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Tuesday Open Thread

We've been doing a lot of the talking lately, here's a place for you.

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  • Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#5)
    by theologicus on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 08:31:08 AM EST
    Nothing particularly on my mind today. Except this: BRUCE ACKERMAN , professor of law and political science at Yale:
    The compromise legislation, which is racing toward the White House, authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States.
    And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights. This dangerous compromise not only authorizes the president to seize and hold terrorists who have fought against our troops "during an armed conflict," it also allows him to seize anybody who has "purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States."
    This grants the president enormous power over citizens and legal residents. They can be designated as enemy combatants if they have contributed money to a Middle Eastern charity, and they can be held indefinitely in a military prison.
    Andrew Sullivan Legalizing Tyranny 26 Sep 2006
    Those of us trying to resist the Bush administration's seizure of permanent emergency powers have so far failed to alert the American public of the immense danger to their basic liberties that this administration represents. Maybe this story in the Washington Post today will help wake America up. How do I put this in words as clearly as possible. If the U.S. government decides, for reasons of its own, that you are an "illegal enemy combatant," i.e. that you are someone who "has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States," they can detain you without charges indefinitely, granting you no legal recourse except to a military tribunal, and, under the proposed bill, "disappear" and torture you. This is not just restricted to aliens or foreigners, but applies to U.S. citizens as well. It can happen anywhere in the U.S. at any time. We are all at potential risk. Whatever else this is, it is not a constitutional democracy. It is a thinly-veiled military dictatorship, subject to only one control: the will of the Great Decider.
    habeas corpus Democracy Now, 3 October 2006 Bill Goodman, CCR:
    "No one can be held indefinitely, and if they are, they have a right to go in front of a magistrate or a judge and demand that the judge make a determination as to whether they're charged with a crime and whether there's any real evidence to hold them. And if there is not, the magistrate, the judge, can order the king, the police, the FBI, or anyone, or George W. Bush, the President of the United States, to let him go. That's what habeas corpus is. Without it, we are virtually slaves to a police state."
    Orcinus
    In an December 2002 story in the Washington Post, then-Solicitor General Ted Olson described the anarchy at the heart of the process with admirable frankness:
    "[There is no] requirement that the executive branch spell out its criteria for determining who qualifies as an enemy combatant," Olson argues.
    "'There won't be 10 rules that trigger this or 10 rules that end this,' Olson said in the interview. 'There will be judgments and instincts and evaluations and implementations that have to be made by the executive that are probably going to be different from day to day, depending on the circumstances.'"
    Chris Floyd, Extra-Judicial Killing:
    For in addition to the dictatorial powers of seizure and torment given by Congress on Thursday to George W. Bush - powers he had already seized and exercised for five years anyway, even without this fig leaf of sham legality - there is a far more sinister imperial right that Bush has claimed - and used - openly, without any demur or debate from Congress at all: ordering the "extrajudicial killing" of anyone on earth that he and his deputies decide - arbitrarily, without charges, court hearing, formal evidence, or appeal - is an "enemy combatant."
    More sex scandals, please.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#6)
    by theologicus on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 08:42:09 AM EST
    Oh, I forgot to mention this: Instapundit
    With the elections only a month away, we talk to John Fund, Wall Street Journal writer and author of Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy. Fund talks about high-tech problems with electronic voting machines, more mundane problems with ineligible voters and phony ballots, and the general slackness and incompetence that have made our voting system one that can only aspire to the high standards of Mexico.
    It can't happen here.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#1)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 09:25:43 AM EST
    This is a test. Are we being monitored, or not? Anon (aka Jake)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#2)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 09:25:43 AM EST
    And this is the second part of the test - if I am NOT anon, then does the post go through? Jake (aka Anon previously)

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#3)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 09:25:43 AM EST
    So, it is true. All comments are reviewed first. JM - please, find a way to allow comments by people you see all the time that does not require you to review each one. Thanks Jake

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#4)
    by scribe on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 09:25:43 AM EST
    On top of everything else today, it seems The Unit has managed to ignore and antagonize North Korea enough that they have announced their intention to test one of the nukes they've built while The Unit has been inhabiting the Oval Office. So, not only did he blow up an existing agreement to work North Korea back from going nuclear, but they then did, they've been improving their missiles, and now they want to test one of their nukes. And, The Unit sent all those soldiers off to Iraq, looking for the WMDs which never existed there. So, there's nothing miliarily feasible for dealing with the North Koreans, and they're the big problem.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#7)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 09:32:25 AM EST
    Jake, the comments are not being moderated for content, only spam. Most peoples' comments are going into the "junk" section of TL for reasons I don't understand, along with the obvious spam. I have to manually clear them which I try to do every few hours at least. The site move to Scoop is almost complete, it's taken a month to do the templates, so the site looks the same as it does now, but commenting problems should be gone. TL has just outgrown Movable Type because there are more than 15,000 entries and 130,000 comments and all have to reload. I disable Typekey a few months ago, comments are open. Thanks for your patience. And yes, I do delete most anonymous comments. Leave a name, any name, but always the same one so people know your thoughts are coming from a single individual.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#9)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 10:27:25 AM EST
    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#8)
    by kdog on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 10:28:03 AM EST
    Once Bush signs the port-security bill it will be official...online poker is illegal and all financial institutions will be deputized to enforce the ban. Your bank will tell you where you can and can't spend your money. This is freedom? I was playing online last night against a guy in Tehran.....I guess I'll have to tell him my nanny says I can't play no more, and that he is more free than I in this regard. Madness.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#10)
    by scribe on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 11:41:17 AM EST
    I posted the Chenowith obit. DK why I came out anon....

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#11)
    by jondee on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 11:41:17 AM EST
    Too little too late from Andrew Sullivan, who's been going to the mat for Bushco when it really mattered consistently for the last 6 years. Cant wait to hear regime change fellow traveler "Stewie" Hitchens take on these developments.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#12)
    by theologicus on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 12:27:59 PM EST
    This just in from Jack Balkin of theYale Law School.
    The Military Commissions Act allows the government to seize these people off the streets and detain them because they are non-citizens, and, by accusing them of being unlawful enemy combatants, throw them into a parallel system where neither habeas corpus nor the Bill of Rights apply. It takes even resident aliens who have lived in the country for years out of the criminal justice system and into the world of military prisons and CIA interrogations. The MCA allows the government to make mistakes-- very grievous mistakes-- in detention and interrogation that will severely harm these people and that it may never have to account for. A system of laws that can do this-- even if its primary victims are not citizens-- is inconsistent with the principles of a democratic republic.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#13)
    by HK on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 02:51:18 PM EST
    kdog, I think I would have withdrawal symptoms if someone took away my online poker. It's definitely my favourite form of procrastination! However, I'm told that online poker companies registered off-shore will be the answer to your problems. I'm not familiar with the Bill, but it's a tax issue, isn't it?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#14)
    by John Mann on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 03:30:47 PM EST
    JM - please, find a way to allow comments by people you see all the time that does not require you to review each one.
    I'll get right on it.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 03:35:24 PM EST
    HK...here's a link It's not taxes...it makes it illegal for your bank or cc lender to process your transactions with the offshore gaming companies and/or the middlemen like Neteller. Until the sites figure out a way around it, things look bleak.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#16)
    by roy on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 04:47:17 PM EST
    ... the case could be made that live card rooms will benefit because players will be shut out from online poker rooms.
    And there's the rub. There's no federal ban on gambling, only on gambling that effectively competes with casinos and state lotteries. It's pure protectionism, not even a big vote-getting "morals" or "buy American" issue. Please remember this crap next time somebody claims Republicans are into the free market.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 06:24:49 PM EST
    roy - Actually the casinos love online gambling because it teaches people the games. The World Series of Poker has grown from a few hundred (mostly)old men to thousands of all ages. The issue is the same that let's some people think they should tell gays who they can marry and women what to do with their bodies and smokers to not be able to smoke in bars, and sue fast food joints for selling fattening food.. and now, in NYC, resturants can't use trans fats.... In other words, it isn't a Repub or Demo thing. BTW - It was Gray Davis as CA's AG that shut down the "Bad Beat Jackpots" that were so popular among poker players... HK - To be best of my knowledge, all on line gambling sites are owned by off shore companies. kdog - Best I can tell the law prohibits banks from taking or sending money to gambling sites. Will, for example, Firepay be considered a gambling site? If it is not, then money can be transfered to it, and from it to the internet site in question. How much other money transfer business will a company such as Firepay have to do to be considered not a gambling site, or an adjunct to a gambling site. Plus, checks are not included. Which is funny because the bugaboo was that people were using credit cards for cash advances, puting the cash into bank accounts and transfering it to the gambling sites. So all the law does is increase the demand for cashier checks. Outside of being against the law on principle it doesn't bother me. I'm about two hours away from some good 20-40 and 40-80 action and an easy plane ride to LA if I want to visit the world's greatest poker room, the Commerce Club.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#22)
    by Sailor on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 06:53:09 PM EST
    Actually the casinos love online gambling because it teaches people the games.
    That's ... uhhh ... just not true. They donated to the campaigns to get this bill passed so that folks would have to go to casinos and couldn't do it at home. Sheesh, follow the $$, even an idiot can do that.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 07:03:51 PM EST
    Theologicus, Good stuff there today. Any news you know of about consitutional challenges?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 07:03:51 PM EST
    October 3, 2006 6 letters to the editor, NYT, about the detainee bill The first one ends with:
    I disagree with those who say that the president is not asking any sacrifices of Americans in the war on terror. He is asking us to give up the liberties that were our birthright.
    The last one finishes with:
    Our actions must be guided by our own values, not those of terrorists. Torture is not an American value, and neither is imprisoning someone without due process.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 07:03:51 PM EST
    Tuesday, 03 October 2006 Fatal Vision: The Deeper Evil Behind the Detainee Bill
    All of this is bad enough - a sickening and cowardly surrender of liberty not seen in a major Western democracy since the Enabling Act passed by the German Reichstag in March 1933. But it is by no means the full extent of our degradation.
    ...
    That's right; from the earliest days of the Terror War - September 17, 2001, to be exact - Bush has claimed the peremptory power of life and death over the entire world. If he says you're an enemy of America, you are. If he wants to imprison you and torture you, he can. And if he decides you should die, he'll kill you. This is not hyperbole, liberal paranoia, or "conspiracy theory": it's simply a fact, reported by the mainstream media, attested by senior administration figures, recorded in official government documents - and boasted about by the president himself, in front of Congress and a national television audience.
    ...
    In other words, what is safe to do or say today might imperil your freedom or your life tomorrow. You can never know if you are on the right side of the law, because the "law" is merely the whim of the Leader and his minions: their "instincts" determine your guilt or innocence, and these flutterings in the gut can change from day to day. This radical uncertainty is the very essence of despotism - and it is now, formally and officially, the guiding principle of the United States government.
    Who among us will be the first to step forward up and flatly state that they are proud or supportive of this?

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 07:03:51 PM EST
    For the record:
    "The Democrats that defected were virtually all Democrats that are running for re-election ... "They don't want to be viewed as weak on a national security question."
    ...
    ... 80 percent of the Democrats in the Senate voted against the detainee bill, which could be used as ammunition for Republicans to accuse Democrats of being soft on terror.
    Link

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 07:48:03 PM EST
    Sailor - Your lack of business experience is again demonstrated. What the casinos were lobbying for was legalization and regulation. That way they could get a chunk of this HUGE market. I think they will get what they want. The bill has some trade issues, so what will happen now is that Congress will declare that they tried, but the evileeee world made them quit.. So they decided to regulate it to protect the innocents... The money wins again. The REAL money. And like I wrote, they do like to see people learn to gamble.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#24)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 08:14:46 PM EST
    Three billion £ sterling wiped of UK online gambling company shares. Some information here, and a short video clip in the right hand side bar.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Sailor on Tue Oct 03, 2006 at 09:06:16 PM EST
    Pardon me if I don't bet on ppj's delusions, he has been wrong about everything so far.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 05:39:42 AM EST
    Sailor - You should learn to use Google.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 07:30:19 AM EST
    Yes , you really should.
    The American Gaming Association, which represents casino operators based in Las Vegas and elsewhere, had asked Congress to fund a commission that would study whether online gambling can be regulated and taxed in the U.S. The lobby group's hope is a study may eventually let major casino operators such as MGM Mirage and Harrah's Entertainment Inc. enter the online business.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#29)
    by theologicus on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 08:24:32 AM EST
    Thanks, edgar. Here's a note from the TPM Muckraker. It's from a few days back. You can learn more from the website of the Center for Constitutional Rights. Court Challenge to New Detainee Law May Come In "Days" By Justin Rood - September 29, 2006, 1:02 PM
    With President Bush poised to sign the White House-backed detainee treatment bill into law, groups are promising to challenge it in court "in days." "I don't think there's a snowball's chance in 'H' that this will be found constitutional," Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, told Congressional Quarterly (sub. req.). CCR represents a number of Guantanamo prisoners. Strangely, some senators who voted for the bill weren't convinced of its constitutionality. Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA), who voted for the bill even after his amendment to preserve certain rights for detainees was defeated, called the proposal "patently unconstitutional on its face," The Washington Post reported. When CQ asked Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), who negotiated with the White House to win minor concessions on the legislation, if the bill was constitutional, he responded "I think so."
    This is just the beginning of the judicial challenges that we will see.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#31)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 12:10:25 PM EST
    Sailor, and other rational thinkers.
    This all looked very unhealthy, I could only imagine what it was doing to them psychologically. I had the striking thought that this was all completely unforgivable. These adults, no matter their intentions, were performing horrific acts of mental child abuse.
    No,not the Foley hulabaloo, a snippet of a review. Surviving 'Jesus Camp' by Josh Timonen. It's over on Richard Dawkins Foundation For Reason And Science. You might wish to bookmark it,if not allready having done so, a truly great site dedicated to what Dawkins does best, spreading light in this ever darkening world of superstition and fundamentalist claptrap.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 12:32:04 PM EST
    TheO: This is just the beginning of the judicial challenges that we will see. I hope so.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#27)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 12:46:28 PM EST
    I'm with Jim on this one Sailor. Online poker has been a boon to the live poker business, with attendance up in poker rooms around the country. I don't believe the casino industry was behind the ban. And I can't see state lotteries being all that concerned about it either...poker and lotto are two different animals. I'm really at a loss as to why Frist insisted on pissing off 15 million potential voters. I'm inclined to think it's an excuse to give govt more access into our financial lives, and to further turn banks into deputized "money cops". A friend of mine, on the other hand, thinks it's as simple as Frist and his boys selling gaming stocks short on the London market, sneaking the ban through on the security bill, and pocketing a couple million.

    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 03:19:15 PM EST
    Cool idea of the year: 03 October 2006 NewScientist.com news service Huge 'launch ring' to fling satellites into orbit
    An enormous ring of superconducting magnets similar to a particle accelerator could fling satellites into space, or perhaps weapons around the world, suggest the findings of a new study funded by the US air force. Proponents of the idea say it would be much cheaper than conventional rocket launches. .... Previous studies have investigated the use of magnets to accelerate satellites to the high speeds required for launch. But most have focused on straight tracks, which have to gather speed in one quick burst. Supplying the huge spike of energy needed for this method has proven difficult. The advantage of a circular track is that the satellite can be gradually accelerated over a period of several hours. And the setup is technologically feasible and cost effective, suggests a recent, preliminary study of the idea funded by the air force's Office of Scientific Research. The air force has now given the go-ahead for more in-depth research of the idea. The two-year study will begin within a few weeks and be led by James Fiske of LaunchPoint Technologies in Goleta, California, US. The launch ring would be very similar to the particle accelerators used for physics experiments, with superconducting magnets placed around a 2-kilometre-wide ring.


    Re: Tuesday Open Thread (none / 0) (#33)
    by Talkleft Visitor on Wed Oct 11, 2006 at 08:46:18 AM EST
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