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Friday News and Open Thread

I've got court today, here's some prison news and sundry items and an open thread, all topics are welcome. And thanks to all of you for your donations this week, I'll be sending personalized thank you's this weekend.

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    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by roy on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 09:36:29 AM EST
    Interesting article about the Feds' accounting rules. Good to refer to next time we argue about the budget.
    The set [of books] the government promotes to the public has a healthier bottom line: a $318 billion deficit in 2005. The set the government doesn't talk about is the audited financial statement produced by the government's accountants following standard accounting rules. It reports a more ominous financial picture: a $760 billion deficit for 2005. If Social Security and Medicare were included -- as the board that sets accounting rules is considering -- the federal deficit would have been $3.5 trillion.
    Fortunately, I can stop praising President Clinton for balancing the budget (mostly joking):
    The Clinton administration reported a surplus of $559 billion in its final four budget years. The audited numbers showed a deficit of $484 billion.


    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by cpinva on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:24:42 AM EST
    actually roy, both sets are crocks, as they are based, not on GAAP for profit making businesses, but on GAAP for Governmental Accounting, two almost entirely different sets of rules. this is one of the reasons most professionals, myself included (cpa) hate governmental accounting. it in no way provides a reasonably accurate picture of the financial status of the entity, at a given point in time. with regards to the prison artist: a. it doesn't appear, from the story, that he was engaging in a profit making enterprise, unless charitable giving is now considered a for profit activity. b. the guy's already serving multiple life terms, how do you add to that, keep him there after he's dead?

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Andreas on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:26:20 AM EST
    The WSWS writes:
    The US-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) accused Israel of committing war crimes in a 50-page report released yesterday. Titled "Fatal Strikes: Israel's indiscriminate attacks against civilians in Lebanon", the report provided additional proof that the Zionist state is deliberately targeting civilians as part of its criminal strategy to terrorise and drive out the population of southern Lebanon. "The pattern of attacks during the Israeli offensive in Lebanon suggests that the failures [to distinguish between combatants and civilians] cannot be explained or dismissed as mere accidents," the report explained. "[T]he extent of the pattern and seriousness of the consequences indicate the commission of war crimes." ... The litany of war crimes catalogued in the report provide overwhelming evidence that the Israeli offensive in Lebanon has nothing to do with fighting "terrorism" or with recovering the two IDF soldiers captured by Hezbollah last month. The assault is the culmination of years of military and political strategic planning within Israel, aimed at reducing Lebanon to the status of a degraded protectorate of the Zionist state, and crushing all anti-Israeli resistance in the country. The murder of hundreds of civilians and the creation of nearly a million Lebanese refugees is a central and necessary component of this criminal strategy.
    Human Rights Watch catalogues Israeli war crimes in Lebanon By Rick Kelly, 4 August 2006

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Andreas on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:31:00 AM EST
    The report published by Human Rights Watch is available here: Fatal Strikes Israel's Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:03:32 PM EST
    On a lighter note here is a report about someone who did a kind of entrepreneurial inversion of a "Claude Allen". link via robot wisdom

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by Slado on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:08:46 PM EST
    Andreas Does WSWS or HRW spend any time on the other side of the boarder cataloging what the Hezzbollah missles do or do they work directly for Hezzbollah and not bother? Furthuremore do they approve or dissaprove of Hezzbollahs obvious strategy of hiding amoungst civilians, storing weapons in Mosks, schools and hospitals and directly targeting civilians on the other side in response? Just wondering.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by theologicus on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:12:49 PM EST
    Just wondering. You could relive yourself of wonder (and misinformation) by reading the report.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by theologicus on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:14:00 PM EST
    Make that "relieve."

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Andreas on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:24:22 PM EST
    Slado obviously neither read the HRW report nor the WSWS article. The WSWS write:
    The report also produced further evidence that the Israeli military has systematically covered up and lied about its attacks on Lebanese civilians. "Human Rights Watch found no cases in which Hezbollah deliberately used civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF [Israeli Defence Force] attack," it stated, contradicting Israeli claims. "In none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in this report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah forces or weapons were in or near the area that the IDF targeted during or just prior to the attack." These conclusions were drawn from extensive on-the-ground investigations by HRW staff in Lebanon. Researchers conducted interviews with victims and witnesses of Israeli attacks, and corroborated these reports with their own inspections of attack sites, and information from hospitals, humanitarian groups and government bodies. This process was conducted for a selection of Israeli missile and artillery strikes that killed a total of 153 civilians--more than one-third of the total reported Lebanese deaths in the first two weeks of the war.


    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:46:39 PM EST
    Andreas...facts will never get in the way of Slado's line of thought. Propaganda rules the day and Israel is doing god's work. Soon it will be on to a wider conflagration with Iran and Syria. Should be a fun ride for all.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by jen on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:55:03 PM EST
    Only other people have to behave. The US and its allies do not.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by Sailor on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 01:13:15 PM EST
    Does WSWS or HRW spend any time on the other side of the boarder cataloging what the Hezzbollah missles do
    sldao, ever heard of google?
    Hezbollah and Israel must not under any circumstances attack civilians in Israel and Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called on all sides to scrupulously respect the absolute prohibition against targeting civilians or carrying out attacks that indiscriminately harm civilians.
    the org is Human Rights Watch

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 03:54:21 PM EST
    Bush Elects to give himself more power.
    "As president, I strongly believe that my first duty as president is to support and serve the president,"
    The President speaks as a Third Person. Dick Cheney's on second. The riddle is who's on first.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by Lww on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 04:06:46 PM EST
    Does anyone in here think the Israeli tactics remind them of the good old days when American planes bombed the crap out've civilians? You know, the forties and the sixties/early seventies. Didn't the country get a good jolt of how powerful we were and how our money was being so well spent? Do they wear nehru jackets in Israel?

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 05:27:26 PM EST
    LWW - Uh, I seem to remember from my history class that we were engaged in something called WWII during the 40's. Your inclusion of WWII in your rant demonbstrates, again, that your grasp on relaity is terribly thin. Sailor - So why didn't Andreas quote both sides? And the answer is, he has a case of judophobia.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Lww on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 05:45:34 PM EST
    Jim, you ignored the main point. Very conveniently. Did they wear nehru jackets in the forties? If I remember my history class( thank God for that radical Christian Brother)we incinerated millions during WW2. Alot of people struggle with the moral relativism of the US and England killing countless Germans and Japanese from the air while the Germans and Japanese did their killing on the ground.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by squeaky on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 06:04:37 PM EST
    Riverbend has a new post up. She titles it Summer of Goodbyes... Her days may be numbered in Baghdad. The middle class is moving out big time, and not always voluntarily.
    Some families are waking up to find a Klashnikov bullet and a letter in an envelope with the words "Leave your area or else."
    She writes about wearing a hijab:
    I realized how common it had become only in mid-July when M., a childhood friend, came to say goodbye before leaving the country.[snip] As she told me about one of her neighbors being shot, she opened up the scarf with a flourish, set it on her head like a pro, and pinned it snuggly under her chin with the precision of a seasoned hijab-wearer. All this without a mirror- like she had done it a hundred times over... Which would be fine, except that M. is Christian.
    Worth a read as always. Riverbend

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by JSN on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 06:10:59 PM EST
    One the features of the just war doctrine is that one is supposed to avoid killing and wounding civilians. However the key feature of MAD (mutual assured destruction) was the threat of killing and wounding an estimated 100 million civilans. WW II may have been a "Good War" but it was not a "Just War". Arabs and Israelis have been killing each other for the past 58 years. Most of the time the kill rate is low perhaps 5 or 10/month. Now it is about 20 to 30/day which is what the kill rate has been in Iraq for the past three years. The fighting in Leabonon has distracted attention from Iraq where the kill rate the past two months is about 100/day or more. It has also distracted attention from Gaza and I have no idea what the kill rate is there. We are so scewed up that we think that a low kill rate is peace.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 07:38:40 PM EST
    Squeaky, Thanks for the heads up. I was wondering when she would start talking of leaving. Iraq (at least the southern half) belongs to the islamic fundamentalists now. Our presence there is now irrelevant.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimcee on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 08:47:33 PM EST
    LWW, Please read about WWII, lots of innocents killed. The Allies did kill a lot of people from the air and in total war that reduces your casualities and increases those of your enemy. War sucks. As far as the Axis powers using ground troops to fight and to you that makes them better? So when the Japanese used forced marches in the Phillipines and enslaved the survivors, raped Nanking and enslaved conquered women as concubines, the Nazis herded millions to thier deaths by trains with the aquiessence of the Vichy gov'ts of thier subservient countries and that is ok because ...they didn't use air-power? And according to you that is AOK because they were more discriminate than if they used air attacks? War is all hell, whether airborne or land based. I find it hard to believe that some corresponents here are in a sense defending the Axis powers because they were more 'hands on', land based if you will. Between the folks who think its fine to do a 'shuffle and jive' characture of an opponent in a primary and now someone making inapt historical references to past wars I am starting to wonder about the seriousness of TL's comments section. Jim Crow couldn't be reached for comments.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 09:22:43 PM EST
    "Judophobia." And ppj cant help it if the thought of brown people sneaking across the border (in Texas or the former Palestine) makes him want to get a cross and a can of gasoline.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 09:36:14 PM EST
    Please read about WWII,
    ahh, ya wanna see atrocities, see the Boer war, or better, the French and Indian War, by golly now, them was some atrocities. Next!

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Andreas on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 09:58:38 PM EST
    The sharp escalation of the attacks against Lebanon Friday have made it abundantly clear that the objective of this US-Israeli war of aggression is to demolish Lebanon as an independent and sovereign country. The war is aimed at transforming the country into an occupied territory controlled by the US and Israel, perhaps through the medium of a NATO "peacekeeping" force. The destruction of Lebanon is being carried out quite deliberately, and with very definite designs. For Israel, it is yet again a matter of annexation of more territory. And for Washington, it is the preparation of new and even bloodier wars, directed in the first instance against Syria and Iran. The pretense that this war is being waged to defend Israel from terrorism or even to destroy the Shiite Hezbollah movement is belied by the Israeli bombing campaign that is now striking targets and claiming victims far from the Shiite centers of south Lebanon and the southern suburbs of Beirut.
    US-Israeli war aim is to annihilate Lebanon By the Editorial Board of the WSWS, 5 August 2006

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:24:20 PM EST
    jimcee - Criticizing the way a tactic is applied in a particular context dosnt automatically translate into disapproving of it's use all through history or defending all those it's ever been used against. WWII and the present conflict in Lebanon are two completely different situations; it requires some genuine willful mental contortions to imply or believe that criticism of the uses of airiel bombardment in the present context somehow is "in a sense a defense of the Axis Powers."

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 10:31:09 PM EST
    Andreas, that's just silly. Israel is trying to protect its existence. It's Hezbollah that wants to eradicate Israel. Whether Israel is right or wrong, their objectives have always been self-preservation. If the fundamentalist Islamic sects were willing to let them be, this war wouldn't be happening. Israel has a right to defend themselves and Lebanon has done zero to comply with the U.N. resolution to rid the country of foreign "militias" like Hezbollah. Let's hear Hezbollah say they are willing to co-exist with Israel before you start in on Israel. I'll agree Bush and the neo-cons are using Israel to further their agenda and the U.S. has no business intervening. I'll also agree that Bush & Co. playing the terrorist card is wrong, but Israel is not anti-Muslim, they are only trying to take out those who would destroy it.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 06:35:01 AM EST
    LWW - Well, Christian Brothers would be assumed of your retention abilities. German invented the word "blitzkreig" and you might want to do some research on the bombings of England, especially London. Japan bombed Peral Harbor, as well as numerous targets on China and SE Asia. So not only is your head in the wrong place, your facts are wrong. Jondee - You know what LWW was saying/doing as well as the rest of us. And brown people sneaking across the border? Crime is crime, Jondee, and illegal aliems are illegal aliens.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 07:24:07 AM EST
    Say what you want Jim, your latinophobia and islamophobia continue to speak between the lines.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Sailor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 09:35:49 AM EST
    I'll agree Bush and the neo-cons are using Israel to further their agenda and the U.S. has no business intervening.
    if we didn't give them money and arms they wouldn't last a week. We are furthering the instability in the region. israel has a problem with Lebanon; israel has a problem with syria; israel has a problem with saudi arabia; israel has a problem with iran. israel has a problem with iraq. Gee, what do all those things have in common? If the aim is to bring stability to the region getting rid of every hezbollah member will not work, getting rid of israel would.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by theologicus on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 12:00:40 PM EST
    ... they are only trying to take out those who would destroy it. I'm sorry TL, but this is sheer nonsense. I hope you still comsider me as your friend. But friends don't let friends defend war crimes. Phyllis Bennis cuts through the haze of propaganda:
    The Israeli war against Lebanon and Palestine, euphemistically depicted as "self-defense" against Hezbollah and Hamas, is simultaneously an Israeli war for domination, It must be stated unequivocally that this is a war against civilians - there is nothing "collateral" about it. And Israel is responsible for this war. Hezbollah's July 12 raid across the Israeli border may have violated the 1949 armistice agreement between the newly created state of Israel and Lebanon, but it was limited to a military target. The only Israelis killed or captured were soldiers. ... According to Human Rights Watch, "the targeting and capture of enemy soldiers is allowed under international humanitarian law." It was Israel's response, on the other hand, that escalated to a full-scale attack on civilians and civilian infrastructure starting with the bombing of the Beirut international airport. ... The Israeli attack stands in stark violation of the Geneva Conventions prohibitions against collective punishment, targeting civilians, destruction of civilian infrastructure and more. The attack was - and remains - a war crime. The distinction is important. The Hezbollah attack on the Israeli army post and the failed Israeli attempt to grab back the captured soldiers, constituted a border skirmish. Such cross-border clashes happen around the world on a daily basis; certainly the Israeli-Lebanon border itself has seen more than its share. But a border skirmish is not a war - it's a border skirmish. It only becomes a war if one or the other party wants it to escalate. In this case, there is no question that Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his government wanted a war. The San Francisco Chronicle and other mainstream media have highlighted the fact that Israel had had this strategic plan in place since at least 2004, perhaps having started it as early as 2000 when Israeli troops pulled out of Lebanon. Israel was waiting for an appropriate time - or an appropriate pretext - to launch it. This moment, this pretext, they deemed, was the time.


    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 01:32:59 PM EST
    ... they are only trying to take out those who would destroy it..
    I'm sorry TL, but this is sheer nonsense. I hope you still comsider me as your friend. But friends don't let friends defend war crimes.
    I have to agree with you theologicus. This war on civilians could have easily been avoided if not for the neocon grip on US mid-east policy and Israel's pavlovian dependence on the US as a moderating force. The heartstrings of many Americans and traditionally left leaning Jews in particular, are being manipulated by odd bedfellows: the Neocons and the Christian right. It is deeply ironic that Israel's biggest American supporter, the Christian Right, looks forward to the destruction of Israel and eternal damnation of all jews and everyone else who doesn't convert to christianity. If the road to hell is paved with good intentions it follows that here the road to heaven paved with evil intentions, by the ones cheering on all the destruction. Daniel Levy, a negotiator from the Oslo and Taba talks and the lead Israeli drafter of the Geneva Initiative puts it in clear terms:
    Finding themselves somewhat bogged down in the Iraqi quagmire, the neoconservatives are reveling in the latest crisis, displaying their customary hubris in re-seizing the initiative. The U.S. press and blogosphere is awash with neocon-inspired calls for indefinite shooting, no talking and extension of hostilities to Syria and Iran,with Gingrich calling this a third world war to "defend civilization." Disentangling Israeli interests from the rubble of neocon "creative destruction" in the Middle East has become an urgent challenge for Israeli policy-makers. An America that seeks to reshape the region through an unsophisticated mixture of bombs and ballots, devoid of local contextual understanding, alliance-building or redressing of grievances, ultimately undermines both itself and Israel. The sight this week of Secretary of State Rice homeward bound, unable to touch down in any Arab capital, should have a sobering effect in Washington and Jerusalem. [emphasis mine]
    Haaretz

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by glanton on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 02:36:38 PM EST
    And the answer is, he has a case of judophobia.
    Really gone off the deep end with that, aren't you Jim? Youre' gonna choke on that particular Talking Point if you don't spit it out. TL, you have said several times you aren't down with people calling each other racists on your site. But you're apparently cool with this guy developing a new penchant for throwing out the anti-Semite charge routinely. How does this enhance the discourse on your site, I wonder? BTW, everyone: I just discovered this, a pretty cool startup blog And these guys live in Texas? Will wonders never cease!

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 05:36:56 PM EST
    Glanton - If you had bothered to read Hitches post, you would know that "judophobia" is specifically not racist. Instead, it defines a phobia against the country of Israel.
    The first of these is what I call 'Judophobia'. I use this word to distinguish it from the expression 'anti-semitism',....... For Judophobia, in the form of anti-Israel prejudice, is very common among PC types.
    Link

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by jondee on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 06:03:45 PM EST
    Yes Jim, you and Hitch (who's has a history of being accused of "judophobia" himself), will call everyone who disagrees antisemitic without overtly calling them antisemitic. Kinda like saying coon instead of n*gger when it basically amounts to the same thing. Why do I think the closest you've ever been to actual Jews was an old girl friend who made you take her to see Fiddler On The Roof?

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by glanton on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 06:11:30 PM EST
    For Judophobia, in the form of anti-Israel prejudice, is very common among PC types.
    Why not call it Israeil-phobia and be done with it? This guy you keep citing is a moron, banking on the moronic notion that by charging critics of Israeli policy with racism, he is somehow contributing something of value to the conversation. The truth is, you or Hitch or whomever the hell else wants to can parrot your little neocon words as much as you like, its never going to count as articulating an argument.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by squeaky on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 06:18:51 PM EST
    He says conservatives should oppose the use of abusive terms such as what he calls the n-word" with just as much fervour as the left. They should not allow PC to have a monopoly of politeness in such matters.
    The notion that Peter Hitchen's cute neologism meant to annoy is OK because he claims to have manners is absurd. He must be close with his brother. The nuts grow in bunches kinda like the aspens.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Sailor on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 08:34:21 PM EST
    f you had bothered to read Hitches post, you would know that "judophobia" is specifically not racist
    yeah, leave it to ppj to trust in a idiot brit for his analysis, an idiot that doesn't believe in evolution . And if that isn't enough of a clue, he's even more wrongwing than his drunkard brother chris. Sheesh, next ppj will quote powerline ... oops, he already did that.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 09:17:32 PM EST
    et al - I can always tell when I have scored a point by the crying and moaning coming from you. Jondee writes:
    Why do I think the closest you've ever been to actual Jews was an old girl friend who made you take her to see Fiddler On The Roof?
    Because you don't know what you are talking about comes immediately to mind.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by John Mann on Sat Aug 05, 2006 at 09:21:08 PM EST
    Jim defined his favorite new word:
    "judophobia" is specifically not racist. Instead, it defines a phobia against the country of Israel.
    How can one have a phobia "against" something, Jim? A phobia is an irrational fear. For example, I am paraskavedekatriaphobic (friggatriskaidekaphobic); does this mean I have a fear "against" Friday the 13th? Of course not. I have an irrational fear "of" Friday the 13th. Your definition doesn't make sense, Jim. Judophobia, were such a word to exist (which it doesn't) would more accurately describe a fear of Jews, not, as you claim, a fear "against" the country of Israel. Since I don't have a fear of Jews or the country of Israel, I think you're quite out of line in suggesting that I do. Frankly, if I didn't know better, I might think you're accusing me (and others) of being racist. I think I've invented a better word for you: Zionismophobia. Don't you think that's a better word, Jim? It doesn't have a racist connotation, either.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by roger on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 04:57:43 AM EST
    Well, I read the Hitchens article. I dont know the man's history, never heard of him before, and I dont care for the term "Judophobia". People should be allowed to practice the martial art of their choice. Aside from that, the article points out some historical facts that should be non-controversial. Arab states were backers of nazi Germany. That's why many nazis went there after WWII. Arab states have never agreed to a comprehensive peace with Israel. Anti-semitism has long been acceptable to intellectuals. So, what exactly is the problem with his article? I hardly ever agree with Jim, but in this case, I think that he is right. There are a lot of racists who post at TL. Too bad.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 10:06:38 AM EST
    John Mann - Actually you need to argue with Peter Hitchens. I think his email address is in the article. Dark Avenger - Gee, sorry I don't respond to what I consider to be your more nonsensical comments, but you'll just have to get use to it. Roger - ;-)

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by squeaky on Sun Aug 06, 2006 at 10:26:50 AM EST
    John Mann - Actually you need to argue with Peter Hitchens. I think his email address is in the article.
    No ppj, you are the one that introduced the silly term to TL as a hijack. You are the one that has to justify Hitchens here since you brought him and his silly term up at TL. To ask us to debate with Hitchens is typical of your squirm and a red herring. You last ditch attempt to evade responsibility by diverting the argument away from your provocation is pathetic. Why do you think Hitchens and his neoligism are worthy of discussion? Do you need him to defend you here?

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:28:03 PM EST
    There are alot of racists who post at TL Tear that page out of your dictionary: The new definition of anti-semitism is any pointed criticism of the policies of the U.S and Israeli partnership. Outside of that criticism, have you seen any other examples at TL of this "racism" that you refer to Roger? One would think that you would have.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by roger on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 05:41:30 PM EST
    Jondee, Pay attention, there are a few that come out from time to time. Some of the immigration threads get interesting, and a few of the Israel threads get pretty borderline.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:05:19 PM EST
    Roger - Yes, but you were refering specifically to the, in your view, unbalanced criticism of Israel's part in the latest conflict weren't you? I might add that, as you're probobly already aware, a few Nazis came to the U.S, or to the U.S's side after the war: Von Braun, Gehlen and Barbie (rumored to be protected as an "asset") come immediatly to mind.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:20:21 PM EST
    Roger, can you offer some specific examples of what you consider "borderline" racist comments in the threads about Israel?

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by roger on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:28:48 PM EST
    Ernesto, You can parse all of those old threads yourself. It's not really all that interesting. Jondee, Many countries took in nazis after WWII. Many also turned away the "Ship of Fools" before the war. Look at the academic papers on why the US didnt bomb the rail lines to Aushwitz, even though they flew over daily. I believe that LWW accused his congressman of working for the Israeli government, and that his aides have Israeli accents. Does that sound reasonable to you? Or maybe a bit paranoid?

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 06:57:42 PM EST
    Roger, it is interesting to me because I want to know what you consider a borderline racist comment. Without a specific example, I am wondering if it isn't just a case of you seeing racism where there may not be any at all, i.e., inferring a hatred of jews from a comment that is critical of Israel.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:02:26 PM EST
    Roger - Im not sure I know what an Isaeli accent sounds like. Tevye? Obviously racism and anti-semitism continue to exist: it's one of the dark sides of prizing the irrational too highly. As a reputable ideology it's pretty much had it's day though. At least one would hope.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by roger on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:29:53 PM EST
    Jondee, I am not sure about the accent either. On one of the sunday shows, they had an Iaraeli envoy who sounded vaguely Australian. I was not the one who talked to this "congressional aide" though.

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by roger on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:45:49 PM EST
    Of course, no one here can match this

    Re: Friday News and Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by roger on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 07:49:03 PM EST