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Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead

By Jeralyn, Section Off Topic
Posted on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 12:33:09 PM EST
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The Comair commuter plane that crashed in Kentucky this morning killing 49 people, all but the pilot, reportedly took off on the wrong runway, one too short for commercial planes.

The crash was the country's worst domestic airplane accident in nearly six years.

How tragic. Our condolences go to the families of the victims.

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    • Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead | 21 comments (21 topical)
    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#1)
    by Slado on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 01:52:30 PM EST
    As a pilot who lives in Southern Indiana I talked with people this morning about this airport and before the media started to report this a pilot asked me If I'd ever flown out of there. I said no and he said to me, "You know I bet they used the wrong runway, it's really hard to know which one your on unless you've been there before or someone in the tower reminds you". The jist of this is that this was a mistake that any pilot could have made. When you're in a Cesnna 172 or most general aviation aircraft it wouldn't matter for getting off the ground but in a fully loaded jet this was disaterous. I hope that the FAA uses this incident to improve runway markings at all airports . When you taxi and hold in Lexington there are two runways very close together 22 and 26. The numbers on a runway signify their trajectory in terms of a 360 degree circle. So 22 means you take off at 220 degrees and 26 means you take off at 260 degrees. When you are siting on a runway you can't see the big letters that are at the beginning and there are only small signs to tell you where to go. Obviously the lines and width usually make it easy to differentiate between taxi ways and runways but if you look at a picture of the airport both runways start very close to eachother. Also this pilot told me at Lexington a 22 with an arrow points towards 22 meaning you are supposed to keep going past 26 runway and on to 22 but it can be misconstrued as being on 22. More then likely the pilot didn't realize what was happening until he was already full throttle. The plane with 50 people and baggage was more then likely fully loaded. Which means it would take a long time to get to its first rotation speed which is when the pilot first pulls on the yoke to get the wings level. Once he was commited to taking off he couldn't stop even if he wanted to. Airplanes like no other trasnportation device leave little room for error. Even if you plan everything properly you can still have something terrible happen. I would be willing to bet the FAA passes new guidelines on ground markings and I hope all politicians work make this happen. Unfortunatley it takes tragedies like this to make something obvious apparent.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#2)
    by Slado on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 01:52:58 PM EST
    As a pilot who lives in Southern Indiana I talked with people this morning about this airport and before the media started to report this a pilot asked me If I'd ever flown out of there. I said no and he said to me, "You know I bet they used the wrong runway, it's really hard to know which one your on unless you've been there before or someone in the tower reminds you". The jist of this is that this was a mistake that any pilot could have made. When you're in a Cesnna 172 or most general aviation aircraft it wouldn't matter for getting off the ground but in a fully loaded jet this was disaterous. I hope that the FAA uses this incident to improve runway markings at all airports . When you taxi and hold in Lexington there are two runways very close together 22 and 26. The numbers on a runway signify their trajectory in terms of a 360 degree circle. So 22 means you take off at 220 degrees and 26 means you take off at 260 degrees. When you are siting on a runway you can't see the big letters that are at the beginning and there are only small signs to tell you where to go. Obviously the lines and width usually make it easy to differentiate between taxi ways and runways but if you look at a picture of the airport both runways start very close to eachother. Also this pilot told me at Lexington a 22 with an arrow points towards 22 meaning you are supposed to keep going past 26 runway and on to 22 but it can be misconstrued as being on 22. More then likely the pilot didn't realize what was happening until he was already full throttle. The plane with 50 people and baggage was more then likely fully loaded. Which means it would take a long time to get to its first rotation speed which is when the pilot first pulls on the yoke to get the wings level. Once he was commited to taking off he couldn't stop even if he wanted to. Airplanes like no other trasnportation device leave little room for error. Even if you plan everything properly you can still have something terrible happen. I would be willing to bet the FAA passes new guidelines on ground markings and I hope all politicians work make this happen. Unfortunatley it takes tragedies like this to make something obvious apparent.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#3)
    by Rich on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 03:10:47 PM EST
    The news reportsb don't mention that Comair is part of Delta., whose slogan is the ironic (in this case) "we love to fly and it shows".

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#4)
    by Sailor on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 03:42:15 PM EST
    Sheet, the CRJ-200 has a minimum of 5000 ft for landing! It's a controlled field, (including ground), the runway he supposedly took off from is 1/2 the width of the 7000 ft runway (75 v 150) and I'm not sure he could have made it into the air to crash within a mile of the runway on a 90 deg day at a 1000 ASL field. And I can't believe ground control and tower would have let him take off from the wrong runway. Also, pilots of commercial aircraft are not supposed to fly in/out of unfamiliar airports; Until you know the route you fly right seat. According to FAA INFORMATION EFFECTIVE 03 AUGUST 2006 Plus runway 8/26 (the short one) is "Surface: asphalt/concrete, in poor condition" with a note that the concrete is severely cracked. 4/22 is "Surface: asphalt/grooved, in good condition" I don't think it's possible for a competent pilot who did his flight planning properly and studied his AIM, STAR and DP plates would have made this mistake. The sheer bumpiness would have warned him a throttle up. And like I said earlier, given the condidtions I don't think the A/C could have even made it into the air in 3500 ft. Here's a link to the runway diagram. (Not to scale.) Here's a VFR sectional chart portion showing the field. Here is a google map of the field. I seriously doubt he could have used the wrong runway for all of the above reasons (plus, the controllers witnessed it, wouldn't they know?)

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#5)
    by Sailor on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 04:01:34 PM EST
    Some news reports say that there were damaged trees at the end of the short runway, but in light (no pun intended) of the fact that the short runway isn't lighted and the long runway is and he took off at 6:07 am (about an hour before sunrise) I still don't see how a pilot could make a mistake like this. I don't think a GA pilot could do this, much less a pro.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#6)
    by Punchy on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 04:10:20 PM EST
    Sailor-- They've already concluded it took off on the wrong runway....so that variable is no longer a variable. The damaged trees would be a good indicator that it wasn't very high after 3.5K feet of takeoff length...

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 04:55:28 PM EST
    The crash was the country's worst domestic airplane accident in nearly six years.
    Wasn't there an American Airlines A300 that went down in Queens in Nov 2001? I seem to remember that that one killed over 260. It was on the way to the Dominican Republic but crashed shortly after takeoff from JKF. I guess since it was an international flight one could say it wasn't "domestic" but a US airliner crashed in the US after leaving a US airport -- that says domestic to me. But who expects reports to report facts anymore.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 05:07:38 PM EST
    Brewer - "Facts" regarding airline crashes are never very accurate, if for no other reason than the press is hopelessly ignorant about most things, and aviation tops the list. Sailor - Somehow 6:07 doesn't seem to be an hour before sunrise. Have you checked sunrise time? Slado - This one doesn't make a lot of sense. If he is still airborne a mile after wheels up, I can't see a crash unless there are other factors. I mean that's 8500'... I mean when he pulled back on the yoke, it will either fly, or it won't. Is there a hill? Mountain? Whatever that would make him turn? If he has any altitude at all why didn't he just hang it in the air and slowly gain altitude?

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#9)
    by Sailor on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 05:10:24 PM EST
    The plane, a 50-seat Canadair CRJ100, used runway 26, the shorter of two runways at the airport, based on evidence from the crash and the plane's flight data recorder, said Debbie Hersman of the National Transportation Safety Board.
    Punchy, I never rely on initial reports, but this seems conclusive:
    The plane, a 50-seat Canadair CRJ100, used runway 26, the shorter of two runways at the airport, based on evidence from the crash and the plane's flight data recorder, said Debbie Hersman of the National Transportation Safety Board.
    I have never heard of the NTSB making a conclusion so quick. Can you tell that it is unimaginable to me that two pro pilots took off on the unlighted runway, after getting clearance from ground and tower!? That plane shouldn't even get off before 4500 feet.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#10)
    by Sailor on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 05:23:51 PM EST
    Lexington, Kentucky, Date Today Sunrise 07:03

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#11)
    by scribe on Sun Aug 27, 2006 at 05:55:53 PM EST
    A couple comments: My condolences to the families. Brewer, the "nearly six years" comment was a little long timewise and probably should have been "nearly five years"; the last "major" crash in the US was the outbound-from-JFK-to-the-Dominican crash in December 2001. If I recall correctly, that one came from excessive wake turbulence from another A/C combined with radical control inputs (i.e., jerking the wheel) which ripped the (mostly graphite composite) tail off. FWIW, one not in the aviation community would likely have a hard time believing some of the errors and outright stupidity that happen - usually with only sweaty brows or dirty looks to show for it. Think of all the stupid drivers and dangerous driving maneuvers one encounters every day and add 'em up. Assume pilots are ten thousand times more careful (probably even more than that) than car drivers. Divide the number you came up with by ten thousand, and you still come to a huge number of dicey situations. I'm not a pilot, but I worked litigating a GA plane crash case a few years ago. 2 controllers were working the same sector and, well, they both thought the other was controlling the crash plane, resulting in their both ignoring radar warnings and sending none by radio. The ATC tape was, uh, chilling as one could hear their realization of what had happened in their voices. People make mistakes. It's IMHO entirely conceivable the pilots erred in the early morning twilight, the tower didn't notice they were on the wrong runway, and no one knew until it was too late to do anything but for the pilots to try to fly out of it. It's not for nothing that it's said in many communities "[safety] regulations are written in blood".

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#12)
    by eric on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 08:00:27 AM EST
    More then likely the pilot didn't realize what was happening until he was already full throttle. Or, maybe he could have looked at his compass. He would be lined up wrong, and that would be obvious.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#13)
    by nolo on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 10:23:22 AM EST
    The aviation folks I've talked to who are familiar with the airport and the recent construction that's gone on there aren't actually surprised that the pilot could get confused about the runways. Look at the photos and maps cnn.com has, and it seems like it could easily happen. What they don't understand is how the crew decided to complete a takeoff roll on a runway that wasn't lit. The only lights on the 3500 foot runway past the transitional markers showing where the 7000 foot runway crossed.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#14)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 11:15:56 AM EST
    Eric, Obviously if he'd looked at his compass it would have told him he was pointing in the wrong direction. However he was probably holding short of both runways. Which would means that his compass said 18 or 32 meaning he was pointing in a direction that wouldn't tell him anything. Then like almost all airline pilots he did a rolling takeoff. It's a horrible mistake that shouldn't happen. But if you aren't paying attention and are going thorugh the motions it "could" happen because you've missed all the signs. I stated earlier that a pilot that has flown at this airport told me before he had heard the news that the pilot had probably used the wrong runway and it was hard to tell which runway was which. As for the crash happening 1 mile away, my theory is he never reached his climb speed but did get going fast enough to pull the plane up off the runway...mabey 10 to 50ft... If you've ever flown you learn that there are 4 forces...lift, weight, drag and thrust. When all forces are equal you maintain level flight, slightly less, more etc.. you dive or climb. He probably got going fast enough to climb slightly ; he should have tried to drop his flaps to generate extra lift and get just high enough to clear the trees so he could level out and speed up and climb out normaly. Maybe he did that and then just clipped the trees. Who knows. Sailor I know that one wants to believe humans can't make stupid mistakes but experience tells us otherwise. This was a horrible completely avoidable mistake but someone made it because ultimately it comes down to making the right decision and he made the wrong one. What other reason do you want to believe?

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 11:17:31 AM EST
    nolo - Interesting point, if true. But things happen fast, and it may have been that when the pilots knew they were on the wrong runway, they were past the point at which they could have stopped without running off the end. More likely there was confusion, and the decision was made for them.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#16)
    by nolo on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 11:29:52 AM EST
    Slado, some of the AP wire reports I saw earlier today said there were ground scars at the end of Runway 26, indicating the pilot rotated hard. As for the lights, the NTSB announced today that they were not operational, which is exactly what I was hearing from my pilot friends.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#17)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 12:58:12 PM EST
    Nolo, Hadn't seen that. He may have firgured it out halfway down the runway and waited to the last moment to yank on the yoke. Who knows, we're deciphering what propbably took 30 seconds to happen from start to finish. As for lights it's not as simple as you'd think to deciphere exactly where you are. Plus this was just before sunrise so the lights wouldn't make as big a difference as they would well after sunset. Unless this guy was on a suicide mission he simply screwed up.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#18)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 01:44:10 PM EST
    Plus this was just before sunrise
    an hour before. The correct runway (as I linked to before) had REIL strobes, HI runway edge lights and centerline lights. How one can mistake that for darkness I'll never know. And it wasn't one person's mistake, he had a co-pilot and tower controller. I still don't see how he got off the ground at all. He shouldn't have been able to hit V1 until at least 4500 ft with max load. And the rumble of cracked concrete v. grooved asphalt should have worken someone up. If he didn't have V1 with the end of the runway in sight they should have slammed back full rev, dumped the flaps and applied full brakes. Going off the end of the runway is preferable to falling out of ground effect. Now if he doing an intersection takeoff, which most passenger companies don't allow, the mistake was easier to understand, but still unbelievable stupid. Slado, it's not that I don't believe it, it's that I find it unbelieveable;-)

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#19)
    by scribe on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 01:55:12 PM EST
    We'll ultimately find out what the flight crew did, when the NTSB cracks open the black box and discloses the control inputs. My best guess is the crew figured out "error" somewhere down the runway and tried to fly out of it, but couldn't.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#20)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 02:00:39 PM EST
    he should have tried to drop his flaps to generate extra lift
    commercial planes of that size are supposed to calc all TO speeds and flap setting for every TO (based on load, temp, elevation ... etc.) Chances are more flaps would have had a net effect of more drag. correction to the above comment: I meant V2 at 4500 ft. V1 shouldn't be 1000 ft before that. CRJ100 V1= 120 Knots Vr (Rotate)=125 Knots V2=133 Knots It's amazing a pilot was the only survivor; they're always the first ones to the scene of the accident.

    Re: Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead (none / 0) (#21)
    by Che's Lounge on Mon Aug 28, 2006 at 07:28:05 PM EST
    Very informative posts. I'm not too optimistic about the pilot (co-pilot?). If he is in the condition I think he is, he cannot talk and his chances are very slim. He was in there burning for several minutes before they got him out. Also the cop who pulled him out was burned pretty bad on his arms. The CVR/FDR will hopefully tell us why they took the wrong runway.

    Kentucky Plane Used Wrong Runway, 49 Dead | 21 comments (21 topical)