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by TChris

Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down!

Unless you're a senator. If you're in the Senate, you might want to build a fence around the country -- or at least the southern half of the country (or at least 700 miles of the southern border), despite the easier time terrorists would have crossing the northern border. Maybe Robert Frost didn't know any senators.

The idea of building a ridiculously expensive and environmentally harmful 700 mile fence is problematic. Okay, let's be plain: it's just stupid. The concept nonetheless enjoys support among elected officials of both parties. Fortunately, as with the proposed legislation concerning the interrogation and trial of terror suspects, it is Republican squabbling that has so far saved us from a stupid idea.

Some Senate Republicans want to follow the House proposal to build the fence, while others (including Larry Craig and Arlen Specter) prefer the president's "comprehensive" approach that would build a fence while feeding "guest workers" to companies that presently hire undocumented aliens. The Senate debate begins today. Republicans hope to fashion some sort of compromise so they can tell voters who have been riled up by Lou Dobbs that they've averted a crisis.

On the Democratic side:

[Sen. Diane] Feinstein said she supports the fencing because "the border is a sieve." She also said that Democrats are not going to let Republicans best them politically on this issue. "This is all meant to box Democrats into voting no," she said. "And we're not going to fall for it."

That'll show 'em. Support a stupid plan to preempt complaints that Democrats are "soft on illegals." This is the same reasoning that may cause some Democrats to sell out the Constitution by voting to give the president the power to subject tortured detainees to unfair trials or the power to wiretap Americans at will.

Get a spine, Sen. Feinstein.

Meanwhile, fence supporters seem to have forgotten that Native American tribal reservations are, in effect, sovereign nations, and that the U.S. government may not have the power to run a fence through the back yards of reservation inhabitants. It turns out that the Tohono O'odham Indian territory is in the path of the proposed fence, in an area frequently traveled by undocumented entrants.

Tribal members, however, fearing the symbolism of a solid wall and concern about the free range of deer, wild horses, coyotes, jackrabbits and other animals they regard as kin, said they would fight the kind of steel-plated fencing that Congress had in mind and that has slackened the crossing flow in previous hot spots like San Diego.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down!

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      Display: Sort:
      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#2)
      by jimakaPPJ on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 01:03:12 PM EST
      From the post:
      Maybe Robert Frost didn't know any senators.
      More likely he didn't know 10 to 12 million illegal aliens pouring through from Mexico.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#4)
      by Sailor on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 01:08:16 PM EST
      Building a wall around teh US is about as smart as building a moat around baghdad ... oh, wait a minute ...

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#6)
      by jimakaPPJ on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 02:12:21 PM EST
      Sailor - It isn't a fence around the US, just along certain high traffic areas... But don't let facts get in the way.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#8)
      by krazycory on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 04:20:28 PM EST
      i think they will start carrying wire cutters

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#1)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 04:20:29 PM EST
      Border controls of that kind are unecessary. If you want to end most illegal immigration, and encourage most illegal immigrants to return home, it's simple: Make it illegal for businesses to hire anyone without a national ID card, and then give all citizens a counterfeit-proof, biometric national ID card. Presto! Without arresting anyone (except for corporation presidents who ignore the law), the illegal immigration problem will be solved.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#3)
      by kdog on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 04:20:29 PM EST
      Makes me think of the "gated communities" that are popping up all over that I'd never dream of living in. The ones that are meant to keep "others" out, but end up fencing you in.
      Oh, give me land, lots of land under starry skies above, Don't fence me in Let me ride through the wide open country that I love, Don't fence me in
      - Cole Porter

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#5)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 04:20:29 PM EST
      the fence, yeah a really stupid idea. no surprise, idiots usually do stupid stuff. but; what about the tunnels, will the fences go as deep as they do high?

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#7)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 04:20:29 PM EST
      There is only one reason people get fanatical about "security". They are fanatically "insecure". Quaking, terrified, cringing, screaming little bedwetters who see whole world as threatening. They need their mommies and their blankies. ---edger

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#9)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 06:38:09 PM EST
      The more important issue is Overpopulation and the problems that result therefrom. Congress can and will make it easy for those now considered "illegal" to become quasi-legal, and they can come up with all kinds of schemes to assist their corporate paymasters in making sure they have a plentiful supply of cheap, docile labor. By focusing on the problems (and associated costs) of Overpopulation, at least there might be "some" pressure on Congress to adopt the motto: "Take Care of U.S. CITIZENS First".

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#10)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 06:57:30 PM EST
      Well, as a matter of politics and policy I rather agree with TChris, but as for Robert Frost . . . well, the poem is rather more ambivilent about wals than the quoted excerpt suggests. It also says, "Good fences make good neighbors"

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#11)
      by jimakaPPJ on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 07:26:15 PM EST
      edger - Ah, the old "bedwetter" cry. I find it funny that you are concerned that people actually want a bit of security in their life. That you may not is noted, but not believed. I think you are just jealous.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#12)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Sep 20, 2006 at 08:45:41 PM EST
      What is so wrong about protecting one's border with a fence? Anyone? I sense lots of heat and zero light here. The whole point of sovereignty is to be able to protect one's citizens from those outside the scope of the nation itself. What are borders but fences by another name? Besides, if Mexico would actually act responsibly for its own citizens, the U.S. would not be forced to act in its place. As a liberal (quite, just ask Jimaka!), I am all for the idea of a fence. It helps establish, in no uncertain terms, what a border is all about. Something most liberals seem to have conveniently forgotten in order to insinuate themselves with the pro-immigration crowd. And, T Chris: The 450 (444 exactly, the last time I checked) or so recognized tribes of Native Americans would be ecstatic to learn that they are "sovereign nations". Nothing could be further from the truth. They are "domestic dependent nations" and are within the scope of regulation by the U.S. Congress, pursuant to Art. I, Sec. 8 of the Constitution. Hell, even states can tax them to varying degrees (see: casinos and cigarettes). They might be upset about fences, but there is not a great deal that they would be able to do about it if it were done in the name of national security.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#14)
      by jimakaPPJ on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 05:57:40 AM EST
      Good heavens. Lavocat and me on the same page...

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#15)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:13:12 AM EST
      Before such a wall can be built, isn't an environmental imapct study required?

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#13)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 08:16:40 AM EST
      TChris: Let me get this right; you want to build a fence on your land with your money and you are legal to do it, and you would check with the neighbors to see it they are offended? Would you check with the neighbors to see what kind of car (SUV) you should drive?

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#16)
      by Sailor on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 10:48:58 AM EST
      Wile, in a lot of states you aren't allowed to build a fence w/o your neighbors approval. Anyone else remember when NAFTA was supposed to solve this problem by shipping Americans' jobs to Mexico so they wouldn't need to cross illegally?

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#17)
      by soccerdad on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 11:12:11 AM EST
      Anyone else remember when NAFTA was supposed to solve this problem by shipping Americans' jobs to Mexico so they wouldn't need to cross illegally?
      Unfortunetly those jobs and more actually went to China. But dont worry the Mexican banking industry did just fine thank you.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#19)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 02:11:32 PM EST
      Jimaka: Yes, it scares me, too. But, hey, I like to think of myself as a liberal in the classic sense; which pretty much means that you can't pigeonhole me and I think for myself, rather than have the Dems do it for me (good lord!). Plus, having served (as I believe you have as well), I have to draw the line somewhere (pun intended). We do, after all, worship the same flag.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#18)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 03:13:34 PM EST
      naw, i'm all for building these fences. it'll keep those south texas deer from going into mexico. hey, while we're at it, why dont we build a dome over the whole country and fence it completely in. lock the gates and only open the roof of our national dome on weekends and holidays. let's imprison ourselves so that we'll be safe. it's a great idea!

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#20)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 03:13:34 PM EST
      What is so wrong about protecting one's border with a fence? Anyone?
      It is not feasible or practical. A waste of financial resources that will have a very minimal impact on illegal immigration. It is merely a symbol for our irrational fears.
      I think for myself, rather than have the Dems do it for me
      If you are in agreement with the old man you are probably better off having the Dems think for you. ;) ~Peaches

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#21)
      by Edger on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:02:13 PM EST
      let's imprison ourselves so that we'll be safe. it's a great idea!
      Security trumps all. It's a big, bad, nasty dangerous world out there. Full of fanatical killers who hate you because you're free. You got to make sure you're safe. That's the most important thing, right? Everything else ain't worth sh*t without you're safe and secure, right?. Right. No question. I heard on the news today that they're closer now. In my town. Sh*t. Now what? I've got it! I'll put up a steel fence around the house. To be safe and secure. Ahhh, that's better. The local radio station said this morning that there's a good chance they're now in the neighborhood. F*ck! Now what? I've got it! I'll put up steel shutters on the windows. To be safe and secure. Ahhh, that's better. The mailman came today. He said he's seen some suspicious looking brown people on the street this morning. But not to worry. He called Homeland Security. They said since they don't need warrants anymore that this is nothing to worry about. They'll be right out to arrest anyone on the sidewalk today. But just to be on the safe side they said to shut, seal and lock the steel shutters. To be safe and secure. Ahhh, that's better. Something woke me up at three in the f*cking morning today. Some low banging and thumping on the wall from outside. I had a hard time getting up out of bed to check it out because the air is getting so bad in here I can hardly fu*king breath in here now. Cough, cough. But I'm safe and secure. Gasp. Choke. Sh*t, there's no food in the cupboard. And the fridge is empty. But I just remembered... I'm safe and secure. Why isn't this any better? It's getting really hard to breath in here now. But good thing I'm safe and secure. F*ck I'm hungry. Mostly for human contact... I wish I had someone to talk to... I'd like to let someone know that I'm safe and secure. But I'm afraid to open the shutters now. I wish there was some air in here... Tell my kids I loved them, will you? And please give them this note.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#22)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Thu Sep 21, 2006 at 04:35:40 PM EST
      Frankly, again, lots of heat and ZERO light here. And I really do not know what Jimaka's position is on this issue, though I suspect he'd agree with the Rep side (though he might just agree with a final amnesty if it were truly a final one). Not feasible? How? I know an army of civil engineers who beg to differ. Not practical? Why? Because it will constitute Big Government? Funny, but the Dems have NEVER been averse to Big Government when it suits their needs - and the same can be said for the Reps (see: alleged "WOT", already in progress). A waste of financial resources? Really? Compared to what? Has the CBO done a full-scale cost-analysis of the thing? If so, I ain't seen it. A "very minimal impact on immigration"!!!??? Are you serious!?How so? The borders would be enforced thereby making passage impossible or highly improbable - except through explicit points of entry. Seems to me like it would have an overwhelming impact on overland immigration. Again, I sense a whiff of the Dem agenda here, that refuses to tolerate any deviation from the "norm" (as it is defined by that heinous entity, the DNC). One can be FOR rigorous enforcement of our national borders AND FOR comprehensive rights for illegal immigrants. Imagine that! Why the hell can't we do BOTH!? That way, we accomplish what both sides want: amnesty for 12 million illegals (for the Dems) and the LAST time such an amnesty is EVER granted, while making a great leap forward toward border security (for the Reps). Like any great compromise, both sides should walk away feeling some pleasure and some pain. Nobody wins but nobody loses. QED.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#24)
      by jimakaPPJ on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 07:23:17 AM EST
      Lavocat - Have no fear, I join you, again. The issue is simple triage. We are being invaded by millions of illegal aliens. Before we do anything else we need to stop that from happening. The fence, actually fences, will help. In the meantime we should deport any and all illegal aliens we catch, and require that all state/local police forces assist us. And just as we force state/local governments on other federal laws, we should just cut off fed grants/funds for criminal justice and schools until they comply. If they don't, then let the citizens of those who do not pay for the costs the illegals bring. Amensty? No. None. Nyat. Not at all. Never. Need your yard mowed? Pay enough to get it done by Americans or do it yourself. Want a burger? Ditto.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#25)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 09:31:35 AM EST
      Lavo, This is not my original, but this quote explains it all. Show me 14 foot fence and I'll show you a 15 foot ladder. It goes on and on like that. Eventually, we run out of financial resources to make a fence that actually keeps immigrants out. You're chasing your own tail. ~Peaches p.s.
      I know an army of civil engineers who beg to differ.
      Engineers can design levys, fences and any number of things that do great things. What they design also costs a lot of money. Then the policy makers come in and make a cut here and a cut there. Then the flood of the century comes and everything was all for naught. There are better ways to approach the immigrant issue than engineers.

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#23)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 10:16:01 AM EST
      let's imprison ourselves so that we'll be safe.
      meant to keep "others" out, but end up fencing you in
      It is not feasible or practical. A waste of financial resources
      I have locks on my doors and windows. I know that it wont stop the most determined person who would just smash the door or window and come right in, but isn't it a little stupid to not even try?

      Re: Mending Fences (none / 0) (#26)
      by Talkleft Visitor on Fri Sep 22, 2006 at 10:16:01 AM EST
      Add Lavo, Stop with the democratic agenda nonsense. This is TL where liberals get together and talk. I have not heard anyone defend big gov't. Big Gov't to me is a huge military, the patriot act, an irresponsible and powergrabbing executive branch, etc. The costs for such programs as a civil engineering core for domestic programs, social safety nets, universal health care, education, etc, might be large, but they remain good investments when compared to the economic waste and destruciton cause by our investments in bombs, guns and military personel. Come here, you should be prepared to argue intellectual points aimed at your interlocutor and not cast wide aspersions aimed at some imaginary position of a demographic or political group. Unless, of course, you are only repeating the position of one of these groups and you do not actually have a mind of your own. ~Peaches