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Tuesday Open Thread

The news is still focused on Ramsey coverage, but you don't have to be. Here's a place to discuss whatever's on your mind.

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    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Sailor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 09:05:46 AM EST
    An alternative to the JonBenet media frenzy: Beautiful Dead Girls

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by kipling on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 09:14:10 AM EST
    Juan Cole compares the coverage of this "story" with that of Abeer al-Janabi, and considers some reasons for the disparate coverage. I'm so glad I don't have US cable television: "The man who probably killed JonBenet Ramsay is now getting on the plane. Now he's looking at the cameras. The man arrested for the killing of JonBenet Ramsay is now sippin champagne. Now he's eating a pretzel... We interrupt this broadcast for flashnews - another development in the JonBenet Ramsay case. The man arrested for the murder is now getting off the plane, having sipped champagne ON the plane..." This isn't journalism, guys, this is self-parody.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 09:17:49 AM EST
    I know I asked before, and it's of course a preeminently depressing topic, but, does anyone have any figures on the number of children that died under similar circumstances in the last ten years?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 09:24:02 AM EST
    There are some related stats available Jondee. The National Center for Missing and Expolited Children has a FAQ Page here. DOJ has a page on infanticide and homicide trends here. Googling "murdered children statistics" is rather eye opening as well...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 09:29:06 AM EST
    Kipling, The reason why people are watching the JonBenet case (as well as Talklefts continuous updates) is that it is a MYSTERY. We don't know who did it, nor do we know why. I don't know why some cases garner this much attention - they just do. Now the brutal rape and murder is Iraq is not a mystery. It was done, we know who did it, they will (hopefully) be taken through the judicial system. I do find it odd that certain cases attract media attention while others don't. Natalie Holloway, O.J. Simpson, Jessica Smart... - I think it has to do with middle class, suburbia being touched by the crimes instead of dysfunctional situations. That's my theory...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 09:39:55 AM EST
    Nobody ever uses the word "scandalous" when poor kids get left behind..Well, maybe that "Destroyer of America" Jonathon Kozol.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Dadler on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 10:03:38 AM EST
    A twisted, tormented cover of The Stones' "Satisfaction" -- for the War on Terror in all of us. And I apologize for the PJ Harvey fetish the last couple days. Sometimes art is just much more comforting company.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by scribe on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 10:32:01 AM EST
    The "beautiful dead girls" diary from kos is just heart-rending....

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 10:35:58 AM EST
    As Zimmy said, "The executioner's face is always well hidden."

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by scribe on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 10:43:48 AM EST
    A fun read. Or, as the message forwarding it to me read: "Duuude, your lawyer is sooo coool."

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by cpinva on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 11:56:53 AM EST
    bocajeff, the cases you cite made the news for one of two reasons: 1. they involved a celebrity (o.j. simpson). or, 2. someone in the immediate family had access to the news media, and used it (ramsey). most poor people are neither of the above. hence, their deaths don't create much of a stir, unless one of the two above is involved.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:05:02 PM EST
    Scribe, in your link to the LA atty, it states she got a drunk driver who smashed into three cars plea-bargained down to a traffic ticket and no restitution. No restitution? Doesn't seem like an example of justice to me, although it may be an example of an effective atty...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:17:01 PM EST
    Heard a story on the news this AM that one of the 10 biggest donators to political campaigns is a British defense contractor. While I'd imagine this will be siezed on by many as another aspect of the "Bush-lier/Rethuglican plan to rule the world" or some such, I was struck by relatively tiny amount of money - 650K - that the Brit co. donated. Presumably the contracts it has with the Pentagon et al are in the 10's or 100's of millions. Sadly, it really doesn't take much $ to buy access to our politicians.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by desertswine on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:49:00 PM EST
    Thousands of marines face involuntary recalls. Here.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 12:52:46 PM EST
    involuntary recalls. A draft by any other name is still a...

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by Sailor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 01:56:51 PM EST
    I heard this exchange on an elevator at work today: "I saw that Samuel Jackson movies last night" "Which one?" "Snakes on a plane" "Oh, yeah? What's that about?" At which point I exited a floor early.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by BigTex on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 01:56:58 PM EST
    Edgar - enforcemnt of the contract? Montague and Capulet this is not. In environmental news, a new, far reaching study of greenland glacial retreat has come out. The results? 70% of the glaciers in Greenland have been retreating since the 1880's. So much for the thought that human induced global warming is the cause of glacial retreat. This isn't to say that human induced global warming hasn't aggervated the condition, undoubetedly it has, but it is not the cause of the retreat, no matter how badly Lester Brown and Al Gore want it to be.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by BigTex on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:01:20 PM EST
    Oops, forgot to give the source

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:03:59 PM EST
    Sailor - Thats the one about the PNAC signatories traveling to a conference, isn't it?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:15:02 PM EST
    "Snakes on a plane" "Oh, yeah? What's that about?"

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Sailor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:16:06 PM EST
    Thousands of marines face involuntary recalls. Here.
    Yet somehow they're exceeding their recruiting goals every month. Hmmmm.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by roy on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:22:47 PM EST
    BigTex,
    enforcemnt of the contract?
    Newscritters insist on calling it "involuntary" recall, but of course the marines voluntarily accepted the terms of their enlistment, including time in the Ready Reserve. If some marines regret accepting those terms, that may indicate serious problems, but it does not a draft make.
    70% of the glaciers in Greenland have been retreating since the 1880's. So much for the thought that human induced global warming is the cause of glacial retreat.
    Pollution was invented well before 1880. Industrial revolution. Coal as a major fuel source. Cabbage-heavy diets.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:27:04 PM EST
    Big Tex: 70% of the glaciers in Greenland have been retreating since the 1880's. So much for the thought that human induced global warming is the cause of glacial retreat. Global Warming: Fact vs. Myth
    MYTH: Human activities contribute only a small fraction of carbon dioxide emissions, an amount too small to have a significant effect on climate, particularly since the oceans absorb most of the extra carbon dioxide emissions. FACT: Before human activities began to dramatically increase carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere, the amount of carbon dioxide emitted from natural sources closely matched the amount that was stored or absorbed through natural processes. For example, as forests grow, they absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere through photosynthesis; this carbon is then sequestered in wood, leaves, roots and soil. Some carbon is later released back to the atmosphere when leaves, roots and wood die and decay. Carbon dioxide also cycles through the ocean. Plankton living at the ocean's surface absorb carbon dioxide through photosynthesis. The plankton and animals that eat the plankton then die and fall to the bottom of the ocean. As they decay, carbon dioxide is released into the water and returns to the surface via ocean currents. As a result of these natural cycles, the amount of carbon dioxide in the air had changed very little for 10,000 years. But that balance has been upset by man. Since the Industrial Revolution, the burning of fossil fuels such as coal and oil has put about twice as much carbon dioxide into the atmosphere than is naturally removed by the oceans and forests. This has resulted in carbon dioxide levels building up in the atmosphere. Today, carbon dioxide levels are 30% higher than pre-industrial levels, higher than they have been in the last 420,000 years and are probably at the highest levels in the past 20 million years.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:34:21 PM EST
    This isn't to say that human induced global warming hasn't aggervated the condition, undoubetedly it has, but it is not the cause of the retreat, no matter how badly Lester Brown and Al Gore want it to be.
    Isolating to one part of the world does not prove or disprove the global warming theory since the temperature at any point on the earth is a function of many factors including overall warming, changes in ocean currents, etc. . There is no doubt anymore that man is responsible for most of the warming that has occured over the last 50 years see this What is open for debate is the magnitude of the average temperature rise expected. The most probable rise is thought to be around 2-3 degrees, the worst predictions have it going as high as 5 degrees. To extrapolate this report which as yet has not been peer reviewed to indicate that the theory of global warming has been debunked ignores thousands of other observations. To support or debunk the theory involves reconciling all the legitimate observations. What also is not know with a great deal of accuracy is the exact change in temperature at a specific location on the globe, the increases that are being talked about are an averged temperature.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Peaches on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:39:14 PM EST
    Big Tex, You assert
    So much for the thought that human induced global warming is the cause of glacial retreat
    I don't undersatnd your conviction. From Your Source
    The effect of the rising temperatures in the 1920s and 1930s was "visible dozens of years later, and that of the 1990s will be (visible) in 10 or 20 years," Yde said, adding that he expected Greenland's glaciers to melt even faster in the future. The shrinking of the glaciers since the 19th century is "the result of the atmosphere's natural warming, following volcanic eruptions for example and greenhouse gases, created by human activities, which have aggravated the situation further," he said.
    I think we all have to resort to reality that somethings are uncertain or unknowable. Certainly, many things are difficult if not impossible to prove. We can only make correlations. Greenhouse gases have been increasing as a percentage in our atmosphere since the onset of the industrial revolution and the begining of burning of fossil fuels to drive the world economy, around 1880 give or take a few decades. Is this the cause of glacial retreats. It certainly seems to be a possiblity, but I don't have a conviction either way. Iow, hell if I know. What makes you so certain?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by soccerdad on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 02:49:10 PM EST
    Amr Hamzawy of the Carnegie Endowmment for International Peace has an article on Rice's "Birth of a new Middle East" entitled Stillborn Illusions
    ........No doubt the invasion of Iraq and occupation of Baghdad were contemporaneous with the drafting of the Middle East partnership initiative and the "Greater Middle East Initiative" endorsing democratic reform and freedom in Arab societies. Regardless of differences concerning any given reading of the true goals and intentions behind these two initiatives, at the time, no Arab politician, activist or intellectual, could help but reject the initiatives, irrespective of ideology, for they were but new episodes in the saga of imposing American hegemony on the Middle East and breaking Arab will.
    snip
    On the other hand, the ideological convictions of the current resident of the White House, and many symbols of his administration, prevent an effective understanding of the complexity and interconnectedness of Middle East conflicts, pushing interpretations in a perilously reductive, unilateral direction.
    snip
    Reflecting its obsession with American power and overeager pursuit of national interests, the Bush administration is further characterised by impetuousness in dealing with international and regional developments as strategic opportunities for reinforcing American hegemony without the least regard for international legitimacy or material and human cost.
    snip
    As for the project of endorsing democracy and freedom in the Arab world, it was born an orphan, due to the administration's hesitation in prioritising its strategic importance as compared with other American interests, be they hegemony, oil or Israeli security, and because it lacked any realistic mechanisms enabling its implementation in the light of Washington's friendly relations with most of the regimes in power.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:04:25 PM EST
    it seems to me that if you take the combination of millions of more people, perhaps billions, living on the planet than 100years ago,the development of the combustion engine,a dramatic increase of co2 emmissions, that there is going to be an effect in the earths atmosphere that is unprecedented! if we continue on, as we have in the past, the planet will survive, but i doubt it will be inhabited by humans.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:41:33 PM EST
    JEM: COncerning JonBenet Ramsey; do you recall the Colorado FBi ( CBI ) computer crimes unit requesting national news organizations(CNN announced it) to ask the public if anyone could indentify an AOL moniker who posted and emailed in the JonBenet Ramsey case--this was just exactly prior to 9-11 (September 11, 2001) Event sof 9-11 occured and nothing more was said. I was wondering if that AOL Moniker was DAXIS, or related to John Mark Karr.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 03:41:33 PM EST
    Seems like alot of the "Iran is next" idealogues and lgf posters, full as they claim to be with "grim" and "steely" resolve, are forgetting an important piece of history when the fail to recall that the most common responce on the part of (generally non-slaveholding) Confederate soldiers, when asked why they were fighting, was : "Because you're down here"; not, "We've been hoping and praying that you would come and liberate us from our quasi-fuedal, pre-capitalist society." But then, trepidations about human costs are for the weak. And those actually in the-line-of-fire.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:34:44 PM EST
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:42:29 PM EST
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by jen on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 04:52:20 PM EST
    Snakes on a Plane Isn't that the touching historical romance about a young girl's coming of age during aftermath civil war as she searches for her twin brother (with the help of the dashing yankee captain)?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 05:09:01 PM EST
    I think they could use a dashing Yankee down Texas way, the candidate Van Taylor is on tweetie's show opposite Paul Hacket. I can't believe that anyone would use the same old tired talking points as an election platform. But then I don't know Texas.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 06:17:19 PM EST
    hotfroggy - Actually the atmosphere is cleaner now than a 100 years ago around all of the major population centers. Why? Because 100 years ago the vast majority of them heated with wood or coal. Same with auto emissions as compared to 30 years ago. Look at LA as an example. Oscar writes:
    But then I don't know Texas.
    No argument from me. Jen - Uh, there were no dashing Yankee captains. Just ask Scarlet.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#35)
    by jen on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 06:26:39 PM EST
    I bet he was dashing after she set the dog on him

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#36)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 06:31:47 PM EST
    They may not've been dashing, but they always showed up for their physicals.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#37)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 06:54:45 PM EST
    Now now, snakes is no oscar winner, but even Sam Jackson can't talk about it without snickering about the silliness of it all. I thnk it is establishing quasi cult status already. It has to be one of the lowest grossing top finishing movies in history. I haven't seen it but I heard it should be seen at the late showing because the crowds are more fun. Like Dadler and PJ Harvey, we need our small diversions to ground us once in awhile. It's also good to keep up with the cultural ebbs and flows to reduce isolationism. But we don't forget the work to be done. All work and no play yada, yada... Stay loose all.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#38)
    by cpinva on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 07:00:24 PM EST
    hotfroggy - Actually the atmosphere is cleaner now than a 100 years ago around all of the major population centers. Why? Because 100 years ago the vast majority of them heated with wood or coal. Same with auto emissions as compared to 30 years ago. Look at LA as an example.
    actually, no, it isn't. you're refering to particulate pollution, the type caused by coal burning emissions. in fact, those have deceased, in areas that no longer use coal & wood as their primary heating/cooking sources. london is an excellent example of this. however, pollution from gas emissions has significantly increased in the past 100 years, as well as heat emissions, from those same alternate energy sources. this would be the primary cause of the dangerous increases in both CO2 and ozone emissions into both the lower and upper atmospheres. add to this the exponential increase in the % of the world's population using oil as fuel (china comes quickly to mind, as does india), and the decrease in particulates from coal & wood use is more than made up for by the increase in pollutants overall, just from the raw numbers of the world population. think of it as the "k-mart" effect: while each individual is putting out fewer pollutants, the number of individuals is many billions more than it was 100 years ago. frankly, if the oil & gas industry spent as much time and money researching feasible ways to substantially reduce pollution, as they do attempting (poorly) to debunk global warming, we'd all be much better off, and they would be heroes.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Aug 22, 2006 at 07:58:01 PM EST
    Kipling - BION. Modern television receivers have things called "channel selectors" and "on-off" switches. Jen - I laughed so hard I fell out of my chair. ;-) Thank you. I needed that. cpinva writes:
    think of it as the "k-mart" effect: while each individual is putting out fewer pollutants, the number of individuals is many billions more than it was 100 years ago.
    True, but the vast majority of those new comers are not in the world of comsumpation...check your birth rates in Europe and N. America.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#40)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 07:20:45 AM EST
    Jim, Hotfrog was making a claim regarding CO2 and its effect on the climate. The fact is oil and coal can be burned more cleanly, but there is no way to burn them without adding CO2 to the atmosphere. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, I am told. The percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere has been on the rise since the beginning of the industrial age when we started extracting oil and coal from the earth and burning it for energy.
    the vast majority of those new comers are not in the world of comsumpation...check your birth rates in Europe and N. America.
    This is not the point. The point is that as the global economy grows the consumption of fossil fuels grows/ or vice versa. Each year the world economy burns more Oil and Coal than it did the year before. This is called a growth rate. Each year GDP also rises. So far, there is no evidence that growth rates for the burning of fossil fuels can be decoupled from growth rates in GDP. So, as long as the economy grows in the future, we will keep burning more fossil fuels each year than the year before, and more CO2 will be added to the atmosphere than the year before, despite birth rates in North America and Europe. The only hope for the end of this cycle is to stop burning fossil fuels. There is some evidence that we are approaching peak oil production, but there is still alot of coal in the ground. Also, as BIG TEX source affirms, the effects of more CO2 in the atmosphere are often not noticed until decades later in increases in temperature and these increases in temperature take many more years to shrink glaciers and change climate. Unfortuately, we have already put everything in motion and we cannot undo what has been done. Even if we could stop burning fossil fuels today, the effects on climate will still be felt for many decades to come. But, we are not going to stop burning fossil fuels. we are going to continue to burn an increasing amount every year. That is how we grow economies.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#41)
    by desertswine on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 08:53:19 AM EST
    Life imitates art, or entertainment, anyway.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#42)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 09:04:11 AM EST
    Desert. Reminds me of a tale my brother told me, he lives out in Oz. Every snake bite story starts with: There was this snake so I picked up a stick.... But regarding art, now this is what I call art.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#43)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 10:13:01 AM EST
    I'm sure you wouldn't support Ted Kennedy because his father also had financial interests with 1930's Germany?
    bocajeff, I was referring to the '40s. Did a kennedy ever have his assets seized in 1942 for Trading with the Enemy?
    newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
    His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#44)
    by BigTex on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:06:59 PM EST
    Peaches - Jim's point may be worth taking a second look at. Yes, the global economy is growing as you suggest, but what is the source of the increased pollution? Here in the US, we have been focusing on increasing our carbon intensity. Carbon emissions are up 1% (latest numbers I have, which are not current and may not be totally accurate)since Bush took office, while the GDP has increased by 12%. The GDP growth far outpaces the increased carbon emissions. In a nutshell we are cusing carbon more efficiently. As we continue to slowly implement measures to curb carbon emissions that spread will continue to grow. As technology advances we will come to a point where we can continue to increase GDP and gradually cut back on carbon emissions. Or we could give incentives to achieve the same effect. While probablly many here would object to giving industry any incentives, giving them incentive to take advantage of bubble permits would help to curb emissions, and more importantly, help curb emissions where they are concentrated. Give industry a 3 year window where each upgrade under a bubble permit can have the cost of equipment written off as a tax break, and you will see a rush for bubble permits. Also, Detroit is finally seeing the light and coming out with more hybrid vehicles. Granted they aren't much better from an emissions stand point, but it is a step in the right direction. An incentive that could be given to the public is to allow a tax write off for purchasing a diesel vehicle. They cost more, but are cleaner. Make the difference in price tax deductible, and more people will buy them. Unlike the resistance with hybrid vehicles, diesel vehicles are large and powerful, in fact more powerful than gas powered. This way people could still maintain their large vehicles with power, and emissions would drop. Or the incentive could be at the dealership end, subsidise the price diffrence at the dealership so that the sticker price for the gas and diesel version of the vehicles were the same. Simple, small steps now create a cleaner environment, and also make the public more comfortable with change, paving the way for more incremental changes.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#45)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:20:46 PM EST
    Big Tex, We have had this discussion before. You are talking the US. I am talking about the world. The US has exported most of its heavy industries to froiegn countries. These manufacturing industries need fossil fuels to produce the goods that we buy in the US. You're carbon efficiency rating does not tell us much and it misses most of the points I made. 1. we have already added huge amounts of CO2 to the atmosphere and the effects on climate will be felt for years even if we stopped producting CO2. 2. Fossil fuel consumption has a growth rate. A growth rate means that each year we use more than the year before. 3. Burning more fossil fuel means putting more CO2 into the atmosphere. Again, the depths of your convictions are not understandable. I don't get it. My only explanation is that you are on the side of republicans and you will pull out any study or statistic, distort the conclusions and misrepresent the science to obscure and confuse, so we do not have to deal with some very difficult realities - mainly, what will the effects of burning more fossil fuels and putting more CO2 into the atmosphere have on our global environment. Rather than face this tough question, you continue to hold to your convictions and remain with your team.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#46)
    by Bill Arnett on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:26:42 PM EST
    edger- Thanks for the tip on linking on that other topic. I'll try it sometime. BTW, the premise of Snakes on a Plane is so moronic that I laugh every time I see the promos. As a life-long amateur herpetologist who, while overseas, had nine pythons ranging form 6 to 16 feet (all snakes referred to captured wild in the jungle by me), more than 24 cobras in every shade of color from grey to brown to green, spitting cobras and regular, although my thirteen foot-long Indian King Cobra was my prize beauty (a hood big as a pie plate when provoked), as well as various and sundry other reptiles like 9-foot monitor lizards, so I have more than a passing interest and plenty of experience with snakes especially and reptiles in general. The instant I saw the promos I laughed so hard my wife worried I might aggravate my chronic pains, so I then explained to her that the temperature of an airplane would be so cold as to render the snakes dormant and VERY easy to handle - and the scene where the cabin is breached? Man the temperature would have gotten so cold you could use a snake as a baseball bat! What a laugh! I'll still buy it when it comes out on DVD, but only 'cause I'm a hugh fan of Samuel L. Jackson. BTW, I tried to apply for the permits necessary to bring back my Indian King cobra and found out it was so expensive that it would be either the snake or my wife that came back with me, so I flipped a coin and the wife won. I tell her constantly that I was rooting for her to win all the way! She was kind enough to not summarily execute me. (We now have 33-years together, I'm still madly in love with her, and she couldn't beat me away with a stick. And I have the bruises to prove it!)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:32:24 PM EST
    Peaches writes:
    My only explanation is that you are on the side of republicans and you will pull out any study or statistic, distort the conclusions and misrepresent the science to obscure and confuse,
    And the Demos/Left won't? Please, be serious.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#48)
    by BigTex on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:35:34 PM EST
    I hold to my convictions because 1) I believe them and 2) I believe my way of cleaning the environment is the better way to go. It is a balance between the economy and the environment. Also, you give too much credit to the outsourcing. Yes we have sent some heavy industry over, but we still produce ourselves, and produce quite a bit. Now, you know far more about economics so I will defer to your analysis if my next contention is wrong, but from how I understand GDP to work, which may be wrong, GDP deals with total economic activity. Even with moving some manufacturing the economic activity to create economic growth would have to not only increase the GDP by the 12% shown, but also would have to increase it by the amount lost by the oursourcing of manufacturing. That means we have a far higher amount of actual economic activity occurring since manufacturing is a high dollar sector and most of the jobs replacing the manufacturing is not as high dollar. Now if my analysis there is incorrect, please correct me, I do want to learn about how this works. Your pointing out of global emissions is exactly why I hold on to my convictions. It does no good for us to artifically cut back our emissions when the rest of the world will not do so. All that will happen is China, India, Brazil, and soon Indonesia will start polluting more. The appatite for goods is increasing, not decreasing. That means the market will contine to exist, and the goods will contine to be made. It is the wiser course of action to use technology to produce the items more efficiently than it is to change the source of the pollution. If we keep the production here in the US we can continue to slowly implement change and make items more efficiently, and coupled with the suggestions in my last post, could actually start to reduce emissions. Let the production go to China, India, Brazil, and Indonesia, and we have no manner to cut their pollution. Forget about the economic impact, from a purely environmental position it is better we have the pollution here, that way we can continue to produce the items at an ever more efficient rate and soon will be cutting back on the pollution emitted. If the jobs go elsewhere, that will not happen. The other countries do not have as advanced industry as we do, and pollution levels will increase at a faster rate than they are curently because the new source to meet the appatite for goods will be less efficient, making more pollution.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#49)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 01:39:35 PM EST
    And the Demos/Left won't? Please, be serious
    Jim, I was addressing Big Tex, not republicans. The Democrats/Left will, in fact, distort and misrepresent to further an agenda. But I won't. At least, not intentionally. If I do, please call me out on it and I will make a retraction. Now, care to comment on my guts of my post. Increased Fossil Fuels > Increased CO2 = Greenhouse Gas.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#50)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:07:18 PM EST
    Big Tex, I think you are missing the point. And, when you continue to miss the main point, I can't help but think you are doing it purposely to confuse and distort. I know you are intelligent, but I suppose this is what convictions do. Let's keep this simple and forget about GDP. GDP is a hornets nest and we will never keep our discussion contained if we try and analyze what actually is measured in GDP. We are talking about two different things: Pollution and CO2. CO2 is a global emmision. It does not know national boundaries. When Oil and Coal burns in China, the percentage of CO2 in China rises at the same rate as the percentage of CO2 rises in the US. CO2 is produced whenever fossil fuels are burned there is no way around it. Fossil fuels have stored up carbon over millions of years and have kept this in the Earths crust. As we burn Fossil fuel this carbon is released in the atmosphere no matter where it is burned. Fossil fuel consumption and production grows each year in the world. It has been growing since the onset of the industrial age. This has lead to increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. Fossil fuel consumption is projected to keep on growing. Fossil fuels are necessary for manufacturing, but also for agricultural production. We need to keep using more and more fossil fuels to keep our economy growing. Global GDP and Fossil Fuel Production have mirrored each other in growth rates for the last 100 years. There is no indication that this is going to change, despite improvements in the developed countries efficiency ratings. But, the only improtance to GDP is in comparison to fossil Fuel. Even if GDP starts growing at a faster rate than Fossil fuel production, this could simply be an accounting error. Fossil fuel production is a real number. It measures one product in gallons or barrels. GDP is a pecuniary number that measures an aggregate of production or consumption. GDP can grow in any number of ways that has no reflection on the actual production in the economy. In order for CO2 emmission to fall, fossil fuel production has to fall. There is not any indication that this is going to happen soon. In fact its production is going to increase form year to year for many more years into the future most analyst would agree. this is the point.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:18:16 PM EST
    I think we can all probably agree that we humans can, and perhaps are, affecting the world's climate to some degree. To what degree is, also reasonably, debatable. I think that a reasonable opinion is that we humans should choose not to cause such effects. I think it's also a reasonable observation that as there are a lot of people/co's/countries involved in producing CO2 (for example just think how much Anheuser-Bush and Coca-Cola are responsible for) and that to get a climatically significant number of these producers worldwide to reduce such emissions is probably not feasible. So, yes, the obvious answer is that the human race should choose to stop burning fossil fuels. But that won't happen. So what the hell you gonna do?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#52)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:28:33 PM EST
    Add, BT, I am not against technological improvements and I am not saying that improvements in technology cannot help our environment. I just don't think we should bet the bank that technological solutions will eventually lead to a decrease in fossil fuels. I hope they will and I am certainly a progressive for alternatives to fossil fuels, but I am not optimistic that the burning of oil and coal can be replaced by another technology. Efficiency gains are possible and, of course, we shoul pursue this route. But, this changes your original assertion.
    So much for the thought that human induced global warming is the cause of glacial retreat
    based on the source you linked to, which started this discussion. So, yes, we should pursue technologies that increase efficiency in order to reduce the overall level of fossil fuel consumption, because there are apparent dangers to adding more CO2 to the atmospheres. Although, we cannot prove what the effects of these levels of CO2 will be, we should acknowledge the correlations between CO2 levels and climate conditions around the world. A precautionary principal would be prudent here, because the effects just might be catastrophic, if the most extreme predictions bear out. The main target for decreasing CO2 in the atmosphere has to be tied to world fossil fuel production.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#53)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:39:02 PM EST
    sarc: the obvious answer is that the human race should choose to stop burning fossil fuels... But that won't happen... So what the hell you gonna do? What to do? Keep looking for ways to reduce greenhouse gases. Here are a few ways being used now. One thing I do know is that just saying "what the hell you gonna do?" isn't a whole lotta help. ;-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#54)
    by Peaches on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:46:30 PM EST
    Edger, I think Sarc is refering to the enormity of the problem. It is like knowing that the human race eshould stop making war or building nuclear armaments. Or We should stop population growth, etc. There are a lot of things an individual can do, but it is hard to retain hope and optimism for all of humanity when faced with these huge questions and dilemmas. I commend you for attempting to keep hope alive, however.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 02:58:36 PM EST
    Peaches, Thanks, I know he is! Sarc and I have goten along very well for so long I thought I toss a burr under his saddle just this once, for fun. :-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:13:25 PM EST
    edger, I just spent 5 minutes on a reply to you, and now you say your comment was just a "burr?!" That's 5 minutes of my life I'll never get back. ;-) Adios to all until tomorrow!

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#57)
    by BigTex on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:17:21 PM EST
    Peaches - I'm not missing the point. I've said in the past the current global warming is partly human induced, partly natural. No one can seriously argue otherwise. The point of the glacier article is that too many people try to balme all of global warming on humans. Suppose in a hypothetical world we had some way to avoid using fossil fuels. We would still have global warming occurring right now. You can't blame the glacier melt on humans. Also, in the post I said
    This isn't to say that human induced global warming hasn't aggervated the condition, undoubetedly it has,
    that right there should be enough to dispel any notion I am missing the point intentionally. It's an acknowledgement that humans are responsible for some of the global warming, and that the human component has accellerated the glacial melt. But to say that humans are the cause of global warming is niave, and to think that the elimination of fossil fuels will stop global warming is equally niaeve. Global warming has a natural component that we cannot stop, nor should we. The qustion then becomes how do we best deal with what component of global warming we can have some control over. Koyoto style measures will not work. Not only is there vast failure to comply by the countries that have signed on, but too many countries are exempt. All an artificial cut in emissions will do is shift the pollution from countries who are signatories to countries who are exempt. So what is the next best alternative? IMO it is increasing carbon efficiency. That way more product is made from the same amount of carbon. Also, increasing efficiency allows for a reduction in overall emissions. We're probablly never going to see a reduction in the amount of emissions used for agriculture, unless population levels drop off a significant amount. Starvation is too high a price to pay for reducing emissions. So what can we change? We can change the source of energy for things like transportation, and we can better use the fossil fuels we have for production of goods. This will not end emissions, but it will cut them back. Gentle policy measures would be the best way to go to effect this change. Not technology forcing, but incentives. If we simply made a preference for the cleaner technologies we currently have emissions would drop. Plus industry would seek out cleaner alternatives, because they are ultimatly more efficient. Pollution = waste = loss of product. That simple equation is enough to ensure R&D continues. This would be a gradual cutback to be sure, but it strikes a balance between the economy and the environment. Doing a bit of reality checking, the only way that we are going to see cutbacks in emissions is if they do not harm the economy. As underdeveloped countries develop, the demand for goods will increase, so there will be more fossil fuel demand. Developing countries will not tell their people you can't have what the developed countries have because of pollution concerns. That's simply not going to happen. So artificial reductions in emissions will not happen. Even if some countries did reduce their emissions the developing countries would simply pollute more, and no change. The only way to have a lasting impact is to go through technology, and increase carbon efficiency. The hope is that as the developing countries start using more and more fossil fuels our increase in efficiency will make our use less. Along the way, we will develop technologies that will replace fossil fuels for certain uses. It's the slow weaning off that will allow the need for fossil fuels to end.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:23:46 PM EST
    Sarc - I really was hoping for your thoughts on it. Burrs and all! :-)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 03:56:34 PM EST
    Tex: The only way to have a lasting impact is to go through technology, and increase carbon efficiency. The hope is that as the developing countries start using more and more fossil fuels our increase in efficiency will make our use less. Along the way, we will develop technologies that will replace fossil fuels for certain uses. If you had said ONE way instead of the only way I would agree to some degree with much of what you said there. I don't agree that it is the only way, or even that there any one way can solve the problem. Like in a jigsaw puzzle, tehnological advancements, or efficiency improvements, can be only two pices in the overall puzzle. The root of the problem is that we want what we think are the benefits provided to us by the industries that produce the emissions, and I purposely use the word want, even though we have conviced ourselves that we need them. This root is an aspect of our consumer driven economy. In other words we do our best to convince ourselves and others that our wants are needs to keep our economy running, to keep us comfortable. We fool ourselves into thinking it is demand that drives our economy, when it's really artificially created want rather than real demand. It's the slow weaning off that will allow the need for fossil fuels to end. Do we really need the things that we think we need? I haven't owned a car for 11 years. I like them, and they are handy, but I don't really need one. Occassionally I rent one if I want to take a trip that I can't use public transportation for. So the only oil I burn is what is needed for heating. I also own less than will fit in the trunk of a car. So my own consumption of oil, in terms of products purchased that require oil for their production, is much lower than most peoples. These are small things, and they are part of my way of living. Some would see these as too onerous. I see them as freedom, from traps and chains, which is why I live this way. I recognize that my way is not everybodys way, but two side effects are that I use probably contribute to greenhouse gases less than most. I suppose my point here is that mindset changes are just as important as technological changes. Maybe more so.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#60)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 04:01:02 PM EST
    That second to las sentence should should read" ...two side effects are that I use less oil, and I probably contribute to greenhouse gases less than most.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#61)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 04:38:36 PM EST
    Anyone else remember bush writing:
    Excerpt: 2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001
    And then just recently bush said:
    Excerpt: QUESTION: What did Iraq have to do with it?
    BUSH: What did Iraq have to do with what?
    QUESTION: The attack on the World Trade Center.
    BUSH: Nothing. Except it's part of - and nobody has suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack. Iraq was a - Iraq - the lesson of September 11th is take threats before they fully materialize, Ken. Nobody's ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq.
    Can we impeach him now?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#62)
    by Sailor on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 04:45:22 PM EST
    Tex, the 'study' you reported wasn't peer reviewed. To the best of my knowedge there are no peer reviewed studies in the last 6 years that say global warming isn't caused/accelerated by humans. There is no scientific debate on that, it is fact.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 06:46:49 PM EST
    Sailor:
    And then just recently bush said:
    Nobody's ever suggested that the attacks of September the 11th were ordered by Iraq.
    Can we impeach him now?
    Yes we should. Maybe after November it will be possible. Good quote. He flat out lied to start an illegal war of aggression.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 08:55:34 PM EST
    edger - You preach tolerance, but what you really mean is that everyone should live the way you do. You and Fallwell should do lunch one day. Oh, and don't forget Pat. As for cars, like it or not about 99.9% of the population live in areas that are not served by so-called public education. Most people still have to drive to work. If you have a job that doesn't require you to travel, good for you, but most people don't.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#65)
    by BigTex on Wed Aug 23, 2006 at 10:54:03 PM EST
    There is no scientific debate on that, it is fact.
    Accellerated, and I agree with you. Caused? Plenty of debate. The fact is that humans are a part of, not the cause of global warming.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#67)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 06:43:39 AM EST
    BT, We agree on so much. But, I, like Edger, think it is important when you stress the only way vs. one way. More on that below. But, what kind of gets my ire, or makes me think you don't get the point, is when you continue to state assertions such as this.
    The fact is that humans are a part of, not the cause of global warming.
    What bothers me about this statement is not that it is false - in some ways, through certain lenses, it is true. What bothers me is the intention of distorting and misrepresenting the issue. Cause is irrelevant. Showing cause and effect works in isolated experiments in physics. The science of climate is very difficult to demonstrate cause and effect becuase it is so complex - the butterfly effect and all that. In this way it is very similar to the science of Economics -which is also governed by complexity. THe models for economics are very simple and efficient. However, They do not reflect reality at all. They can help us understand the economy, though. We are not demonstrating cause and effect in economics with our models - such as when price rises demand goes down. What we are doing is suggesting a correlation between price and demand - an inverse correlation that says when price goes up demand will go down, ceteris paribus (all things being equal). The last phrase is very important, because in the real world all things are never equal, so we never know what is causing what in the economy. But cause isn't important. The important thing is correlation. I sometimes get miffed when people, (or students when I was an instructor) miss this point between cause and correlation. Perhaps this is all you are doing in your emphasis on cause. But, the reality is that it is enough for most people to just know that there is an inverse relationship between price and demand and not get so bogged down with what is causing what in most cases. The same is true with the issue of climate. Most scientist have shown or demanstrated a correlation between CO2 (a greenhouse Gas) and the wraming of the planet over time. It is also pretty well established that Fossil Fuels are the cause of increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. The fact is humans are responsible for increasing levels of CO2 in the atmosphere and there are significant changes in planetary conditions that have correlated with these rising levels. Now to the question of what we should do about it. You suggest efficiency (carbon). Since I have training in economics, I can appreciate the emphasis on efficiency. The market always rewards efficiency. But we should always remember that efficiency gains don't always lead to desired outcomes. The ideology of efficiency upheld by economists has many detrimental effects. Sometimes efficiency gains do not lead to the panacea that are economic models predict. This was addressed long ago by British economist William Stanley Jevons , in The Coal Question; An Inquiry concerning the Progress of the Nation, and the Probable Exhaustion of our Coalmines (1865) Jevons was studying the exhaustion of coal in Britain fueling their economy. Many economists and British politicains suggested that Britain had nothing to worry about because efficiency gains in coal engines would reduce demand (actually, the question was solved through imports of coal and exports of manufacturing needs). What Jevons pointed out that the efficiency gains in Coal engines actually led to greater absolute amounts of coal being used. As the efficiency coal engines increased even more and bigger manufacturing plants were built raisng the absolute amount of coal being used. The same is true in most cases of the economy. Efficiency is something to look at but we can't lose focus of absolute numbers. The focus for CO2 emmisions has to remain on absolute amounts of CO2 being released into the atmosphere and this meanss we have to be concerned with absolute amounts of Fossil fuels being burned ahead of efficiency numbers. If the number quoted for carbon efficiency is not correlated with reduced amounts of Fossil fuels being burned than it is a useless figure for tackling the question of absolute CO2 emissions.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#68)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 07:46:22 AM EST
    BT, Now to some some specifics,
    Not only is there vast failure to comply by the countries that have signed on, but too many countries are exempt. All an artificial cut in emissions will do is shift the pollution from countries who are signatories to countries who are exempt.
    There are ways of enforcing treaties. There just needs to be the will behind it. The US is a large part of that will. Kyote may not be perfect, but to pull out of the discussion based on percieved unfainess is childish to say the least. There is an Art to negotition. It would be nice if we had individuals in power who were practiced in this art instead of taking their ball and going home.
    We're probablly never going to see a reduction in the amount of emissions used for agriculture, unless population levels drop off a significant amount. Starvation is too high a price to pay for reducing emissions.
    There are ways, incentives, to reduce emissions in agriculture that would also reduce populations levels around the world. The best and most obvious way is to create incentives for the rebuilding of rural communities and reverse the flow or migration to urban areas around the world. Reducing the input of fossil fuels in agriculture would require a much greater input of human labor for fertilizer (compost), planting and harvesting. This would help alleviate population as well as address the use of fossil fuels in agriculture. It takes imagination and it would mean a deemphasis on cheap consumer goods as the cheap labor pool in cities around the world begin to dry up, but this would also be beneficial for CO2 emissions in manufacturing.
    Plus industry would seek out cleaner alternatives, because they are ultimatly more efficient. Pollution = waste = loss of product. That simple equation is enough to ensure R&D continues.
    As long as industry does not bear the full cost of thier emissions and pollution, it will continue to pass this loss onto the rest of society in its pursuit for profits. This is the only equation that matters in economics for industries. Profits = Revenues minus costs. The full cost for pollution and specifically for co2 emissions is never a part of this equation. The cost is for the rest of society to bear.
    Doing a bit of reality checking, the only way that we are going to see cutbacks in emissions is if they do not harm the economy.
    You are right if we continue to let business and corporations make these decisions. Market incentives are one way to approach this. Regulations are another. Putting limits on CO2 emissions for industries can go a long way towards solving the problem. Offering incentives to business can also. There is no reason to take either tool off the table unless you are the businessperson who is seeking profit and it is you making the decision. This is the reality, true. Business is in charge and has been for a long time. The hope is we convince business to regulate itself or support gov'ts to regulate their industries for the benefit of their children. The current econoomy can be harmed, but there is no reason to believe, except it is the only life we know, that the next economy might be more beneficial to humanity. Perhaps, your and my children won't have to sit in an office all day in front of a terminal and can actually use their minds and bodies together to solve problems in a field of cucumbers, carrots and potatoes while tending chickens and dairy cattle, instead -without worrying how they are going to make their payments to the bank in the city with several offices full of cubicles with terminals connected to a cyborgs on cell phones. Sounds like paradise to me.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Thu Aug 24, 2006 at 10:01:01 AM EST
    Peaches:
    Sounds like paradise to me.
    Me also. :-)