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Monday Open Thread

By Jeralyn, Section Blog Related
Posted on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 05:23:12 AM EST
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Your turn. I'm sure there are other things beside John Mark Karr and the Jonbenet murder case you want to talk about. Here's a place.

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    Monday Open Thread | 141 comments (141 topical)
    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 01:25:54 AM EST
    Geez, i thought the US was the biggest hypocrite on the planet. Looks like we've got some stiff competition: "It became clear that the legitimacy of a recognized international border offers Israel no protection against terrorism," prominent commentator Aluf Benn wrote last week in Haaretz.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 03:39:49 AM EST
    Uncomfortable Truths about Israel by Larry C Johnson

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 06:07:51 AM EST
    Can you guys tell me a group/country that is anti-US and/or Israel that you are against?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 06:23:34 AM EST
    Jim, Al Qaeda. Ever heard of them? Go back to bed. We actually have two hostile groups to deal with. One is the above mentioned group of religious fanatics, (still?) based in the mountains of Afghanistan, nnd apparently quite active. The other group is much closer to home.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 06:28:38 AM EST
    The Hizbullah aid and recovery effort is so successful that some wags suggest that Nasrallah be hired to take over from FEMA in the event the U.S. is hit with another storm like Katrina. Is this the type of unbiased and intellectual commentary we can expect from your links soc? Wow. That statement alone disqualifies this speaker of truths.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:08:05 AM EST
    Sounds tongue in cheek to me Slado...but regardless, it's sad but true. Hizbollah delievered social services more efficiently in the wake of the recent bombing than the US govt. did in the wake of Katrina...that's just fact. That's an indictment of the US and LA govt., not praise for Hizbollah. I mean, what do they have, like 1/1000th our resources?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Punchy on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:09:46 AM EST
    I'm sure there are other things beside John Mark Karr and the Jonbenet murder case you want to talk about.
    JM, you site is quickly turning into the "Entertainment Tonite" of blogs. Honestly, many of us (as evidenced from the dearth of comments) absolutely don't care about a 10-year old murder case. Please don't become the National Enquirer of lefty blogs!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:11:50 AM EST
    yeah Slado as if you would have paid any attention to it anyway. note his use of the word wag indicating a humerous intent. ppj like Slado does not deal with the issues, just his usual innuedo and slander. Which reminds me Roger should be along soon. I think that it is very interesting that criticism of Israel's governement is public and tolerated in Israel but not in the US where criticizing Israel gets you labeled many different things.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Beck on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:35:42 AM EST
    I think that it is very interesting that criticism of Israel's governement is public and tolerated in Israel but not in the US where criticizing Israel gets you labeled many different things.
    Is it public and tolerated to criticize the Hamas government in Gaza or to criticize Hezbollah in Lebanon or to criticize the Syrian government in Syria or the Iranian government in Iran? Do you get a label (other than the one on your tombstone)?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:42:37 AM EST
    Soccerdad, Hezzbolah's aim is to "Wipe Israel off the face of the earth". That's what is missing from arguments pro/anti Israel: Context. So, Iran resupplying Hezzbolah (which evidently has become a country and government separate of Lebanon and not a terrorist group)is not defensive but has to be seen as offensive since if they would recognize Israel's right to exist and then negotiate boundaries (like Jordan and Egypt) then this would become a minor issue instead of continuous war. On the other hand, the U.S. resupplying Israel is mainly defensive in nature since a terrorist group (since Lebanon is still a country) wants to "Wipe Israel off the face of the earth". All the other legit issues concerning water rights, right of return, etc...can only be negotiated with those who don't wish to kill you. And for all of those who practice moral relativism - Notice how Israel coexists with Arab states who recognize their right to exist as well as the 20% of their parliament who are Arab Muslims - As opposed to the large and flourishing Jewish populations in Arab countries.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:51:13 AM EST
    On the other hand, the U.S. resupplying Israel is mainly defensive in nature
    yes of course completely destroying a country where 1/3 of casualities are children, bombing infrastructure is all defensive. Right I got a bridge to sell you. Likudnicks want Palestine and Lebanon wiped off the face of the map. Israel taking its cure from the US has steadfastly refused to negotiate anything over the last 6 years and instead has engaged in unilateral policies that have only made things worse. Finally you need to brush up on your neocon talking points since you dont seem to know the difference between "moral relativism" and "moral equivalence" approach to slandering your opposition.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 08:21:07 AM EST
    SD, Well, here I am. I've stopped commenting on TL, mainly because I am sick of your sanctimonious BS. Enjoy your echo chamber, you've earned it.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 08:23:30 AM EST
    Che - Focus on al-Qaeada. The Religious Right hasn't hijacked any airplanes. BTW - Keep repeating the above. It will help your awareness of who the enemy really is. SD - Guess you just want Israel to give and march into the ovens... Maybe Germany has a few surplus ones left over. You write:
    I think that it is very interesting that criticism of Israel's governement is public and tolerated in Israel but not in the US where criticizing Israel gets you labeled many different things.
    You are tolerated and can say what you please. So can those who oppose you. You know. Free Speech. For Both Sides. Bocca Jeff writes:
    Notice how Israel coexists with Arab states who recognize their right to exist as well as the 20% of their parliament who are Arab Muslims
    Would you please quit bringing up such facts? Don't you know Israel has been setting a trap for all those countries for years and years? Now... where did I lay my tin hat... SD - You continue to fail to understand this simple and very important point. Hezbollah attacked first. They went across the border, killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped two. If Hezbollah had not attacked, Israel would not have responded. And guess what. NO ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN KILLED. You know, your hatred of Israel because it is a friend of the US is so obvious you might as well paint on your forehead.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 08:34:45 AM EST
    Anyone who is against the war on drugs, and anti-terrorist might want to check out ynet (they wont allow links). It seems that Israel has recovered very high-tech night vision gear, made in the UK, from Hezbollah. It seems that we give this stuff to Iran for the WOD, and they give it to Hezbollah to fight Israel. Strange bedfellows

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 08:47:33 AM EST
    ppj says
    SD - Guess you just want Israel to give and march into the ovens... Maybe Germany has a few surplus ones left over.
    as usual he has nothing so we get that kind of nonsense. repeating yet another wingnut talking point
    Hezbollah attacked first. They went across the border, killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped two.
    its been well documented and links have been given that there were multiple cross border incidents by both sides. Its also been clearly established that Israel was looking for an excuse Even if one accepts the "attack" meme. It hardly warrented such a response. And how is it that israel is supposed to be allowed to perform extrajudical assassinations and kidnappings without suffering any reprisals? and of course what post of ppj would be complete without the usual slander and character assassination But what do you expect from someone who just wants to repeat an nauseum his talking points.
    You know, your hatred of Israel because it is a friend of the US is so obvious you might as well paint on your forehead
    I dont hate Israel but i have little or no respect for its leaders who insist on stupid self-defeating policies.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:03:50 AM EST
    Jim, The Religious Right hasn't hijacked any airplanes. Well we use planes to kill innocent people also Jim. Many thousands more than your fear mongering example. If Hezbollah had not attacked, Israel would not have responded. Resorting to bold now? That excuse for Israel's invasion was discredited weeks ago. We all know Bushco wanted to cripple Hezbollah. Israel was glad to oblige, especially for 2.5 billion per year in what Bocajeff calls "defensive weapons" Also Bocajeff writes, Hezzbolah's aim is to "Wipe Israel off the face of the earth". That's what is missing from arguments pro/anti Israel: Context. Is that a quote of a guy named Hezbollah? I thought that was Iran's president. Oh well, they're all the same anyway, right? Either way the statement does not reflect the majority view of the arab world any more than Pat Robertson represents the majority viewpoint of the western world. But it IS a convenient argument for supporters of continued violence instead of face to face talks. As one astute blogger recently wrote, your argument may be watertight, but you are still sailing in the wrong direction.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:07:47 AM EST
    Sorry, that would be ynetnews.com. For those who would like some facts with their diatribes

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:13:38 AM EST
    Also, Australia is refusing to send peacekeepers to Lebanon as long as Hezbolla is allowed to keep their weapons.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:19:10 AM EST
    Bradley Burston in Haaretz writes:
    It is too convenient for many of us, rightists here and abroad, to dismiss the Arabs as terrorists and terrorist sympathizers. It is too convenient for many of us to decide that nothing changes, that they will all hate us until we are dead and/or gone. The challenge now is to find the strength to believe that we, in fact, have a future with the people who live across the line. The challenge we face is to respect our enemies enough to know how to hang onto what is ours. To be strong enough to fight them when they come to kill us. But to be strong enough, as well, to remain open to those who want to find a way to live and let us live as well. In the end, the Lebanese people no more want a Hezbollah state than we want a Kahane state. The Lebanese people are not terrorists. The label terrorist is much too simple. We love to use it, but it can blind us to the complexities of reality, and the fact that things, and even those we label terrorists, can change over time. Think, for one brief moment, about Menachem Begin.
    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:20:01 AM EST
    Also, Australia is refusing to send peacekeepers to Lebanon as long as Hezbolla is allowed to keep their weapons. That's no surprise. Who else?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:24:16 AM EST
    Che writes:
    Resorting to bold now? That excuse for Israel's invasion was discredited weeks ago
    You know, even for you that's a funny one. Let me see. Hezbollah forces invaded Israel, attacked a military installation, killed 8 soldiers, kidnapped 2.... and Israel's response is discredited?? You know, that is just plain dumb. What did that General say to the press ? "You guys are stuck on stupid." You write:
    Either way the statement does not reflect the majority view of the arab world
    Then why don't we see that arab world refuting the statement? How about some proof with your claims?? SD - All you do is re-quote Juan Cole. Got any original stuff?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:27:20 AM EST
    All thr Religious Right has attempted to hijack is America. 9/11 And The Sport of God:
    Their mission was to invade our psyche; get inside our heads - deprive us of trust, faith, and peace of mind: keep us from ever again believing in a safe, just, and peaceful world, and from working to bring that world to pass. The writer Terry Tempest Williams has said "the human heart is the first home of democracy." Fill that heart with fear and people will give up the risks of democracy for the assurances of security; fill that heart with fear and you can shake the house to its foundations.
    ...
    According to press reports, the leader of the movement - the senior pastor of a large church in suburban Columbus - casts the 2006 elections as an apocalyptic clash between "the forces of righteousness and the hordes of hell." The fear and loathing in his message is palpable: He denounces public schools that won't teach creationism, require teachers to read the Bible in class, or allow children to pray. He rails against the "secular jihadists" who have "hijacked" America and prevent school kids from learning that Hitler was "an avid evolutionist." He links abortion to children who murder their parents. He blasts the "pagan left" for trying to redefine marriage. He declares that "homosexual rights" will bring "a flood of demonic oppression."
    ...
    As I look back on the conflicts and clamor of our boisterous past, one lesson about democracy stands above all others: Bullies - political bullies, economic bullies and religious bullies - cannot be appeased; they have to be opposed with a stubbornness to match their own.


    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:28:49 AM EST
    Che, Germany (Terrified of shooting Jews), France (essentially), The Netherlands (tied up in Afghanistan-the real war)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:29:19 AM EST
    SD - You quote Bradley Burston. He also wrote:
    Death to Yuppiestan, or, Nasrallah was right
    Think maybe he has an agenda??

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:29:25 AM EST
    You could jump around a little and quote Counterpunch, Chomsky, Finkelstein etc, the way Jim links to Powerline, FrontPage and whoever they link to..All that original stuff.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:31:14 AM EST
    Hezbollah forces did not invade Israel. Nice propaganda attempt. From Wikepedia: The term usually connotes a strategic endeavor of substantial magnitude; because the goals of an invasion are usually large-scale and long-term, large forces are needed to hold territory and protect the interests of the invading entity. Smaller and lighter tactical infiltrations are not generally considered invasions, being more often classified as skirmishes, sorties, targeted killings, assassinations or reconnaissance in force. Your response to my last comment was rather hysterical. Dumb and stupid? There goes the neighborhood.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:31:34 AM EST
    edger, Did you see "30 days" last week? An atheist goes to live with a fundi family. The family was nice, but the preacher (in the scene where they went to mega-church) was scary as it gets

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:33:41 AM EST
    Then why don't we see that arab world refuting the statement?
    Why should they refute it given the recent fiascos in Iraq and lebanon. Everything the US and Israel have done in the last 3 years plays right into the hands of the extremists. My advice would be: "stop proving the extremists right"
    SD - All you do is re-quote Juan Cole
    another baseless claim. I'm waiting for the wingnuts to answer this: And how is it that israel is supposed to be allowed to perform extrajudical assassinations and kidnappings without suffering any reprisals? But PPJ and the the rest of the wrongwingers expect that the US and/or Israel should be able to do anything it wants to anybody it wants any time it wants and there should be no consequences.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:38:51 AM EST
    Roger, Germany (Terrified of shooting Jews), France (essentially), The Netherlands (tied up in Afghanistan-the real war) I can certainly understand Germany's reasoning. Don't you? France has been a major player in forming the ceasefire resolution so they obviously do not take Australia's stand. Ditto the netherlands. I don't think they would stay out over that issue. Australia is the exception, not the rule.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:40:31 AM EST
    Since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, there have been hundreds of violations of the "blue line" between the two countries. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on an almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006. These incursions "caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas". On some occasions, Hizbullah tried to shoot them down with anti-aircraft guns.
    snip
    On May 26 this year, two officials of Islamic Jihad - Nidal and Mahmoud Majzoub - were killed by a car bomb in the Lebanese city of Sidon. This was widely assumed in Lebanon and Israel to be the work of Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency. In June, a man named Mahmoud Rafeh confessed to the killings and admitted that he had been working for Mossad since 1994
    snip
    But there is no serious debate about why the two soldiers were captured: Hizbullah was seeking to exchange them for the 15 prisoners of war taken by the Israelis during the occupation of Lebanon and (in breach of article 118 of the third Geneva convention) never released. It seems clear that if Israel had handed over the prisoners, it would - without the spillage of any more blood - have retrieved its men and reduced the likelihood of further kidnappings
    link

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:40:43 AM EST
    Burston also says: "It (Hezbollah) is the world's best-armed and most dangerous NGO, a relief agency that does everything it can to kill maximum numbers of innocents accross the border. It is the Corleone model of humanitarian aid work, winning gratitude and fealty with family packs of $12,000 in freshly wrapped currency. It is our enemy. We don't know how to fight it. Not yet." It is a good article. Read the whole thing

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:43:32 AM EST
    Roger, I for one look forward to your comments and hope to see them continue. I tuned out SD more than a year ago, would rather read Jim twisting facts to his liking and argue back with my twisted facts. At least Jim and I understand each other through our disgust for one another's opinions. Same goes for SUO, Patrick, Dick Aubrey (where has he been?). Arguments from them generally are well intentioned and passionate without all the hyperbole. On the left side, I really enjoy Peaches and the cut of his jib. I can rarely find an issue where I disagree with Kdog and when we are at odds we generally agree on the core of the matter. There is a certain kinship here that I appreciate even if it is anonymous and some of the relationships started poorly. I believe I insulted PPJ and Patrick on a daily basis for a while and now I look forward to most of what they are saying even if it is to just get my blood pressure up. Roger, skip him and keep posting, some of us here look forward to it.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:43:59 AM EST
    the wrongwingers expect that the US and/or Israel should be able to do anything it wants to anybody it wants any time it wants and there should be no consequences. They would rather people had no sense or knowledge of history: "Ancient History": U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly Of Intervention Well... We Were Not Born Yesterday.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:44:42 AM EST
    Che, I dont blame any of those countries for their concerns. BTW- I gave the reasons that they have stated.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:47:01 AM EST
    Roger - If the rhetoric leveled at Muslims (not just extremists), and tolerated by "the mainstream", including this site, had been leveled at Jews, you would have had several strokes by now. To say that it's "hatred" when directed at one group but not the other, is to say one group is human but not the other: an essential, tried and true, war-time propaganda tactic.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:50:05 AM EST
    J- Thank you. We all hope that we are getting through to someone out there. BTW- I agree with you as to other posters. You should have seen me flame Jim and Patrick when they first came here, now, I kinda feel like a relative. We may disagree..... The main thing that bugs me about some of the lefties here, is that you disagree on ONE issue.....

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:51:09 AM EST
    Roger, Australia's rejection IS worth noting. It is worth noting because they are pandering to the neocons. They were gung-ho on OUR war (how many Australians have died in Iraq?) so they have little or no credibility IMHO.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:52:27 AM EST
    Please stick around Rog...I look forward to reading your take on things as well. If someone gets your goat...just ignore.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:54:44 AM EST
    Robert Greenwald's latest film, IRAQ FOR SALE, is coming out soon. Check out the trailer.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:55:27 AM EST
    The main thing that bugs me about some of the lefties here, is that you disagree on ONE issue..... No we don't. We all want peace. We all want a Jewish state. We all want a Palestinian state (the lefties, I mean). The detractors advocate the persistence of the occupied territories.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:55:43 AM EST
    Jondee, The only one who "gets my goat" here is LWW. SD bugs me because he is a smart guy, and IMHO, should hold himself higher.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:58:05 AM EST
    Roger, You're beautiful and we love you.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 09:59:26 AM EST
    ppj writes
    SD - You quote Bradley Burston. He also wrote: Death to Yuppiestan, or, Nasrallah was right Think maybe he has an agenda??
    do you even read stuff or just look for a snip to discredit it. Thats a rhetorical question. Israel has every right to defend itself. But it should do so in a way that is productive. Killing civilians, acting solely in a unilateral way, refusing to talk to the neighbors, calling everyone terrorists, just isn't going to work and if continued will cause yet more pain and killing within Israel. The US and Israel have to lear how to use their power and strength in ways that dont just make things worse with little prospect of making things better. To think that the existence of Israel will be helped by continued destabilization of the entire region is just delusional.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:00:19 AM EST
    A question...is there something you can do to stop somebody from taking pictures of your family against your will? I was driving my three young nieces home from the park over the weekend. Some creep is driving next to us, I see him taking pictures with his cell phone. At a red light I start screaming at him, asking him whats up with the pictures...he rolls up the window and speeds off. I give chase for a few blocks, then come to my senses that I have the kids with me and think better of it. I did get the plate number. As a rule, I never call the authorities...but I'd like to give my sister (the girl's mother) the option to report it if she wants...but wonder if the authorities can even do anything about it...anyone in the know about such things? It's really bugging me. It happened right by her house...makes it even more creepy, the guy probably lives right around there.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:02:15 AM EST
    SD bugs me because he is a smart guy, and IMHO, should hold himself higher.
    and what do we mean by this? I don't want to make any incorrect assumptions.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by BigTex on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:04:25 AM EST
    Hezbollah forces did not invade Israel. Nice propaganda attempt.
    Che, what else can you call a cross border raid? It was limited in scope and function, but an invasion nonetheless. It is no different than when Israel launched it's raid on Hezbollah after the cease fire went into effect. It violated another county's border with armed forces. Roger - please keep posting. Although we often disagree, you keep the discourse civil and are well reasoned. That makes what you have to say worth reading.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:06:58 AM EST
    Roger - I agree that LWW seems to use the M.E as an excuse to vent some kind of old school Father Coughlin anti-semitism. And I concur with Che that the place wouldnt be the same without ya, Roger.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:08:58 AM EST
    kdog: is there something you can do to stop somebody from taking pictures of your family against your will? Taking pictures of him and his license plate might help. As example, there are quite a few crackheads and coke addicts that hang around the alleys in my neighborhood. On day I came out my front door and found two of them fixing up on the sidewalk in front of my neighbors house. I stood there waching them and described them into my cellphone as if I were talking to someone. (I look rather 'coppish', btw). ;-) They left in a bit of a hurry.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:09:16 AM EST
    As yourself kdog I'm not one for the authorities, they may think the're my daddy but I think otherwise. In this case it's not about us it's about potential harm to kids, if the guy has nothing to hide then there should be no problem, but by his actions there is reason for concern. Get yourself down the nick and have your two bits worth.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:09:17 AM EST
    kdog: Yes, you have three choices: 1) Politely take the camera from him and tell him you are so sorry for being so disagreeable, or 2) Take you nieces to Owens Mills or Sears and get a family photo with a beautiful backdrop and then hand them to the person the next time they pull up next to you, or 3) Shoot him! (with your camera of course)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by Peaches on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:11:01 AM EST
    On the left side, I really enjoy Peaches and the cut of his jib.
    Thanks, Jonathon. I enjoy your take on the issues also.
    The main thing that bugs me about some of the lefties here, is that you disagree on ONE issue.....
    I don't think this is necessarily a leftist thing. It is mor of a human and passion thing. Roger, I agree with a lot of what you say, but we come at the the Israel/palestine/Lebenanon conflict from different perspectives. Once we hash through the issues-we discover we agree for the most part. However, it was difficult to get there, because you are over-sensitive to criticisms of Israel and I am over-sensitive to the careless disregard of the loss of civilain life - be it Israeli, Lebanese or Palestinian. So, we risk offending each other while debating the points, because we each want to passionately point out our position and we each see so much at stake in the argument. It is a sensitive subject, and people's feelings get hurt sometimes. But, we should keep the discussion going and I am also in the camp that appreciates your perspective.
    SD bugs me because he is a smart guy, and IMHO, should hold himself higher.
    SD is one of the most passionate and also one of the most informed. I happen to agree with him on 95% of the issues, so I am rarely bothered by him. He holds himself to a very high standard, imo. He is not going to concede ground on issues has has formed a well-thought out position, however. Nor, should he, I believe. If you challenge him without being equally well informed and if you misrepresent his position or are inaccurate in your assessment of what he is saying, then you will not be given much sympathy or respect in a reply from him. He doesn't give much time to what he percieves as ignorance. Again, nor should he, I believe.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:11:18 AM EST
    kdog - I take it you didnt get his plate number? Pretty bizarre incident. Now you know why Brando broke that guy's jaw.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Peaches on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:12:45 AM EST
    On the left side, I really enjoy Peaches and the cut of his jib.
    Thanks, Jonathon. I enjoy your take on the issues also.
    The main thing that bugs me about some of the lefties here, is that you disagree on ONE issue.....
    I don't think this is necessarily a leftist thing. It is mor of a human and passion thing. Roger, I agree with a lot of what you say, but we come at the the Israel/palestine/Lebenanon conflict from different perspectives. Once we hash through the issues-we discover we agree for the most part. However, it was difficult to get there, because you are over-sensitive to criticisms of Israel and I am over-sensitive to the careless disregard of the loss of civilain life - be it Israeli, Lebanese or Palestinian. So, we risk offending each other while debating the points, because we each want to passionately point out our position and we each see so much at stake in the argument. It is a sensitive subject, and people's feelings get hurt sometimes. But, we should keep the discussion going and I am also in the camp that appreciates your perspective.
    SD bugs me because he is a smart guy, and IMHO, should hold himself higher.
    SD is one of the most passionate and also one of the most informed. I happen to agree with him on 95% of the issues, so I am rarely bothered by him. He holds himself to a very high standard, imo. He is not going to concede ground on issues has has formed a well-thought out position, however. Nor, should he, I believe. If you challenge him without being equally well informed and if you misrepresent his position or are inaccurate in your assessment of what he is saying, then you will not be given much sympathy or respect in a reply from him. He doesn't give much time to what he percieves as ignorance. Again, nor should he, I believe.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by desertswine on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:15:50 AM EST
    Poor Tony's lost his groove. A senior Downing Street source said that, privately, Mr Blair broadly agrees with John Prescott, who said Mr Bush's record on the issue was 'crap'. The source said: "We all feel badly let down by Bush. We thought we had persuaded him to take the Israel-Palestine situation seriously, but we were wrong. How can anyone have faith in a man of such low intellect?"

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:17:33 AM EST
    BT, You are splitting hairs. If we go by your definition, then there have been thousands and thousands of "invasions" in various countries over the last few years. You are deliberatley morphing the definition to suit your one-sided argument and to support (or "echo") PPJ.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:19:41 AM EST
    Nah Jondee...I got the plate...I just don't get involved with the police. I was just wondering if my sister chose to call the police...could they even do anything? I'm guessing not. I think I scared the guy by calling him out, he did speed off. He's lucky I didn't have a snapple bottle or other projectile handy.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:20:26 AM EST
    Hezbollah attacked first. They went across the border, killed 8 soldiers and kidnapped two.
    that's not true. The israelis were making a raid across the border when they were captured.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:20:47 AM EST
    Desertswine. I was in two minds whether to post that myself, some might have said "There goes Oscar bashing Bush again" As if.
    The source said: "We all feel badly let down by Bush. We thought we had persuaded him to take the Israel-Palestine situation seriously, but we were wrong. How can anyone have faith in a man of such low intellect?"


    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:26:20 AM EST
    Kdog. Do it, too many cases past where someone has said "If only I had...." I can understand your reluctance, there is no lower lifeform than a tout (snitch)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:36:29 AM EST
    KDog- The man committed no crime, but where I live, the police would probably go talk to him, to see if he was a molester, or something. If he does this again, you might have a stalking case. Quick poll- how many here remember PPJ when he was just plain "Jim"?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:37:13 AM EST
    Bush dosnt take Israel Palestine seriously because he'd be back clearing brush at his cardboard ranch full-time without the religious right and the war-at-all-costs neocons. That, and that he's congenitally incapable of introspection.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:41:48 AM EST
    Roger - You mean Jim (aka:poker player), or just Jim?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:43:13 AM EST
    "Jim" to AKA. I was here and I think Kdog was here. So was Michael Sweetney, whatever happened to him? I also paid no mind to BigTex, I also appreciate his view of the world, and miss his writin' in the southern style. Took me ten minutes to decipher some of the stuff, but was fun readin' it. Sorry for the slight to Demo and Jondee also, I appreciate your opinions also. Kdog. Whenever I am downtown, there is always someone taking pictures of my 18 month old. My wife does not like it but he is a cute kid and is always smiling and is a complete ham for the camera. But driving down the street, now that creeps me out.....

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:49:00 AM EST
    Jondee, The original, plain old "Jim" J- Tex was fun and unique with the dialect. As I recall, someone complained bitterly. Tex, How about an old-time post, just for fun?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:49:34 AM EST
    Michael Sweeny was great. I hope he's alright, I think he mentioned at some point that he had health issues.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:52:49 AM EST
    Che - Wikipedia does a nice job of describing WWII and invasions by nation states. But this is 2006. And Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that had used UN resolution 1559 to rearm from Iran thousands of missiles... You do see the differences....?? SD writes:
    Israel has every right to defend itself.
    For a second there I thought there was some hope for you... and then you write..
    But it should do so in a way that is productive.
    Now, how can it defend itself against an embedded terrorist group, supplied by a country that has declared by Israel must be destroyed? It can't without killing people. Fact remains. The Hezbohs invaded Israel. BTW - Bradley's comments reveal a hysterically dim view of the world. Let me shorten it. Sin Bad. Love Good. War Bad. Peace Good. Problem is, the terrorists think such thoughts are stupid, and only mean we are weak. His close...
    In the end, the Lebanese people no more want a Hezbollah state than we want a Kahane state. The Lebanese people are not terrorists.
    Wrong. Some of'em do, and some of'em don't. Those that do are aiding and abetting terrorists. The problem is that if some mean ole nasty country doesn't go in there, and into Syria and Iran, those who don't want Hezbollah will not have a word to say about it. Even someone as totally out of touch with reality as you should be able to understand that. You you won't.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:53:39 AM EST
    That's what I thought...Thanks Rog. Creepy is right JLV...can't stop thinking about it, and the news ain't helping! I always remember it being Jim aka PPJ. Regardless...a commenting legend:) For some reason I've grown fond of the old goat....it's probably the poker.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Andreas on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 10:57:35 AM EST
    The WSWS today writes:
    The outcome of the month-long war has been a strategic disaster for both the Israelis and the Bush administration. Israel and the US had prepared the war long in advance, awaiting only a suitable pretext to unleash the supposedly unstoppable power of Israel's air force, artillery and tanks on the guerrilla fighters armed only with rockets and small arms. The goal was to create the conditions for consolidating a pliant, pro-American regime in Lebanon that would serve as a base against Syria and Iran. Saturday's raid is one of multiple efforts by the Israeli and American governments to manage the perceptions of the war and overturn its devastating impact on popular consciousness both in the Arab countries and within Israel itself.
    An outlaw state: Israel breaks ceasefire, threatens to assassinate Hezbollah leader By Patrick Martin, 21 August 2006

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:01:47 AM EST
    Che - Wikipedia does a nice job of describing WWII and invasions by nation states. But this is 2006.
    Can we look forward to no more WW11 analogies then Jim?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#70)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:06:05 AM EST
    Andreas, The dithering around, and changes of plan illustrate that if Israel planned this in advance, then they are a lot less capable than anyone ever thought. If the premise is true, than Hezbollah has nothing to fear.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#71)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:09:52 AM EST
    Jim - Hizbollah was created in large part, by "going in there." People aren't automatically going to cease terrorist attacks and start respecting and loving Bush, Tony Snow and you after you collaterally blow their kids to bits. Btw, how do you plan on "going in there" without a draft? Particlarly when opposition in the U.S to military intervention is at an all time low? Sorry, we all know you'd love to, but you cant do '68 over again.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#72)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:11:16 AM EST
    Peer Profiling

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#73)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:24:07 AM EST
    The problem is, the terrorists think such thoughts are stupid and only mean we are weak Morality is for the weak. I bet they believe humanity dosnt transcend nationality either.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#74)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:24:14 AM EST
    Jim, You do see the differences....?? For you, it's different when it needs to be and the same when it's the same. Prattle on. This is my big problem with individuals like you. You can't even cop to one small error in grammer, if it risks losing face. Suck it up. We all cop to errors. All but you. Never have I ever read words from you here to the effect of "Thanks for correcting me" or "I got that wrong. Sorry". I wish my viewpoints were all as crystal clear and correct as yours. We NEVER stop learning, no matter how old we are.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#75)
    by BigTex on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:26:36 AM EST
    Roger this ol' pole cat is always gald t' oblige. I enjoyed writin' in th' vernacular, but yer observation was shootin' straight, too many o' th' herd here had burrs under th' saddle about th' postin' style, and were usin' that as an excuse t' not give merit t' what was bein' said. I guess it just goes t' reinforce th' old sayin' that it doesn't matter what yer sayin' if th' audience thinks yer dumber than tumbleweed they won't bother t' loot fer th' merit o' what's bein said. It's funny that Oscar mentioned WWII, that gives a fine example o' what th' Israeli's could o' done to th' rattlers. At th' end o' th' war, we had torched roughly half o' Tokyo with incendiary bombs. Given that th' rattlers don't have any fixed wing aircraft, and Isreal told th' herd t' get out o' th' areas south o' th' river, they could o' simply fire and carpet bombed a few key villages that were bein' used as launch pads fer th' rattler's rockets. Then they could o' used their ground forces t' remove the debris. Would o' been like th' Ban in Biblical times t' be sure, but would o' opened th' area up fer ground forces and forced th' rattlers into areas where th' herd wouldn't o' stood fer bein human shields as easily. That was fun. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#76)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:30:16 AM EST
    Nice Tex...this yankee always got a kick out of the Texas vernacular too.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#77)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:37:25 AM EST
    Thanks Tex, we could all use a little levity now and then

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#78)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:41:33 AM EST
    thanks Tex. I have sent it to my inlaws for interpretation. Once I know what in the hell you said, I will comment.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#79)
    by jondee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:50:39 AM EST
    Speaking of levity, anyone else catch Dennis Leary's quest announcer spot at the Red Sox game the other night?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#80)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:54:18 AM EST
    BT, Don't stop. I was getting good at deciphering it, then you quit. Definitely refreshing and unique.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#81)
    by Sumner on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:56:42 AM EST
    I gave a speech in 1996, during my designated hour, within the designated "free speech zone", set up for "official protests" during the Republican National Convention. I warned of the coming war on sex, porn and nudity, and how Joe Biden had accused Bob Dole of gutting 800 years of common law in order to go about it. A Cassandra warning it would seem. (Yes, I still retain a copy of that speech.) Bob Dole lost that election, but ultimately, Bob Dole's war sacked Bill Clinton's presidency. It has been said that an assassination is a murder that changes the course of the world. The murder of JonBenet Ramsey, later that year in 1996, was just such an event. An assassination. The war targets people with unpredictable ploys. For instance, during the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping Court TV anchor and former Texas judge Catherine Crier, interviewed a "psychic" who then described the perpetrator as... well, she went on to describe my age, my politics, where I live, and then in something of a background, gave the correct initials of BOTH of my parents. The color of the car is the only thing she stated wrong. She said "black" instead of "white". But since "black" is the color of "darkness" and "white" its inverse, that was probably calculated. Since I had no role in the kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart, I knew it was a put-up. I have since realized government is carefully introducing programming on television to convince people that "psychic" testimony should be allowed into weighty evidence. (One to watch for.) Very few venues exist to challenge the morals war. When Cryptome.org gave notice that the United States Sentencing Commission was accepting comments before issuing their guidelines, I had but a scant few days to respond. (Yes I retain a copy of my response). Cryptome.org has an interesting post today on the media blitz about "modeling sites". Yes, my pornography commission has cited an official ID number. I am not immediately aware of many others that have defended this area, for this long. I know the files listed in the Cryptome.org cite. They are tame. A glance at Google news last night, showed that 20 sites had also immediately tackled the topic.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#82)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 11:58:45 AM EST
    Scorched earth with a texas drawl. Are the rattlers so bad that you have to incinerate S. Lebanon? Wow.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#83)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 12:06:57 PM EST
    Che, I think it was an illustration of what could happen, if the Israelis really didn't care about civilian life. BTW- How many did we kill invading Iraq? The Israelis are humanitarians compared to us.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#84)
    by desertswine on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 12:11:23 PM EST
    ...they could o' simply fire and carpet bombed a few key villages...
    Menschens Kinders!!!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#85)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 12:17:12 PM EST
    War is ugly. Total war is.....

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#86)
    by manys on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 12:23:33 PM EST
    Hmm, there seems to be an elephant in the room with some of the major themes in this thread. Have Lebanon's reasons for not recognizing Israel been explored, acknowledged and/or delegitimized? I'm not expressing an opinion on this because I'm fairly ignorant on the subject, but a fair share of the discourse does not even reference this aspect of the conflict.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#87)
    by Peaches on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 12:51:19 PM EST
    Have Lebanon's reasons for not recognizing Israel been explored, acknowledged and/or delegitimized?
    Many, I don't think Lebanon does not recognize Isreal. I am quite certain Lebanon recognizes Israels right to exist. Even Hezbollah is very careful regarding its public expression on Israels right to exist, claiming they exist and leaving it at that. There have been contributors at TL who have discussed the origins of Israel as a nation state and its claim on Palesitninan land or Palestinians claim on Israel's land -if you will.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#88)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 01:04:09 PM EST
    And Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that had used UN resolution 1559 to rearm from Iran thousands of missiles
    how many countries besides the US and israel consider hez terrorist? please show proof te iran shipped hez the missiles (and no, powerline doesn'r count.) wouldn't you rearm if you had a warmongering state that had occupied your country for 20 years and kept violating 1559 by border excursions and flights by war planes?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#89)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 01:54:23 PM EST
    Peaches, I appreciate your kind words. I do need more patience.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#90)
    by Peaches on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 02:06:08 PM EST
    We all do, at times. I know, that TL would not be the same without you and I really appreciate your links and commentary. I have benefitted much from your contributions. Thanks

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#91)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 02:09:09 PM EST
    Roger
    edger, Did you see "30 days" last week? An atheist goes to live with a fundi family.
    I didn't see it. But it seems that the atheist was the one with the courage and the open mind, not the fundi... Somehow I don't find that surprising. ;-)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#92)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 02:15:17 PM EST
    EU won't label Hezbollah 'terrorist' group [...] Six countries have designated part or all of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, a label vehemently disputed by other countries.
    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#93)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 02:17:06 PM EST
    PPJ writes
    BTW - Bradley's comments reveal a hysterically dim view of the world. Let me shorten it. Sin Bad. Love Good. War Bad. Peace Good.
    No! and I'm not surprised you failed to get it right. His major point, IMO, was that not all of "them" are terrorists and lumping them all together is counter productive. Lets look at the neocon's view of the world. We know that their goals in the ME are 1. control the natural resources of the ME. 2. project power towards the east and 3. find a place to physically be able to base american military power. The WOT is like the WMD ruse in that its a way of covering up their true goals since few Americans would condone mass killing for resources. This is why the neocons are always labelling everyone in a country a terrorist. They know that unless they can install a puppet government, force will have to be used to gain control. Many people will resist and therefore have to be killed. Killing terrorists can be marketed to the sheep. This is why the neocons and their pundits are constantly talking about war of civilizations etc. They understand what its going to take to control the ME, a lot of death and destruction. To the neocons and their apologists like Slado and PPJ killing Muslims to further their political agenda is no more morally upsetting than for a normal person to stomp on ants at a picnic. So in the end the neocon philosophy is empty and nihilistic. There is no inherent value to human life [ and I'm not talking dollars and cents]. They are no different than many other authoritarian leaders. The state is the most important entity. Your value as a human being depends on what you can do for the state. This also applies to those within the country as well as out.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#94)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 02:30:56 PM EST
    Summer is almost over, and for anyone looking for something useful too do this fall, here's an idea. :-)
    A long-term U.S. presence is not a force for a democratic, stable and peaceful Iraq. Most Iraqis gave up long ago any thought that the U.S. military is a liberating force. The occupation breeds popular resentment. It adds to the turmoil. It strengthens the political positions of the most reactionary forces in Iraq, like former Saddam Hussein/Baathist elements and Islamic militias. And it isn't -- and this becomes increasingly clearer every day -- preventing the slide of the country into civil war and chaos. The occupation gives the Bush administration the ability to exploit and exacerbate sectarian divisions in this battered country, with an eye to establishing a regime that caters to U.S. corporate/geopolitical interests and allows a permanent U.S. military presence there. Thus, an end to the occupation would not only remove the Bush administration from the driver's seat in Iraq, where it now sits. It would also open up possibilities for more progressive political dynamics in Iraq and in the rest of the world. Ending the occupation, the 2006 elections, and tactics


    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#95)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 02:41:25 PM EST
    " Unless we change direction, we are likely to end up where we are headed. " -- Chinese proverb "If it were really the case that terrorists "hate us for our freedoms," we'd be getting more popular with Al Qaeda every month." -- Julian Sanchez of Reason{dot}com

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#96)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 02:41:45 PM EST
    Alright, enough talk, let's rock. Check out this video of the intensely inimitable PJ Harvey, performing a solo version of "Rid of Me". Rip-roaring righteous, my friends. Enjoy.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#97)
    by soccerdad on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 02:55:40 PM EST
    some quotes from the Prez's news conference terrorists attacked us and killed 3,000 of our citizens before we started the freedom agenda in the Middle East. They were ... Q: What did Iraqi have to do with that? Bush: What did Iraq have to do with what? Q: The attacks upon the World Trade Center. Bush: Nothing. Except for it's part of ---- and nobody's ever suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a ---- Iraq ---- the lesson of September the 11th is: Take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. -------- Now look, part of the reason we went into Iraq was ---- the main reason we went into Iraq, at the time, was we thought he had weapons of mass destruction. It turns out he didn't but he had the capacity to make weapons of mass destruction. ---------------------- Bush: The strategy is to help the Iraqi people achieve their objectives and their dreams, which is a democratic society. That's the strategy. The tactics ---- now, either you say, yes, it's important that we stay there and get it done; or we leave. We're not leaving so long as I'm the president. That would be a huge mistake. link

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#98)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 03:12:55 PM EST
    If we can't agree that Hezzbollah is a terrorist orginization then whats the point of arguing? You hold Isreal to an impossible standard and Hezzbollah to not only no standard but you deny that Hezzbolah is what it is. A group can be both evil and good at the same time while being on the whole evil. Example: Nazi Germany. If you asked the Germans living in Berlin in 1936 what their government had done for them it would have won 90% approval ratings because in their view they'd done nothing but good. So why was that? The simple answer is they needed the support of their counrtymen so they could wage war on the rest of Europe and kill as many Jews as possible. Just like their were Nazi apologists then we apparently have Hezzbollah apologists now blogging on TL. The more things change the more they stay the same. That so many enlightned individuals on this site can't see through the BS of a run of the mill madman or are so blinded by partisan hatred for GW, the US, republicans, war etc... is truley amazing. Isreal should not be a red/blue, right/left issue but for some on the left the temptation to embrace the underdog, no matter how vile is too irresistable.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#99)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 03:19:34 PM EST
    Well Slado, If we can't agree that bushco is a terrorist organization then whats the point of arguing? You hold bushco to not only no standard but you deny that busco is what it is. I doubt you'll comprehend the point I'm making here Slado, but hey, you never know. Stranger things have happened before. And maybe you'll wake up one day.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#100)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 03:26:53 PM EST
    More blues and bones-thumping from Ms. Polly Jean Harvey. Listen up, peeps!! Meet Ze Monsta Wang Dang Doodle

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#101)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 03:44:04 PM EST
    Aw, who cares, one more from PJ. It's been a long day, I need the release. Is anyone listening? "Dress", live in 2001

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#102)
    by desertswine on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 03:54:57 PM EST
    Thanks for Polly, Dadler. I've never heard that one note played so well. Heh.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#103)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 04:00:38 PM EST
    If we can't agree that Hezzbollah is a terrorist orginization then whats the point of arguing?
    slado, it doesn't matter what 'we' agree on, we have no say in the matter, but only 4 countries in the world outside of the US and israel think hez is a terrorist organization. Hez is an umbrella group that has political, military, religious and guerilla factions ('terrerists' is just too polarizing to use for this discussion), think IRA rather than AQ. If we can change the discussion from 'us' v 'them' to reasonable factions on both sides can have mutual grounds there might be a solution, permanent rather than 'final.' Refusing to negotiate and continued military outrages (name one hez violation after the ceasefire, I can link to a few israeli ones), are not a viable path, an eye for an eye eventually leaves everyone blind. Once you demonize and label 'evil' you have reduced whatever opponent to subhuman. After that you can justify anything.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#104)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 04:35:51 PM EST
    Sailor, According to the article you cite, 6 countries in the EU consider Hezbollah at least partially, a terrorist organization. The article quotes the head of the EU, from Finland, saying that now is "not the time" to be making decisions like this. Finland recently had pro-Israel, anti-Hezbollah popular rallies. "Now is not the time" is not the same as "it isn't true". Apparently, the Finnish people consider Hezbollah a terrorist org.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#105)
    by Dadler on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 05:04:21 PM EST
    desert, i like to think of it as minimalism. wink wink.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#106)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 05:17:29 PM EST
    That so many enlightned individuals on this site can't see through the BS of a run of the mill madman
    But we can Slado, all too easily.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#107)
    by John Mann on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 05:32:20 PM EST
    Roger:
    The dithering around, and changes of plan illustrate that if Israel planned this in advance, then they are a lot less capable than anyone ever thought.
    Unless the Bush administration was directing their efforts, of course.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#108)
    by roger on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 05:34:58 PM EST
    JM, That would make Bush MORE capable than anyone ever thought!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#109)
    by John Mann on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 05:41:31 PM EST
    Roger, touche.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#111)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 06:17:10 PM EST
    Roger - Started as Jim, I think in Feb 03... Too many Jims so I became Poker Player Jim... Then JimakaPokerPlayer.. Poker Player caused a problem for TL if it was in the moniker, so I turned into PPJakaJim and then JimakaPPJ.. Sweeney was interesting, guess he decided he had a life. ;-) But Tex talks Tex, not "southern." I think edger showed around 8/03, Squeaky later... JL - Me to, and you, Roger, Sweeney, Peaches, Kdog, FL Roger, Patrick, Dadler, Slado...remember Slado would never agree with me on dope, medical, etc...ras, Roy, cpinva, kdog and apologies to those I misssed..I think we could pull up a chair, pop a top..argue for a bit and then go have dinner and talk about baseball, footballs, girls, poker, cars, girls, poker, girls, cars, girls, girls ;-) And this is why I love SD. SD you wrote in my question as to why the
    Why should they refute it given the recent fiascos in Iraq and lebanon.
    Because they think it is wromg? That's the only reason to refute anything. So obviously,they don't. Sailor - No. That's not what the article says. I quote:
    The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them. The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity.
    Hezbollah came across, attacked, killed 8...THEN Israel followed them into Lebanon...had two kidnapped and dispatched more to try and keep the soldiers from being taken further into Lebanon. See how you ignore little things.. BTW - Hez violations? Well, there was the small matter of them trying to get missiles from Iran... That got blown up...;-) edger writes:
    I didn't see it. But it seems that the atheist was the one with the courage and the open mind, not the fundi... Somehow I don't find that surprising. ;-)
    Neither did anyone else. kdog - How'd you do in Vegas????

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#112)
    by jimcee on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 06:26:14 PM EST
    IMHO nobody 'won' this latest round between Israel and Hezbollah. An easy way to tell is that everybody says they won. As a matter of fact they are all losers. Hezbollah suffered substantial loses in both fighters and material although they did succeed in controling the media microphone with a pretty good propaganda campaign. (Google the 'Green Helmet Guy') Israel came off as impotent against entrenched terrorists. Olmert came off as a wavering leader at the time his people most needed and supported him. Netanyatu will replace him within a year and this war will be rejoined. Iran was exposed as the supplier of the rockets and other materiel used by Hezbollah to terrorize Israeli civilians. They will most likely have a much more difficult time re-supplying Hezbollah in the future. Assad of Syria has come off as nothing more than a stooge of the Mulllahs, less than a pawn. The Lebanese gov't has proven both its military weakness and its sham democracy that it has continued to not only allow itself to be host to terrorists but actually has Hezbollah representitives sitting in the executive cabinet. Not to mention its people being used as human shields for terrorists and the serious detruction of its infrastructure. The Bushies didn't fair well because they gave Olmert the look-away pass to wipe out Hezbollah and he wimped out. The Bushies also agreed to another UN resolution under French pressure that is sure to fail. The UN as usual allowed its useless resolutions to be ignored and its most recent to fall apart before it began. The French forced an agreement in the UN and demanded to be in charge in Lebanon and agreed to send in 3000 troops to help out. The number was instantly reduced to 300 and they have no rules of engagment nor will they enforce UN 1559 and disarm Hezbollah. A major loser in this whole thing was the MSM in that they allowed themselves to be blatantly used by Hezbollah who led them around and told them tales of suffering while showing them clean stuffed animals in the ruins of apartment buildings. They paraded bodies of children killed in staged photo-ops and the media reported it as fact without ever mentioning that they knew this was propaganda. The nadir of thier descent into dhimmitude to terrorists was printing obviously 'photoshopped' pictures. They then defended themselves by explaining that thier regular photo-editor was out that day and his second couldn't tell they were forgeries. No, there are no winners in this small battle and that is sure to flare up again in the near future and more innocents will die again and again.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#113)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:24:00 PM EST
    Nope, the article clearly says :
    The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon
    Now, if it had been in israel they would have said so.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#114)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:27:42 PM EST
    Dadler, Where'd you find her? Is she local?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#115)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:30:38 PM EST
    Nevermind. I checked her website.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 21, 2006 at 07:54:16 PM EST
    Sailor - Yes, after Hezbollah came across the border, killed 8 and fled, Israel attacked and had two kidnapped. Keep your timeline straught. If Israel had first attacked Hezbollah and had 8 killed the MSM would have said so. Jimcee - Yes, but we all know it was Israels fault. You see... First they exist. Secondly they are friends of America. That can't be tolerated.. Nope. No way. It's wrong. Bad. Can't be allowed. (sarcasm of course for the casual visitor...)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#117)
    by roger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:45:27 AM EST
    If you play the game of who did what first, you never reach an end

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 05:17:04 AM EST
    Roger - True. But it is helpful in figuring out responsibility.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#119)
    by Sailor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 07:38:53 AM EST
    ppj can't even understand plain written english. Sheesh.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#120)
    by roger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 08:13:06 AM EST
    OK then, we all know that it is the fault of the Romans. 79 AD

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#121)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 08:15:54 AM EST
    If you play the game of who did what first, you never reach an end
    excellent point

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#122)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 09:38:44 AM EST
    Che, Glad you went to her website. She's a miner's daughter from Wales, and kicks motherloving rock-n-roll ace. Saw her last year in San Diego and she just ripped the place up. Friends who went with, and had never heard of her, were just blown away. Been into her for more than ten years and still can't get enough.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#123)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 09:44:15 AM EST
    Dadler - Lotta sleepers like that. I went to hear (pre "Oh Brother") T Bone Burnett several years back, and there was like 25 people in the place. Same thing one time when I saw Roy Buchanan.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#124)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 10:23:36 AM EST
    Sailor:
    Sheesh.
    I suspect he meant it is helpful in assigning blame and avoiding responsibility. ;-)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#125)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 10:37:41 AM EST
    et al - Okay. You want deep dumb sayings, my favorite from the 60's: Food is.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#126)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 10:49:29 AM EST
    ppj - I would suggest that you go out into the middle of your vegetable garden, assume the lotus posture, and just "be" with the garden for awhile. Then, when you feel particularly at-one with the garden, make an offering of deep gratitude. But, what am I saying? Im sure you do that already.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#127)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 10:53:31 AM EST
    Jondee? Vegetables are.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#128)
    by roger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 11:11:19 AM EST
    Food and vegies were. Now ADF has things their way.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#129)
    by roger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 11:12:42 AM EST
    Sorry, that should be ADM

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#130)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 11:36:04 AM EST
    Roger, yeah they make stuff that one day just might unwind our DNA, or make an arm grow out of the middle of your forehead, or worse. ;-)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#131)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:01:00 PM EST
    Scribe, in your link to the LA atty, it states she got a drunk driver who smashed into three cars plea-bargained down to a traffic ticket and no restitution. No restitution? Doesn't seem like an example of justice to me, although it may be an example of an effective atty...

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#132)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:04:14 PM EST
    Sorry, that was meant for the Tuesday open thread...

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#133)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:37:52 PM EST
    Edger - And are not. It's a Zen thing. Of course, I think it was Zappa who said: If you call any vegetable by name, the chances are good that the vegetable will respond to you.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#134)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:41:47 PM EST
    Stop that Jondee! I'm at work and it's hard to get anything done while laughing this hard. ;-)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#135)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:45:59 PM EST
    I think I could turn and live with the vegetables, they're so placcid and self contained. Whitman

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#136)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:48:43 PM EST
    A vegetable garden in the beginning looks so promising and then after all little by little it grows nothing but vegetables, nothing, nothing but vegetables. --Gertrude Stein

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#137)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 01:04:26 PM EST
    A turnip is turnip is a turnip.

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#138)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 01:10:02 PM EST
    Turnips. Yecccccchhhh!

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#139)
    by Peaches on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:10:37 PM EST
    Everytime I eat vegetables, it makes me think of you The Ramones

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#140)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:47:56 PM EST
    Actually, Im more of a melon man myself. And I mean that only in the all the best senses that cannotes. Btw Che, that reminds me, any news on the inter office relations front?

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#141)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:15:10 PM EST
    In Number Conservation: Planting Monster Melons**, the Math Monsters introduce the concept of conserving numbers by comparing piles of monster melon seeds and lengths of hoses as they plant and work in a garden. **kid safe link ;-)

    Re: Monday Open Thread (none / 0) (#142)
    by Sailor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:35:30 PM EST
    If Israel had first attacked Hezbollah and had 8 killed the MSM would have said so.
    I linked to where they did say so Willfully ignorant is so much worse than just stupid.

    Monday Open Thread | 141 comments (141 topical)