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Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing Us

As many TalkLeft readers know, Terry Kindlon of Albany, NY is an outstanding criminal defense lawyer who reads and comments often on TalkLeft about military service. He was a decorated Marine during Vietnam, sustained some injuries, is married to my friend Laurie Shanks, also an outstanding defense lawyer in Albany, and their son Lee, age 30, is a captain in the Marines and a military lawyer who recently returned from Fallujah, where he also served as a Judge Advocate.

He has an op-ed in the Albany Times available here at Common Dreams, that is a must read for those who truly care about our military and soldiers.

Here's some of what Terry has to say, but go on over and read the whole thing:

His primary topic is the Marines under investigation in the Haditha killings.

But those few Marines in Haditha are not solely responsible for this abomination, and they must not be left to absorb all of the blame alone. Such misconduct bespeaks a systemic problem, a scandalous failure of leadership, and the killers' superiors share responsibility with the men who actually pulled the triggers. And this time, unlike the farcical Abu Ghraib cover-up, prosecutors must methodically work their way up the chain of command until they have identified every superior officer who, through neglect, indifference or incompetence has contributed to this catastrophe.

He concludes with:

....since they no longer can scrape up enough new recruits and because a military draft would be political suicide, they've issued "stop-loss" orders and consigned our Marines and soldiers to endless, exhausting cycles of deployment after deployment. Given all this, is it any wonder our troops are at their wits' end? Given all this, is it a little easier to understand the collapse of Marine Corps discipline in Haditha and the murder of 24 civilians?.

Because of their deceit and incompetence, our civilian leaders have managed to make the United States a global pariah, they have caused the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people and they are breaking the back of our military. It's hard to believe, but we have now been in Iraq for as almost as long as we fought World War II. At this point, however, instead of being on the verge of victory, our soldiers are exhausted and their families are disintegrating. And nobody is able to say what victory is or how it can be attained.

As citizens of this democracy, we cannot permit this debacle to continue. When the ghost of President Kennedy rises up to ask us what we can do for our country, the answer is stone simple. What we can do for our country is accept the reality that we cannot win this war and end it now. What we can do for our country is bring our soldiers and Marines home to their families, make amends and start healing our wounds.

What we can do for our country is take it back from the radicals who've stolen it away and start the process of restoring our integrity and our honor and our hope.

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    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#1)
    by Johnny on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:10:09 AM EST
    Terry Kindlon is another wounded Vietnam vet about to be swiftboated by the poker players and wrong-wingers of the world. Good read Terry, thank you for that.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#2)
    by Johnny on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 04:19:45 AM EST
    I would also add that there will be the typical "Why does he want the terrorists to win?" BS spewing from the mouths of chickenhawks. Here we have a vet, wounded no less, with a child that was there (reading this Cheny?), speaking against this war. That speaks volumes.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#3)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 04:42:28 AM EST
    On one of the news programs a month or so ago, they stated that during WWII in the Pacific, a soldiers saw on average 40-50 days of combat a year. In Iraq it is 274 days/year. An inhumane amount of stress. But I doubt that those civilians in charge of the military care very much about the cannon fodder. The elite, especially the corporate elite like Chaney, could care less about the sacrifices being made for their purposes by the lower class. The elites expect such out of their "subjects"

    "Ask not" would make a good get out the vote, and vote Democrat, drive this fall.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:15:25 AM EST
    Johnny - That I disagree with Terry is obvious. But I have, in the past, thanked him for his service. You see Johnny, adults do things like that. Try it sometimes. et al - Link Link1 The two links provide information in considerable disagreement with Terry's conclusions in regards to recruiting. This includes 105% for the Marines. And before you launch into rich vs poor arguments, remember that I have argued for Universal Military Service for years. So, "Attention seaman recruit Johnny. Listen up. ...." ;-)

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:43:11 AM EST
    Jim, If recruiting is just peachy, why is an infinitely more knowledgable person completely disagreeing with you. Your link doesn't work, but I'd respectfully submit that you at least consider playing devil's advocate with your own thinking. Stop-loss would NOT be happening so much if recruiting were just fine. If you think there are people signing up for the military as they always have, in the wake of this utterly bothched murderous madness, then I have to question you skills of logic. Go find a set of numbers that contradicts yours, present them both, and we'll see which seem to be more reliable, accurate, and made without institutional bias -- the military's. Terry, if I may presume, doesn't give a rat's a*s about being thanked for his service, I think he'd rather you put on your rational thinking cap and get to work as a free American, which seems obviously to be the call of his piece.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:46:43 AM EST
    Add Jim, To be honest, I can't say I'd trust any numbers the military is handing out now. They simply haven't the credibility. Haven't earned it with honesty to the American people or its own soldiers. It's in ther INTEREST to distort their own numbers, and the military simply does not announce its failures as such.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#8)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:28:46 AM EST
    they raised the age limits, lowered the standards and aren't letting others out. Yep, recruiting is just fine.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 12:58:20 PM EST
    ppj - Of course we all remember how much you expressed your gratitude for Kerry's service; what with you keeping the Swift Boat references down to only about 4 or 5 a day..

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#10)
    by Patrick on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 01:05:46 PM EST
    Jondee, Just wanted to make sure you saw this...

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#11)
    by jen on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 01:07:45 PM EST
    and the numbers don't reflect the trouble they are having filling certain jobs. Sure they have met their recruiting goal but they needed x number for certain higher skilled jobs and only y number for lesser jobs and all the new recruits are going into the lesser jobs.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#12)
    by john horse on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:54:08 PM EST
    It's hard to believe, but we have now been in Iraq for as almost as long as we fought World War II. At this point, however, instead of being on the verge of victory, our soldiers are exhausted and their families are disintegrating. And nobody is able to say what victory is or how it can be attained.
    Excellent point by Terry Kindlon. One of the ironies of our occupation in Iraq is that the longer we stay the weaker we become.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#13)
    by Johnny on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:58:35 PM EST
    Jim, I am much too old for a draft... But you still keep insisting I am a teenager or something... In addition, I rarely, if ever, make comments about "the draft". I was referring more to his personal experiences, which make him vastly more qualified to provide commentary on combat conditions as well as having children in active military ina combat zone, than say... the men and women who put the people in harms way. The chickenhawks (and yes, that includes you in spite of your ten years of service) refuse to listen to anyone that does not toe the party line when it comes to sending people to die. Am I mistaken on your stance?

    "Ask not" would make a good get out the vote, and vote Democrat, drive this fall. How about thinking when you vote instead of just voting party, what a difference that would make.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 07:06:23 PM EST
    Johnny - There are many people who have been in harms way who have children in Iraq, etc. We've plowed this field before, and the answer always comes back, if you think leaders must have military experience, then I am sure you did not vote for Clinton. The issue is simple. We have a constitutional republic. You voted on the issue in 00,02,04 and now have a chance in 06. It would be helpful to the troops that you just be quiet now that the fighting has started. Dadler - That you always disbelieve anything the military says is starting to make me think you have developed a case of paranoia. et al - They are making their numbers as I have posted. That this makes you sad makes me sadder.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#16)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 08:03:52 PM EST
    They are making their numbers as I have posted.
    By taking skin heads and neo-nazis - you must be so proud!

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#17)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 08:45:57 PM EST
    Don't forget the drunks and drug addicts and socio/psychopaths.
    It would be helpful to the troops that you just be quiet now that the fighting has started.
    bush has said the fighting will never end. The line should have been drawn when he lied about the grounds for war. Now the line is to beg the UN and iraq's neighbors for help.

    Jimakkappj sure doesent seem to agree with anyone on this site. Wonder why he even bothers to come here? Is it a job. You no like 9-5 cruise the the net get the message out. Always on message. Alway quick to pounce and punish. Discredit long time posters.Always onsite when there is damage control to be done. What do others think is it his perverse hobby to go where he is not wanted or is it his job?

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#19)
    by Repack Rider on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:51:38 PM EST
    if you think leaders must have military experience, then I am sure you did not vote for Clinton.
    I think leaders should do what they say they will do. If one is against a war, he should say so in the strongest possible terms, and if that means resisting the draft, this former GI says do it and accept any consequences as part of your statement. OTOH, if one, such as a young Dubya, says that it was a good idea to fight in Vietnam, he should go there and do so. In addition, if one, such as a young Dubya, gets a cushy slot in the TANG by means of his dad's influence, then one should at the very least, serve the entire term, rather than being sent home because of a refusal to take a required flight physical that included (for the first time) a drug test.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#20)
    by Johnny on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:33:02 PM EST
    if you think leaders must have military experience
    Ahem... Never said that, ever. Next.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#21)
    by Repack Rider on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 12:09:09 AM EST
    Jimakkappj sure doesent seem to agree with anyone on this site. Wonder why he even bothers to come here? Is it a job.
    Yes. There are commercial astroturf (tm) entities who hire otherwise unemployable people to post on blogs for various purposes. Some try to counter bad product reviews, others like PPJ, try to insert Karl Rove talking points into otherwise worthwhile political discussions with the intent of keeping people from discussing the issues and instead getting them to discuss the whining professional victims on the right. As you can see, Karl Rove does not hold up too well in the merciless light of facts and logic ("I'm MELTINGGGG!"), but as long as Jim makes the required number of posts every day, he gets paid. I post on a number of blogs, and you probably do also, but Jim only posts here, because there are a lot of unemployed, middle-aged Republicans who have recently learned to type, and there are only a million or so blogs to divide them among.

    leftout:
    Jimakkappj sure doesent seem to agree with anyone on this site. Wonder why he even bothers to come here? ... (I)s it his perverse hobby to go where he is not wanted, or is it his job?
    Yes, especially when he also believes that we should all turn into sheep between elections and just let the elected politicians get on with things:
    We have a constitutional republic. You voted on the issue in 00,02,04 and now have a chance in 06. It would be helpful to the troops that you just be quiet now that the fighting has started.
    It certainly makes one wonder why he posts here, doesn't it.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 05:50:14 AM EST
    SD writes:
    By taking skin heads and neo-nazis - you must be so proud!
    Sailor joined SD 42 minutes later.
    Don't forget the drunks and drug addicts and socio/psychopaths.
    Thanks for telling us what you think of the troops. Are you guys both on Senator Durbin's staff? Now. Want the truth? No. Sorry, here it is anyway.
    More than 60 percent of the recruits came from the top half of mental-aptitude categories. More than 90 percent have a high-school diploma, which "is the best predictor, we've found over many years of experience, that recruits will stay through their first enlistment," Chu said. Chu said he is not disturbed by the increase in "category 4" personnel joining the Army. These recruits score in the lowest category of the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery tests. The Army recruits no more than 4 percent of its force from this category, meeting the DoD benchmark, explained Doug Smith, public affairs officer for U.S. Army Recruiting Command. For many years, the Army had a self-imposed 2-percent limit, he said, but raised it to 4 percent in 2005. This stands in sharp contrast to the late 1970s, when as many as 45 percent of Army recruits could be drawn from category 4..
    Repack writes:
    In addition, if one, such as a young Dubya, gets a cushy slot in the TANG by means of his dad's influence,
    Actually the TANG PILOT slots were WIDE open when Bush joined. Probably because F102's were being used in Vietnam and everyone expected to be deployed. Not to mention flying fighter jets is considered to be hazardous. Ask your insurance agent about FIGHTER pilots. It was GROUNDPOUNDER slots that were not available, probably because they were considered safe. Just thought you would want to know. Got any more tall tales, Repack? Memos maybe? No? I guess Rathergate broke those people from sucking eggs. Leftout - I am here to educate you. And a dark and lonely job it is. Especially when you consider the level of your indoctrination. Some, such as Repack and SD, are too far gone for help. Sad, but life goes on. On a more serious note, I like debate rather than an "I'm ok - you're ok echo chamber." Even more serious, it is the feeling of love I get when I read the comments. ;-) Johnny wrote:
    (quoted me)if you think leaders must have military experience Ahem... Never said that, ever. Next.
    Yes you did. You wrote:
    I was referring more to his personal experiences, which make him vastly more qualified to provide commentary on combat conditions as well as having children in active military ina combat zone, than say... the men and women who put the people in harms way.


    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#24)
    by aw on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 09:48:43 AM EST
    Chu said he is not disturbed by the increase in "category 4" personnel joining the Army. These recruits score in the lowest category of the Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery tests.
    I suppose Category 4 = Bad Apples.
    Leftout - I am here to educate you.
    *Snicker* Pompous a$$.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:45:27 AM EST
    aw - You know, I'd like to see your test scores... ;-) And pompous? Never.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#26)
    by Bill Arnett on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 11:37:01 AM EST
    For everyone tired of ppj's nonsense regarding what great shape recruiting and retention is in our military, the link below will disabuse you of the notion that he is making any semblance of an accurate or thoughtful, reasoned argument for the "sake of debate." http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/6862691/the_return_of_the_draft/ This is an excellent Rolling Stone article regarding the possibility of reinstating the draft due to lousy recruiting and people jumping out as soon as they can, if they don't have a "stop loss" order keeping them in, as do 100,000 of our troops. This very informative article blows out of the water any supposition that our military can stand much more of Commander-in-Chief and wanna be king George Bush and his Republican Guard.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#27)
    by Bill Arnett on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 11:39:05 AM EST
    I clearly somehow screwed up with the "linl", which doesn't work, so paste the address into your browser to go to this fine article. Apologies for my technical ineptness.

    Pompous? Perhaps. As for intelligence, I link, you decide.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 01:05:26 PM EST
    Actually the TANG PILOT slots were WIDE open when Bush joined. Probably because F102's were being used in Vietnam and everyone expected to be deployed.
    That is a load of hooey. The F102's were the safest bet to insure not flying in combat. Anyone who wanted combat did not join the National Guard and at best trained on F4's. If the TANG unit was so easy to get into, especially with shrubs low score of 25% on his pilot aptitude test, why was it locally called "The Champaign Unit"?
    Bush admited that there was a long waiting list himself. CNN For more on the conrtoversy here is what is in wikopedia.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 02:02:03 PM EST
    Jim - If Bush wanted badly to get into combat, as you seem to be implying, there were alot easier ways for him to insure that happened. Cut the jive.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#31)
    by Johnny on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 02:51:10 PM EST
    By me:
    I was referring more to his personal experiences, which make him vastly more qualified to provide commentary on combat conditions as well as having children in active military ina combat zone, than say... the men and women who put the people in harms way.
    Scanning... scanning... scanning... Nope. Nowhere in there does it say his superior experience and knowledge about war is what would make him a better leader, just a more qualified commenter. Try again Jim, you are running out of straws.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 06:01:02 PM EST
    Squeaky - As usual, you're wrong.
    Though essentially useless in the small-war role, F-102s were indeed deployed to South Vietnam. Aircraft from the 590th Fighter Interceptor Squadron were transferred to Tan Son Nhut AFB near Saigon in March 1962 to provide air defense... A few missions were flown over North Vietnam, but the Southeast Asia-stationed F-102As are not thought to have actually engaged in air-to-air combat....However, Joe Baugher cites an F-102A of the 509th FIS being lost to an air-to-air missile fired by a MiG-21 while flying a CAP over Route Package IV on February 3, 1968. Two F-102As were lost to AAA or small-arms fire, four were destroyed on the ground by the Viet Cong, and eight were lost in operational accidents. The F-102A even flew some close-support missions over South Vietnam, even though the aircraft was totally unsuited for this role. These operations started in 1965 at Tan Son Nhut
    and eight were lost in operational accidents.
    The F102 was considered a very tricky and dangerous beast. As to F4's, I don't think any Air National Guard units had them. As for the claim by this guy, I don't believe it. It would, of course be more believable had Rathergate not happened. I do believe this.
    Bush's critics have accused him of having "jumped ahead" of 150 applicants on a "waiting list" to join the ANG. Such an accusation is incorrect. In any ANG group, maintenance and administrative personnel made up the bulk of the unit and, as applicants, made up the bulk of any "waiting list." According to Lt. Col. Campenni, "There may have been 150 or more applicants for all positions in Lt. Bush's unit. For pilot slots, however, the pool was much smaller, probably never more than 10, because of the stringent physical and educational criteria."
    You know Squeaky, as I have commented in the past, I'm not in love with Bush's social issues positions, but you, and the Left, only look foolish when you flap your jaws about things you know nothing about. Bill - My links show the numbers. Your article makes forecasts. Biggggg difference. Facts vs BS.

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#33)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 06:39:21 PM EST
    Yep, some men, like Dubya, want too get into the fray a little too badly. These hell-bent-for-leather types, with little regard for their own saftey, are best held back and placed in special units where their special abilities and reckless daring-do can be best utilized should the desperate hour arise. Right Jim?

    Re: Our Military and Civilian Leaders Are Failing (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 06:41:07 PM EST
    I should work for Fox.