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Tuesday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 11:16:15 PM EST
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I can't remember the last time I went to bed at 11:00 pm, but I'm headed there now because I have to get up at 4:30 a.m. to make an early flight for court in another city. Since that's the way it is, here's an open thread. All topics are welcome, except Duke which has it's own thread going as well as the TalkLeft Duke forums.

If I get any free time waiting around the airport, I'll check in, otherwise it may be Wednesday before I'm back to blogging. I'm also pretty bummed because tonight is Hunter Thompson's birthday party in Aspen, and even though I've been invited, I can't go because I won't be back from court in time to get there.

omahadenver

Distance: 540 miles

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    Tuesday Open Thread | 36 comments (36 topical)
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by LibraryLady on Mon Jul 17, 2006 at 10:37:32 PM EST
    Have a safe trip and hopefully some relaxation this weekend.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by weezie on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 04:28:41 AM EST
    I hope you are going somewhere with a pool! Safe travels...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 04:39:07 AM EST
    From Helena Cobban
    This present maelstrom of violence is particularly depressing and unnecessary, for two reasons: (1) The vast majority of the peoples of Lebanon, Israel, and Palestine all want exactly the same thing-- which is to be able to live their lives in safe and flourishing communities that are not plagued by war. Olmert's speech in the Knesset was long on expressing this with regard to the Israeli people but absolutely devoid of any recognition that this is exactly what the majority of the Lebanese and Palestinian peoples also want; and (2) The outlines of how such a peace might be drawn up are fairly well known by now: Israeli withdrawals from just about all of the lands seized by military force from their neighbors in 1967, and the establishment of full relations of normal peace between Israel and all its nieghbors. If such a peace were indeed built, the support for militant irredentists in the Palestinian, Lebanese, Jewish-Israeli, and other communities of the region would go down to very low and absolutely manageable levels... Most people would be too busy celebrating and building upon the newfound regional peace.
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 04:40:45 AM EST
    Here's a good site that summarizes the scientific evidence on global warming.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Joseph Hughes on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 05:44:20 AM EST
    A glimpse at the future

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Slado on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:04:43 AM EST
    I listned to Diane Rheem yesterday and her interview with Joe Wilson and a former Justice lawyer discuss his case. I challenge anyone in favor of Wilson to listen to the interviews and come to an honest conclusion. Wilson The judicial lawyer crushes the Wilson case and leaves Diane Rheem speachless as she shoots down every favorite theory of the wilson crusade which Rheem is more then happy to offer up after being recharged wtih BS by Wilson. Take a listen.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 08:53:33 AM EST
    Attorney General: Bush blocked eavesdropping probe
    WASHINGTON (AP) -- Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said Tuesday that President Bush personally blocked Justice Department lawyers from pursuing an internal probe of the warrantless eavesdropping program that monitors Americans' international calls and e-mails when terrorism is suspected.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:05:31 AM EST
    Yo Blair! Blair mocked as Bush's poodle, as Bush solidifies his reputation as world-class buffoon.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:17:02 AM EST
    Gosh desertwine, who would have imagined that could ever be a Reuters headline. NY post yes, but Reuters? A certain consensus must have been reached. The "Poodle" obviously is looking to join John Major with a seat on the Carlyle Group board after he leaves politics.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:42:09 AM EST
    "President Bush is apparently ready to end his boycott of the NAACP, the oldest civil rights organization in the United States, with a possible speech Thursday before the group's national convention."
    think progress The president's support of the Voting Rights act may be how he got a leg up on this.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:47:53 AM EST
    But most damaging to Blair was what commentators saw as his plea -- rebuffed by Bush -- to be allowed to visit the Middle East to try to stop fighting between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas.
    Well, if the footie fits...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 10:52:46 AM EST
    Think Progress also:
    Bush rubbed the German Chancellor Angela Merkel the wrong way at the G8 summit. The Los Angeles Times reports, "Bush headed directly behind the chancellor, reached out and, placing both hands on the collar of her gold jacket, gave her a short massage just below the neck. She smiled." Yet, according to the video evidence, it's pretty clear the chancellor wanted nothing to do with the massage.
    So what the hell is wrong with this guy? What kind of disease is he carrying?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 11:32:15 AM EST
    Slado, Listened to it, and haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. The lawyer was SOOOOO pro-administration at any cost it was ridiculous -- Cheney has full immunity no matter WHAT he does? Bullsh*t, tell that to Nixon. She stated flat out, she doesn't know a THING about what's behind her, in this lawyer's opinion, merely classified status -- since Fitz hasn't said. And lastly, and most tellingly, and in form with posters here like you and PPJ, she stated with such glibness that she thinks discovery would just be grand for the administration lawyers, and implied that Joe Wilson is the one with something to hide. She is so full of sh*t it's a wonder she can breathe, that's my opinion. She's a shill, brought on to toe the company line, which she did without fail, not even conceding that ANYTHING bad could've happened here. She has pre-judged and made up her mind, isn't objective and made it VERY clear with her twisted rationalizations. The way she talked about the CIA as some ho-hum organization that files complaints about their agents being compromised every week, and this is just nothing new...she sounded imcompetent as an objective commentator. Lastly, she, unless I am mistaken, didn't even address the first amendment issue Wilson raised about redress of grievences and the government trying to ruin he and his wife because of his rederss. Wilson was by far the more level-headed, objective and clear. The lawyer, on the other hand, was out to prove things she admitted she didn't know anything about -- the CIA's real beef here, Valerie Plame's real value. If she thinks it won't get to discovery, that's her opinion. Period. I've read just as much that says it will. Regardless of the legal outcomes, we both know something scummy, bullying and wretched was tried by the administration to smear this guy and his wife. That's clear. Murderers get off, too, so it won't surprise me if legall the suit doesn't go forward. Morally, Cheney and his crew are just useless thugs without an ounce of anything but egomania in them.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by dutchfox on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 12:22:08 PM EST
    Today is Nelson Mandela's birthday; he's 88 yo. Happy Birthday!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimcee on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 12:23:14 PM EST
    Watching the back and forth between Slado and Dadler just reminds me that most people only hear what they want to hear. I listened to it and Slado is correct that the moderater was rather obvious with her bias in the debate. Not that that is any suprise as it is the 'Diane Rheam Show', on NPR afterall. The lawyer that was on the show was shilling for the administration otherwise it would have been a rather one sided affair which seems to be how Dadler would have preferred it. Me? I think that Wilson and his wife are entrenched anti-adminstration activists and I'll leave it up to the courts to decide this case. I think that the courts will toss it but you never know. Mostly I find the timing is impeccable to keep this story alive through the current election cycle and then it will quietly disappear. Pure politics. But then I'm a cynical kind of guy.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Slado on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 12:39:54 PM EST
    Dadler, The lawyer was obviously pro-adminstration with her comments about discovery actually helping Bush etc.. but she actually helped write the law that was going to be investigated by Fitzgerald. Can you possibly question her qualifications or are you in denial? Here are the facts she presented... Cheney, Libby and Rove are imune. Instead of beating up on her tell me why that isn't ture. Plame was not covert. Plame hasn't been verrified as classified. Even if she was classified the law doesn't apply to non covert agents. Plame was listed in Who's Who as the wife of Joseph Wilson. That doesn't indicate that she was covert. The law only applies to covert agents within 5 years of service. Mrs. Plame doesn't qualify. In order for someone to be "covert" they must be overseas. Not on desk duty in Langley. The list goes on and on. Please tell me how, where and why Wilson has a case instead not wanting to admit facts are facts because one seems to you to be republican. Are democrats only capable of telling the truth? Do you not care what Wilsons obvious biases are? If Wilson had any facts on his side I wouldn't have written post because I wouldn't want to embarrass myself as Mrs. Rheem did in that interview. By the way your last paragraph shows you don't care what the facts are or even what the legal outcome are. You want this to be true.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Slado on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 12:59:10 PM EST
    Anyone from Boston? The big dig is looking like the big boondoggle. What's the deal with this thing other then it seems like a giant spending spree that is turning into a mess? CNN

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 01:23:55 PM EST
    What's the deal with this thing other then it seems like a giant spending spree that is turning into a mess? I just glanced at the article and saw a familair name. An engineering firm relying upon gov't handouts and development plans in third world countries around the world. One of a handful US companies that benefit from disposing of democratically elected leaders in third world countries representing the poor people and installing dictators willing to handcuff their countries in years of debt to enrich their own coffers. They are willing to do the same in Boston also.
    Messages left with project manager Bechtel/Parsons Brinckerhoff...


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 01:31:48 PM EST
    The big dig is looking like the big boondoggle. What's the deal with this thing other then it seems like a giant spending spree that is turning into a mess?
    Its the big three: graft, corruption and incompetence. Concrete companies shipped bad concrete, the design to hold the concrete slabs up was flawed as they were told by a field engineer. I'm still trying to figure out why concrete slabs on the inner wall. The other tunnels seemed to use a different material. The lack of oversight is at the feet of the state emplyees The corporations and subcontractors just did shoddy work, overbilled, and cheated. Unfettered, unaccountable capitalism at its best (worst).

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 01:39:04 PM EST
    "A giant spending spree that's turned into a mess." We certainly cant have that can we? How much of a spending spree is it; anywhere in the neighborhood of ten billion a month?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 01:44:30 PM EST
    How much of a spending spree is it
    What I've read: about 14 billion total, took well over ten years

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 01:53:31 PM EST
    "Unfettered, unaccountable capitalism" That blow they'll all feel when the concrete falls will be another blow for freedom.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 04:00:35 PM EST
    Slado, Alright, here we go: 1) If you think that Cheney has blanket immunity then fine. Her interpretation of EVERYTHING was so extreme and without quarter she wasn't credible to me. It defies logic that you or she, or ANY rational person, thinks ANY of this relates to Cheney's legitimate duties as VP. Nixon thought his personal political vendettas as legitimate to his duties as President of the United States. They weren't. They were crimes. And he paid, not as much as he should have, but he paid dearly. A miserable man for the rest of his life. And he needed a pardon from Ford to RISE to that misery. 2) As to her status, I'd say this is a point of radical disagreement which, as evidenced by the CIA's referral in the first place, has yet to be adequately determined. Though I seriously doubt, from the smarts Wilson and his wife possess, that they'd waste their time if they didn't strongly believe they had a case on this most basic of elements. Not that she was anything, but that the naming of her in the way it was done damaged her in a serious enough manner they feel the guilty parties should be held accountable. 3) A Who's Who listing as Joe Wilson's wife indicates NOTHING about working for the CIA. This point is less than irrelevant, it's bizarre. 4) I find it stunning that you can look reality in the face, thousands butchered in a botched war based on PROVEN lies that patriots like Joe Wilson tried to alert us to, a war that distracted and destroyed us in many ways in our ability to fight REAL terrorism and its causes, that you could consider Wilson's "bias" a greater factor here than the administration's track record of personal and political thuggery -- go f*ck yourself, on the floor of the Senate, is a much greater indicator of a troubled mind than Wilson's piece. They are not even in the same ballpark to me. Finally, my last paragraph in the previous post was an accurate assessment of the useless dirtbags abusing my little brother and putting him in harm's way without adequate planning or resources, so frankly I don't give a rat's dingleberried behind if you think that means ANYTHING about me. What it means is that these people have a long history that stinks to hell, and it's sad when otherwise well-intentioned, reasonable, well spoken, free Americans like you shill for them instead of facing the hard ugly reality of their PLAIN AS DAY failures and uacceptable behavior. The Plame Case, as I've admitted, could easily be a loser. It may additionally suffer from being a NEW FORM of government abuse of first amendment rights of its own employees for the purposes of actionable smearing. Also, EVERYONE can lie, we've posted enough between each other to know we both believe that. MY take on THIS specific case is that something rotten was done by certain people who have LONG track records of similary low behavior. What do you want me to say, Clinton lied. Will that help? We're all potential liars, you hear me loud and clear? Peace.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimcee on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 05:23:51 PM EST
    As I said earlier, Both Dadler and Slado only hear what they want to hear and both refuse to consider the other's point of view. I still think that Dadler is overreaching with his Nixon references because a grand jury has already decided that the only indictment is not for the exposure of Plame but for perjury in the GJ procedures. The Plames have little chance of winning this suit as there wasn't even an indictment handed down on the original charges. This is just pure politics as and it is tailor-made for folks such as Dadler as was the administration's lawyer was made for Slado. The producers of the DR show deserve credit for firing up both side's partisans. Dollars to donuts that this case will disappear just after the election and the DNC/MoveOn donations to the Plame suit dry up. You two are mirror images of each other.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 05:54:56 PM EST
    Thought some of you might find this amusing: The Big Iraq Candy Mountain.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 18, 2006 at 11:16:55 PM EST
    Re the big dig. It's quite a shame that problems are arising. I watched the documentry of the project last year, and in truth I was awestruck how the builders overcame the far from insignificant problems they faced without befalling major disasters. Hope they can fix it, it was one mighty piece of civil engineering.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:38:43 AM EST
    Add Jimcee an Slado, Though I will admit for the last few days I've been pretty damn pissy. Between worrying about my brother in Afhghanistan, my own medical condition (a paralysis which could be helped by stem cell research), and dealing with my hyper six year-old son, what can I say? Peace, boys. Or girls, not to assume anything.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Peaches on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:52:16 AM EST
    Dadler, I hope your bro makes it safe out of Afghanistan and that you can discover good health once again. As a son of a father with Parkinson's I can understand your frustration over stem-cell research. In the mean time, eat well, exercise when you can, love your son and others close to you, and don't let the bastards get you down. Peace

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 09:53:40 AM EST
    As for the whole Plame outing fiasco, the REAL issue keeps getting subsumed in legal issues (be they civil or criminal). Focus on what cheney, Rove, et al did and whether it was wrong for them to do it. Something can be wrong but not criminal or even something for which a civil remedy of damges is available. What they did was wrong. Administration opponents KEEP playing into the Administration's hands by allowing (or causing) the wrong standard to be set for judging tyheir conduct. Politicians should be held to a much higher standard than "I wasn't convicted" or "the court did not order me to pay damages." By investing so much energy and emotion tin the legal outcomes, we are allowing the discussion of what happened to be hidden in the background.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Slado on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 10:59:49 AM EST
    Jimcee I appreciate your role as centrist but I really can't see how anyone can conclude anything other then this case is a loser. If someone wants to hold on to the belief that something fishy happened because they hate Bush then so be it. I can't change their mind about not liking bush. Again the lawyer who both you and Dadler call a political shrill actually wrote the law that is in question. Are you challenging her legal opinion on fact or on emotion? While she may be a republican and may want to see the Wilsons go down in flames facts are facts. Dadler, also God speed to you and your brother. This is after all a blog. I don't take anything personally so rant away. If I couldn't take it I wouldn't keep coming back for scolding from jimcee. Peace

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 11:48:24 AM EST
    Dec - I'll buy Rove bad when the Left says Wilson, Sheehan, et al bad.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 12:27:26 PM EST
    CT-Sen: Lieberman mulls running as a Republican
    linked textkos As I have said before, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jeb Bush and Holy Joe as running mates for the Republican ticket in the '08 presidential election. That would be hard to beat.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 02:48:55 PM EST
    I'll concede that I am not to the Left of the people who post here but I am definitely to the Left in terms of american society. To me, Wilson even putting this episiode aside, is a great example of what is wrong with out diplomatic corps. Wealth and connections always influence position, but the diplomatic corps (foreign service and political appointed) suffeers from this even more than the norm and, I think it has even worse consequences because there are of course the people responsible for the day-to-day representation of our government abroad. Domination by elitists helps project an inaccurate and I think unhelpful image. Beyond that, as I have said before, I Wilson is a good model for anyone trying to create the worse possible "leader" to take on the administration. Vain, crass, devious, diingenuous and a whole host of other unflattering adjectives spring to mind. Sheehan, I feel sorry for her. I disagree striongly with her tactics and question her mental well-being but I view her as more of a pawn.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 03:25:25 PM EST
    They say never say never but Holy Joe just did:
    This morning, Election Central posed the question in a phone call to campaign deputy press secretary Noah Kores. He said the campaign would get back to us, and we said we'd let you know when (or if) the campaign did. Well, now it has, and their answer is: "Joe Lieberman will never run as a Republican. Never."
    TPM Cafe via atrios We'll see....

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimcee on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 06:51:35 PM EST
    Dadler, Firstly, I hope everything works out for you as you have an awful lot on your plate. Best wishes. On the Plame affair the GJ has spoken and there is only one non-related indictment that has come out of the whole investigation. I think that the Nixon reference is an inapt analogy as he was about to be indicted and tried to fire the person who rolled him. There is no indictment now, in otherwords no provable charges and I would imagine that kind of limits the scope of the First Amendment basis of his suit. Joseph Wilson did not have his 1st Amendment rights abridged as he was allowed to publicy disagree (everywhere) with the administration. Cheney, if he was the person who exposed Wilson's wife to the press, then as long as she wasn't covert within the prior five years, he was well within his 1st amendment rights. As well. Mr Wilson said what he said and Cheney said what he said both constutionally with no laws broken and everyone's rights intact. Mrs Wilson was not fired from her job she resigned. What Mr Wilson did for a living at the time is still a mystery to me. She still had her job, wasn't fired or even 'assigned' to the broom closet. When Wilson stepped into the ring of national debate he opened himself up to the prying eyes of the political world. I don't think he was so naive that he couldn't see that political retribution would be headed his way. Slado, I agree that this will go nowhere but find no harm in the Wilsons filing suit. I also think that this should make for some political fun. Unfortunatly it also stokes the false hopes of those true believers just as the whole Fitzmas kerfuffle did. It is the Lucy and the football thing all over again. Honestly I can think of many things that are more important then the posuer Mr Wilson and his Vanity Fair spouse filing a dubious lawsuit because they just can't stand not being in the spotlight. As I said before this whole trip from Wilson being suggested by Plame, to his initial editorial in the NYTimes was nothing more than a political ploy on the part of the Dems. Afterall he did work for the Kerry campaign. Dadler, Again best to you.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 19, 2006 at 08:32:00 PM EST
    Is this a hate crime? From the Chicago Tribune: "A 14-year-old boy attacked in a park in Chicago's West Beverly neighborhood remained in a drug-induced coma Tuesday afternoon while one of the teens accused in the incident appeared before a Juvenile Court judge and a second was charged in the case. Ryan Rusch was walking in Beverly Park, on the city's Far South Side, Sunday afternoon when police say he was approached by three young males and hit in the back of the head." One of the attackers admitted that he was picked because of his race. Should they be charged with a hate crime?

    Tuesday Open Thread | 36 comments (36 topical)