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NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitutional

by Last Night in Little Rock

The NSA's broad wiretapping program that sweeps into its purview non-terrorism suspects, including journalists, lawyers, and scholars, was declared unconstitutional by U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor of the Eastern District of Michigan. The opinion appears here. It was a resounding defeat for the Bush Administration.

CNN.com summarizes as follows:

The defendants "are permanently enjoined from directly or indirectly utilizing the Terrorist Surveillance Program (TSP) in any way, including, but not limited to, conducting warrantless wiretaps of telephone and Internet communications, in contravention of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and Title III," she wrote.

She further declared that the program "violates the separation of powers doctrine, the Administrative Procedures Act, the First and Fourth amendments to the United States Constitution, the FISA and Title III."

She went on to say that "The president of the United States ... has undisputedly violated the Fourth [Amendment] in failing to procure judicial orders." (bracketed material added)

The NYTimes.com article is here, the LATimes.com article is here, and the Detroit Free Press is here.

The Washington Post article is here, and also adds this quote from the opinion:

"It was never the intent of the framers to give the president such unfettered control, particularly where his actions blatantly disregard the parameters clearly enumerated in the Bill of Rights," she wrote. " . . . There are no hereditary Kings in America and no powers not created by the Constitution. So all 'inherent powers' must derive from that Constitution."

Judge Diggs was appointed by President Carter in 1979.

Perhaps not ironically, the U.S. Supreme Court's biggest national security search case was United States v. United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan (Keith), 407 U.S. 297 (1972). The government lost that case, too.

[cross-posted to www.fourthamendment.com]

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    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#1)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 11:27:43 AM EST
    Diggs Taylor went on to say that "The president of the United States ... has undisputedly violated the Fourth [Amendment] in failing to procure judicial orders." As far as I know, Warrantless domestic wiretapping is now both a 4th amendment violation and a felony.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 11:34:42 AM EST
    Diggs Taylor went on to say that "The president of the United States ... has undisputedly violated the Fourth [Amendment] in failing to procure judicial orders." As far as I know, Warrantless domestic wiretapping is now both a 4th amendment violation and a felony.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#3)
    by Punchy on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 11:55:33 AM EST
    She's made the decision...now who's going to enforce it? Honestly? What branch of gov't can go into a supersecret building with supersecret spies and unplug the machines? Oh yeah, that's right. The Executive. And I'm betting they're in a BIG hurry to do so...

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#4)
    by aw on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:20:32 PM EST
    now who's going to enforce it?
    Well maybe now that every government employee and contractor knows that it's illegal and they could be subject to prosecution, they will refuse to continue to break the law?

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#5)
    by aw on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:26:45 PM EST
    now who's going to enforce it?
    Well maybe now that every government employee and contractor knows that it's illegal and they could be subject to prosecution, they will refuse to continue to break the law?

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#6)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:31:27 PM EST
    In fine, this is the opinion the administration may well have (and should have) dreaded the most. It explicitly finds - as a matter of undiputed fact - that the President has violated the law and Constitution, and does it using only his own words. For the non-lawyers, a finding based upon undisputed fact means a lot, but first off it means that there is not any room left for any of the usual spin, dissembling, lying, clouding, dust-tossing or any of the other shenannigans Rover and his ilk are so prone to fling about. The facts comprising the violation are proven, established, judicial facts. There is no disputing them. So, if anyone from the administration comes along trying to shade or say otherwise, remind them the place to aver those other facts was in Court. They didn't; the Judge took the Preznit at his words. And, there's no changing or adding facts for the appeal. All that is left is applying those facts to the law. Here, the judge was careful, and applied long established and well-accepted precedent. She referred to a lot of that Republican favorite - the original intent of the Framers. (Now we get to see whether Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts can weasel out of their reverence for the Founders to better serve their Repug masters....) Important, too, is the repeated reminder that the President is a creature of the same Constitution he has been violating. As are the references to the regal despotism which informed and animated the Framers. This is a serious shot across the bow of the Administration (compare this post on SCOTUSblog re recess appointments of federal judges) and there is little doubt the federal judiciary (as a whole) is about fed up with this Administration's chicanery. This opinion is also clearly written by a savvy judge. She has not gone over the top in criticizing the Preznit, but has opened the avenues to others using her opinion to carry that out. By holding her fire, she has managed to avoid bias charges and such, so that she will be very hard to dislodge from this case. Smart move, that. Frankly, IMHO after this decision Congress MUST impeach and the Senate convict and remove, Bush. What has been proven, from his own mouth, is that there is no dispute that the President has deliberately, consciously, and continuously violated the laws and the Constitution he swore to uphold. Otherwise, Congress will have truly and, in a system based upon precedent forever, gelded itself. If I were advising any Member of Congress, impressing upon that Member the necessity of impeachment and removal, and the inability to avoid it, is the advice I would convey. So, The Unit has reduced this country to a game of chicken. How mature of him.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#7)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:32:51 PM EST
    In fine, this is the opinion the administration may well have (and should have) dreaded the most. It explicitly finds - as a matter of undiputed fact - that the President has violated the law and Constitution, and does it using only his own words. For the non-lawyers, a finding based upon undisputed fact means a lot, but first off it means that there is not any room left for any of the usual spin, dissembling, lying, clouding, dust-tossing or any of the other shenannigans Rover and his ilk are so prone to fling about. The facts comprising the violation are proven, established, judicial facts. There is no disputing them. So, if anyone from the administration comes along trying to shade or say otherwise, remind them the place to aver those other facts was in Court. They didn't; the Judge took the Preznit at his words. And, there's no changing or adding facts for the appeal. All that is left is applying those facts to the law. Here, the judge was careful, and applied long established and well-accepted precedent. She referred to a lot of that Republican favorite - the original intent of the Framers. (Now we get to see whether Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts can weasel out of their reverence for the Founders to better serve their Repug masters....) Important, too, is the repeated reminder that the President is a creature of the same Constitution he has been violating. As are the references to the regal despotism which informed and animated the Framers. This is a serious shot across the bow of the Administration (compare this post on SCOTUSblog re recess appointments of federal judges) and there is little doubt the federal judiciary (as a whole) is about fed up with this Administration's chicanery. This opinion is also clearly written by a savvy judge. She has not gone over the top in criticizing the Preznit, but has opened the avenues to others using her opinion to carry that out. By holding her fire, she has managed to avoid bias charges and such, so that she will be very hard to dislodge from this case. Smart move, that. Frankly, IMHO after this decision Congress MUST impeach and the Senate convict and remove, Bush. What has been proven, from his own mouth, is that there is no dispute that the President has deliberately, consciously, and continuously violated the laws and the Constitution he swore to uphold. Otherwise, Congress will have truly and, in a system based upon precedent forever, gelded itself. If I were advising any Member of Congress, impressing upon that Member the necessity of impeachment and removal, and the inability to avoid it, is the advice I would convey. So, The Unit has reduced this country to a game of chicken. How mature of him.

    Warrantless domestic wiretapping is now both a 4th amendment violation and a felony.
    I don't know the law on this real well, but I'd be very surprised if it didn't differentiate between the actions of individuals and the actions of the government. Warantless wiretapping by an individual is probably a felony, warrantless wiretapping by the government probably isn't. For government employees to be guilty of a crime for warrantless wiretapping wouldn't probably take pretty egregious conduct (you'd expect the law to treat an NSA tech following orders much differently than a private eye or hacker). If anyone knows more about this than I do, I won't take any offense at being corrected.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#9)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:36:01 PM EST
    Sorry for the doubbbble post - all those tubes on the internets seem to be getting jammed up a lot today, and I shoved and clicked more than I should have. As they said where I grew up: "If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#10)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:38:44 PM EST
    The finding is actually that Bush violated the 1st & 4th Amendments, FISA, and his oath of office to see that the law is faithfully executed. This is a complete refutation of the "unitary executive possessing plenary powers" as well. The ruling makes it plain that no powers are granted to the president other than those specified in the Constitution as the President is a creature of that very same Constitution. Also, by basing the ruling on Constitutional grounds, there is no way for Specter and Bush's Republican Guard can overcome this ruling by statute. They would have to pass Constitutional Amendments and have them ratified by 38 states to make any such program illegal. Fellow TLers, a great blow for democracy was struck today which clearly and succinctly describes how Bush has been violating and unjustly depriving We the People of our rights. I hope you're listening ppj. This has been a public service announcement.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#11)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:39:44 PM EST
    The finding is actually that Bush violated the 1st & 4th Amendments, FISA, and his oath of office to see that the law is faithfully executed. This is a complete refutation of the "unitary executive possessing plenary powers" as well. The ruling makes it plain that no powers are granted to the president other than those specified in the Constitution as the President is a creature of that very same Constitution. Also, by basing the ruling on Constitutional grounds, there is no way for Specter and Bush's Republican Guard can overcome this ruling by statute. They would have to pass Constitutional Amendments and have them ratified by 38 states to make any such program illegal. Fellow TLers, a great blow for democracy was struck today which clearly and succinctly describes how Bush has been violating and unjustly depriving We the People of our rights. I hope you're listening ppj. This has been a public service announcement.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#12)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:45:39 PM EST
    The finding is actually that Bush violated the 1st & 4th Amendments, FISA, and his oath of office to see that the law is faithfully executed. This is a complete refutation of the "unitary executive possessing plenary powers" as well. The ruling makes it plain that no powers are granted to the president other than those specified in the Constitution as the President is a creature of that very same Constitution, including the fact that, while he may be Commander-in-Chief of the military, he is NOT the C-in-C of the American public.. Also, by basing the ruling on Constitutional grounds, there is no way Specter and Bush's Republican Guard can overcome this ruling by statute. They would have to pass Constitutional Amendments and have them ratified by 38 states to make any such program legal. Fellow TLers, a great blow for democracy was struck today which clearly and succinctly describes how Bush has been violating and unjustly depriving We the People of our rights. I hope you're listening ppj. This has been a public service announcement. PS_something screwy is happening here, I hit preview to make proofreading easier and wound-up with my rough draft posted twice. THIS is its intended final form.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#13)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:47:55 PM EST
    Bill: I hope you're listening ppj. This has been a public service announcement. You forgot to give him the link. ;-)

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#14)
    by roy on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:49:38 PM EST
    Those of you who don't regularly read The Volokh Conspiracy would do well to pop over if you're interested in this issue. The legal hoodoo is addressed in detail.

    This decision came from the same court that issued the (Judge) Keith decision, which precipitated the Watergate break-in and brought down Nixon. Let's hope Judge Anna Diggs Taylor's decision helps topple the current wannabe dictator.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#16)
    by killer on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 12:56:22 PM EST
    There are reports that Frist is supporting the appeal. Jeralyn, will you please put up a post on that appeal when informatin becomes available?

    Also, by basing the ruling on Constitutional grounds, there is no way for Specter and Bush's Republican Guard can overcome this ruling by statute. They would have to pass Constitutional Amendments and have them ratified by 38 states to make any such program illegal.
    This case is definitely a victory, but maybe not quite the victory people think it is. It's not a big deal that the decision rests on undisputed fact, because facts have never been the issue here. The issues have always been legal ones - i.e. whether the wiretapping violates the law, not whether the wire tapping occured or to what extent. Winning at the district court level is great in that it gets the program stopped, but this decision will be appealed to the 7th Circuit. And if the government loses there, they'll try really hard to get it in front of the Supreme Court. Given that the district court's opinion deals solely with matters of law, the appelate courts aren't bound by it. They're totally free to apply the law differently. I guess my point is that this is a good first step, but I won't be surprised if it's only the first round of the fight.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sumner on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 01:15:50 PM EST
    With the Attorney General refuting the judges decision, and with his claiming there is a proper stay in place, he celebrated that the spying proudly goes forward even while being reviewed. In the meantime, what they need is a really big diversion. Any ideas what that will be?

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#19)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 01:19:08 PM EST
    Well, for once the guvmint is going to work fast - DoJ has decided to seek a stay of the decision and avers that the parties have agreed on this. Here's the problem. DoJ says:
    "In the ongoing conflict with al-Qaeda and its allies, the President has the primary duty under the Constitution to protect the American people. The Constitution gives the President the full authority necessary to carry out that solemn duty, and we believe the program is lawful and protects civil liberties." (my italics)
    My copy of the Constitution says nothing about "protect the American people" anywhere in the plain text of that document. Rather, the primary duty of the Preznit is "ensure that the laws are faithfully executed". Which duty, there is no disputing, he's violated. Similarly, the only solemnity imposed by the Constitution is the oath, as to which there is now no dispute he has violated, continuously, deliberately, and flagrantly. Whence this construction "duty ... to protect the American people"? My copy of Gibbon's "History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" informs me, saying:
    By declaring themselves protectors of the Roman people, Marius and Caesar had subverted the constitution of their country*. .... (Under Augustus and his successors) The masters of the Roman world surrounded their throne with darkness, concealed their irresistible strength, and humbly professed themselves the accountable ministers of the Senate, whose supreme decress they dictated and obeyed." (Penguin Classics ed., 2000, ch. III at 72-73)
    Sound familiar? (the second part describes Cheney's office and its relations with Specter and the Senate to a T). Of course, since Gibbon was published in several volumes beginning in 1776 and through the 1780s, and was an immediate best-seller, one can only assume the Founders and Framers were intimiately acquainted with it, and the structure they put into separation of powers was doubtless informed by it. Once one wades (actually, it's pretty fascinating) through the first seventy or eighty pages of this abridged edition, one finds the schemes and chicanery of Bushco to be pretty much indistinguishable from those of Caesar, Octavian/Augustus and their contemporaries 2000 or so years ago. Gibbon could be the Rethugs' playbook. Think about it. If I were the Judge, I'd deny the stay, if only to be a real b*ll-buster. - - - * Casear and his had done everything they did to "protect the Roman people".

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 01:22:52 PM EST
    Beautiful post, scribe!

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#21)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 01:41:07 PM EST
    Thanks Edger.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sumner on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 02:01:47 PM EST
    Gibbon's problem is that he was tremendously biased in that he never managed to escape his religious bent. Will Durant, however, in his Story of Civilization manages a far better objectivity. Durant tells us about: Emperor JUSTINIAN, (483-565 AD; reigned 527-566 AD), born PETRUS SABBATIUS to village peasants in what was eventually to become the former Yugoslavia. JUSTINIAN envisioned a scheme by which to unite with forces of Christianity, and consolidate his power. With the help of his two great generals, BELISARIUS and NARSES, Emperor JUSTINIAN spanned his empire across Africa, Spain, and Italy. He rebuilt the eastern capital at Constantinople. With a fertile imagination, he found his power in ideas. He located a talented lawyer, TRIBONIAN, (died 545), and slashed the multitude of laws and enactments to but one twentieth of their original bulk. He retained only the best of the legal ideas. These resulted in the Codex and the Digest. Together we get the Corpus Juris Civilis, remaining unsurpassed for thirteen hundred more years. His Pandect, his Compendium, held that justice consists of rendering every man his due. -------------------------------- But current surveillance is not simply to protect people. Much of intelligence work is farmed out to corporations. This provides a "cutout" to government against "blowback". It is said that "With freedom comes responsibility". Yet corporations have been made artificial "persons" in law. And when corporations kill someone, they do not go to jail. Intellectual property and proprietary information is easily captured this way for inside information toward investing and financial gain. Watergate didn't hold a candle to these programs for providing political intelligence towards adversaries, dissidents and activists. Several Ninth Circuit Court judges once commented that it was all they could do to keep up with the decisions of their fellow jurists, never mind the entire body-of-law. Yes our law needs simplifying. For example, I view almost every "blue law" as unconstitutional. A notion that massive spying is to protect everyone's freedom rather than to marginalize and control and keep the upper hand on people is more sugar coating of bad medicine. It serves the president's interest far more than it serves yours.

    Well finally...a speedbump on the road to fascism. But, like you all, I dread the thought of this coming before Scalito, Thomas et al. As infuriating as things are these days, we have been there before and survived. We survived the 1950s Cold War hysteria of McCarthy and the Hoover/Nixon counterculture paranoia. But that was only because there were people willing to stand up to the fearmongering power grabs going on. Where are those people now?? Where is Edward R. Murrow? Where is Judge John J. Sirica? Why do I have the feeling that the Democratic Party, specifically the Lieberman/DLC branch is part of a Vichy government of Bush collaborators? There can be no compromise on these issues. NOT ONE BIT. Because those that would purposefully violate the Constitution are not the kind to compromise with, nor are they interested in that. Our biggest enemies are the cowards that go along with these power grabs. I am not afraid of terrorists. I haven't forgotten my military training and if they show up I got something for them. In the meantime we need to fight these creeps who are in the same league as the terrorists, who have the same goals as the terrorists. People are slowly waking up to that fact. And if the Supreme Court of the U.S. sanctions this mess, then all bets are off.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#24)
    by Sailor on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 02:36:32 PM EST
    or any of the other shenannigans Rover and his ilk are so prone to fling about.
    9/11 take 2 coming soon to your area.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#25)
    by Dadler on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 03:07:42 PM EST
    Edger, Speaking of public service announcements, there's nothing better than the first eight words of KNOW YOUR RIGHTS by The Clash. God*amn I'm still depressed that Joe Strummer's dead.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#26)
    by scribe on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 04:01:51 PM EST
    Sumner: The point I was trying to make re Gibbon was basically twofold. 1. That the schemes and methodologies Bushco, Deadeye and all their folks are using are ancient, predictable, tried and true. 2. That the Founders and the Framers were aware of this sort of scheming and chicanery, and deliberately structured the Constitution to thwart those who would try to implement such schemes in the(ir) future. (Or, to paraphrase C.J. Marshall (I think) - this is a Constitution for the Ages, not just today) Re Gibbon's inability to escape his religiousity, the same could be said about his praise for hereditary monarchy. Still, given he was writing in the England of 1776, with a whack-job named George in charge and agents of his Crown bearing general warrants abroad in the land, Gibbon had to trim his sails to meet the current conditions, lest he wind up in the Tower. He had to praise something as a basis of comparison, and it was best to cheer the home team. As a history of how the Roman Republic devolved into "...an absolute monarchy disguised by the forms of a commonwealth"*, I think it is quite useful, telling, and probably can be used against Bushco to no small effect. - - - * which phrase immediately precedes the second half of my quote in my earlier comment.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#27)
    by Sydnie on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 04:22:56 PM EST
    Jack Cafferty said it loud and proud today. Check out the video! Windows Media Version Quicktime Version Must SEE clip!

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#28)
    by Sumner on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 05:26:37 PM EST
    Der Spiegel has several articles addressing German intelligence that is not focused (like the US is) on finance, personal behavior such as drugs and sex or the fashioning of guilt campaigns with the attendant sometimes 20-year-and-more sentences for such. Perhaps Jack Cafferty was not merely temporizing. But CNN has a past affinity though for WH VNRs. scribe, taken in context, your point is adroit. The Durant characterization of Emperor Justinian, who was perhaps as rabid a Christian as Bush pretends, was also bent on expansion of Christendom. The girl Justinian married was a circus performer that would have as many as 20 different lovers a night. He may have pushed Christianity for power's sake and/or wanted to clean up their image. Gibbon claimed that "suspension" was the worst evil. And from John Milton's Paradise Lost, Book 2, @ line 580:
    ...Farr off from these a slow and silent stream, Lethe the River of Oblivion roules Her watrie Labyrinth, whereof who drinks, Forthwith his former state and being forgets, Forgets both joy and grief, pleasure and pain. ...At certain revolutions all the damn'd Are brought: and feel by turns the bitter change Of fierce extreams, extreams by change more fierce...
    I am heartened by the number of people here that make their stand, despite knowing that terrible consequences may lay ahead because that is what it means to live up to your own values.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 05:55:20 PM EST
    No, it is not. What you have is one district judge, selected by the ACLU after "judge shopping." This will be overturned. Link

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#30)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 07:15:49 PM EST
    Take it to the SCOTUS and let them earn their pay from the fascists who put them there. Save us all some time.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 08:09:23 PM EST
    So ppj relies on some guy named 'John' (perhaps a customer for jeff gannon?) at powerlineblog who admits he hasn't read the opinion but says it doesn't follow precedent. And ppj has his knickers all in a twist bloviating somehow the ACLU was able to judge shop based on some opinion piece by a john on powerlineblog who hadn't read the opinion. It is to laugh.

    Also, by basing the ruling on Constitutional grounds, there is no way Specter and Bush's Republican Guard can overcome this ruling by statute. They would have to pass Constitutional Amendments and have them ratified by 38 states to make any such program legal.
    I was actually wondering about this. They seemed to be acting as if Congress could set up some kind of work around.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#34)
    by Repack Rider on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 11:07:53 PM EST
    They seemed to be acting as if Congress could set up some kind of work around.
    Yeah, I keep seeing stuff about how they need to modify the FISA, but FISA puts a barely Constitutional cover on the wiretap by allowing three days to figure out a reason to have issued the warrant had there been enough time. Three days to make up excuses for a tap, and that still wasn't enough, because the leads were not developed by investigation, but by electronic snooping on a vast scale, and conversations of interest were sorted out from ALL conversations on the bases of key indicators identified by high-speed computers, assisted by a tap into all the big trunk lines with the cooperation of the telcom companies. Unable to explain why they had selected specific conversations out of billions, even retroactively, the Bush administration did the only thing it could do. They lied, they violated federal law and the Constitution, they violated every oath they had ever sworn to as public officers, and they did a lot of stupid things too.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#35)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Aug 17, 2006 at 11:29:06 PM EST
    pneumatikon -- the reason for the statement about having to amend the constitution is that a statute that has been declared uncon. can be changed by the legislature and thus correct a merely flawed statute in the same way all laws are made, passed by both the House and Senate, and then signed into law by the prez. However, if the acts ruled upon violate constitutional provisions they simply cannot be modified to comport with the constitution, for no matter how you frame a statute it cannot overcome or supersede the rights violated by the acts of the offending party. Hence the requirement to amend the constitution to permit those acts, which requires a super majority of votes cast by both bodies, the prez signs, and subsequently the amendment must be ratified by 38 states. Since the judge ruled the actions of the government violated the 1st and 4th Amendments, it would be necessary to amend the constitution to permit the conduct, as it supersedes any statute. I hope I am making this clearer for you and not inadvertently making things worse. Peace ;-)

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 08:48:36 AM EST
    Dark Avenger, Sailor - Neither one of you read the link, just made an uninformed snarky comment. No problem. It's what you do. So two points: 1. Powerline won't be involved in the appeals process so what "John" hadn't read is of no consquence, and never will be. He is, however, a lawyer so I believe he knows more about the issue than either of you. 2. My comment was about judge shopping and I provided a link, which you evidently didn't read. Let me help you.
    One of the serious weaknesses of our federal judicial system is that in many cases, plaintiffs can forum-shop for a favorable district or judge. Here, the ACLU, the plaintiff in the case, could have brought the case anywhere in the United States. The ACLU naturally avoided the circuits that had already upheld warrantless surveillance as an executive power; the Sixth Circuit, which encompasses Michigan, has not ruled on the issue, to my knowledge. The ACLU was able to get its case before Judge Taylor, a 1979 Jimmy Carter appointee who was described by the Detroit Free Press as "a liberal with Democratic roots."
    I, like you, am not a lawyer, but I fail to see what is illegal, or wrong, with a program that listens into the telephone calls/data transfers between an OUTSIDE US source thought or known to be a terrorist, and an INSIDE the US person. Or, telephone calls/data transfers between INSIDE US source to an OUTSIDE US source thought/known to be a terrorist. The Fourth amendment speaks to "unreasonable searches and seizures." I see nothing unreasonable in the activities I described above. In fact, failure to use all resources to protect the citizens seems to directly violate the Preamble The Judge also claimns that the First Amendment is violated. The First Amendment says:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances
    I can see nothing in the activities I described that violate anything in the First, unless she is claiming that by listening in on the calls, now that the NYT has told the terrorists about them, that the government's listening is having a chilling effect on the content of the conversation. Surely to God she is not suggesting that terrorist have a right to plot and plan in privacy. But I can see nothing else. Interestingly enough this judge writes about there being "no kings in America.." While that is true, I would note that the person writing was appointed for life with almost no way for the citizens to dismiss her. That her opinions, even those that harm the country, must be obeyed until reviewed and reversed, and that she must agree to any stay of her actions. Few Kings have ever had such actual power. There is no longer any doubt that we need to review the federal court system. Judges should not be appointed for life. The Senate, with its six (6) year term, slows the rate of change and provide extended time for society to deliberate in cooler atmospheres. Judges, with their life terms do much the same. But 50 years is too long and should be changed to 15 with no second term allowed. What we have here is a Jimmy Carter Judge, twenty eight years later still doing the damage that Jimmy Carter started when he failed to respond to the attack and siezure of our embassy in Iran. She is also is violating the constitution herself by preventing the executive from taking prefectly reeasonable steps to: "insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare,"

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#37)
    by Sailor on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 09:11:02 AM EST
    Neither one of you read the link
    uhh, how could I have quoted from the link if I hadn't (took a deep breath, held my nose) and read the link?
    My comment was about judge shopping and I provided a link
    which we read and found out it was just an opinion piece by another rethuglican john. You want credibility, link to facts. In the mean time, since your logic skills obviously can't cope with something as simple as "they quoted from the link they must hvae read the link' in the future, talk to the hand. et al, ya know how rethugs are always claiming how uncivil the left is? Here's the right's reaction to the judge's ruling:
    Ok, now I get it, after seeing the pic: liberal black female, couldn't resist a chance to "get" Bush. The verdict was a foregone conclusion with this judge; judge shopping, indeed. Oh boy; a "two-fer" (two credits for placing a double-minority in a position of power....one for the "female", and one for the "black"...)
    This scumbag is told what to do by her party masters, and so she did what they told her to do..
    Wonder if that colorful constituency up there in Detroit had any effect on her?
    Judge Taylor, please put on your burqa.
    This traitor should be taken out back and SHOT. Period. Not a joke, not sarcasm. I'm tired of this terrorist-allied judicial legislators.


    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 09:15:38 AM EST
    Notice that this person:
    This traitor should be taken out back and SHOT. Period. Not a joke, not sarcasm. I'm tired of this terrorist-allied judicial legislators.
    seems to have just committed a federal crime. One that if it had been been uttered by a muslim would probably result in arrest.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#39)
    by roy on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 09:15:56 AM EST
    Jim demonstrates a major shortcoming of Taylor's decision: it gives Bush boosters a handfull of easy targets. Something to shoot down, then claim that they've won the argument. I don't know what impact that has on the appeal, but it leads to pointless exchanges in web forums. Taylor underplays, and Jim skips over, the major issue: FISA bans wiretaps like this when conducted by the Executive branch, and the AUMF is not permission to ignore FISA.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#40)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 09:17:03 AM EST
    Coincidentally, the same rationale utilized by just about every tyrant and dictator in history. Btw, Carter may not have "responded" but Casey, Bush Sr., North & Co sure as hell did. Now those guys were tough-on-terror: who else would think of killing 'em with kindness by selling them WMDs?

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#42)
    by scribe on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 09:51:27 AM EST
    JimakaPPJ: First, thanks for the offered help on my earlier modem problem. I had already tried what you (and tech support) suggested, but it was a nice gesture for which I am grateful (even if the rest of this post seems otherwise). The internets problem seems to have dissipated of its own accord, perhaps not coincidently about the same time Judge Diggs Taylor issued her decision. I've often suspected the NSA or someone like them* of futzing with the internets and jamming extra stuff into those tubes so people can't read stuff the Rethugs don't want them to read. Which brings me to the next issue: what took you so long to get on board? Are you OK? Torture Boy Abu Gonzo had his notice of appeal filed before the photocopier heat dissipated from his copy of the opinion, and Snowjob Tony was barking partisan bullcrap even before that. Even Rush got a couple not-so-crypto-racist barbs into his show yesterday. Worked up a good sneer too, I heard. But, you took 18 hours or so. What happened? I hope the internets tubes didn't plug up; I guessed that the actual enforcement of the Rule of Law, as written, with no Scalia/Thomas/Roberts/Alito sophistry** included sent you and folks holding similar opinions into a fit of vapor lock. At least until Rover and Snowjob got their heads clear. As to the vapors, I've always been fond of a good (quality) beer as a home remedy - one (enjoyed slowly) should suffice. I'd recommend something German or Czech, but if you want to support the cause, you could always buy a Coors/Molson product.... - - - *N.B. This references The Firesign Theatre's Waiting for the Electrician or Someone Like Him, something from the days when there were things called "comedy albums". ** Nice jab she put in her opinion, referring to the Unitary Executive theory as emanating from the penumbras of Article II, before rejecting it outright. For the less-than-legally-inclined, that's a great, subtle Griswold v. Connecticut/Poe v. Ullman/Doe v. Bolton/Roe v. Wade backhanded swipe at the Rethugs. They've made hay over the last 40 years or so carping about judicial activists finding a right to privacy in the emanations and penumbras of Amendments 1, 4, 5, 9 and 14. Time for a little back, no?

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#43)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 05:42:47 PM EST
    PPJ: The Fourth amendment speaks to "unreasonable searches and seizures." I see nothing unreasonable in the activities I described above. The Amendment defines "unreasonable" conveniently for you in the same f*cking sentence. "...[N]o warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. One sentence. Tough legal sledding there, PPJ.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#44)
    by jondee on Fri Aug 18, 2006 at 07:36:31 PM EST
    Only the left, in another thinly concealed attempt at obfuscation, would demand that the entire Fourth Amendment be quoted verbatim. What the Amendment speaks to is generally good enough for those who truely love their country. And support the troops.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 19, 2006 at 07:18:18 AM EST
    Repack - Unfortunate for you, certain searches are legal without a warrant.
    The decision in United States v. Kelly Gould, No. 0230629cr0, was made March 24 by the New Orleans-based 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.
    Link
    Leaders in law enforcement say it will keep officers safe, but others argue it's a privilege that could be abused.


    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 19, 2006 at 08:03:01 AM EST
    Sailor - I have noted many times that the Far Left and the Far Right have many of the same traits. But I note that uou didn't provide us a link showing the sources of the quotes you use with such glee. You do have actual sources, don't you? Or would you be funning us?

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#48)
    by Repack Rider on Sat Aug 19, 2006 at 08:12:28 AM EST
    PPJ: certain searches are legal without a warrant. Unfortunately for you, none of those "certain" legal warrantless searches are wiretaps or electronic interceptions. Jim, your inability to organize and analyze information is your greatest failing. I'm sure you are an expert at watering the lawn.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 19, 2006 at 08:43:21 AM EST
    RePack - I gave you an example that says that "saftey" must be considered in the case of searches. Now, in case you have missed it, the discussion on going is about searches that directly affect our safety. Now, since you seem to want to continually insult, I will close by saying that your ignoring what the Fourth Amendment says shows that you are practicing a type of wilful ignorance that was first brought to the modern world's attention by another ignorant politican named Chamberlain. He only helped enabling a war that cost millions and millions of lives. BTW -
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    And too bad for you that you don't recognize that "unreasonable" is a qualifier for the remainder of the sentence. It is, you know, a single sentence.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 19, 2006 at 08:46:53 AM EST
    Dark Avenger - What either of us thinks about the ruling is mox nix. The appeals process is on going.

    Re: NSA's Broad Wiretapping Program Unconstitution (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Aug 19, 2006 at 09:11:12 AM EST
    Scribe - Glad to know your internet problems have gone away. Anything that delays your learned comments is of deep concern to me. ;-) Besides, nothing is too good for my friends. Of course the question is....Are you... ;-) If the problem has gone away, then someone fixed it. My guess is the service provider. You write:
    I've often suspected the NSA or someone like them* of futzing with the internets and jamming extra stuff into those tubes so people can't read stuff the Rethugs don't want them to read.
    As much as it pains me to debate anything with people with that level of paranoia... wait... That would eliminate 70% of the commentators on the Far Left... Now, why I have taken so long? Well, since we don't have an employment contract... Actually yesterday I was busy preparing the Palatial Retirement Compound, catfish farm and BBQ stand (fresh vegetables on Wednesday) for some major additions and repairs. As for the Far Left Wing Judge's decision, you may need to consider that it has been immediately appealed. I believe that your glee will morph into the deepest gloom and you will need something besides beer to relieve your pain. In the meantime the Far Left and Demos had best hope that the terrorists don't have a successful attack on the country or both groups will be exposed as playing politics with peoples lives and suffer the consequences. Dark Avenger - Didn't know you were a fan of George Will. Or are you just cheery picking some things from a supposedly conservative? Me? As a social liberal I didn't pay much attention to his musings in the past, so his present ones demonstrate only that he feels that he is losing his place on the Washington A list. As for his comment re FISA and 1978, I would say that 99.9999999999999% of the world never knew when it was signed into law. I would further posit that the terrorists can't believe that we would be stupid enough to stop using our technology as weapons. Now you quote:
    Passing the Patriot act alerted them what we were going to do or not do.
    Let me quote your Dear Leader:
    "We killed the Patriot Act," boasted Minority Leader Harry Reid, Nevada Democrat, to cheers from a crowd at a political rally after the vote.
    A proud moment in the history of the Democratic Party and their owners, the Far Left. Link

    Thanks to Justice Diggsy Taylor, the important first step has been completed which will now allow the appeals process to proceed leading to a reversal of her misguided (of course it was not a politically motivated) decision. The reversal on appeal will simply reaffirm what our Founding Fathers expected we would do in times of war. - protect and defend ourselves from the enemy - even from those among us!