard in advance of 9/11, warning of Bin Laden's intentions to attack within the U.S.? Obviously so. In case you somehow didn't know this, Bush inherited a large budget surplus from Clinton (who in turn inherited a fiscal disaster from GW I), and had turned that back into the record deficits of the Republicans who preceded Clinton. The middle class did very well under Clinton, and is sqeezed under GW's return to trickle-down economics. (His dad called it voodoo economics. You call it what? Ostensibly "new", and thus good?) *** Indeed, despite the fact it has been proven time and again that lowered tax rates cause increased revenues, they are now demanding a tax increase*** You do realize that this was a joke , don't you? It's fun to channel Grover Norquist, but fundamentally your argument is idiotic.

    JimakaPPJ said:
    Based on the information available Bush had no choice but to invade.
    There was no RELIABLE evidence that Iraq posed an immediate threat. The Bush administration cherry-picked and manipulated the intelligence to support their choice to invade.
    Name me some national stage Demos that can be described as strong on defense.
    Murtha. He's always supported our men and women in uniform. Sometimes the best defense is to acknowledge that your actions are doing more harm than good, and change course.
    And you might go back to the start of Bush's tax cuts and measure forward, not, as many are trying to do, going back to 2001, when the cuts were not in place.
    No, sorry, the whole "tax cuts increase tax revenues" canard goes back a long way, and has been repeatedly disproven.
    ...I think you are just kidding us with your claim to be a Repub. Perhaps you can show a record of supporting some of the current Repub positions?
    True Repubs are horrified by a lot of the current Repub positions. You sound like a neo-con to me, JimakaPPJ ... You know, talk like a fascist, walk like a fascist... but perhaps you can show a record of supporting some positions based on a basic grasp of reality? And ntnelson said:
    I have no doubt that if you conceded these three issues [abortion rights, gun control, gay marriage], you would control our goverment as we speak.
    No, if we conceded these three issues, we'd be rubber-stamp Repubs. Nice try.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#22)
    by ntnelson on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 09:49:06 AM EST
    Grand_Moff_Texan I appreciate your conclusory statements and name calling very much, but I wish that they would not be a substitute to actual discussion of issues. Again, this is why your party is having a difficult time finding credibility with the American people. Additionaly, I'm not sure if we are courting the disembowled mouse vote, but I hope that your sharp wit can be developed into more coherent arguments about issues, rather than personalities. First, I don't think that an opinion which stands for the proposition that the states should be able to decide the abortion issue is all that extreme. I'm not the most "pro-life" individual you will ever meet, but I have a hard time accepting the argument that "liberty = a woman right to abort a fetus" (generally citing Roe). If Bush is able to put one or two more S.C. Justices on the bench (or McCain after 08') I wonder if you guys will still be so supportive of the notion that the constitution is a "living, breathing document." Conservative judges could also have a lot of fun finding conservative constitutional rights from the word "liberty"!!! Secondly, Dean is borderline pro-gun. Furthermore, there are several Democrats who are pro-gun and who have recieved and A rating from the NRA. So you obviously have no clue what your talking about when you say "they'll still tell you we're anti gun." The truth is, your party as a whole is anti gun. Third, if you want to continue to let us slaughter you at the polls until the American people fully support your position on gay marriage, that's just fine with me!! However, the way things are going, you might want to try and speed up that process. Bill Clinton was right, Americans want a debate of ideas, not insults. I hope that both sides can live by that concept. It's dissapointing that we still have to throw around "Rove" or "Cult" labels to an attempt at a serious discussion regarding the issues that we as Americans face today. When you become more mature at analyzing issues, please post back.

    Wonderful post, BTD; definitely worth a bookmark. P.S. Tax cuts have never once increased revenue. The WSJ (hardly a liberal paper) just had an article on how the cumulative effect of the 2003 tax cuts was going to be about 1/10 the budget shortfall from revenues lost by the same tax cuts. The idea that the recent small increase in revenues is because of the tax cuts is a blatant example of the Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc logical fallacy. Come back next year after the deficit has grown to $350bb and tell me about how great the tax cut was. Every president in modern times who has cut taxes has ballooned the deficit. Every president in modern times who has raised taxes has improved the deficit. Time for a dose of reality, folks.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#24)
    by ntnelson on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 09:54:35 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ: Hmmm.... So being pro gun, anti gay marriage, pro choice, pro environment, anti war, anti tax cuts for the rich, pro minimum wage increase, pro national health care, pro affirmative action, and anti death penalty, just to name a few, can be considered a rubber stamp Republican? Damn, I've been mistaken all along. I guess it's time for me to find a new party.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#25)
    by scribe on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:00:13 AM EST
    FWIW, this guy evinces all that the Rethugs stand for. The Rules Don't Apply to Him.... But, after reading the article, can someone tell me why any church would need guns?

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#26)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:05:25 AM EST
    Human beings need imaginative leadership. Period. In the post-WWII period, we haven't had anything approaching it, save Eisenhower's farewell speech. And without it, in this highly competetive consumer society, the citizenry serves no polical purpose other than distracted and disinterested acquiescence. We are infinitely more enigmatic and mysterious than than Churchill ever imagined the Soviet Union to be. Until we have a leader who can speak to the nation with the same frank honesty and respect as, say, a comedian speaks to their audience, well, we will remain needlessly deluded about just WHAT poltics is or can be. "Buy buy buy, consume consume consume," that's our mantra. It certainly isn't "think think think". Give me a politician who knows how to write a joke, who understands the real power of free experession (and how it can win over our "enemies"). At the moment, we're lost.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#27)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:07:25 AM EST
    Unfortunatly, ntnelson comes closest to articulating ( above and beyond ppj's Fox/Talk Radio swill), the real reasons why Shrub is in The Whitehouse. God, guns, gays, and abortion. ntnelson - Now if you'd be so kind as to enlighten me as to Jesus's (apparently secret, missing) teachings that pertain specifically to abortion, weapons rights, and homosexuality, I'll have a much clearer understanding of where you're coming from.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#28)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:08:02 AM EST
    WOW! Great post Big Tent Democrat! Lots to chew on and digest. Inspiring to say the least. Your weave of various texts to make a very coherent historical/political point is very fresh. Thank you, and I do hope you send a copy to Obama.
    Hofstadter anticipated the use of paranoia and status by conservatives in their drive for power.
    Obviously ppj has not read the post. The empty rhetoric that Dems are weak on defense is exactly what Lincoln was addressing and what Hofstadter warned about. PPJ and his "social liberal" represents the "resentment tribalism" Digby and Lincoln identify. From his defense of McCarthy as a great man, to his embrace of every bedwetter fantasy spun out today (terror alert color codes, anti-immigrant frenzy, etc.) is particularly representative of the current appeal of victimization as tribal talking point. Sadly this disease, typical of the echo-chamber, is an easy tool for those intent on manipulating the population through scare tactics while at the same time robbing them, and us, blind. The antidote, as BTD sums up, is to define the terms of the debate and a battle to be able to say what is the middle, not fight for the middle with empty rhetoric de jour. FDR's new deal policies is a good starting point, not as nostalgia but as a source of ideas.

    ntnelson -- [snicker] Republicans just *love* to tell Democrats how to win elections, don't they? If by "Evangelicals" you mean the Left Behind crowd, who think Jaysus will Rapture them away from this vale of tears before things get really hairy, no way. If the Dems actually came out against contraception, gun control, and gay marriage , they wouldn't believe them. Would you? If by "Evangelicals" you mean the Spread the Good News crowd, they're starting to realize which party promotes peace, charity, tolerance and all those other Good Things. Many of this crowd have been Democrats all along, like Jimmy Carter. Funny, I don't remember the Bible saying anything at all about contraception, gun control, or gay marriage.

    First of all, I want to say I'm all for extending the right to vote to disembowled [sic] mice. I'm sure they'd support the Dem position on organized labor (they probably wouldn't be disemboweled so often if they were encouraged to organize). Now, with regard to abortion rights, allowing states to violate constitutional civil rights IS extreme. Liberty = women having control of their bodies. And I find it interesting that ntnelson thinks conservative judges would have fun undermining civil liberties. Secondly, it's interesting to hear that our party as a whole is anti-gun. I thought we supported responsible gun ownership. I guess I haven't been reading the memos from the Democratic high command. Third, I seriously doubt the majority of the American people object to marriage between two consenting adults who love each other. Unless the majority of the American people are bigots -- but I haven't found that to be the case. And as for Americans wanting a debate of ideas, not insults
    When you become more mature at analyzing issues, please post back.
    No, that's not insulting in the slightest.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#31)
    by ntnelson on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 10:49:34 AM EST
    First of all, I'm not proclaiming that it is the Evangelicals who are particularly concerned about the gun issue. The gun issue is important to a wide array of people with different backgrounds, socioeconomic status, and religious involvement. This is precisely the reason why your party should atleast move to the middle on this issue. I know a number of people who are not right-wing Republicans who vote solely on the gun issue. This may be hard for some to believe, but it's true. Many "gun voters" are not from the religious right and could be converted to vote for your party. This is a portion of an article from David Keene, a write from www.thehill.com Gun issue could cost Democrats the White House again Liberal Democrats in Congress are getting ready to force their party's presidential nominee down the same road that led to the defeat of Al Gore and his running mate four years ago. In the days following the 2000 election, a number of Democrats realized that their fixation on guns and gun owners had cost their candidates millions of votes that year. Even before leaving office, President Bill Clinton warned that the "gun issue" and the efforts of the National Rifle Association (NRA) had cost Gore five states that he might otherwise have won and, thus, the election. Labor leaders began urging the party to "get the gun issue off the table" after watching droves of their own members desert Democrats they were afraid would restrict their right to own firearms. Regarding the bible's teachings regarding homosexuality, there are few different versus and books of the bible that provide guidance. While I am a law student, and not a pastor, I will attempt to provide a couple examples: Romans 1:26-27 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV) "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Leviticus 18:22 (KJV "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination." Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." There are a number of other versus as well that I could look up, but I frankly don't have the time to do so. I'm sure some of you will try and twist the words of these passages. As far as abortion, that one's easy: "thou shall not kill" lightning: You have a point that even if the Dem's said they had changed their stances, many would not believe them. However, the sooner the Dem's start moderating, the sooner the Evangelicals could trust them. Further, I never said anything about the need to change your stance on contraception. Unless of course you see abortion as merely a means of contraception.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#32)
    by nolo on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:06:24 AM EST
    So, ntnelson, how do you weigh in on the eating of shellfish? (I'm going to refrain from any oysters and snails references, really I am)

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:27:32 AM EST
    Nice link nolo. It points out how religion and fashion are inextricably linked. So much for god's word.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#34)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:36:49 AM EST
    The republican approach to gun control is to disarm the populace during a disaster. A clear violation of their 2nd amendment rights. The only image problems the Dems have is the daily smearing by the media and the lying RNC. that's a tough one-two punch to come back from.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#35)
    by Dadler on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:39:13 AM EST
    Nolo, He'll justify the shellfish issue by invoking it as part of the old covenant, whereas Jesus represents the new covenant. No mind that they'll use that old covenant (Leviticus) for half their Biblical justifications. I graduated from the largest evangelical high school in the country, in Orange County CA, with textbooks from places like Bob Jones University Press. "Dinosaurs, probably small ones, were actually aboard Noah's Ark." This is a quote from my BIOLOGY text. ANYthing can be justified, it HAS to be, or this type of "faith" falls apart, at least to these kinds of believers The mystical/spiritual calling of faith reduced to literal spats about contradictory scripture.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 11:47:47 AM EST
    Nelson - Alot of Paul (the real savior?) and alot of desert tribal rules and regs, but no Jesus. Kinda reminds me of the Jacksonianism minus the words of Jackson that we've been hearing alot about lately.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:08:53 PM EST
    Squeaky - Talk remains cheap. Let's see some examples of your strong on defense Demos. Should be easy. Let's have'em. I have commented time and again that I am for Gay rights and women's rights. You know that because you read this blog. Your comments then are dishonest, and again demonstrate your desire and tactics to smear those you disagree with. Jondee - You too are making dishonest comments re my position on those two issues. In fact Jondee, since you also know otherwise since I have posted otherwise, you are lying through your teeth. et al - This a perfect example of what you think is a good strategy. You take someone who is in agreement on social issues, but run them off because they demand a strong national defense. And give up on thinking that you, or anyone for that matter, can set the subject of the debate. The Internet, talk radio and cable news has defanged the MSM's and their allies in the Demo party, ability to be able to do that. shargash - Since they have no idea how low the revenues would have been had the recession continued, they have nothing but projections and opinions. And opinions are like noses and.... We all have two of'em. Debbie writes:
    Clinton had the same info and he didn't invade
    And Clinton didn't have a direct attack on the US, proving how dangerous the terrorist were, to worry about. As I said. 9/11 sealed Saddam's fate. That and Saddam believing the French, Germans and the Russuians telling him they would protect him. BTW - Try to grasp the logic. Saddam may have been as innocent and pure of the driven snow, which we know he wasn't. But when those people died, it was all over for him. Do you really need the quotes by Demos showing the pressure Bush was hit with?

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:21:07 PM EST
    As I said. 9/11 sealed Saddam's fate.
    saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, (even bush admits that), and no ability to harm us and didn't harbor terrorists and OBL not only was sponsorred by saddam OBL sponsored anti-saddam forces in kurdistan.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#39)
    by glanton on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:22:55 PM EST
    One of Jim's favorite refrains:
    I have commented time and again that I am for Gay rights and women's rights. You know that because you read this blog. Your comments then are dishonest, and again demonstrate your desire and tactics to smear those you disagree with.
    One day, maybe Jim will see how insulting these comments are to those in Uhmerrikah who remain in perpetual danger of having their rights disavowed, shredded, or both. Jim, constantlys assert that the socially conservative voting block is "good folks." Yeah, 'good folks' to him, since they're not trying to criminalize, stigmatize, or badger him. Give ma a straight-up honest bigot any day of the week over this kind of trash. ntnelson by contrast to Jim looks, as they say, absolutely marrrrvelous.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#40)
    by soccerdad on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:28:32 PM EST
    OK I'm now spinning in circles after reading PPJ's latest lets see Dems are weak on Defense But Dems put so much pressure on Bush, implying that was one of the reasons Bush ivaded. PPJ likes the invasion. But the Dems helped force Bush's decision to invade but are still weak on defense. WTF

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#42)
    by ntnelson on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 12:58:38 PM EST
    Uberpatriot: All right, you got me. I must admit I have forgotten that portion of the constitution that says liberty = "women having control of their bodies." I guess I don't have the greatest memory so I'll go back through the bill of rights and find that portion your referring to. Or maybe it doesn't say that, but that kind of language can be found in the Federalist papers, or other documents showing founders intent. To save me some time, could you point out exactly where that language is? I'd really appreciate that. Good luck on your search!! Second, I sincerely hope you don't honestly think your party is legitimately pro gun. I suggest you do a little research on the subject before making such uninformed statements. Finally: Gallup Poll. May 8-11, 2006. N=1,002 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Should Be Valid ShouldNot Be Unsure % % % 5/8-11/06 39 58 4 8/22-25/05 37 59 4

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#43)
    by nolo on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:13:26 PM EST
    ntnelson, be careful where you take your argument. After all, the constitution doesn't say literally that liberty="men having control of their bodies" either.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#44)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:20:32 PM EST
    ppj - You're being dishonest (i.e., continuing to breathe) regarding what I said. Though, now that you mention it, the fact that your hypocritical mouth says that your "for" gay and women's rights, while your much more loudly proclaiming actions prove you perfectly willing to cast your lot in with and willing to defend to the death the faction that embraces and encourages some of the most socially illiberal elements in the country, is an example of why with "friends" like you, gays and women dont need enemies.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:29:27 PM EST
    Sailor - Saddam's previous actions and 9/11 sealed his fate. Try hard and understand the connection. Lex - I'll judge you anytime I please, and I note you have no response besides hiding behind someone's attack. Way to go guy! BTW - Thanks for reminding me re Uber. SD - You obviously have a short memory. This from the 1998 timeframe that Clinton used to attack Iraq.
    "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998
    This from the 2003 btime frame:
    "(W)e need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ...And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War." -- John Kerry, Jan 23, 2003
    As you are well aware, I have many other such quotes. Now. Show me a Demo that is strong on national defense TODAY. They have traded their posturing for hopeful political gain. In a word, they are hypocrites. Glanton - You remain irrational. Show me anywhere I have attacked gay rights. You can't and you know you can't. uberpatriot - You write:
    There was no RELIABLE evidence
    You see, there's this problem with that argument. The President isn't allowed the luxury of debating and debating. If he is wrong, then we may lose NYC. And you should remember that Clinton debated and debated and didn't pick up OBL when he could have. Murtha? Surely you jest. He has abandoned the troops in the midst of battle. Give up on this "He was in Vietnam," argument. So was Kerry. Tax increases? They kill the economy. Ask GHWB. Kennedy, Reagan and Bush have cut taxes and revenues have increased. In all cases, spending also increased, so the net may have been a bigger deficit. Check out recenue growth vs spending under Reagan. If you want to hold the President responsible for spending, give him the line item veto. You will then have him in the spotlight. Like I said to Lex. If you walk like a duck, quack like a duck and swim like a duck, you are a duck. Know what? I bet you have moveon and KOS bookmarked.... Uh-huh. See? I knew it. ;-)

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#46)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:35:38 PM EST
    ppj-since you are pumping the empty rhetoric and fearmongering republican talking points why don't you define what you mean by strong on defense. Clearly the above post defines all you have stood for as long as I have been reading TL. Especially your defense of McCarthy, which you qualify without explanation, not his tactics, but he was right. So what should his tactics been? Along with your milktoast apology you tell us to read "Venona, Decoding Soviet Espionage in America." John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr, well they did not disapprove of McCarthy's methods and are just the sort of conservative ideologues that Hofstadter is talking about. Woo hoo, you are for the rights of women and gays, how new world of you. That doesn't exclude you from your embracement of The Resentment Tribe

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#47)
    by Sailor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:42:01 PM EST
    Try hard and understand the connection.
    one can't understand a connection that does not exist. But what does that have to do with Obama and this post?

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#48)
    by ntnelson on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:51:35 PM EST
    Che's Lounge Are you referring to the confiscation of guns after from New Orleans resident's after Hurricane Katrina. If you are, I just thought I would educate you to the fact that today the senate passed a bill barring such future actions. By the way, only 16 senators voted against the legislation. And believe it or not, all 16 were Democrats.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#49)
    by glanton on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:55:03 PM EST
    Jim you write:
    Show me anywhere I have attacked gay rights. You can't and you know you can't.
    That's right, I can't. Nor is there a place where you bash on women or any other group perpetually under fire from the GOP. Instead you offer all of them crocodile tears saying something to the effect of, I'd love to help you out but..... Which of course is easy for you to do because nobody's trying to criminalize or stigmatize you. Well, on this blog you're stigmatized. Rightfully. As a water carrier. Oh, and btw, ntnelson, keep it up. You're proof that when it comes to gun compounds, you all of a sudden remember there's such a thing as civil liberties. Maybe if we were all rednecks or cultists you'd be freindlier to us too. Stay alert, and stay with Fox.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#50)
    by roy on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 01:55:51 PM EST
    Che & ntnelson, It's also worth noting that the city officials who lied to & stonewalled in court to hide & keep those guns were also predominantly democrats.

    Jim, what do you mean by 'strong national defense'? I think we'd all like to know. 'Cause it seems like you really mean strong national OFFENSE. And that's something progressives understandably can't abide, regardless of your proclaimed stance on social issues. In fact, your seeming hawkishness makes your self-professed support of human rights a little hard to swallow. It reeks of 'Gays and women are okay, but we need to attack the brown people before they attack us.' You seem fixated on the necessity/inevitability of the Iraq invasion, when all evidence points to the contrary. Additionally, you seem unwilling to question the demonstrably false idea that lowered tax rates cause increased revenues. In short, you seem dangerously ignorant and/or unstable. Maybe that's not the case, and if so, it would behoove you to work on your presentation. But until you demonstrate knowledgeable, consistent thought, don't be surprised if it seems like we're 'running you off'. And ntnelson, 1. Liberty -- get a dictionary, get a clue. 2. I do honestly believe my party is, overall, legitimately pro RESPONSIBLE gun ownership. How can anyone be 'pro gun', anyway? (You go, gun!) It that like being... oh, I don't know, pro... meatloaf? Pro... hockeystick? Pro... wrestling? (It's not fake, I swear!) 3. Poll numbers on issues like gay marriage go back and forth all the time depending on how the question is asked. As Mark Twain said, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Oh, and slavery was real popular, too, back in the day.

    Jim, the administration was repeatedly cautioned that the evidence was unreliable. The president should not be allowed the luxury to invade another country on the basis of unreliable evidence. When he is allowed that luxury, we end up with the hell-hole that is Iraq today. And I stand by Murtha. The invasion was a mistake. You don't let soldiers die for a mistake. You don't continue an invasion that's making the world less safe. If that's your idea of defense, you have a serious problem. As for taxes, sorry, I'm not going to let you cherry-pick your data or change your argument. Go back all the way to the end of WWII, and you see that tax cuts do not increase tax revenues (your original proposition). Nor do they have a demonstrably positive effect on the economy. And give the President a line-item veto? Sorry, no, the constitution doesn't allow for that. Nice try. BTW, I don't have moveon & dKos bookmarked. Sadly, No!, rudepundit, firedoglake, crooks&liars, and rawstory, yes, as should everyone.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#53)
    by Sailor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:44:33 PM EST
    It's also worth noting that the city officials who lied
    I'd like to see links to that ... but on an open thread and not this one which is about BigTent's take on Obama.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#54)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:52:31 PM EST
    A good indication of what Jim means by the bumpersticker "Strong On Defense", was his answer when asked by me at this blog if there were any U.S military interventions in 200+ years that he disagreed with. The only one he could come up with was (suprise!) that bleeding heart Clintons intervention in Kosovo.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#55)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 02:59:57 PM EST
    Let's see some examples of your strong on defense Demos. Should be easy. Let's have'em. Example 1. N. Korea 1993-94. Clinton negotiated the Agreed Framework that kept N. Korea off the nuke list for ten years. Then along comes Axis of Evil and now N. Korea is nuclear. Example 2. WTC I occurred 38 days into Clinton's first term so that was Bush I's legacy. Within a year, the masterminds were on trial and ultimatley convicted and are still in prison. Dem = Strong on defense without killing women and children. Bush = Strong on defense by killing anyone who opposes us.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#56)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:20:16 PM EST
    Making it a studied point never to attack people who attack women's and gay rights and then having the sheer audacity to claim that you support those rights, is nothing but hypocrisy and moral cowardice, but it goes fairly far in explaining how the regime changers need the bigots and vice versa.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#57)
    by ntnelson on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:24:56 PM EST
    Liberty: a. The condition of being free from restriction or control. b. The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing. c. The condition of being physically and legally free from confinement, servitude, or forced labor. OK, based on the dictionary definition, where do I begin? First, speed limits are certainly unacceptable as they restrict my liberty. Excessive taxes need to also be ruled unconstitutional because that restricts my freedom to spend MY money on things I want to purchase. Hate speech and hate crimes certainly restrict my liberty because they don't allow me full liberty to say and do what I want. Any law that restricts my right to carry a hand gun (as I'm a non felon with no criminal record) absolutely must be stricken down as such a law would infringe on my liberty to protect myself. Hmmm... to think, we're one or two heart beats away from having a Supreme Court that could grant me these rights. I could go on all day, but hopefully you see my point. If you truly believe that the founders intended for the word liberty to equal such future things as partial birth abortion, then I guess your entitled to that opinion. Unlike you, I have respect for your opinions, but disagree with them. You know what I mean by pro gun. If these gay marriage polls are so up and down, then surely you could find me a recent poll from a non partisan source that shows that Americans support gay marriage. So now you have 2 things to look for. Again, good luck on that one!

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#58)
    by glanton on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 03:56:26 PM EST
    Jondee's 4:20 post says it all. It also has wider application: to, for example, the morally bankrupt libertarian movement. BTW: Someone recently pointed out that GOPers love to give advice on how to win elections. But I'm still waiting for someone to advise one Democratic contender to beat out another by spreading rumors about illegitimate black babies among rural redneckia. [insults to other commenters deleted]

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 04:23:21 PM EST
    Thats alright, the next one's goin in my ear. lol

    ntnelson --
    1. Nobody believes that the "abortion" protests are really about blastocysts. It's about women's control of their own sexuality.

      "Thou shall not commit murder"? (better translation) Circular. Assumes killing a fetus falls under the category of "murder". Not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. (Except possibly Exodus 21:22, which doesn't go your way at all.)

    2. Why bring up guns in the first place?

    3. So God doesn't like gays? Still says nothing about marriage, which is the topic under discussion. You also need to reread Acts 10.



    ntnelson, Why should I respect opinions that are based on nonsense? Civilization mandates that we must all be constrained by our respect for each other's liberty. Thus, I obey speed limits lest I cause an accident and deprive someone of their life, with the attending repercussions. It's a balancing act. So where does the balance lie between a fetus and an adult woman? Hmm... fetus, adult woman... fetus, adult woman... I'm gonna have to go with adult woman. (And don't pull that 'human potential' crap about the fetus. You may as well argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.) Actually, I don't know what you mean by 'pro-gun'. As I pointed out, 'pro-gun' has no meaning. Are you in favor of everyone owning a gun? The manufacture of guns? The worship of guns? Inquiring minds want to know. About the gay marriage poll you cited: What question was actually asked? Did they ask what effect a candidate's stance on gay marriage would have on the respondent's decision to vote for that candidate? That seems to me to be the only germane question. Otherwise it's pure speculation to say that those opposed to gay marriage would not vote for a candidate who supports it. That said, an ABC News poll (uh-oh, it's the Liberal Media) conducted in June shows that 50% of the respondents could vote for a candidate who did not share their views on the issue, 41% could not, and 9% were unsure. And an overview of polls on the issue of gay marriage shows that the numbers are trending toward acceptance. (PollingReport.com)

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#62)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 07:21:43 PM EST
    ntnelson & Roy, You're right. I was under the assumption tht FEMA was responsible for the attempted gun confiscations in NOLA. It actually was Eddie Compass and a few local parish police chiefs, with Nagin denying giving the order. But nothing about FEMA. Do you have a link to the senate bill?

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:03:51 PM EST
    Squeaky - The fact is that we did have Soviet spies. Vernona proves it. So McCarthy was correct in general, but wrong in his numbers, and yes, I think his tactics were wrong. If you have a problem with that...well, just have a problem. What your comment has to do with the subject I have no idea... Uber - You want to seriously contend that tax cuts do not increase revenues....? Good grief. Jondee - I wrote this:
    Posted by JimakaPPJ June 5, 2006 09:11 PM Jondee - Your problem is that in spite of what I have been telling you, you don't believe I'm not a Repub and I'm not a conservative. I like the term social liberal. What you can't get over is that, to you, if someone supports the troops and thinks the war is just, they must be Repubs, stupid, etc. In otherwords you are a single issue person. Very narrow minded, quite uninformed and very incapable of seeing the broad view. All-in-all you basically don't keep up with what people have said and all you want to do is rant. As I have noted before, please do so because it makes you look 100% stupid to the rest of the world. Thanks. Please do it again.


    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#64)
    by glanton on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:18:49 PM EST
    jondee and, for that matter, everyone else who has been frustrated time and again with trying to engage Jim's claims only to be met with posts like the above: We all know there is no point in trying. There are simply people out there who believe they can credibly speak on human rights issues and civil liberties even as they vote for, shill for GOP. Some say they do it because of tax cuts, so for more war. But whatever their spin, they will forever refuse to meet the fact that they offer only crocodile tears for the many who are Othered in Uhmerrikah by the fear mongering GOP and the bigots who make up the foundational base of that party. Of course, the downtrodden would much prefer the company of an open hater than an enabler who speaks sweetly. But the enablers will always live in their own little bubble thinking they are for freedom. Like the honest bigots of the Reagan/Santorum school, these people are best left alone. So I propose that every single one of us who have been frustrated by trying to get somewhere with this internet agitator on Talk left, refuse to give him any more cookies, no matter how inane the provocation, no matter how banal the claim. Stay alert, and stay with Fox.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#65)
    by Sailor on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:31:41 PM EST
    glanton, noted and agreed.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#66)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 14, 2006 at 08:39:12 PM EST
    So McCarthy was correct in general, but wrong in his numbers....
    Another qualification? Aren't you leaving out the damage done to life in America. McCarthyism was a terror campaign waged against the American people. tristero put it best:
    That anyone would be so intellectually dishonest and/or ignorant as to defend McCarthy, that drunken, lying, paranoid, lout or his sleazy familiar, Roy Cohn, is simply beyond belief.
    For a nice short critique of Haynes this is from a review by Ellen Schrecker of "The Cold War Debate Continues: A Traditionalist View of Historical Writing on Domestic Communism and Anti-Communism,"
    McCarthyism did more damage to the constitution than the American Communist party ever did.


    Jim, read my... words: Tax cuts do not increase tax revenues. When taxes are cut, revenues always drop. It's pretty simple -- people pay less tax, gov't gets less money. Revenues then tend to climb, but the increase 1)doesn't make up for the initial shortfall, and 2)can't accurately be traced to the tax cuts (revenues tend to climb with population growth, along with a host of other factors). Tax cuts do tend to spur economic growth in the short term, but the long term effects are unpredictable. So you see, it's dishonest to say that lowered tax rates cause increased revenues. And it's fiscally irresponsible to cut taxes while committing the morally, ethically, legally, and fiscally (again) irresponsible act of prosecuting an unnecessary and counterproductive invasion/occupation.

    wow... Every now and again, someone speaks so precicely... capturing the core principles of critical moments and ideas, that the picture painted by their words can be described as -perfect-. Your post is one of these rare occasions. I have not read or heard anything so complete, accurate or timely since I can remember. What a post!!! AFAIC, your Obama charactarization is almost anecdotal. However, I have mentioned on other blogs my impression that the good Senator's oratorical skills have overshadowed his underlying core principles. This incident further reinforces that notion. In particular, I'm reminded of his frequent absence from the Bolton hearings, a critical matter AFAIC. In the days before Rep. Ohio Senator came out against Bolton, Obama was on Air Force one w/Junior himself, attending a school ribbon cutting ceremony in Texas. There have been similar incidents, all of which bothered me then and bother me now. Anyway, again... marvelous, wonderful & enlightening post. This should be on every progressive blog's front page in perpetuity, as the principles illustrated are fundamentally at play in most everything GWB's cabal does. Wow.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#69)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:59:57 AM EST
    Che - William Jefferson Clinton is no longer President and has no power. You do remember 2000, don't you? uberpatriot - Revenues do drop, and then climb. Since tax cuts are always associated with an existing economic down turn, you have no way of knowing how much revenue would NOT have been collected had the down turn continued. Said another way. To project how much revenue would have been collected you must first estimate what the economy would have been. An estimate is an estimate is an estimate. The actual revenues are real. So you have a guess. I have facts. Attached is a chart showing the effects of the Reagan era tax cuts. You can see that the cuts took about four years to start providing more revenue. Link You also forget that in all cases the economy has improved after the cuts, as it has improved again. And that is what is important. Spending is a separate issue. We both know that our system doesn't work well with continuing veto's, etc., and the political posturing is awesome so any veto to bring down spending never works well. I have seen a Presidential line item veto called both ways. Since the SC decided that a government can seize private property and give it to a developer to build hotels and shoppng centers, only God knows what they would do. As a practical matter, we do have something called "constitutional amendments." I suspect a line item veto would be approved quicker than Ted Kennedy can knock back a drink after a brisk swim. Glanton - Jondee - Since you know that I have never attacked gays, or women's rights, you make a claim that I haven't been critical of Bush. That's hogwash, and if you don't believe me you can find it in the archives. If you don't want to look, that is your problem. Just continue with your inaccurate and outrageous claims. They define you. But if you do search,here is an example of what you will find.
    So if you want to jump on Bush about CAFTA, about gay rights, about his not pushing for National Health care, his immigration policy/illegal aliens, save me a seat on the bus. But time spent at the ranch? No.


    I'm glad to see that PPJ is here to show his paranoid style for all to see. It's true, PPJ, that you have dissented a teeny-weeny bit on aWols' domestic policies vary rarely, but you have always been a BAK when it comes to the WOT, the Iraq fiasco, the N.K. crisis, and you continue to maintain the fiction that your precious Shrub hasn't made any mistakes in regard to any of the above. Oh, and don't read the last comment on the thread PPJ linked to as it's unpatriotic and unAmercian, even if it's true :)

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 11:18:03 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - I support the WOT? Well, yes. Have I ever said otherwise? No. Have I said that I support a broad range of social issues NOT supported by the right and/or Bush? Yes. Have I criticized Bush/Repubs/righties about these social issues? Yes. So what's your problem? Because I support the WOT I must run around condemning Bush? Get real. Since I have been very consistent in this no one, even you, should be confused over my positions. You are merely trying to join in with Jondee and Glanton and ride a strawman created by them. Transparency thy name is Dark Avenger.

    Re: McCarthy. Does anyone deny that there were communists infiltrating our government?

    There is a difference between people with communist beliefs or former Communist Party members working for government and people being enemy agents or disloyal to the United States. Most people have no problem with the identification of and prosecution of people who are agents of an enemy (or even an ally)and who break laws regarding espionage. I'm sure there always have been and probably always will be a few of those in our government. That in no way justifies falsely accusing people of aiding the enemy simply because of their political beliefs. One can have communist beliefs and even have been in a Communist Party and be a loyal and "good" American. One should not be disqualified from government service because years before one was a Party member or was sympathetic to communist causes (and remember being a Communist was viewed differently during the rise of Hitler, the Spanish Civil War and WWII.) Certainly one who writes books, produces plays, makes movies or whatever should not be disgraced by innuendo and deprived of a livelihood by false (or even partially true) attacks and threats to those who might otherwise associate with them. The existence of some few enemy agents also does not justify false claims designed to mislead and inflame the public that agencies of government are controlled by enemy agents working on behalf our enemies. McCarthy had almost nothing to do with "outing" any real enemy agents. that was done almost exclusively by the people and institutions he attacked.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 12:42:26 PM EST
    Dec - The issue, which has been bounced around before, has to do with the fact that I condemn McCarthy's tactics but argue that there were spies. Not just fellow travelers, not just ex-members, but actual spies. On the other hand, the Left has tried to use his tactics to claim that he was wrong about the spies. He wasn't. If you are interested, get a copy of "Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America," by John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr. It is not political, and relies on information for the NSA and the Soviets to build its case. For example it removes any doubt that the Rosenbergs were spies. Venona itself was the name of a secret decoding program during and after WWII in which we broke the Soviet's codes.

    But, he was wrong about the people he accused of being spies and the claim that the State Department (among others) was controlled by them. If I say YOU are aiding terrorist organizations I don't become correct by someone else proving that someone other than you is doing it.

    I have long been convinced that the evidence against the Rosenbergs is compelling. My only remaining complaint there was the executions. I'm pretty well convinced Alger Hiss got what he deserved too, but ththat doesn't justify what McCarthy did. Name one person, McCarthy was the first to accuse of being a spy, against whom you think there is compelling evidence it is true. I'm not condoning acting on behalf of foreign governments and I'm not denying it happens. I'm saying accepting that in no way causes me to condone wwhat mcCarthy did.

    Looking back at my previous comment, I realize I may have been a bit rude to JimmakaWarMonger. All I can say is that he forced me to do that. I felt that our security was threatened by his imminent possibility of verbally abusing everybody in creation. Given the possibility that he might unleash verbal Weapons of Mass Destruction, I felt compelled to launch a pre-emptive strike, even though I had absolutely no evidence that this was his intent or that he had the capability to do so. Pre-emptively kicking ass is the way to go. The rest of you get tax cuts. Bill to come in fifty years.

    I support the WOT? Well, yes. Have I ever said otherwise? No. Being a BAK isn't the same as supporting the WOT, but your attempt to muddy the waters by asserting that the two are equivalent is typical, as any casual perusal of the archives will show to those who care to do a bit of research.. Because I support the WOT I must run around condemning Bush? No, but your refusal to admit to any error committed by Bush in the WOT shows that you are only a syncophant. You've condemned Bush on domestic issues about 1% of the time and effort you've given to attempted and often futile cheerleading for the aWol malAdminstration on its' domestic policy here. Get real That's funny, coming from the guy whose grip on reality can be seen here, so thanks for the laugh on a Saturday.

    read foreign policy for the last domestic in the above. "Even Homer nods."

    I don't quite share the full-throttle admiration for Hofstadter. I share the view of him & his cohort developed by Michael Paul Rogin in The Intellectuals and McCarthy: The Radical Specter and articulated as well in "Ronald Reagan," the Movie: And Other Episodes in Political Demonology. Hofstadter was, in my mind, the ablest justifier of "Cold War" liberalism vs. left liberalism via the plausibility of his narrative. But plausibility does not equal truth. To put it in a nutshell, what I find problematic is the simplistic dichotomizing in Hofstadter's work, the assigning of the "Paranoid Style" to the fringe, rather than the core of American politics. (Many of Rogin's essays in "Ronald Reagan" can be read as case studies against this view.) Yet, there is some truth to the point that there were significant breaks with the previous progressive and populist traditions. This can be seen in the very fact that the Protestant working class joined the New Deal coalition--at least for a while. However, the machine politics that facilitated the New Deal also set limits on it--the "Deal" side as opposed to the "New" side. This is where the Party ran into trouble with the Civil Rights Movement, most notably (but hardly uniquely) in the person of Chicago's Mayor Richard Dailey. (A more minor point: It's also mistaken to attribute the sophistication of Keynsianism to the New Deal. Keynes was not much thought of until after the disastrous attempt to balance the budget in 1938 produced renewed recession. FDR's advisors were much more heterodox, trying whatever seemed promising.) All of this, however, is secondary to the main point of this post, which is undoubtedly absolutely spot on. Which makes me wonder why the debatable historiography was necessary in the first place. It is virtually axiomatic that the essence of political power is the ability to define political terms. Those who have unquestioned political power dictate the terms. Those who have contested political power must negotiate the terms. Those who have no poltiical power can only subvert the terms--as queer activists did in the 80s, for example, turning an epithet into a badge of pride. The fact that Barack Obama--and virtually the entire Democratic establishment--does not know such elementary facts of political life tells us just about everything we need to know about why our country is teetering on the abyss totalitarianism, while they scurry around worrying about us being "shrill."

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 06:44:06 PM EST
    Dec - Read the book. Again. It is possible to condemn his tactics but recognize that his claim was correct. There were spies in the government. Dark Avenger - Equivalent? I never made that claim. But why should they be? Each is own event, capable of standing on its own. Again, what's your point? That you don't like me? Duhhhhh. RickD - How drool.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#83)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 15, 2006 at 07:26:12 PM EST
    ppj - Not all American communists were devoted to or in league with the S.U, even though that was recurrent spin. Alot of them embraced it because in theory it was an internationalist movement that they believed offered some hope towards avoiding WWIII and also because the communist party at that time seemed to be one of the few organizations that took seriously the problems of racism and workers rights.

    Equivalent? I never made that claim I never said you did, PPJ. But why should they be. You should end your questions with a ? if you want to be taken seriously. Folks, this is your brain on Faux Snews, newswacx.com, worldnutdaily.com, etc. Not a pretty sight by any means.....

    off topic reprint from another site deleted

    Posted by ntnelson July 14, 2006 09:53 AM Wow! As a Republican it is quite encouragin to read some of these posts. Many of you seem to believe that moving to the middle and courting evangelicals is a bad idea. (Rick D.) And "Rick D." do you really think that Democratic politicians have been reaching out to Evangelicals the past 30 years? Come on!! If you think putting forth Bill Clinton as you POTUS nominee will win over Evangelical Christian voters you are very misguided. Any President who puts the likes of R.B. Ginsburg and Steven "foreign precedent" Breyer on the Supreme Court, is not going to win over the Christian right.
    I agree with your sentiment. And yes I think the Democrats have been trying to win over the Christian right. And I think we both agree they've been doing so ineffectually. Personally, I think it's a stupid strategy, because the "Christian right" is a minority in the US that will almost certainly vote as a bloc for the Republicans. Pandering to them makes their message stronger. Opposing them is a better way to go, especially because most of their dearly-held beliefs go against the preferences of the majority of Americans. JimakaPPJ: you lost me at pretty much the first sentence. Others: there is no purpose served in debating somebody who still insists that Bush was forced to attack Iraq in 2003. That point of view is so utterly delusional that we're better of pausing, staring, and moving on to somebody a bit more rational. JimakaWarMonger: This is pretty simple. Iraq was not a threat. Even Bush Sr. recognized that. Iraq had no nuclear program active at the time of the invasion and, indeed, hadn't had one for a decade. The containment policy was working.

    Re: What Barack Obama Needs To Learn From Richard (none / 0) (#86)
    by ntnelson on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 07:58:21 AM EST
    Ubber: As far as the balancing test is concerned, you might have a point if your balancing between the life of the mother, and the life of the fetus. However, if your trying to balance between the CONVENIENCE of the mother, and the life of the fetus, then to me, then we must chose life. BTW- you failed to address how my liberty is infringed in the other instances (right to carry a gun to protect myself as one example). Or is wanting to carry a gun to protect myself nonsense as well? I am in favor of non-felons being able to own most guns. In sum, non-felons should be able to possess guns to the point that it empowers the people against our government. With so many on this site distrusting Bush, I would think that you'd like the idea of the people being able to overthrow our government if they became tyranical (like our judiciary). And I don't want to hear that we need nuclear weapons and air planes to be able to fight our government. It's not like our government will use nuclear weapons on its own people. However, if the people are sufficiently armed, it will provide an additional check against our government. Finally, I want the people to be able to defend themselves from other people. These two reasons I've mentioned are the reasons that the Second Amendment was originally created. If your skeptical, do some research on the subject. (like I did for a recent second amendment paper I completed). It has been liberal judges who have ignored founders intent and have ruled that the second amendment only applies to militias. The question simply inquired whether or not the respondent supported gay marriage. It did not ask how a condidates stance may affect how they would vote for someone. I didn't ask you to find a polls to show how the issue was trending. I see you completely failed to produce a poll showing that the majority of Americans support gay marriage!