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Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach

by TChris

Religious intolerance has reached an extreme in Pompano Beach, Florida, where a mosque seeks zoning approval to relocate and expand.

The new mosque would have a social hall, basketball court and playground, open to all. It would also be a storm shelter and a place to vote.

This civic asset would seem uncontroversial, but it's vehemently opposed by (among others) Rev. O'Neal Dozier, pastor of Worldwide Christian Center. Why? Because -- according to Dozier -- Muslims are categorically "dangerous" and "terrorists."

That a 57-year-old black Christian minister, who gets teary-eyed when he talks about how he was "excluded as a young black man," is dead set on excluding Muslims is surprising enough. But even more surprising is who supports him and who doesn't.

Besides the three dozen, mostly black, protesters from his church - which his deacon says has more than 300 parishioners - Dozier is backed by two other black ministers from the area and about four local Jewish supporters, led by Joe Kaufman, founder of "Citizens Against Hate" and the "Republican Jewish Coalition of South Florida."

The irony of the founder of "Citizens Against Hate" demonizing Muslims seems lost on Kaufman, who argues that "This mosque should not exist on American shores." Irony abounds in this conflict.

[Willie] Larson, the NAACP head, went to the podium to caution against "religious intolerance." He quoted Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

The audience booed.

"Now, I've seen it all," Louis said. "Black people booing King. Just how crazy can this get?"

Dozier is "prominent in local and national Republican politics" and has been described as a "confidante" to President Bush. Yet even the president has cautioned against demonizing all Muslims. It's strange to suggest that someone should listen to President Bush, but in this instance, Dozier and the other Pompano Beach Republicans who share his view should pay attention to their president.

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    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#1)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 08:53:33 AM EST
    Must be something in the water. That is the only plausible explanation.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 08:56:07 AM EST
    The far right wing pundits, fundamentalist preachers, and politicians have been demonizing Muslims for some time now. So this should not surprise anyone. A culture of hate has been expanding and is now gaining mainstream access. To see detailed discussion of these trends you should be reading David Neiwert everyday.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#3)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 08:57:38 AM EST
    A simple case of one set of snake-oil salesmen trying to exclude another set of snake-oil salesmen. Stamping out the competetion for the superstition dollar, if you will.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:14:50 AM EST
    Posted by kdog July 17, 2006 09:57 AM A simple case of one set of snake-oil salesmen trying to exclude another set of snake-oil salesmen. Stamping out the competetion for the superstition dollar, if you will.
    Speaking of religious intolerance....

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#5)
    by roxtar on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:29:50 AM EST
    I'm sure kdog can speak for himself, but many of us feel that religion deserves no more deference than do unicorns. It's one thing to reject all superstition; it quite another to say "My superstition good, your superstition bad." To reject all religion is intellectually consistent. To reject all but one's own is the attitude which has earned (and is deserving of) kdog's scorn.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:35:55 AM EST
    What disgraceful Americans. Our own religious fundamentalists -- who'd make great terrorists themselves if they had to be, no doubt. Who, amazingly, can't smell that steaming pile of sh*t they've dumped on American freedom and tolerance. Definitely what Jesus would do. The Muslim Center of San Diego is close to my house, I guess I better move further away. Idiots.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#7)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:36:02 AM EST
    You may feel as you wish, but until the 1st Amendment specifically protects unicorns, you will have a hard time convinving rational people that is not a brand of intolerance that the government should not promote. Yyou guys are something. You take a softball post that was intended to make the other side look bad and end up making yourself look just as bad as the misguided preacher man.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 09:50:59 AM EST
    Decon, What. Are. You. Talking. About? Are you supporting the decision to ban Muslims from building a center in Florida? Are you citicizing posters who question the intellectual validity of religion -- while STILL supporting religious freedom? What is your specific beef with anything specifically posted in the brief comments here? Usually appreciate what you have to say, so say something in plain English. Speak.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#9)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:02:57 AM EST
    Dadler, you ask: "What. Are. You. Talking. About? "Are you supporting the decision to ban Muslims from building a center in Florida?" No, and I clearly wrote that the opponents are "misguided." *** Are you citicizing posters who question the intellectual validity of religion -- while STILL supporting religious freedom? No, I'm criticizing narrow-minded intolerant individuals people who "reject all but one's own" as one such poster wrote while doing exactly that. you ask: "anything specifically posted in the brief comments here?" You mean other than equating fundamentalist Christians with terrorists? Other than accusing them of "hate" in terms that demonstrate the exact same typoe of attitude? not counting dismissing religious beliefs as a "steaming pile..." So far, no, but I have little doubt that equally narroww-minded intolerance will follow, paradoxically claiming to support tolerance.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:08:43 AM EST
    This guy isn't just any preacher. He's one that's been selected (by Bush) to select judicial nominees and it looks like his criteria is Bible based rather than anything constitutional.
    Politics and piety Far be it from us to suggest that the process of choosing state judges is politicized. Far be it from us to remind readers of the not-so-distant past, when every judicial candidate but one in this district switched his or her party affiliation to match that of the incumbent governor. Nor will we remind you that, only last year in Orlando, Gov. Bush told those folks he appointed to choose state judges that, "I'm looking for people who share my philosophy." And heaven forbid that we should bring up the fact that Bush made sure the Florida Bar would have little or no role in selecting the folks who select the judges. Which brings us to the Right Rev. O'Neal Dozier. The reverend is among nine folks who select judicial candidates to serve on the South Florida bench. We don't know if he shares Gov. Bush's philosophy on law, but we do know that he does not share that of the U.S. Constitution. This is how we know: "There is no such animal as separation of church and state in the Constitution," he told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel. ... "This country is founded on the principles of Christianity, not the principles of Buddhism, not the principles of Judaism.
    bold emphasis mine

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#11)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:15:10 AM EST
    Decon, First, you said NOTHING of saying this was misguided. Nothing. Your entire post was aimed at criticism of posters on this thread. Period. Second, glad you don't think kind of prohibition is right. That was my hunch. Third, the terrorist mindset IS the fundamentalist/extremist mindset. The mindset that I am right and everyone else is wrong. I ATTENDED THE LARGEST EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN HIGH SCHOOL IN THE ENTIRE US of A, I was IMMERSED in the evangelical life. I WAS an evangelical. But I was always troubled. Having come to it from my own family madness, it was really just a group to belong to for me, a kind of family. But quickly I discoverd that the childish literal belief in things quite metaphoric was the core of "faith", and it was the source of EVERY ridiculous rationalization -- from gays deserve to die from aids, to commies deserve to die, to liberals are agents of Satan, abortion clinics and workers deserve to be bombed, to black people are NOT equal and were a separate creation, to Mormons are heretics and are going to hell, and on and on and on.... THIS is the type of extremist environment I am talking about, probably not the moderate, tolerant, more humane Christians you know. Get it? And this is really a cursory sweep of my experience in the evangelical life. Trust me when I tell you, even the nicest people in the world normally have more than a capacity to hate without boundary, and if circumstances genuinely called for it, I have no doubt they answer that call with what they saw as justified violence. The mantra went like this: "God, then Country, then Family". Is it any wonder I found a great degree of prejudiced inhumanity there -- actual humans were third down the list on that mantra, after all.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#12)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:17:01 AM EST
    Man I wrote too fast, sloppy sloppy, syntax choppy, my apologies. Gotta run.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:20:51 AM EST
    Last Add Decon, No reading of "steaming pile" could marginally be understood as being aimed at religious beliefs. It was OBVIOUSLY aimed at the freedom-hating ACTIONS emanating from that supposed basis of faith. Come on, man, gimme some credit. The mystery of life is a great one, no one from the Pope to a janitor has anymore insight into the mystery of existence than anyone else, and I have no problem with whatever people need to do to satiate their fears or questions about that mystery. But I have a great problem when that metaphorical thinking becomes th8e literal basis for rank intolerance, stupidity, racism, you name it.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#14)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:21:34 AM EST
    Okay, now I have to run. :-)

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#15)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:25:35 AM EST
    Well, Jeb Bush asked him to resign and he did. He is a narrow-minded zealot convinced he knows the ultimate truth. He can be opposed on that basis but quite ineffectively by people who are alos narrow-minded people convinced they know the ultimate truth. I freely admit i don't know ultimate truth and I don't think either I individually or humanity collectively is capable of knowing the ultimate truth. I do know that absolute belief that God exists can be based on nothing but absolute faith. i also know that absolute belief God does not exist is based on nothing but absolute faith. Framed positively or negatively any belief in the absolute is contrary to reason. I fear people just as much if they are absolutely that God exists and mandates that man behave as they believe God wants or if they are absolutely convinced belief in God is ignorant superstition. I very much doubt the conception of an anthropomorphic God issuing edicts to humanity but I equally doubt the conception that the incredibly complex but orderly universe in which we live is the result of nothing more than random, fortuitous chemical and physical reactions. However, without more proof than we are capable of discovering, I don't absolutely reject the possibility of either. People whose beliefs and attitudes are compelled entirely by "faith" they know the answer scare me. I'm an agnostic in both the religious and the general sense of the word. It's merely my opinion, but I think keeping one's mind open to all possibilities and considering what people say even if I find it doubtful is the key to gaining as much understanding is possible even if ythat understanding will always be woefilly incomplete. I oppose ALL who try to tell me i shouldn't listen to what people who disagree with them have to say.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#16)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:26:52 AM EST
    Dadler: I wrote this: "making yourself look just as bad as the misguided preacher man." Care to reconsider?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#17)
    by glanton on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:34:06 AM EST
    I oppose ALL who try to tell me i shouldn't listen to what people who disagree with them have to say.
    Okay, Decon. I'm saying, what Fred Phelps has to say does not merit your consideration; indeed, he and his followers ought objectively mto be shunned and ostracized at all times, and will in fact be treated this way by people with even a scinitilla of class. Of course, Phelps hasn't killed or harmed anyone (directly, anyway) so ostracization would be the only move necessary. I am also saying that whatever bin Laden has to say at this point merits zero consideration; indeed, at this point only his location, and how we can get him, matter. I await your rebuttal with baited breath.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#18)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:41:53 AM EST
    Decon, I stand corrected on the misguided miss. But read the rest of my post, you'll get where I come from. We are both agnostics, which doesn't seem odd. Although I'd say I'm more simply a mystic. Existence will always be a mystery. If it is the result of some god's creation, to me, then it's not existence at all as we know it, but a planned experiment.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#19)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:42:53 AM EST
    Correct me if i'm wrong, but Phelps is the "God hates..." guy? I fully agree he should be ostracized and shunned. Bin Laden too. But, that's on the basis of what they advocate, not on the basis they are motivated (or at least claim to be) by religious beliefs. It is possible to believe there is a God and he will punish homosexuality or that there is a God and he endorses Jihad as a means of converting Infidels without without being a dangerous fanatic. My point is using bin Laden to justify intolerance against other Muslims or Phelps to justify intolerance against other fundamentalist christians simply because thety are Muslims or christians is wrong.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#20)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:56:51 AM EST
    "We are both agnostics, which doesn't seem odd. Although I'd say I'm more simply a mystic. Existence will always be a mystery. If it is the result of some god's creation, to me, then it's not existence at all as we know it, but a planned experiment." I would not call my self a "mystic," but I agree the genesis and meaning of existence will always be a mystery to man. I think your implication there is too narrow. I don't think the existence of some for lack of better word, entity, responsible for existence necessarily requires a "plan" let alone an "experiment." I think that is also assuming that whatever is must be on the basis of something comprehensible to us. Once you remove that assumption ANYTHING is possible. People have an innate desire to "demystify" and understand. Things that provide the illusion of understanding--whether rooted in religion or science-- will always be accepted by some as providing ultimate answers. Personally, I think science provides a lot better understanding of how and why we can't know the ultimate truth. That's a reason to be less certain and more humble about claiming to know how we came to be, but that cuts both ways it should also make us less certain that there is NOT a God.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#21)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:58:48 AM EST
    Decon, In this specific case, the preacher is the one doing all the damage himself. HE'S the one acting here. Intolerance and vehement disagreement are two different things. My criticisms of those who would act like him are not justified intolerance. I tolerate these people entirely as long as they do no harm to others (a can of worms iself). But I also, if need be, state loudly and clearly how full of useless crap they are when I think their words and actions ARE harming others, the nation, our freedoms, etc. A fundamentalist is a rejectionist by definition. Intolerant by nature. It's the ENTIRE BASIS of the belief system. Me right, everyone else wrong. The ability to say "Listen to me, am I full of sh*t or what?" is key. I have no problem saying it (since I'm starting to wonder if "God, Country, Family" wasn't actually "God, Family, Country").

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#22)
    by Slado on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:00:26 AM EST
    The reason this guy is mad is their are no Muslims according to him in the neighgorhood and the county was supposed to use the land for public housing. Leaders of that community are pissed that the land is being used for a Mosque when it's supposed to be according to them for something that would actually benifit the community. I listened to a debate between him and the lader of the proposed Mosque. All realities about Islam aside I agree that on the surface this seems pretty bad but throwing around connections to Bush doesn't mean that the community isn't mostly black and democratic. The reality is they want the land for their own purposes. Not a mosque.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#23)
    by glanton on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:07:52 AM EST
    Okay, Decon, I like it, very persuasive stuff you're putting out there. Re those who go overboard in reacting against fundamentalists I can only speak for myself and say that it's a real weakness that I struggle with. For me, herewith the generation of that weakness: I see the damage so many fundamentalists in this world bring upon the rest of us who are merely trying to live and let live: heck, the very definition of evangelism operates in direct opposition to the live and let live mantra. Evangelism by definition, ragardless of specific denomination, views human beings as vessels into which meaning needs to be poured. I resent the hell out of this premise. I am no vessel, but a real human being. Those religious people who wish to have a conversation with me about their faith, I always welcome: but too often one sees that dialogue is not the project but rather outright conversion. So the actions of a substantial portion of these groups lead me, in my weakness, to bias against the whole group. But Decon, I heartily disagree with what you seem to be implying, which is that "regular fundies" in Uhmerrikah are so very removed from Phelps, and belong in a whole other conversation. Just as I tend to paint with too broad a brush in the one direction, so too do you seem desirious to paint broadly with a benign brush that says Phelps is some anomaly in Uhmerrikahn life... or for that matter that bin Laden is an anomaly to Islamic fundamentalism. Some crazies are crazier than others, and some have infinitely more balls than others. But we saw masses of people dancing in thew streets when the towers went down. Just as sick, these people, as the hijackers themselves, only with less balls. They are certainly deserving of no "dialogue" in my mind.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#24)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:09:31 AM EST
    Vehement denuciation of him for opposing the mosque and preaching intolerance is one thing; the attacks on all religionists as "snake oil salesmen," mocking them as being on a par with unicorn believers, using him to demonize generally, and similar tactics are another. That's why I said people took a softball and drilled it off their own foot.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:10:31 AM EST
    Decon, Interesting. I just cross-posted you so I'm going to try to bang this out fast. First, I just don't buy into the "things beyond human comprehension" stuff. I certainly acknowledge there could be SOURCES of energy, matter, creative force in the universe that we don't currently know about, of course that possible, but there rational ability to admit this means we DO, in fact, comprehend it. Rationality is a burden most of us do not want to utilize fully because it DOES lead to difficult questions. Science IS great tool, and shows our limits in many ways. "Matter is neither created nor destroyed, it only changes forms." There is no such thing as nothing. That is a limit that I hold as a pretty solidly working truth. For me, demystifying this issue is merely THINKING about it, and I'm not holding it against myself to think. So much for fast.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#26)
    by Slado on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:12:30 AM EST
    One need look no farther then this thread to see examples of religious intolerance. At least when it comes to christians that is. I'm not defending the Pastor by the way, I heard him for myself and he's a boob but there is more to the story then simple Islam bashing.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:14:53 AM EST
    ...but there is more to the story then simple Islam bashing.
    Complex Islam bashing?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#28)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:15:08 AM EST
    Before my comment gets too misconstrued....I was simply stating my personal opinion of the motivations of the preacher. I don't think for a minute he is afraid of a terrorists, he is afraid of collection plate competetion. It seems obvious to me. Frankly, I don't see how that statement is intolerant of Christianity or religion is general. It is possible to be tolerant while voicing my own beliefs. I do not mean to ridicule the religous beliefs of others. I will defend anyones right to believe in whatever deity they wish, as long as I am free not to believe. When one preacherman tries to stop another preacherman from preaching....that's not freedom, and there is no place for it in the USA I believe in.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#29)
    by Slado on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:16:45 AM EST
    Sorry earlier post didn't go... The more to the story part was I heard the Pastor and the Mosque leader debate on the radio and the Pastor said the land was supposed to be used for low income housing but it was "re-zoned" only to allow the Mosque to a black community. He was saying that the country/city was using this community as a dumping ground for the Mosque because they wouldn't allow it in the rich white areas. Now these were his claims. Laura Ingram challeged him on these claims but he stuck by him. The leader of the Mosque was a pretty reasonable guy who just wanted to get his mosque built. He was a standard apologist for radical Islam but he agreed that blowing oneself up was unreasonable and said he wasn't pushing Islam on the local commuinty. Something the preacher was worried about.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#30)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:17:01 AM EST
    I didn't say SOME fundamntalist Christians other than Phelps are not also dangerous fanatics and also need to be opposed. I'm saying the way it is done is important. This is not a good area in which to fight fire with fire. sometimes it's a lot better to show to show you know how to use a fire extinguisher.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:18:10 AM EST
    Considering what's going on in the M.E right now, I'd say they pulled it maybe just slightly foul.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#32)
    by Dadler on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:18:46 AM EST
    Slado, There's certainly more to it, but when this is how he decided to PLAY IT, well, it's his fault the "more to it" has been lost. HE'S the one who lost it.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:21:09 AM EST
    Regardless of any other part of this discussion. this line is hilarious
    That's why I said people took a softball and drilled it off their own foot.


    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#34)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:21:40 AM EST
    I guess you guys consider "snakeoil salesman" a slur. Point taken, aopologies if I offended. My point stands though, this preacher is protecting his territory from rival beliefs, not from terrorists.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#35)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:24:15 AM EST
    Not to get too off on a tangent but, is a perfect vacuum devoid on energy not possible? Is it not possible that our understanding of physical laws of nature (even very "basic" ones) is incomplete or even erroneous? Is it not possible that at a different time or in a different "dimension" the physical "realities" which we observe did or will not apply? The list is endless. I'm sticking to my inability to comprehend thesis. However, I don't think that means I should ignire people who think either religion or science or the two in tandem can someday provide "THE ANSWER" and it is certainly likely more "sub-answers" can be revealed.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#36)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:35:39 AM EST
    Sounds like the same folks who burnt a question mark on my Unitarian friends lawn ...

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#37)
    by oldtree on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:36:22 AM EST
    only one thing to do to end religious intolerance get rid of all religions so we have things in common, instead of at odds. oh when will we grow up as a people and find out the cosmic muffin was meant as a joke and means of employment for a few?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:37:28 AM EST
    I think at this point we should have a pretty good laundrey list of what aren't "the answers". One would think. What did Ekhart say; something about starting with subtraction?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#39)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:38:15 AM EST
    "only one thing to do to end religious intolerance get rid of all religions " Unless this is clever irony, little could better illustrate the point i was originally making.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#40)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:39:59 AM EST
    What degree of hubris is necessary to think we do or should have a good list of what are not the answers?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:40:31 AM EST
    Perhaps if the Christian preacher promises 73 virgins in heaven, he can edge out the competition. Paradise is well and good, but those Muslims sure know how to sell to the young male demographic. Me...I'm waiting for someone to offer 100 before I sign on...lol.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#42)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:44:07 AM EST
    What degree of hubris is necessary to think we do or should have a good list of what are not the answers?
    I'd say hypocrisy is an obvious 'not an answer' and the republican reverend's comments are completely against Jesus' teachings.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#43)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:44:23 AM EST
    Eschatology (there's a word for you), is the problem. Or, one of the really big problems. God's big, secret, strategy (always replete with metaphors of warfare); who's in on it and who isn't.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#44)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:48:27 AM EST
    That too is unknowable now. Of course, if there is something other than us in the universe, it or they might be able to determmine the nature and causes of our demise.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:51:14 AM EST
    When it comes to religion it is all "snake oil". Oddly enough the original snake oil from China was proven to have high levels of the pain reliever EPA extracted from Chinese water snakes. The American imitations had a bit of beef oil (no snake oil whatsoever), camphor and was in itself of no medicinal value. Obviously the bogus snake oil had some placebo effect based on faith. A snake oil salesman is essentially a con man who heals his clients through their faith. I think that the analogy is a good one as faith has a powerful effect on humans and that is the basis of most religions. Clearly when the snake oil salesman calls another a fake for the sake of personal profit the gig is up. Most honest con men know that dissing your competition risks bringing your whole operation down because it invites rational scrutiny. The Rev. O'Neal Dozier is clearly giving the snake oil business a bad name. Jeb Bush was right to fire him because the last thing he wants is scrutiny of any sort.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#46)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:51:32 AM EST
    i should have added "after the fact" to the end of the sentence.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 12:07:22 PM EST
    Decon - Im thinking of things like Crusades and Jihads, rampant greed, racism, "the Virtue of Selfishness" (shellfishness), The Dictatorship of the Proletariot (or any other kind of dictatorship) etc. It's fairly clear that these arrangements aren't healthily sustainable for long; or maybe you think they are?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#48)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 12:15:39 PM EST
    I thought you meant eschatology in terms of the study of, or beliefs regarding, the "end of the world."

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 12:33:42 PM EST
    Decon - I did. The post above is a follow up to my hubris-ridden "subtraction" comment.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#50)
    by jen on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 12:56:20 PM EST
    How can they keep the mosque from expanding? on what basis? What say does a preacher have? is this a vote thing or a commitee thing? And whats with the philosophy from a beer bottle nonsense??? Yo! Guys! TOPIC!

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#51)
    by Peaches on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 01:08:14 PM EST
    And whats with the philosophy from a beer bottle nonsense???
    What do you mean, nonsense? Some of my best philosophising has come through the influence of tasty beers for my unsuspecting drinking companions. I happen to enjoy the tangent provided by Decon and Dadler. Decons viewpoint being very close to my own. Keep up the philosphy and add some lime to your pilsner or hefe-weizen. (its hot-dammit!).

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#52)
    by jen on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 01:10:51 PM EST
    oh I give up, got a beer?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#53)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 01:23:02 PM EST
    Jen: We are off on a tangent. Sometimes the tangent can be more interesting than a story that is just a rather sad case of petty intolerance. The Christian preacher "can't keep the mosque from expanding" per se. What could but is very unlikely to happen it seems is that the "planning commission" (or whatever they call it) which is required to review applications for new construction under city ordinances could vote to recommend against issuing the necessary permits to the agency charged with issuing them. This all took place during a public comment period which is routine for this type of stuff. Perhaps in your town, a permit is needed to put up a fence or to build closer to the street or whatever. If the neighbor you hated filed an application, you'd have the right to go down to City Hall and complain about what a lousy neighbor he is and all sorts of of other things irrelevant to the actual issue if you chose.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#54)
    by roger on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 01:46:35 PM EST
    People arguing over which invisible man is real. And we wonder when they act irrationally. It's amazing that they are functional at all!

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#55)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:09:01 PM EST
    Posted by Roger July 17, 2006 02:46 PM People arguing over which invisible man is real. And we wonder when they act irrationally. It's amazing that they are functional at all!
    Do you regard Islam with the same contempt that you regard Christianity?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#56)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:10:32 PM EST
    "Listen, God is 100 percent for capital punishment," Dozier pronounces slowly and emphatically. "Oh, yeah, God knew some were going to slip through, a few innocent ones. He knew that. But you cannot have a society without capital punishment." Murmurs of accord rise from Dozier's audience. "You're right," calls out one woman.
    More doozies below. link

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#57)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:16:29 PM EST
    I'm digging the Decon/Dadler debate as well. It's one I've entered into here a few times my own self and on a fairly similar angle as Decon's - however I was usually somewhat less restrained than him, which, for example, led glanton to give me my deserved and beloved moniker. I'm interested to see its twists and turns. On a very similar topic, there is a Jewish school that is trying to get approval from LA County to build a big academy on the border of my home town. It seems that most of the town is against it based mainly on its inappropriateness due to its size, traffic projections, and because it requires a variance to the existing zoning, and most folks seem to like the existing zoning. We live in a semi-rural area and the existing zoning is 5 homes on 10 acre lots, or something similar. Despite the various reasonable reasons for folks to be against the academy, opposition to it has raised accusations of anti-semitism from some of the supporters. While school will be on county land, and the county has approved its land-use variance from the existing zoning, and will gain higher tax revenues from it as an 7500 student academy rather than the 5 homes on 10 acres each (or some such) the land is presently zoned for, our city, including our Jewish mayor pro-tem, is planning to fight the county's approval. Ultimately, it seems a city/county/whatever has the legal right to approve or disapprove just about whatever it wants, and whether it does or not depends on a lot of things, like how much they care about the folks who are for and/or against the project. Being politicians, when I say "care about" I mean how many votes they feel they stand to gain or lose.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#58)
    by Patrick on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:27:27 PM EST
    SUO, You've got a home on 10 acres in LA. You rich $&#@*. ;-)

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#59)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:32:34 PM EST
    Patrick- 10 divided by 5=2. Which doesn't necessarily subtract from your conclusion.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#60)
    by Patrick on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:34:35 PM EST
    Ha....That's what get for being a smarta$$...

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#61)
    by jen on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:43:01 PM EST
    Well I'm going to stick a small digression here about something Deconstructionist said. Not that I disagree, science *does* provide answers to questions. HOWEVER. This just deepens the mysteries. The boundaries of your universe expand, as you learn astronomy and cosmology, deepen as you learn chemistry and physics, and positively bend and twist your mind as you start to learn biology and genetics. The more you learn, the more this universe blows your mind. end of digression

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:51:21 PM EST
    Patrick, I wish. I live in a standard-issue California early '70's Brady Bunch subdivision. The property in question is on the "good" side of town...

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#63)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:55:09 PM EST
    Oh, and I messed up, it's more like 750 students than 7500...

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#64)
    by glanton on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 02:59:20 PM EST
    suo: I remember those debates well, and of course I was even less restrained than you at the time, and in my extreme emotions (my fear of Kansas, if you will), delved well into the land of the asinine. I am glad that we got through there to some sort of saner ground. And spinning people's monikers is always fun. Remember "Dred Fawes"?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:06:15 PM EST
    And spinning people's monikers is always fun. Remember "Dred Fawes"?
    Brings a smile to my face just to see it again! I kinda miss that old kook.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#66)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:12:32 PM EST
    I hear that sarc. Zoning laws cab get pretty whacky, and like most everything political connections go a long way. The thing with this story is it's the Christian preacher coming out againt the Muslim preacher, and pushing the terrorist angle. That's not cool. In the case by your place, are the opponents voicing only legitimate concerns or have anti-semitic comments been made? I lived in Pompano for a bit...lots of little churches on the west side of Dixie Hwy. Being the religous skeptic I am, I gotta think the competition for the collection plate dollar to be fierce in Pompano's west side....hence my take above.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:16:10 PM EST
    kdog, you must have missed this para:
    Despite the various reasonable reasons for folks to be against the academy, opposition to it has raised accusations of anti-semitism from some of the supporters.
    not suprising really, I wrote a lot.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#68)
    by kdog on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:24:53 PM EST
    No, I saw it sarc. Acuusations are one thing...are the opposition to the school in the local paper or on the local news spouting jewish stereotypes? Or is the anti-semitism assumed?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#69)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 03:47:55 PM EST
    Sorry, kdog, I miss-read. No, no news org is spouting anything anti-Semitic. The anti-Semitism is assumed. I brought up the local school issue because it was somewhat similar to the Pompano Beach issue. My personal opinion is that bigotry is being used in Pompano and LA County as a means to an end. All that aside, in response to Jen's questions, what I learned from the local school issue is that zoning really doesn't matter a bit. The decision by the politicians to approve a project or not is based almost wholly on how the pols think the decision will affect their voters.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#70)
    by roger on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 05:04:38 PM EST
    Granola, Christian invisible man, Muslim invisible man, Jewish invisible man........ All invisible

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#71)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 05:05:47 PM EST
    ROTFLMAO! Religious Intolerance is wrong in your eyes, unless it's against Christians or Jews. I believe you are what is called a hypocrite. IMO let them build whatever they want, it's a free country.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#72)
    by roger on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 05:49:12 PM EST
    Muddy, Build all the facilities that you want, for your choice of invisible man. Of course, an invisible building would be a thing of beauty

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#73)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 08:22:27 PM EST
    Do you regard Islam with the same contempt that you regard Christianity?
    No, I regard Islam with the same respect I regard Christianity. Which, if I'm not mistaken, was the whole point of this thread ... now can I have a beer?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#74)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 01:24:03 AM EST
    Great discussion. I'd just like to comment on one point made by Glanton, who wrote:
    I heartily disagree ... that bin Laden is an anomaly to Islamic fundamentalism. ... we saw masses of people dancing in the streets when the towers went down.
    You have to consider the fact that you saw this on TV. You were not present to count how many streets were empty of such demonstrations. Empty streets don't make for interesting news coverage, so they don't get shown. So if you conclude that those images were typical, as opposed to being an anomaly, you are generalizing from a news story presented by the media. Yes, those things you saw on the news did happen, but that does not make them representative. I strongly doubt that ALL those who hold Islamic Fundamentalist beliefs would either be in favor of the destruction of the WTC or claim to be followers of Bin Laden. But non-violent believers are not newsworthy, especially when they don't align with the conventional wisdom.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#75)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 05:55:14 AM EST
    Well, that the demonstrations were not representative of all or even most isn't really the issue. It's not necessary for such thinking to be prevalent even among a large plurality for it to be a very real and very serious problem.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#76)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 06:11:31 AM EST
    I seem to recall that the footage for some of the demonstrations after 911 was several years old. In other words, the footage was used by the media, to focus our outrage against Muslems. Even if the few demonstrations were a very real and very serious problem, the even greater problem was created by the disproportionate attention that was focused on the minority view in the Muslem community in order to ferment our bloodlust and go into Afghanistan and later Iraq with vengeance and hatred as our purest motivation.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#77)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:21:08 AM EST
    Of course not ALL "those who hold Islamic Fundamentalist beliefs would either be in favor of the destruction of the WTC or claim to be followers of Bin Laden." How about MOST or at least enough to be a real problem? Were ANY Americans dancing in the streets after Haditha? "But non-violent believers are not newsworthy" Sure they are, and we would all have loved to see them. How great it would have been to see Arafat or one of Hamas' or Hezbollah's leaders speak out against the 9/11 attacks, but they did not. There seems to be a general consensus here that we should not choose sides here, or at least not Israel's side, but why shouldn't we choose sides? You can be certain that Hezbollah and Hamas were delighted by the 9/11 attacks.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#78)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:25:22 AM EST
    Posted by Sailor July 17, 2006 09:22 PM Do you regard Islam with the same contempt that you regard Christianity? No, I regard Islam with the same respect I regard Christianity. Which, if I'm not mistaken, was the whole point of this thread ... now can I have a beer?
    Sure you can. Roger already answered and yes he does.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#79)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:36:17 AM EST
    Iran was horrified about the 9/11 attack and offered to help in Afghanistan. Bush told them to f*ck off and that they were an axis of evil. I am certain that this helped the more extreme Ahmadinejad get elected. Bush poisoned the sympathy Iranian civilians had toward America as well as poisoned the sympathy from the rest of the world. A Napoleon complex is not always based on lack of inches.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#80)
    by glanton on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:37:47 AM EST
    Cymro, Peaches: Points taken. Granola: Sometimes when I reas your posts I get the impression you'd enjoy, that you await, a straight-up religious war, couched in precisely those terms, between Christians and Muslims. Am I right?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#81)
    by roger on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:38:25 AM EST
    Granola, You have an absolute right to worship as you choose. I have an absolute right to consider all religion silly. Can I have a joint now?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#82)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:48:34 AM EST
    Posted by glanton July 18, 2006 09:37 AM Cymro, Peaches: Points taken. Granola: Sometimes when I reas your posts I get the impression you'd enjoy, that you await, a straight-up religious war, couched in precisely those terms, between Christians and Muslims. Am I right?
    Of course not, but I do recognize that the war you speak of is already being fought by Muslims all across the globe from India to Chechnya to Los Angeles to Bali. I am not even a religious person, but I believe in freedom of religion. Why not just respond to what I post rather than reading a lot into it that is not there?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#83)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:58:44 AM EST
    SUO- My personal opinion is that bigotry is being used in Pompano and LA County as a means to an end.
    Where is the LA County bigotry? Isn't it more accurate to say that accusations of bigotry are being used?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#84)
    by glanton on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 09:10:13 AM EST
    Granola, If I were reading so much into your posts as you claim, I wouldn't have said what those posts appeared to me to be doing. I would have immediately engaged you as though you had said that. You know, like Zell Miller just assumed that Kerry actually wanted to outfit our military with spitballs. But anyway, try not to overblow your sense of uniqueness when you say "but I believe in freedom of religion." That would in fact represent the views of about 99% of the people I've seen posting on this forum for the two years I've been visiting.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#85)
    by glanton on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 09:12:08 AM EST
    And btw, Granola, you say there is a religious WAR being fought in LA, that is pure hogwash and I suspect you know it. Litigation is not war, children aren't being killed in the crossfire of adults who think their God needs to be vindicated, not in LA, not yet, hopefully not ever.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#86)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 09:21:50 AM EST
    This is what I was referring to regarding L.A. I have a valid belief that Islamic extremists are a serious problem. How was I, in any way "overblowing my sense of uniqueness"? That was a strange comment. I was accused of wanting a religious war and made a statement which could not be attributable to someone wanting a religious war.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#87)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 09:30:35 AM EST
    we saw masses of people dancing in the streets when the towers went down.
    No, we saw stock footage.
    I have a valid belief that Islamic extremists are a serious problem.
    Yes, but they are by far the minority. Christian extremists are just as serious a problem. So are jewish extremists ... etc.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#88)
    by glanton on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 09:38:32 AM EST
    No, we saw stock footage.
    sailor and Squeaky, As I said to Cymro and Peaches, Point taken. Media spin is a real killer in this world, no doubt about it. I think there were even a few moments during the NBA playoffs where I may have though we really were Witnesses. :-)
    How was I, in any way "overblowing my sense of uniqueness"? That was a strange comment.
    Well, then, let's clear up my "strange comment," Granola. Do you acknowledge that your belief in freedom of religion is indeed shared by all these posters against whom you are rhetorically setting yourself in opposition, or do you believe that you are taking some sort of stand for freedom of religion against us? As they say on FOX, INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW. Oh, wait, wrong soundbite.... Also, sailor writes:
    Yes, but they are by far the minority. Christian extremists are just as serious a problem. So are jewish extremists ... etc.
    This is something with which, Granola, surely you can agree? (Something tells me you do not but hey, maybe I'm "reading too much" into your posts)

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#89)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 09:53:20 AM EST
    Glanton, I guess that most of you do believe in freedom of religion, therefore I was trying to establish not that I am unique in this, but rather that I am not so unique as to be actually advocating a religious war. I believe that Christian extremists are so marginalized that they have little impact on anything, although I'm sure your definition of extremist is different than mine. By any definition they certainly don't present the danger that Muslim extremists do. Who do you consider to be a Christian extremist? Eric Rudolph? I'll agree George Bush? The Pope? Billy Graham?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#90)
    by glanton on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:12:35 AM EST
    Granola, Not so marginalized, in my opinion. Witness the Kansas School Board Fiasco it's the Monkey Trials all over again buddy. Witness the N. Carolina pastor, Channing, who kicked everybody out of his church who wouldn't promise to vote for Bush. Etc. Etc. Etc. Oh, and witness the anti-homosexual rhetoric that pervades our political process and which is continually stoked by Christians ranging from Fred Phelps to Billy Graham to the Pope to Rick Santorum to, yes, George W. Bush. Ahh, Leviticus!!!! But pass the shellfish.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#91)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:28:58 AM EST
    Monkey trials are not good, but present a minor problem as evolution is still widely accepted and always will be. These people are without a doubt marginalized. Channing is not so different from black preachers all across the country telling their people who to vote for. Not good, but how does that compare to suicide bombers? I support gay marriage but I don't think that there is any major threat to anybody if it doesn't happen. I've even been to a lesbian wedding and I just don't see what harm was done by the state not sanctioning it. They are living their lives as wife and wife and nobody is bothering them. They have certainly paid less in taxes due to that "discrimination".

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#92)
    by glanton on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:41:54 AM EST
    They are living their lives as wife and wife and nobody is bothering them. They have certainly paid less in taxes due to that "discrimination".
    This is downright silly commentary. What happens in the event of medical emergency and a decision needs to be made? Do they have to go through ten thousand times extra hoops to adopt? Etc. Etc. Etc. But then, it's interesting that when you read "anti-homoseuxal rhetoric" you leap straight (pun intended) to the "issue" of gay marriage. This proves that the spinners have done well, but still, wasn't quite what I was getting at. Can you say, Lawrence v Texas? I knew you could. Now. Here I paint with a broad brush and venture to say that the overwhelming majority of those who make the gay marriage hysteria a voting priority would also gladly re-criminalize homosexuality altogether, if they could. Which will be an option again as soon as the aforementioned Court Decision is reversed, which will happen with this Court. Anyway. Enough with those particular bigots. Let's talk about your "black preachers" analogue: I'd liek to see where some black preacher has kicked out half his congregation for voting "against God." Show me that, and you'll be showing me a crazy person, an extremist. But either way, black white whatever, at least we agree that Channing is no anomaly. Finally, as to your little quip about Monkey Trials, you speak as though the game is won when it is indeed still in play. When you say "Evolution is universally accepted," surely you don't include Kansas, Georgia, Dover Penn. (for a moment only, much to Pat Robertson's chagrin, and as he puts it, God will punish that town) etc.? Try telling that to these School Boards and legislators.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#93)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:48:32 AM EST
    Granola, I would say that for some folks of one religion to accuse some other folks, presumably of a different religion, of bigotry against them, when no such bigotry actually exists, is, itself, bigotry. One group's intolerance of another. You may disagree. I think it's kind of a useless distincion though...

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#94)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 11:16:03 AM EST
    Posted by sarcastic unnamed one July 18, 2006 11:48 AM Granola, I would say that for some folks of one religion to accuse some other folks, presumably of a different religion, of bigotry against them, when no such bigotry actually exists, is, itself, bigotry. One group's intolerance of another. You may disagree. I think it's kind of a useless distincion though...
    I tend to agree, but oftentimes I think it is just a tactic.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#95)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 11:37:03 AM EST
    We are in agreement then.
    My personal opinion is that bigotry is being used in Pompano and LA County as a means to an end.


    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#96)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 11:43:54 AM EST
    Christian extremists: All the Patriot idiots who we don't hear about anymore, who think the government is evil, Jesus was a redneck, judges should be shot, etc. Every one who's tried to intimidate abortion clinics or women wanting to use their services. (Or bombed them, or murdered a doctor, obviously) Every "Christian" who was against integration and equal rights. Christians who only "support" Israel because they believe they MUST or the rapture can't happen and they won't go to heaven. Christians who attempt to equate homosexuality with anything evil, bad, wrong, etc., and can justify death and disease as a punishment, based on nothing but their own prejudice and vacant fear. Christians who think Jesus will literally come down from the sky and carry them up to heaven. (No different than an adult literally believing in Santa Claus -- which is fine, but that's what it is, nothing more grand). These are all extremist. They are all elements of our society. You want more? To wit: our sh*t smells, too.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#97)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 11:46:12 AM EST
    And oh yes, George W. Bush too. His "crusade" line evidenced he's not only an extremist, but one without enough respect for his freedom as an American to educated himself about the cultural implications of that word for, um, the MIDDLE EAST!!

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#98)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 12:08:04 PM EST
    Why was my last post held?

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#99)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 12:12:12 PM EST
    I don't have to to repost my links etc. on the post that was "held for approval" but here is a summary: Lawrence V. Texas will not be overturned. Gay muslims are treated much worse. Our preachers can't come close to the radical Iman's of Islam A couple of schools considering teaching creation does not compare to teaching kids to be suicide bombers.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#100)
    by glanton on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 02:28:42 PM EST
    Granola with all due respect your arguments have gotten far weaker as this thread has "evolved." How can you possibly assert:
    Lawrence V. Texas will not be overturned.
    with a straight face? Not only is it the case that it was a 5-4 decision with O'Connor ruling against state-sanctioned bigotry, but that particular case has been railed against by GOp Senators, and Bush who know doubt considered the ruling "messin with Texas" from the beginning. What do you think, Alito is going to uphold? Please. Then you write:
    Gay muslims are treated much worse.
    First of all, even if that were true, who cares? Are we now descending into PPJ land, where "at least we don't saw off heads" is a legitimate argument? Secondly, the reason your statement is false is that homosexuals receiving better treatment in the United States than they do in, say, Ira, has nothing whatever to do with the relative tolerance levels of fundamentalist Christianity versus that or Islam. What it has to do with, Granola Bar, is the fact that the United States is much more secular than iran. Thank goodness for that, may it last a bit longer! But then that secularism, which protects the "other" much more so than the benevolence of the Roundheads, comes under fire from people with real power, Senators, Presidents, Pundits. In other words, thanks for reinforcing my point, Granola. Fundamentalists are scary, period, and the less real power they have to decide what the rest of us can and cannot do, the better. Finally, Granola, you write:
    A couple of schools considering teaching creation does not compare to teaching kids to be suicide bombers.
    Again back to the at least we don't saw off heads argument. Yes, I understand we have made great strides since the days when we used to burn women with big mouths while declaring them to be witches. But then, having Monkey Trials in 2000's is much more like going backwards then going forwards. And that, beyond the abject idiocy of the thing, is a big part of what's so scary about it. Granola, what many of us find annoying about people like you is that you keep denying the existence of the far religious Right in this country, and even when you ackowledge it, you blow it off as though it's no factor. You are able to blow it off because of course they won't do anything to you. So you think. Keep looking out for number one, enjoy the tax cuts, STAY ALERT AND STAY WITH FOX.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#101)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 02:50:18 PM EST
    Granola, As I noted at the top of this thread to another poster, as a graduate of the largest evangelical Christian high school in the entire country, trust me, what I was taught was MUCH more than creationism. Since this thread isn't about creationism being taught, or attempted, in a few schools, but about intolerance, I use my experience in this fundamentalist world to understand one thing: the capacity for extremism, and extreme action if deemed necessary, is certainly below OUR surface as much as anyone elses. And ON the surface for all to see in some cases -- you cannot discount that for the anti-choice terrorists, bombings and murder arose through time as, in their eyes, legitimate. In other words, the group(s) here in the U.S. that feel the most cornered and desperate and ruled by the divine are the ones for whom violence becomes a means to their "end". See all urban rioting in this country, as well. The capacity for violence, for justifying it, is in all of us. We in the U.S., or most of us here, have been the fortunate recipients of relative wealth, comfort and east, geography that has kept us from war and invasion on our shores. But we still have a history of revolt and violence by our marginalized peoples. Not all of it justified, but certainly all of it the product of the human condition we all share, whatever race, religion or nationality we may be.

    Re: Religious Intolerance in Pompano Beach (none / 0) (#102)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 03:45:38 PM EST
    I agree that an Eric Rudolph is very similar to a low level terrorist, but do you really think that there are that many of them? The Monkey trials are really just an aberration and what effect does it have anyways if a few kids in Kansas learn creationism? The bottom line is I agree with you mostly on these issues, but we disagree on the severity of the problem. I think radical Islam is a much bigger problem