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Tuesday Open Thread

I'm on the road today and tomorrow. Here's a space for you to discuss whatever's on your mind. I'll be checking in periodically, but blogging will be light on my end.

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  • Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:18:24 AM EST
    You could be on a secret government database or watch list for simply taking a picture on an airplane. Some federal air marshals say they're reporting your actions to meet a quota, even though some top officials deny it.
    Josh MarshallQuotas for spies in order to move up in the bureaucracy? Not good. Sounds like McCarthyism Soviet style.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:19:57 AM EST
    Sen Inhofe compares those who believe in global warming to Nazis

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by theologicus on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:25:59 AM EST
    Today's headlines (a select list)
    UN slams Israel over Lebanon strikes as killing rages on Israel warns it will hit 10 buildings for every rocket fired Bombings Hit Children Hardest Human Rights Watch: Israel using cluster munitions in Lebanon Lebanon president: Israel uses phosphorous arms Hezbollah rockets hit Haifa: Five Injured UN executive Jan Egeland blames Hezbollah for deaths Egeland to Hezbollah: Stop 'cowardly blending' among civilians UN Human Rights Commissioner warns of war crimes in Lebanon International Commission of Jurists: Israel, Hizbullah committing war crimes
    It is no longer a choice between violence and nonviolence in this world; it's nonviolence or nonexistence. That is where we are today. --Martin Luther King, Jr., 3 April 1968

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:57:09 AM EST
    Gulf dead-zone bigger than ever. And Inhofe is the biggest head-case in the US, aside from Bush himself, that is.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 08:47:56 AM EST
    Peter Galbraith in the latest New York Review of Books.
    On his return, Bush held a press conference during which, it seemed, he could barely contain his enthusiasm. In response to a question about progress in providing electricity, producing oil, and controlling violence, he swerved into a discussion of his encounter with the speaker of Iraq's parliament, Mahmoud al-Mashhadani. The President didn't seem to recall his name but readily remembered his religion:
    The Sunni--I was impressed, by the way, by the Speaker--Denny Hastert told me I'd like him; Denny met with him. And I was impressed by him. He's a fellow that had been put in prison by Saddam and, interestingly enough, put in prison by us. And he made a decision to participate in the government. And he was an articulate person. He talked about running the parliament. It was interesting to see a person that could have been really bitter talk about the skills he's going to need to bring people together to run the parliament. And I found him to be a hopeful person. They tell me that he wouldn't have taken my phone call a year ago--I think I might have shared this with you at one point in time--and there I was, sitting next to the guy. And I think he enjoyed it as much as I did. It was a refreshing moment.
    The incurious White House press corps never asked the obvious question: Why had the United States jailed al-Mashhadani? According to Sunnis and Shiites at the top levels of government in Iraq, al-Mashhadani was a member of, or closely associated with, two al-Qaeda-linked terrorists groups, Ansar Islam and Ansar al-Sunna. The first operated until 2003 in a no man's land high in the mountains between Iraqi Kurdistan and Iran while the second has been responsible for some of the worse terrorist attacks on Iraq's Shiites and Kurds. The Iraqis say they gave the Americans specific intelligence on al-Mashhadani's affiliations with those groups and his actions in support of terrorists. None of this seems to have mattered to a president who is as casual in his approach to national security as his defense secretary. At the same press conference Bush repeated that "the American people have got to understand that Iraq is a part of the war on terror."


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Punchy on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 09:28:01 AM EST
    14% INCREASE--yes, I said increase--in the number of adults since Feb. 2005 that think Iraq had WMDs when we invaded. 50% now believe Iraq had WMDs. I just cannot believe how ignorant my fellow Americans truly are....

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 09:32:36 AM EST
    I'm reposting the ESPN link to a story about former NFL player Pat Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan. What is most disturbing is the attitude of an officer who oversaw the first inquiry into his death. The religious extremism this officer puts on display is flat-out disturbing, and evidences a stunning lack of respect for the "freedom of religion" he's supposedly defending on our dime. Kauzlarich, now a battalion commanding officer at Fort Riley in Kansas, further suggested the Tillman family's unhappiness with the findings of past investigations might be because of the absence of a Christian faith in their lives. In an interview with ESPN.com, Kauzlarich said: "When you die, I mean, there is supposedly a better life, right? Well, if you are an atheist and you don't believe in anything, if you die, what is there to go to? Nothing. You are worm dirt. So for their son to die for nothing, and now he is no more -- that is pretty hard to get your head around that. So I don't know how an atheist thinks. I can only imagine that that would be pretty tough." Asked by ESPN.com whether the Tillmans' religious beliefs are a factor in the ongoing investigation, Kauzlarich said, "I think so. There is not a whole lot of trust in the system or faith in the system [by the Tillmans]. So that is my personal opinion, knowing what I know." Asked what might finally placate the family, Kauzlarich said, "You know what? I don't think anything will make them happy, quite honestly. I don't know. Maybe they want to see somebody's head on a platter. But will that really make them happy? No, because they can't bring their son back." Kauzlarich, now 40, was the Ranger regiment executive officer in Afghanistan, who played a role in writing the recommendation for Tillman's posthumous Silver Star. And finally, with his fingerprints already all over many of the hot-button issues, including the question of who ordered the platoon to be split as it dragged a disabled Humvee through the mountains, Kauzlarich conducted the first official Army investigation into Tillman's death. That investigation is among the inquiries that didn't satisfy the Tillman family. "Well, this guy makes disparaging remarks about the fact that we're not Christians, and the reason that we can't put Pat to rest is because we're not Christians," Mary Tillman, Pat's mother, said in an interview with ESPN.com. Mary Tillman casts the family as spiritual, though she said it does not believe in many of the fundamental aspects of organized religion.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 09:35:12 AM EST
    Add Tillman story: And it's telling how in discussing their "lack of Christian faith", this officer equates that with "faith in the system". What f'ing system is that? The Evangelical Christian Army Investigation Systsem? This guy should be demoted and quickly.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 10:05:33 AM EST
    Jesus, proofread, that should be: And it's telling how in discussing their "lack of Christian faith", this officer equates that with "LACK OF faith in the system".

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 10:24:22 AM EST
    Dadler - Tillman? He's dead. He was killed by friendly fire. There may have been a cover up. His parents are unhappy. I don't blame them. But this says it best.
    Asked what might finally placate the family, Kauzlarich said, "You know what? I don't think anything will make them happy, quite honestly. I don't know. Maybe they want to see somebody's head on a platter. But will that really make them happy? No, because they can't bring their son back."
    So what is your point in this matter? I think you want to use it to attack the military. You're guilty of doing the same thing you accuse the military of... using Pat Tillman.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by theologicus on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:19:26 AM EST
    Lebanon in the wider war Paul Rogers 25 July 2006
    ... First, almost two weeks of air strikes have had little effect either on the Hizbollah leadership or on the militia's ability to continue to wage its campaign against Israel. The destruction of civilian neighbourhoods in southern Beirut, apparently part of an attempt to kill a number of Hizbollah leaders, failed in its immediate objective and has proved counter-productive in its effect on the civilian population. . . . Second, Hizbollah is proving capable of continuing with its missile attacks - around 300 were launched from 22-24 July alone, including another salvo fired against Haifa on Sunday. . . . Third, when Israeli ground troops do engage with Hizbollah militia close to the border they discover an adversary that is determined, well-trained and well-armed. Hizbollah may lack airpower and it has none of the IDF's heavy artillery, yet it is well-practised in guerrilla warfare and will almost certainly be impossible to dislodge with anything short of a full-scale Israeli invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon. . . . Whatever else happens in the coming weeks - whether the war in Lebanon intensifies or ends in an early stalemate - one impact will be a considerable boost to support for the wider al-Qaida movement. In that sense, President Bush's view of the Israeli operations in Lebanon as being an essential part of his global war on terror might well prove correct, but in ways very far from those he intends.
    Paul Rogers is Global Security Consultant to the Oxford Research Group.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by theologicus on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:28:34 AM EST
    Morality is not on our side By Ze'ev Maoz Ha'aretz 25 July 2006
    There's practically a holy consensus right now that the war in the North is a just war and that morality is on our side. The bitter truth must be said: this holy consensus is based on short-range selective memory, an introverted worldview, and double standards. 

 This war is not a just war. Israel is using excessive force without distinguishing between civilian population and enemy, whose sole purpose is extortion. That is not to say that morality and justice are on Hezbollah's side. Most certainly not. But the fact that Hezbollah "started it" when it kidnapped soldiers from across an international border does not even begin to tilt the scales of justice toward our side. 
... There is a propaganda aspect to this war, and it involves a competition as to who is more miserable. Each side tries to persuade the world that it is more miserable. As in every propaganda campaign, the use of information is selective, distorted and self-righteous. If we want to base our information (or shall we call it propaganda?) policy on the assumption that the international environment is going to buy the dubious merchandise that we are selling, be it out of ignorance or hypocrisy, then fine. But in terms of our own national soul searching, we owe ourselves to confront the bitter truth - maybe we will win this conflict on the military field, maybe we will make some diplomatic gains, but on the moral plane, we have no advantage, and we have no special status.
    
 The writer is a professor of political science at Tel Aviv university.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:36:18 AM EST
    Jim, You KNOW what my point was, and you chose to purposefully ignore the inflammatory and discriminatory remark made by the officer. Don't play dumb, my man. Not with me. I thought we were closer than that. The ugly fact is this ranking officer's ignorance, fundamentalist-based discriminatory tendencies, and lack of critical brains are on full display in this article. And he was in charge of the initial investigation. Come on. They kick GAY people outta the military just for being gay and this guy is still IN the military? Please. The stench is overwhelming. The larger point of the story, obviously, is how the truth was kept from this family, and how the military USED Tillman for PR purposes, for purposes of covering their own asses, knowing full well they were propagating a lie. And no one has been held to account for this slap in the face of the honor the military supposedly is based on.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 11:47:46 AM EST
    The next time someone tries to sling the line that "we never could have anticipated [the latest atrocity or insurgent attack] in Iraq", please refer to this interesting pamphlet, "The U.S. Army Campaigns of the Mexican War - The Occupation of Mexico, May 1846-July 1848". And, don't hesitate to call the Admin bullsh*t for what it is. Choice quotes:
    Both the occupation and the insurgency reflected existing sociopolitical realities of Mexico. Indeed, the country's deep and often violent racial, ethnic, and social divisions further complicated the task of the occupying forces. Regional variations between northern and central Mexico, differences between the composition of Zachary Taylor and Winfield Scott's armies and the threats they faced, and-not least the great difference in policies pursued by the two commanders meant that the U.S. Army conducted not one but two very different occupations in Mexico during 1846-48. "
    A deeply divided, multi-cultural/lingual country not well understood by the invaders.
    "Taylor quickly achieved the purely military objectives that the Polk administration assigned him. Within four months, he won decisive battles ... forcing Mexico's Army of the North to withdraw some 400 miles south from the Rio Grande to San Luis Potosi. Taylor's occupation of northern Mexico, however, did not compel Mexico's government to sell any of the territories sought by the United States as President Polk had hoped. In fact, the situation in northern Mexico deteriorated rapidly in response to the local depredations of the volunteer troops.
    Rapid, overwhelming military victory by the invaders, who then start taking it out on the populace.
    "Until June 1846, Taylor's army consisted of Regular Army troops who enjoyed some popularity with the citizenry. ... The U.S. Army had immediately set up hospitals to minister to the sick and wounded and had provided for the basic needs of the townspeople. "The dynamic changed when volunteers moved into the area and immediately began raiding the local farms. As the boredom of garrison duty began to set in, plundering, personal assaults, rape, and other crimes against Mexicans quickly multiplied. During the first month after the volunteers arrived, some twenty murders occurred.
    No military justice and violence, leads to a growing insurrection. Pro-war cabinet secretaries befuddled when bullets , not flowers and candies, fly at US troops.
    "Initially, Taylor seemed uninterested in devising diversions to occupy his men and failed to stop the attacks. As thefts, assaults, rapes, murders, and other crimes perpetrated by the volunteers mounted and Taylor failed to discipline his men, ordinary Mexican citizens began to have serious reservations about the American invasion. Taylor's lackadaisical approach to discipline produced an effect utterly unanticipated by the Polk administration, many of whose members, particularly pro-expansionists such as Secretary of the Treasury Robert J. Walker, believed that Mexicans would welcome the Americans as liberators. Instead, public opinion turned against the Americans and began to create a climate for guerrilla bands to form in the area. Mexicans from all social backgrounds took up arms. Some of them were trained soldiers; others were average citizens bent upon retaliating against the Americans because of attacks against family members orfriends. Criminals joined in, and bandits and highwaymen began to flourish, looking for easy prey.
    Revenge attacks.
    "As Taylor's force moved up the Rio Grande and its lines of communications extended, irregulars began to capture and kill stragglers, the sick, and the wounded who fell behind on long marches.
    Jessica Lynch, anyone?
    "The local populace increasingly appeared more than willing to support and shield the guerrillas. The volunteers' racism, anti-Catholcism and violence provided all the motive that locals needed to oppose the occupation. Guerrilla attacks grew more frequent after the battle for Monterrey, when Brig. Gen. William J. Worth, the new military governor of the city, discontinued military patrols in the town for a short time, allowing a bloodletting to occur.
    The Geneva Conventions don't really apply....
    "Taylor appointed officers to serve as military governors of all major towns that he occupied. Each military governor had authority to make whatever rules he wished. There was no official military governing policy at the time. Observers estimated that volunteer troops killed some 100 civilians, including many who had been killed by Col. John C. Hays' 1st Texas Mounted Volunteers. A few weeks later, apparently in retaliation, Mexicans killed a lone soldier from a Texas regiment just outside Monterrey. Rangers under Capt. Mabry B. "Mustang" Gray responded by killing some twenty-four unarmed Mexican men. The event galvanized much of the population against Taylor's Army of Occupation. "The boredom of occupation duty led to additional waves of violence. During November 1846, for example, a detachment from the 1st Kentucky regiment shot a young Mexican boy, apparently for sport, and Taylor again failed to bring any of the guilty soldiers to justice.
    And all this led to a vicious indigenous insurgent campaign, fueled by the US troops' own brutality. N.B. One of Taylor's subordinate commanders was Col. Jefferson Davis.... Compare this to Winfield Scott's performance, written up in the same pamphlet. He paid attention to history, implemented military justice and strict discipline, won the hearts and minds of the locals (or at least gave them no reason to join the insurgents) and succeded where Taylor failed.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 12:44:10 PM EST
    jane hamsher of firedoglake is refused entry to the clinton stump speech for lieberman. we don't take it lying down. skippy calls the big dog.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:21:42 PM EST
    Not surprisingly, many Lebanese have contempt for American "aid" when America is speeding up delivery of weapons to Israel that are used to bomb them.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:38:37 PM EST
    Your federal tax dollars at work. As if New York traffic wasn't already bad enough.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:45:29 PM EST
    But Punchy ~ They intimidated people with their ghoulish make-up. And they were ssssccccaaaaaaarrryyyyy.....

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by scribe on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 02:51:50 PM EST
    Another upshot of Hudson v. Michigan - police break a hole through the door, then shoot Yayo the dog (while the toddler stands a foot or so behind it). But, to make nice, they had Animal Control offer the family a pit bull puppy to make up for the one they killed....

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:03:55 PM EST
    Punchy.... 50% now believe Iraq had WMDs. I just cannot believe how ignorant my fellow Americans truly are.... Sorry to have to tell you this...but over 500 have been found. Do you listen/read to anything other than TL? Who's really the ignorant one?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 03:25:57 PM EST
    What's with Dershowitz, now that he's a charter member of the death cult. ???
    Every civilian death is a tragedy, but some are more tragic than others.
    ??? Show me a bomb that can tell the difference.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:01:02 PM EST
    Sorry to have to tell you this...but over 500 have been found. Do you listen/read to anything other than TL? Who's really the ignorant one?
    You are, and even bush and the dod say so. Iraq is in civil war, afghanistan is being retaken by the taliban, poppy production is at record levels, pakistan is going to increase their weapons grade plutonium output 20 times, we're giving nuke tech to india so they can increase their bombs, NK has nukes and missles and bush is directly responsible for all of it. Bush has now killed almost as many americans as AQ, and OBL (remember him?) is sitting in a cave somewhere laughing his a$$ off. He got everything he wanted by playing the cowboy idiot for the cowardly moron he is.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:11:22 PM EST
    So what is your point in this matter?
    That the captain quoted said they were unhappy because they didn't believe in christ. And the military still hasn't released the full results to the family, They've lied and dragged their heels from the git go, they used his corpse as a political tool, and now they say it's because the family isn't christian. BTW, many folks' heads should be on platters, starting with this officer. Not a demotion, a drumming out of the ranks, he isn't fit to serve in the US military. Instead of deliberately ignoring and insulting and baiting, why doesn't ppj respond to "is it OK to castigate the family members of a dead soldier because they aren't christian?"

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Lww on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:17:39 PM EST
    Democrats in the house are calling for the retraction of the invitation to Iraqi PM Maliki to speak at a joint meeting of Congress. Apparently Maliki thought the Israelis have over-reacted in Lebanon, a sentiment shared by many. Rep. Tim Bishop D-NY (The Hamptons)actually said that the reason we went to war in Iraq was to install a government friendly to Israel. Bout time someone told the truth, enough lies about WMD's. I called Rep Bishop's office in DC to see if someone there could clarify his remarks and( I couldn't believe it) the intern who answered the phone had an Israeli accent! You can't make this stuff up.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by chuckj on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:28:33 PM EST
    Iraq is in civil war, afghanistan is being retaken by the taliban, poppy production is at record levels
    Run! Save yourselves! Head for the hills! What's next, California gonna break off and sink into the sea? Maybe global warming? We're doomed, doomed I tell you! Now, where's my cloud seeding apparatus, I need to start a huricane. We'll call it Katrina 2. Give me a break.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:39:56 PM EST
    shorter chuckj: can't refute any of the facts so I make a funny...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:54:30 PM EST
    chuskie, since you work for the government in the propaganda division why don't you try facts and links instead of insults. from Radio Free Europe:
    Despite the government's efforts to eradicate opium cultivation, Afghanistan's southern Helmand Province is heading for a bumper crop of opium poppies this year. Many farmers who had stopped growing poppies in respect for the ban decreed by President Hamid Karzai -- have come back to it.

    They have done so in many cases because their economic situation has worsened and they often receive help, understanding, and protection from the ever-stronger Taliban. These are the findings of the latest report from the Senlis Council, which is headed by Emmanuel Reinert.
    Rumsfeld links drug trade with resurgence of Taliban
    Want more chuckles? Or do you think rummy and RFE are leftwing liars, like you accused all the media of?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Dadler on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 04:56:38 PM EST
    chuckj, i have a brother fighting in afghanistan and find it amazing that so many americans, with a tendency just as reactionary as those you criticize, cannot bear to face the ugly realities of how we abandoned afghanistan and the real hunt for AQ and OBL, to bring to life the neo-cons' egomaniacal wet-dream delusions in Iraq. because of their rank and disgraceful failures, our undermanned soldiers in afghanistan are the ones who are paying, as are the PEOPLE of afghanistan, whom we supposedly were out to free.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 05:11:24 PM EST
    LWW - Have you heard anything yet about the former Representatives plans for his return to the private sector?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 06:58:50 PM EST
    Dadler wrote:
    The religious extremism this officer puts on display is flat-out disturbing, and evidences a stunning lack of respect for the "freedom of religion" he's supposedly defending on our dime....This guy should be demoted and quickly.
    Sailor wrote:
    BTW, many folks' heads should be on platters, starting with this officer. Not a demotion, a drumming out of the ranks, he isn't fit to serve in the US military.
    Dadler and Sailor both seem to suggest that the officer in question allowed his religious conviction and/or the Tillman family's lack of religious conviction to influence the Army's investigation of the circumstances that led to Pat Tillman's death. I don't see any evidence that such is the case. Mary Tillman is quoted as saying:
    This guy makes disparaging remarks about the fact that we're not Christians.
    Sailor writes:
    Is it OK to castigate the family members of a dead soldier because they aren't christian?
    Mary Tillman and Sailor both seem to suggest that the officer is been critical of the Tillman's lack of religious beliefs. I don't see any evidence that such is the case. In this article, the officer in question was asked directly by a reporter whether he felt that the Tillmans's religous beliefs impacted their actions. He responded by suggesting that coping with the death of a loved one might be more difficult for non-Christians because Christians often find comfort in death through belief in a life hereafter. His response does not seem extreme to me (nor does it seem particularly critical of those who don't believe in an afterlife). There is no suggestion in any of the material quoted that the officer in question allowed this belief to influence his actions in any way. In fact, Army investigations seem to be ongoing. What we owe each other in a pluralistic religious society is fair treatment regardless of our religious beliefs and acceptance of our religious differences. Based on the evidence I see here, the officer in this case seems more a victim of religious intolerance than a perpetrator.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:12:33 PM EST
    Hey Dadler, I hope you're still following the thread. I posted the Tillman link on my blog and contacted the author. Thanks, I would have missed that baout Tillman w/o you pointing it out. (BTW, Mike Fish wrote back, but just a thanks and acknowlegement, I'll let you know if he has more to say.)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 07:52:38 PM EST
    BB: Sorry to have to tell you this...but over 500 have been found. Do you listen/read to anything other than TL? Maybe Punchy listens to/reads NBC:
    But defense officials said Thursday that the weapons were not considered likely to be dangerous because of their age, which they determined to be pre-1991. Pentagon officials told NBC News that the munitions are the same kind of ordnance the U.S. military has been gathering in Iraq for the past several years, and "not the WMD we were looking for when we went in this time."


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 08:18:23 PM EST
    Curious that the hot topic of the draft is not on anyones mind. Especially since Newt who is running for presnut wants to call the war on terrorism WW3. NYT runs big article complete with pix of GWB giving citizenship to alien dismembered soldiers. Rumor was Rummy wanted a third world mercenary army. So it is fact and has come to pass. Not reported in the media. Not to worry about our sons and daugters. That is unless you are poor and the military is the best offer you can get.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 08:45:17 PM EST
    Dadler and Sailor both seem to suggest that the officer in question allowed his religious conviction and/or the Tillman family's lack of religious conviction to influence the Army's investigation
    did you read the article? Did you come to a different conclusion? Can you link to why?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Jul 25, 2006 at 09:42:59 PM EST
    Sailor - Did we read the same article? Perhaps you could point to something in it that indicates either the officer's or the Tillman's religious beliefs had any bearing on the investigation into the circumstances surrounding Pat Tillman's death. I scanned the article again and found no basis for such a claim. The Army seems to be guilty of many crimes here. They seem to have been first more concerned with the public relations impact of Pat Tillman's death, and then more concerned with covering up and excusing their initial actions. Ultimately, they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to an honest investigation. But nowhere do I get the sense that Pat Tillman was shot because of his religious beliefs. Nowhere do I get the sense that the Army lied about the circumstances surrounding his death because of his religious beliefs. I am frankly shocked that anyone could see it differently, which is why sensed a certain intolerance in the cited posts. If I am wrong, let me know where. - Dave

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:19:00 AM EST
    Look like the village voice has been smothered. No more Sutton political cartoons that I could find. Am I wrong?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:20:27 AM EST
    Look like the village voice has been smothered. No more Sutton political cartoons that I could find. Am I wrong?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 12:25:28 AM EST
    Sutton where ever you are. You were the best. We new it could'nt last. Thanks for what you have done.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by john horse on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 03:58:41 AM EST
    Accordng to Juan Cole, the Dawa party, the political party that the Iraqi Prime Minister al-Maliki belongs to, helped form Hizbullah in the 80s. As a matter of fact, al-Maliki was Dawa bureau chief in Damascas during the early 80's. According to Bush we are in Iraq in order to fight "terrorism". Over 2500 Americans have been killed to establish a government that has close relationships with terrorists. In the Alice in Wonderland world that is Iraq, things keep getting "curiouser and curiouser".

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by John Mann on Wed Jul 26, 2006 at 06:22:23 AM EST
    From the BBC
    Israeli troops 'ignored' UN plea Israeli strike in Khiam, south Lebanon Israel had hit Khiam a number of times earlier on Tuesday UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Patrick on Sun Jul 30, 2006 at 04:10:28 PM EST
    When I went to check TL this PM, the main page is blank, except for ads and recent comments. I can access the threads via recent comments, but no other way...Anyone else having this trouble?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by Patrick on Sun Jul 30, 2006 at 04:10:51 PM EST
    When I went to check TL this PM, the main page is blank, except for ads and recent comments. I can access the threads via recent comments, but no other way...Anyone else having this trouble?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Sailor on Sun Jul 30, 2006 at 04:36:34 PM EST
    I am Patrick. It also seems that many comments have been deleted on the threads that survive. I don't think it was because they were objectionable, it seems to be a bug.