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Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb

By Jeralyn, Section War on Terror
Posted on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 07:55:57 PM EST
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I just got back from a great dinner in Manhattan and turned on the tv. The Path to 9/11 was over but a Nightline special was on. It blasted American farmers' opposition to federal attempts to regulate the sale of ammonium nitrate. It was an incredibly misinformed piece of journalism.

Ammonium nitrate is not a bomb. It can be a bomb when it's mixed with fuel oil or some other such substance. The OKC bomb was a mixture of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil. It was the fuel oil portion that created the confusion for the Government -- where did it come from? They didn't arrive at a conclusion until the eve of trial. The ammonium nitrate was not a puzzle. By itself, it is not a bomb. Didn't anyone see Rent?

Its ANFO that is dangerous -- ammonium nitrate and fuel oil -- not ammonium nitrate by itself.

Let's stop the fear mongering -- and let the farmers alone.

Update: Not to be catty, but what was Laura Bush thinking when she put on her outfit to accompany her husband on his 9/11 rounds? She couldn't even wear a suit? Did she really think golf club or teenage circle club attire would be appropriate so long as it was black? From the neck down, she looked like an ad for a college co-ed in Seventeen magazine or the Villager clothing company. Totally inappropriate.

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    Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb | 32 comments (32 topical)
    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#1)
    by cpinva on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 10:12:44 PM EST
    let's not leave out those terrorist truckers! after all, the "fuel oil" we're talking about is No. 2 fuel oil, more commonly known as diesel. mix some fertilizer (ammonium nitrate) with it, and you have yourself a nifty, cheap bomb. that's kind of a problem with lots of things, they're what we call "dual use", either by themselves, or in combination with something else. as ilearned in chemistry class, almost every chemical has multiple uses, good and bad, depending on who's hands their in. the bleach you use to whiten your whites in the wash can, when mixed with other chemicals, release clouds of toxic chlorine gas. my point, and i do have one, is that, barring going medieval, that's just a hazard we have to be willing to live with. we need to be vigilant certainly, but unless we want the wheels of the economy to fall off completely, we just can't get rid of every possible danger. anyone who truly thinks otherwise needs serious help.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#2)
    by chuckj on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 10:12:44 PM EST
    I agree leave the farmers alone. But, amonium nitrate is explosive by itself. It needs heat and pressure to detonate, as with any high explosive. The fuel oil makes it more sensitive and easier to explode, but it's not needed. Look up the Texas City explosion. It was pure amonium nitrate, no other ingredient. I know about explosives because I was an Army engineer for for 3 years and was demolition trained at Fort Leonard Wood.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#3)
    by pax on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 10:12:44 PM EST
    I vote for laura as the worst dressed, most do nothing first lady of all time.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#4)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Mon Sep 11, 2006 at 10:37:53 PM EST
    "Totally inappropriate." Quit picking on Pickles. Suits make her ass look big. Besides she's a republican and they can wear whatever the hell they want. Just ask Dick Cheney. He offered to loan her his olive hooded parka, but it was too hot.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#9)
    by roy on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 06:49:36 AM EST
    Anyone else think it's funny to see the Right clamp down on things that might become weapons, while still being 2nd Amendment boosters? We've a right to keep & bear arms, but not a right to keep not-quite-arms? Farmers catch guff over fertilizer, and a bunch of cell phones gets some Arabic kids arrested. Meanwhile, my pasty white self will be driving across five states with a trunk full of guns and ammunition, and if the cops hassle me they'll have the NRA up their butts.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#10)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 07:19:46 AM EST
    Let's stop the fear mongering No...let's just turn our heads and look the other way and wait for the next car/truck bomb and then we can all blame GW for not doing anything! There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with checking out who is buying this stuff & why. You call it fear mongering....the rest of us call it "common sense"! (something the left is completely void of)

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#20)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 08:39:39 PM EST
    Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb
    Neither is knowledge. And neither is chemistry. And neither is the ability to learn. BB: You call it fear mongering....the rest of us call it "common sense"! (something the left is completely void of) BB, what you call common sense is plain old ignorance and stupidity. Tell me - would you have knowledge, or chemistry, or the ability to learn regulated or outlawed by a cowardly administration too, out of your childish fears??? It's long past time for you to start using your head, BB... and stop making idiotic statements. You are giving the people you want in power a bad name, and wrecking their chances. ---edger

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#21)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 08:39:39 PM EST
    but fuel oil means money for OPEC and friends, so how dare anybody consider restricting it!

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#22)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Sep 12, 2006 at 08:39:39 PM EST
    "But, ammonium nitrate is explosive by itself. It needs heat and pressure to detonate" I believe it takes a good hard thump to detonate ANFO. About 30 years ago I helped my dad blow stumps with fertilizer. We used a partial stick of dynamite and a electric blasting cap to make the big boom. I suspect you need a license to buy dynamite and caps.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#23)
    by Aaron on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 12:22:58 AM EST
    Strict regulations proposed for nine explosive chemicals Federal government moves to tightly regulate bomb-making chemicals Not to put a damper on your ammonium nitrate party, but ammonium nitrate may be relatively harmless in its powdered form, but farmers most often use anhydrous ammonia(NH3) which itself is used to create ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3). I'm very familiar with anhydrous ammonia, having worked with it as a fertilizer in farming, and also as a coolant for a dairy. My father initially taught me about this stuff, and he made it very clear that anhydrous was nothing to play with. He himself knew of several farmers who had been asphyxiated when they opened up a tank to check something and the fumes overcame them. Others who had been horrifically burned when they were careless with the substance. When I was a kid, if my father was checking the anhydrous sprayer, he would always scream at me if I came anywhere near. I think they downplay the danger of anhydrous because it is so commonly used as a cheap refrigerant, and you can find it all over the Midwest sitting by the roadside in tanks. Methamphetamine cookers steal it since using it is one of the simplest ways to produce the drug. At the dairy , occasionally we had anhydrous leaks. The danger is that the gas begins to builds up in an area, and people don't notice because it's so gradual. Also "Repeated exposure to ammonia lowers the sensitivity to the smell of the gas: normally the odour is detectable at concentrations of less than 0.5 ppm, but desensitized individuals may not detect it even at concentrations of 100 ppm. " So you can be exposed to high levels and not even notice. More than once the fire department showed up wearing hazmat suits and breathing apparatus when the anhydrous alarms would go off. If you were to ever get sprayed with the liquid, forget it, it's over, and if you inhaled enough of it, there's no reviving you. Seriously scary stuff. Handling Anhydrous Ammonia Emergencies

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#25)
    by soccerdad on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 08:27:25 AM EST
    So the admin wants to limit the sale of Ammonium Nitrate but did nothing to protect the stock piles of explosives in Iraq allowing them to fall into the insurgents hands. Figures. Now if they were really interested in protecting us they would increase security at chemical and nuke plants. But they aren't. That would cost the companies money. They are only interested in those actions which will not cost their corporate sponsors money whenever possible and which will cause the requiste amount of fear and which will give them another avenue to collect more data on average citizens. Buts fascists like ppj and BB are all fine with that since Bush is their guy and can do no wrong.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#26)
    by Sailor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 08:34:17 AM EST
    How dare us 'restrict' the right for these guys to obtain bomb making materials!!! How dare us!!!
    by 'these guys' I guess bb means farmers, who would be required to register w/ the gov't and undergo background checks. Pretty intrusive, especially when farmers lose their ability to put food on their family due to a misspent youth. Many, many materials can be used for bombs; diesel fuel, magnesium shavings and an oxygen tank can make a conflagration you wouldn't beleive ... or be able to extinguish. This is just more handwaving and bedwetting by the feds who have better things to spend their time and our $$ on, like actual explosives detection and cargo inspections.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:17:02 AM EST
    BB, by the way, for anyone wondering, is a shill for the Democratic Party. He's paid to come here and make the right wing look as dumb and brainwashed as possible. His whole shtick is a politicking ploy. ;-)

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#11)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    Anyone else think it's funny to see the Right clamp down on things that might become weapons, while still being 2nd Amendment boosters? We've a right to keep & bear arms, but not a right to keep not-quite-arms?
    The Second Amendment is silent on the question of whether you get to have ammonium nitrate. It has rather more to say about "arms." This is, of course, obvious.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#12)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    Some farmers use anhydrous ammonia. Comes in trailer tanks, very high centers, easy to overturn. Nasty stuff. You can't mix it with fuel oil, but you can release it as a gas. How many people already know the basics of Molotov cocktails, without ever making one? These people really need to read up on improvised explosives and weapons.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#13)
    by Punchy on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    Hey, I just read that toothpaste and shampoo can be made into explosives. Lord, I hope the Feds start monitoring that stuff, too. Wouldn't want to die from a CrestBomb...

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#14)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    I didn't see the piece, but your argument seems a bit disingenious. Ammonium NItrate might not be expslosive, but as one of the key ingredient of ANFO its distribution deserves some scrutiny, especially since fuel oil is so readily available. It's the old "Guns don't kill people, people do" argument. What's next, you want uranium ore sold at Costco?

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#15)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    As a chemical engineer who worked in the explosives industry for ten years, I agree with what chuckj said above. It is absolutely not necessary to mix ammonium nitrate with fuel oil to make it an explosive. It is more sensitive and more powerful if you do so, but it will explode on its own with a sufficiently powerful booster charge to set it off. On the Texas City disaster, it is my understanding that the AN in this case was coated with wax. This increased its sensitivity. Needless to say, wax coating is never done anymore.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#16)
    by Pol on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    Go ahead -- be catty, Jeralyn. We'll let you...

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#17)
    by rdandrea on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    Chuckj, Ammonium nitrate is just an oxidizer. It still needs some sort of fuel to be explosive. According to Wikipedia, the ammonium nitrate on board the Grandcamp (the first ship that blew up) was "mixed with clay, petrolatum, rosin and paraffin to avoid moisture caking." When the fire got the latter three ingredients, all quite flammable on their own, hot enough to melt, it was indeed an ANFO bomb that blew up Texas City. The second ship that exploded, the High Flyer, contained both ammonium nitrate and sulfur.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb
    Neither is knowledge. And neither is chemistry. And neither is the ability to learn. BB: You call it fear mongering....the rest of us call it "common sense"! (something the left is completely void of) BB, what you call common sense is plain old ignorance and stupidity. Tell me - would you have knowledge, or chemistry, or the ability to learn regulated or outlawed by a cowardly administration too, out of your childish fears??? It's long past time for you to start using your head, BB... and stop making idiotic statements. You are giving the people you want in power a bad name, and wrecking their chances.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#19)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    Sure, ANFO is explosive. Lets see you try to detonate it with household chemicals. Try buying blasting caps, you'll get a good looking over. And nitrates are found a LOT of other places. Go to the drug store, buy an "instant cold pack". It's just water and ammonium nitrate.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#27)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 10:32:55 AM EST
    A gun also cannot kill people without bullets ... what is your point? If people have to register & go through a background check to buy a gun ... which can kill only a few people if you also get bullets, I don't see a problem require the same for ammonium nitrate, which can kill a lot more people if combined with fuel oil .. which is a lot easier to get than bullets. People here lost all common sense.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 11:21:46 AM EST
    If people have to register & go through a background check to buy a gun ... which can kill only a few people if you also get bullets, I don't see a problem require the same for ammonium nitrate, which can kill a lot more people if combined with fuel oil .. which is a lot easier to get than bullets. People here lost all common sense.
    yep no difference between a gun and a bag of fertilizer. Anybody who buys fuel oil should go through the same process right. maybe we should extend it to those who buy gasoline, compressed air cylinders, etc. Oh yeah dont forget all those that drive tyrucks because you will need a truck to haul enough fertilizer to the scene to do an appropiate good job. Hell lets be done with it, lets implant chips in everyone so that they know our every move. But on the other hand lets not bother to protect chemical and nuke plants, especially those near populated areas. Oh the stupidity.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#5)
    by ding7777 on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 01:14:52 PM EST
    On Monday, in Shanksville, PA, she was walking through a pasture in the rain - without an umbrella. A pantsuit (and sensible shoes) was appropriate for the ceremony location.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#6)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 01:14:52 PM EST
    TL: re ABC and journalism - their last shred of credibility as a journalistic enterprise left with Ted Koppel. (And the first did, when they moved news under the Entertainment division, 15 or so years ago.) re: catty. It's ok; they did worse to Hillary and any other Dem woman one can think of. Plus, she dresses badly. I'm suspecting she's probably half-whacked anyway - she'd have to be to deal with living in that household. Chuckj: TL's right on the science; you need to go back and re-read your 5-34. And, as best as anyone could reconstruct, Texas City was started as a dust explosion, with the large part of that event being secondaries.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 01:14:52 PM EST
    That's what you get for getting your "facts" from a "docudrama". The objections came not from the farmers but the manufacturers. The proposed rules would have required the manufacturers to add chemical IDs to the ammonium nitrate at the plant to facilitate tracing the manufacturer and plant. The manufacturers, not the farmers, fearing civil suits from the victims of an ammonium nitrate bomb, were the ones who objected.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 01:14:52 PM EST
    The farmers should be left alone...like allergy sufferers should be left alone. If they can regulate the sale of Sudafed...they can regulate anything. The govt. is obviously no fan of freedom...so I'm no fan of theirs.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#31)
    by Sailor on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 01:43:17 PM EST
    Listen to me now & understand me later..I am not a Bush fan...I do however stand behind the president...no matter who he is!!!
    Then you have all the elements of a fool. Anyone who supports a liar who has caused 26,000 American casualties for a lie is not worthy of respect. Question authority, first, last and always, Question authority ... it's the American way.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#35)
    by chuckj on Wed Sep 13, 2006 at 08:57:13 PM EST
    Chuckj: TL's right on the science; you need to go back and re-read your 5-34. And, as best as anyone could reconstruct, Texas City was started as a dust explosion, with the large part of that event being secondaries.
    Anonymous, you need to go back and check your chemistry book. AN is an explosive just by itself. As for Texas city, dust explosion??? You better check you history books or look it up on the internet. It was a ship full of AN that caught on fire. The heat and pressure built up and it exploded, knocking two planes out of the sky and causing a tidal wave. Read about it here: http://www.local1259iaff.org/disaster.html

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#36)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Sep 14, 2006 at 08:39:00 AM EST
    Chuckj: I would ask you to reference any scientific literature that supports you claim that AN is an explosive. The problem with your claim is that this concept that AN is an explosive is based on the equivalent of urban legend or unrealistic so-called "test" conditions. FACT: under very (I emphasize VERY) specific conditions you can cause AN to detonate. This does not make this any more of an explosive then gasoline or propane. Material with a finite UEL / LEL that are co-dependant upon other environmental factors to cause detonation (not deflagration) is simply not an explosive. And the article you reference is a historical account not a forensic report...there was no post blast investigation performed. The devil is in the details --- it was a RARE occurrence all of the requisite factors aligned. There are millions of tons of AN moved every year - if this stuff is so hazardous why do you have to draw upon an event that occurred in 1947 to illustrate is sensitivity and an "explosive"? And let us not forget the benign TNT - RE.

    Re: Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Sat Sep 16, 2006 at 04:20:32 PM EST
    AN is an explosive just by itself.
    Yeeees, but it is so insensitive it takes a larger explosion or 500+ degrees to set it off. BTW, chuckles' link points out how safe NA is and the explosions that occurred were when combined with nitric acid during manufacturing of explosives or when combined with sulfuric acid or when a conflagration was already present. NA cannot be exploded without extreme heat and/or pressure ... but no doubt all these bedwetters are willing to forego gasoline, oxygen, diesel fuel, magnesium, and/or aluminum if they have ever been arrested or visited a mental health pro, or have a 'questionable' family background, or have traveled outside of the US, or if their neighbor ever had reservations about them.

    Ammonium Nitrate is Not a Bomb | 32 comments (32 topical)