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LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own Inexperience

by Last Night in Little Rock

A month ago today, Justice Scalia justified cutting back on the exclusionary rule in Hudson v. Michigan using this rationale, obviously culled from the state's amici briefs (playing into Scalia's hand) with no basis in fact:

Moreover, modern police forces are staffed with professionals; it is not credible to assert that internal discipline, which can limit successful careers, will not have a deterrent effect. There is also evidence that the increasing use of various forms of citizen review can enhance police accountability.

Not necessarily so in our fastest growing metropolitan area: Las Vegas.

Today, the LA Times reports in Many Possible Triggers in Rash of Police Shootings in Las Vegas that the unusually young LVPD is coping with its first cop killing in 17 years. Not likely coincidentally,

This year, they have fired at suspects in 19 incidents, killing nine people. If that rate continues, the total police-involved shootings for the year would far surpass those in each of the previous five years, according to police data.

...

The rash of shootings has triggered an FBI investigation into one case, prompted a local review of the inquest system that has repeatedly cleared officers of wrongdoing, and caused outcry from civil rights organizations.

This is a revealing article about a police department policing its own when they are admittedly so young and inexperienced.

The average age of a LVPD officer is only 28, and the average time on the job is only 4 years. It is a product of the rapid growth and nature of the community. The article notes that the officer shooting on February 1st likely has made the younger officers a little more willing to pull the trigger on a civilian.

Sheriff Bill Young has voiced concerns about two of the shootings and said he welcomed the FBI probe.

He also cited the relative inexperience of his force. Faced with explosive population growth and the crime that accompanies it, the department -- which covers most of Clark County -- has doubled in size in 15 years. The average officer is 28, Young said.

"We're hiring from the human race," Young said. "They're young people in their 20s, and they're assigned to the graveyard shift. They're confronting more and more people with guns. So you have to ask the question: Is it the training? Is it their age? Or is it the luck of the draw?"

The killing of Sgt. Prendes hangs over the department, and some in the community are convinced that incident gave the younger officers itchy fingers.

What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Not when a tourist captures the aftermath of a shooting on tape, Rodney King style:

Police also shot and killed Tarance Hall, 31, whose car was blocking traffic and blaring music at a crowded intersection on the Las Vegas Strip on July 4. The incident was witnessed by dozens of tourists, some of whom said afterward that they thought it was a taping of the TV show "CSI."

...

Afterward, police dragged Hall's limp body from the car, threw him to the street and handcuffed him, a scene videotaped by a tourist and broadcast nationally shows. Hall was pronounced dead at a hospital shortly after.
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    From the article, commenting on the assertion the killing of an officer was a cause of the increase in the police shooting suspects in the line of duty: "There's no question that tragedy affected every employee," Young said. "It's hard to know how that affects people. But to suggest that as a result we've taken the attitude of 'shoot first, ask questions later,' I strongly object to that." As he phrased it, I don't doubt him. First, the "we" connotes a collective even dominant mentality. The question remains as to whether some greater number of members of the force have that mentality. Second, "attitude" connotes a consciously deliberated mindset. I doubt that is the case. I have dealt (adversely) with law enforcement for better than 2 decades and I concede a "shoot first ask questions later" attitude is rare (not non-existent but rare). An issue is whether simple fear and anxiety and the instinct for self-preservation combined with the knowledge of the cop-killing and and the relative youth and inexperience of the force is affecting split second judgments and contributing to unwarranted shootings by police officers-- or even "warranted" ones that might have been avoided.

    This is what goes where the "..." was above: The shooting occurred after one officer fell partway through the driver's window and was knocked unconscious when an air bag deployed. The car then backed up, and a second officer shot Hall. Why did you feel that you needed to edit out these lines? The guy was trying to flee with an unconscious officer in his car.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 08:31:25 AM EST
    Let me see --- An officer stick his head in the window, not too smart, but he does it. The air bag goes off...why is not said, but there must have been an impact to the front of the car of considerable force... and we have a loud explosion of the air bag, impact on car, smoke from air bag.... the driver flees.. And the other policeman shoots him. Heck, who wouldn't??

    Police also shot and killed Tarance Hall, 31, whose car was blocking traffic and blaring music at a crowded intersection on the Las Vegas Strip on July 4.
    The world is better off without this self-centered lowlife anyways.

    jimak: Understandable, excusable or even justifiable do not mean unavoidable. It is different to think someone deserves no punishment for causing a death than to think it is always better, if possible, not to cause a death-- even of a "bad guy." This discussion is becoming emblematic of a big part of the problem. don't always focus exclusively on blame. Something terrible happened. At least part of the focus needs to be on what contributed to it and how such terrible things can be made less likely to happen again. That can be done without making the cop out to be evil and without making the deceased out to be blameless.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 09:56:37 AM EST
    The world is better off without this self centered lowlife anyway. If people are looking for reasons why incidents like that occur all-too-frequently, look no further than Granola; who represents his side of the aisle so well.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#7)
    by Patrick on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 09:58:05 AM EST
    D, Here! Here! I've been trying to say something like that here for years, but never came close. Well said.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#8)
    by Patrick on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 09:59:21 AM EST
    Jondee, Likewise you represent yours as well. Thankfully, neither side is the majority.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 10:03:29 AM EST
    Patrick - Show me where I ever said "Good he was a lowlife anyway" when someone got killed. Who you choose to defend says alot about you.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#10)
    by Patrick on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 10:09:20 AM EST
    Jondee, Your comment was about representing sides...Yours, IIRC is opposite of Granola's. It's really a matter of comprehension, I never attributed a comment like that to you. You're much more likely to say something like that towards the cops. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#11)
    by Patrick on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 10:11:46 AM EST
    What "side" were you referring to when you made your comment?

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#12)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 10:17:37 AM EST
    You're much more likely to say something like that towards cops.Lets see your proof. Thats a real as*hole thing to say.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#13)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 10:46:39 AM EST
    I'll grant that the "side of the aisle" crack might've been unfair.

    Posted by Jondee July 16, 2006 11:03 AM Patrick - Show me where I ever said "Good he was a lowlife anyway" when someone got killed. Who you choose to defend says alot about you.
    If you must quote me, get it right:"The world is better off without this self-centered lowlife anyways." I stand by that remark. What kind of person has no regard for anyone but himself? Is that a capital offense? Of course not. If he had been shot for being an a**hole then that would be wrong, but he wasn't shot for being an a**hole he was shot because he was fleeing the scene with an unconscious cop in his car.

    Another piece that LNILR and the LA Times chose to exclude: About 10:40 p.m. Tuesday, two Las Vegas officers on bicycles confronted Hall after he stopped the customized Chevrolet Camaro he was driving in the intersection of Las Vegas Boulevard and Flamingo Road, blocking traffic and blasting music, police said. "He became belligerent and hostile" when the officers approached the car, said Capt. James Dillon, head of the Metropolitan Police Department's robbery/homicide unit, which investigates shootings involving the department's officers. One of the bicycle officers pulled up alongside the car, and when Hall drove away, the officer went with the Camaro about 30 feet until Hall crashed it into a sign at the northeast corner of the intersection, in front of Barbary Coast, 3595 S. Las Vegas Blvd. The officer fell head first into the car, and the air bag deployed, knocking the officer unconscious, Dillon said. Hall put the vehicle in reverse, and the other bicycle officer fired once, striking him.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#16)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 12:44:44 PM EST
    Still not a capital offense Granola. I respect the police and the job they have to do, but they're not sacred bulls from the Temple of Shiva. A moment of assinity that a person paid for with their life, and all you basically have to say is good. Thanks for all the insight.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#17)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 12:46:20 PM EST
    Assininity.

    Posted by Jondee July 16, 2006 01:44 PM ...... I respect the police and the job they have to do.....
    No, obviously you don't. This guy nearly killed a bike cop and then tried to take off again with the unconscious cop in his car. What else could have been done?

    Maybe the cops should have sensitivity training to learn to understand a-holes who block one of the busiest intersections in the world and then try to kill their fellow cops. Do they have a class for that? Maybe the ACLU could fund it.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 03:42:42 PM EST
    Dec - I didn't say the police were blameless, just that I wouldn't charge the policeman with any crime. The deconstruction of any rapid action sequence of events is always difficult, and, if not careful, can lead to second guessing.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Sun Jul 16, 2006 at 03:55:53 PM EST
    One things for sure, U.S municipal police departments will continue to maintain their perfect record of completely justified fatal shootings into the forseeable future. With the important help of the complete, unqualified. support of certain a-holes.

    Jondee- What should they have done? You are full of criticisms, but lacking in solutions.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#23)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 06:50:10 AM EST
    Jondee- What should they have done?
    Oh I don't know...arrested the guy maybe? Obviously there is suspicion of excessive force.

    I'm sure they were trying to arrest him, but he was driving away with an unconscious cop in his car. A cop that was knocked unconscious when this guy tried to flee and crashed.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#25)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 07:24:18 AM EST
    I thought he was blocking an intersection. Glad it's under investigation.
    The world is better off without this self-centered lowlife anyways.
    Really? I say the world would be better off without trigger happy cops.

    Read the story in the Las Vegas paper- not the edited LNILR version. How do you stop a guy fleeing with an unconscious cop in his car?

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 07:48:21 AM EST
    On the strip, shoot out the tires and set up a roadblock. Don't shoot to kill.

    The guy had already crashed after trying to flee. How many pedestrians would be in danger on the Vegas strip on the 4th of July by this guy fleeing.Shooting out the tires would not stop him and roadblocks take time to setup. Even in hindsight your ideas are not great and the cops did not have several days to think about it. They did what they had to do.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 08:26:37 AM EST
    Even the sheriff seems to think there may be an excessive force problem. Again...I'm glad it's being investigated. Seems you'd give the police unlimited powers...I fear that a lot more than some maniac.

    Sheriff Bill Young has voiced concerns about two of the shootings and said he welcomed the FBI probe. Good, but I'll bet that this was not one of them. Again...I'm glad it's being investigated. Seems you'd give the police unlimited powers...I fear that a lot more than some maniac. I never even came close to saying that. Approving of shooting an attemted cop killer is a far cry from approving of unlimited powers.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 08:46:56 AM EST
    The right to kill is the ultimate power. If there was no other way, there was no other way. You don't know, I don't know. I'll leave that decision to an independent investigation, not the LVPD. One thing I do know is if we always took PD's at their word...every shooting, beating, and abuse of power would be justified. Disclaimer***I grew up in NY where half the cops were on the take, and been on the wrong side of the law all my life...so I've got bias.

    I've been on the wrong side of A-hole cops as well and I know what they can be like. I don't generally care much for cops, but I think that this is a bad case to cite as an example of "out of control cops"

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#33)
    by Patrick on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:01:48 AM EST
    You're much more likely to say something like that towards cops.Lets see your proof. Thats a real as*hole thing to say.
    Jondee, You're right I can't back it up, so I retract it and apologize. I looked through some old threads and near as I can figure I attributed comments from another commenter to you. It may not mean much, but I am sorry none the less. We still disagree, on almost everything, but in this case I was wrong. Kdog, Shooting tires? Not sound tactics, but I've seen it done and it's stupid. Road blocks only work if you have time to set them up and move civilians out of the way, plus there's constitutional issues of illegal police roadblocks. Not shooting to kill...Show me any agency in the country that advocates, shooting to kill. They don't. You shoot to stop the threat and you shoot center mass, that's it.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 01:39:05 PM EST
    Thanks Patrick. I've been known to do the same thing a few times myself. Shalom

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#35)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 01:57:13 PM EST
    Points taken Pat. I got carried away...again. Like I said, we don't know the situation. We do know that a man is dead at the hands of police....I hope a thorough, independent investigation takes place. Maybe the officer had no choice, maybe he overreacted. Another thought...how far is the guy gonna get with a deployed air bag on the Vegas strip. If Vegas is anything like NY...there would be a cop cruiser on every corner of a major road like the strip. I find it difficult to believe there was no other way to stop the guy than bullets. Could be wrong though. The dramatic rise in LVPD shootings leads me to believe there may be a problem in the dept.

    Another thought...how far is the guy gonna get with a deployed air bag on the Vegas strip. If Vegas is anything like NY...there would be a cop cruiser on every corner of a major road like the strip. I find it difficult to believe there was no other way to stop the guy than bullets. Could be wrong though.
    You are right he is not going to get very far- before he runs into a crowd of pedestrians. Have you ever been to Vegas?

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:20:10 PM EST
    I'll be there soon Granola. I'll remember to, as always, stay out of the cops way. I would think I'd have a better chance of dodging a car than a stray bullet in Times Square....I've been there.

    Re: LVPD Shocked by Murder of Officer and Its Own (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 06:57:26 PM EST
    kdog and granola - Would you really want to have someone, possibly armed, obviously out of control, to be running down the strip? How many tourists do you want killed? kdog - BTW There is no such thing as shot to wound, or shoot the tires out, etc. That only happens in the movies. Why? Because it takes a real expert to hit anything from 30 feet, much less a tire, etc. What happens when it hits a rim and richoets off and kills a tourist.

    Of course not Jim, that was my point.