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Who To Thank?

Who deserves the thanks of Iraqis for this?

Three suicide car bombs and two mortar rounds struck the capital's Shiite Sadr City slum Thursday, killing at least 150 people and wounding 238, police said. The attack by suspected Sunni Arab militants was the deadliest in the sectarian bloodshed that has engulfed Iraq since last winter. Shiites responded almost immediately, firing 10 mortar rounds at the Sunnis' holiest shrine in Baghdad, the Abu Hanifa mosque in the Azamiya neighborhood, killing one person and wounding 14. Fighting also flared in another part of Baghdad when 30 Sunni insurgents armed with machine guns and mortars attacked the Shiite-controlled Health Ministry.

More.

Who do Americans thank for this?

At least 2,867 U.S. soldiers have died in Iraq since the war began in March 2003, including 49 this month.

Who do we thank for this? And this? And this?

How about that mushroom cloud?

The new information indicates a pattern in which President Bush, Vice President Cheney and their subordinates -- in public and behind the scenes -- made allegations depicting Iraq's nuclear weapons program as more active, more certain and more imminent in its threat than the data they had would support. On occasion administration advocates withheld evidence that did not conform to their views. The White House seldom corrected misstatements or acknowledged loss of confidence in information upon which it had previously relied:

• Bush and others often alleged that President Hussein held numerous meetings with Iraqi nuclear scientists, but did not disclose that the known work of the scientists was largely benign. Iraq's three top gas centrifuge experts, for example, ran a copper factory, an operation to extract graphite from oil and a mechanical engineering design center at Rashidiya.

• The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of October 2002 cited new construction at facilities once associated with Iraq's nuclear program, but analysts had no reliable information at the time about what was happening under the roofs. By February, a month before the war, U.S. government specialists on the ground in Iraq had seen for themselves that there were no forbidden activities at the sites.

• Gas centrifuge experts consulted by the U.S. government said repeatedly for more than a year that the aluminum tubes were not suitable or intended for uranium enrichment. By December 2002, the experts said new evidence had further undermined the government's assertion. The Bush administration portrayed the scientists as a minority and emphasized that the experts did not describe the centrifuge theory as impossible.

• In the weeks and months following Joe's Vienna briefing, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and others continued to describe the use of such tubes for rockets as an implausible hypothesis, even after U.S. analysts collected and photographed in Iraq a virtually identical tube marked with the logo of the Medusa's Italian manufacturer and the words, in English, "81mm rocket."

• The escalation of nuclear rhetoric a year ago, including the introduction of the term "mushroom cloud" into the debate, coincided with the formation of a White House Iraq Group, or WHIG, a task force assigned to "educate the public" about the threat from Hussein, as a participant put it.

Two senior policymakers, who supported the war, said in unauthorized interviews that the administration greatly overstated Iraq's near-term nuclear potential.

. . . Answering questions Thursday before the National Association of Black Journalists, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice said she is "certain to this day that this regime was a threat, that it was pursuing a nuclear weapon, that it had biological and chemical weapons, that it had used them." White House officials referred all questions of detail to Tenet.

In an interview and a four-page written statement, Tenet defended the NIE prepared under his supervision in October. In that estimate, U.S. intelligence analysts judged that Hussein was intent on acquiring a nuclear weapon and was trying to rebuild the capability to make one.

. . . Tenet said the time to "decide who was right and who was wrong" about prewar intelligence will not come until the Iraqi Survey Group, the CIA-directed, U.S. military postwar study in Iraq of Hussein's weapons of mass destruction programs is completed. The Bush administration has said this will require months or years.

But do not forget these names as well - Ignatius, Cohen, Klein, Broder, Hoagland, Brooks. And especially do not forget the name Thomas Friedman.

Thomas Friedman wrote this on September 18, 2002:

Iraq, Upside Down

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Recently, I've had the chance to travel around the country and do some call-in radio shows, during which the question of Iraq has come up often. And here's what I can report from a totally unscientific sample: Don't
believe the polls that a majority of Americans favor a military strike against Iraq. It's just not true.

It's also not true that the public is solidly against taking on Saddam Hussein. What is true is that most Americans are perplexed. The most oft-asked question I heard was some variation of: "How come all of a sudden we have to launch a war against Saddam? I realize that he's thumbed his nose at the U.N., and he has dangerous weapons, but he's never threatened us, and, if he does, couldn't we just vaporize him? What worries me are Osama and the terrorists still out there."

That's where I think most Americans are at. Deep down they believe that Saddam is "deterrable." That is, he does not threaten the U.S. and he never has, because he has been deterred the way Russia, China and North
Korea have been. He knows that if he even hints at threatening us, we will destroy him. Saddam has always been homicidal, not suicidal. Indeed, he has spent a lifetime perfecting the art of survival — because he loves

life more than he hates us.

No, what worries Americans are not the deterrables like Saddam. What worries them are the "undeterrables" — the kind of young Arab-Muslim men who hit us on 9/11, and are still lurking. Americans would pay virtually any price to eliminate the threat from the undeterrables — the terrorists who hate us more than they love their own lives, and therefore cannot be deterred.

I share this view, which is why I think the Iraq debate is upside down. Most strategists insist that the reason we must go into Iraq — and the only reason — is to get rid of its weapons of mass destruction, not regime change and democracy building. I disagree.

I think the chances of Saddam being willing, or able, to use a weapon of mass destruction against us are being exaggerated. What terrifies me is the prospect of another 9/11 — in my mall, in my airport or in my downtown — triggered by angry young Muslims, motivated by some pseudo-religious radicalism cooked up in a mosque in Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Pakistan. And I believe that the only way to begin defusing that threat is by changing the
context in which these young men grow up — namely all the Arab-Muslim states that are failing at modernity and have become an engine for producing undeterrables.

So I am for invading Iraq only if we think that doing so can bring about regime change and democratization. Because what the Arab world desperately needs is a model that works — a progressive Arab regime that by its sheer existence would create pressure and inspiration for gradual democratization and modernization around the region.

I have no illusions about how difficult it would be to democratize a fractious Iraq. It would be a huge, long, costly task — if it is doable at all, and I am not embarrassed to say that I don't know if it is. All I know is that it's the most important task worth doing and worth debating. Because only by helping the Arabs gradually change their context — a context now dominated by anti-democratic regimes and anti-modernist religious leaders and educators — are we going to break the engine that is producing one generation after another of undeterrables.

Thanks Thomas Friedman, from the bottom of our hearts.

May you rot for your outrageous ignorant hubris.

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  • Display: Sort:
    question (4.00 / 1) (#5)
    by MikeWilliams on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 01:58:17 PM EST
    Help me understand how the U.S. is resposible for the sectarian violence.

    there are so many reasons why (4.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Patriot Daily on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 03:17:54 PM EST
    but here are two reasons why bush is responsible for sectarian violence. first, we started an unnecessary war which opened "pandora's box" and bush team was warned that the sectarian violence would occur, yet took no steps to prevent it by having sufficient ground troops or say, i dunno, not sit on sidelines while militias infiltrated the army and police security forces. Two, because we don't have sufficient troops in iraq, we are not even fighting the insurgency to win the war. The miitary mission is purely training security forces. So, when we battle one city, the US wins, and then because we do not have sufficient troops and the local governments are nonexistent due to war, there is a vacuum created where there is no power structure after we leave the city, and then the insurgents take over the city and then ethnic purges continue because we do nothing.

    Parent
    I also thank.... (4.00 / 1) (#12)
    by desertswine on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 03:35:53 PM EST
    GEORGE W BOOSHWA!!!

    for:

    Half a million dead Iraqis,
    Hundreds of thousands homeless and
    Thousands more rufugees.

    Three thousand dead Americans and
    Twenty-five thousand American casualties.

    A nation in chaos, and the Middle-east in more turmoil than ever.

    Thanks Georgie Boy.


    Parent

    Bush... (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 03:46:35 PM EST
    ...invaded Iraq with one of his many justfications being to eliminate Saddams Sunni Baath Party regime, and lift the oppression of the Shia majority in the country, thinking that the Shia would be so grateful that they would probably ignore their longstanding close ties with Iran and cozy up to the US, thereby making the US the dominant power in the region able to keep Irans growing influence checked as Saddam had been successful at for so many years with US weapons, money, and support, all the while probably figuring that the Sunni minority would be so weakened by the overthrow of the regime that they would be no challenge.

    The Shia of course have such strong and deep ties to Iran that they didn't quite see things from George's perspective and just used him and the invasion as the perfect opportunity to extract their revenge on the Sunnis, and with the US now caught in the middle, deepened their relationship with Iran.

    All of which has brought the situation ironically to a point where Bush has to support Saddams base, the Sunnis,  whom he had pulled the rug out from under, in his efforts to continue attempts to become the dominant power in the face of Shia, Iranian, and now Syrian alliances.

    Bush was played for the fool by the Shia and the Iranians that he is, and is now in the idiotic position of needing to restore Saddams base to power to save his own a$$.

    The incompetence is stunning.

    Parent

    It is also adding fuel to the fire... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Bill Arnett on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 01:07:13 PM EST
    ...when, as just on CNN, St. John McCain the Righteous, is now openly calling for the assassination of Muqtada al-Sadr,  local Shiite hero and leader of the Mahdi Militia, and, currently, the only leader of a political party that supports the puppet government we have installed in Iraq. Without him, Maliki falls.

    This obvious "choosing of sides" can only further fan the flames of religious violence in Iraq.

    But, hey, the ordering of extra-judicial killings is now a well-established part of American foreign diplomacy, which is oxymoronic to the max.

    Parent

    Some things to think about from... (3.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 01:29:37 PM EST
    ...Scott Sullivan at The Conservative Voice today, less than an hour ago.

    Kristol Loses Battle of Baghdad
    November 24, 2006 01:00 PM EST

    Instead of Baghdad, Iran wants to take Basra and southern Iraq, from which it can dominate Baghdad and control the exit routes for US troops. Iran's plan is to take Basra while supporting Kurdish acquisition of Kirkuk, which will enrage the Sunnis, who will lose their last access to Iraq's oil revenues, and will respond by torching Baghdad. As Baghdad's conflict deepens, Kurdistan and Shiastan will emerge from Iraq's wreckage as independent states.

    Moreover, as the US reduces its presence in al Anbar province in favor of defending Baghdad , al-Qaeda forces would fill the political vacuum, as is happening today. Al Anbar province is directly connected to Baghdad, so that the Al-Qaeda forces would inevitably become major combatants in Baghdad, which today is not the case.

    All of this is very good for Iran and very bad for everyone else, especially the US, which would find itself trapped in unending urban combat in Baghdad under assault by virtually all of Iraq's hostile factions. Beirut peacekeeping during the Reagan Administration, which became a US fiasco, would in retrospect appear be like a walk in the park compared to urban combat in Baghdad.

    Unlike many of Iraq's issues, this one is a no-brainer. There is no such thing as the defense of Baghdad. If the US posture in Iraq comes down to the defense of Baghdad, the US has already lost the war.



    Parent
    They blew it... (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 01:21:09 PM EST
    ...and now they have to either get out or take sides in Iraq's civil war.

    Which puts them smack in between Iran/Syria/Shia(Iraq) and the Sunni states all around: Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, putting them in the position of taking sides in the wider war of ideas in the Islamic world and creating more hatred amongst Muslims as they continue to support oppressive regimes like the House of Saud (which it wouldn't surpise me to see fall in the next few years).

    They'll never learn. Neither will their supporters who will scream about all the new terrorists created by the Bush administration.

    Parent

    It gets worse... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 02:33:13 PM EST
    Iraqi resistance fighters adapting new tactics
    By Edward Wong at Axis of Logic, Nov 24, 2006, 10:38
    American soldiers fought such units in a pitched battle last week in Turki, a village 25 miles south of this Iraqi Army base in volatile Diyala Province, bordering Iran. At least 72 insurgents and two American officers were killed in more than 40 hours of fighting. American commanders said they called in 12 hours of airstrikes while soldiers shot their way through a reed-strewn network of canals in extremely close combat.

    Officers said that in that battle, unlike the vast majority of engagements in Diyala, insurgents stood and fought, even deploying a platoon-size unit that showed remarkable discipline. One captain said the unit was in "perfect military formation."

    Insurgents throughout Iraq usually avoid direct confrontation with American troops, preferring to use hit-and-run tactics and melting away at the sight of American armored vehicles.

    Lt. Col. Andrew Poppas, commander of the Fifth Squadron, 73rd Cavalry, a unit of the 82nd Airborne Division, said in an interview that the fighters at Turki "were disciplined and well trained, with well-aimed shots."

    "We hadn't seen anything like this in years," he said.



    Parent
    More of this is to be expected since... (none / 0) (#39)
    by Bill Arnett on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 03:05:23 PM EST
    ... the American military undoubtedly TRAINED and EQUIPPED this "disciplined and well-trained" platoon-sized group of fighters.

    Just another consequence of failing to understand the language, religions, and history of the country.

    How many times do we have to hear of entire Iraqi units going AWOL, refusing to deploy, refusing to leave their local areas, and refusing to take up arms against fellow Iraqis?

    Mix that up with Negroponte's "death squads", tolerance of militias, and the only government that is, perhaps, more corrupt than the bush/cheney maladministration and you have exactly what the military has been forecasting: chaos.

    Parent

    And now... (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 03:21:28 PM EST
    ...they are burning each other alive (literally) in Baghdad:
    Militants killed dozens of people - including six worshippers who were burned to death - and set mosques on fire in a Sunni Arab enclave in Baghdad on Friday, one day after a series of car bombings in the capital's Shiite stronghold of Sadr City killed 202 people.

    ...and al-Sadr has:
    threatened to quit the national unity government if Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki meets US President George W. Bush as scheduled in Jordan on November 29.

    ...while Bush, whistling in complete disconnect from reality:
    is sticking with his plan to meet with Maliki in Jordan next Wednesday and Thursday, despite the boycott threat by Shiites legislators.


    Parent
    Hmmm, a really tough queston (4.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Officious Pedant on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 03:39:19 PM EST
    Or is it?

    The Bush administration, certain of an easy victory in Iraq, invaded a sovereign nation to remove a dictator. On flimsy evidence, as it turned out.

    After the success of the invasion, the first 90 days of securing the country fell to General Jay Garner, a man with a great deal of experience in the Kurdish North, who had gotten the Shia, Sunni and Kurds to at least listen while he hammered out the details of the upcoming elections. He was fired, and replaced with Mr Bremmer. Who cancelled the elections, and expelled Baathists, with some vigor, from every level (including the military) of the government. Which effectively derailed any chance for stability at a crucial time following the invasion.

    US troops weren't tasked or equipped with protecting the munitions at sites like al Qaqaa, and watched while it was raided by locals. And they weren't equipped to quell rioting or looting when it broke out in Baghdad.

    So, thousands of Baathists dismissed into the general population, armed, funded, no doubt, by some of those missing billions, and militias depended upon to keep order in their districts. For three years. And you want to wonder what the US responsibility is? Ummm, OK.

    Parent

    Then you might look here... (3.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 02:17:17 PM EST
    "Ancient History": U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly Of Intervention
    After 70 years of broken Western promises regarding Arab independence, it should not be surprising that the West is viewed with suspicion and hostility by the populations (as opposed to some of the political regimes) of the Middle East.(3) The United States, as the heir to British imperialism in the region, has been a frequent object of suspicion. Since the end of World War II, the United States, like the European colonial powers before it, has been unable to resist becoming entangled in the region's political conflicts. Driven by a desire to keep the vast oil reserves in hands friendly to the United States, a wish to keep out potential rivals (such as the Soviet Union), opposition to neutrality in the cold war, and domestic political considerations, the United States has compiled a record of tragedy in the Middle East. The most recent part of that record, which includes U.S. alliances with Iraq to counter Iran and then with Iran and Syria to counter Iraq, illustrates a theme that has been played in Washington for the last 45 years. An examination of the details and consequences of that theme provides a startling object lesson in the pitfalls and conceit of an interventionist foreign policy.


    Parent
    Start here... (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 02:11:31 PM EST
    Ask and Ye Shall Receive (none / 0) (#8)
    by terry hallinan on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 02:12:20 PM EST
    Help me understand how the U.S. is resposible for the sectarian violence.

    Since John Foster Dulles (Eisenhower's Secretary of State for those not in their dotage) told the Arabs and Israelis to start acting like Christians, they have done so.

    Best,  Terry


    Parent

    how U.S. is responsbible (none / 0) (#30)
    by Nikolay on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 09:58:39 AM EST
    It is arming and training army that then engages in the sectarian violence. Its strategy was mostly based on the support of the Shi'a side of the conflict. It didn't do anything to remove Bayan Jabr  from the Iraqi government (he's now the Minister of Finance) after it was found out that his Ministry of Interior was running death squads, secret prisons etc. It supported the policy of de-Baathification, which was largely responsible for what's happening there. It supports the Badr Brigade that is the armed wing of Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Badr Brigade is engaged in sectarian killings.

    Parent
    Exactly... (none / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 10:14:56 AM EST
    [the US] strategy was mostly based on the support of the Shi'a side of the conflict.

    Bush has handed Iraq to Iran on a silver platter, which, I suspect, may have been the objective all along.

    We may soon start seeing this situation being used as justification in a drawn out and all out Neocon propaganda campaign to convince people that since Iran wants to overrun Iraq and become the controlling power in the Middle East that an attack on Iran is now necessary.

    Operation Comeback, or how the neocons plan to save themselves:

    Prepare to Bomb Iran. Make no mistake, President Bush will need to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities before leaving office.

    Iran preparation for the occupation forces withdrawal. A Chilling Letter from the Badr Brigade
    By Mr. Sadr's Office
    Nov 16, 2006, 18:56

    A chilling letter from "Badr Brigade" addressing Shiite parties, giving instructions for the preparations after occupation forces withdraw from Iraq.


    Parent
    Jarober (4.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Dadler on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 03:44:54 PM EST
    How many Vietnamese were killed during the war?  

    How might things have been different had we said "Be whatever you want, be communist, we're just here to help and set the best example for you to follow that we can?"

    Imagine if any of those desperate letters from Ho Chi Minh to American Presidents had been answered with the respect and concern that the Vietnamese deserved.

    Vietnam was starved by the French and bombed into oblivion by us.  The continuation of that bombardment in the service of "anti-communism", especially in retrospect, would only have killed more people and made the post-war situation worse.  

    The situation in Iraq is ONLY salvagable by the Iraqis.  We had our chance, if it even existed, early on to help Iraqis and instead we abandoned them to war profiteering, an almost mentally retarded lack of strategy, prisoner abuse, off the charts cultural ignorance, troops completely untrained for the counter-insurgency situation they then faced, you name it.  When you f*ck up as badly as we have, you don't get ANY amount of solace or satisfaction. That's the whole thing with massive and murderous blunders in an unjustified war: they CAN'T be made right.  You don't get do-overs and take-backs.    

    Accept that there will be NO NICE SOLUTION here.  That your sense of American pride, which all of us have to some degree or another, will not be assuaged.  We blew it.  Period.  The quicker we leave, the quicker Iraqis can deal with their own situation, their own way.  No government there will stand until we are gone.  Nothing will.  We have poisoned the well and now must leave.  That this will include massive bloodshed is doubtless.  But that is the bed we have made.  We are protecting no one now.  Unless you want to claim we are, in which case I would ask you to logically claim how we are.  How our troops are spead our throughout Iraqi neighborhoods, working with locals, and guarding the innocents.  You can't do this, because that strategy never existed.  No strategy existed beyond the best-case scenario.  And that is beyond foolish.  It deserves no proud result.

    If nothing else, the vast majority of Iraqis want us out, does their opinion mean nothing to you?  Or do you think you know better for them than they do?  Doesn't it suggest they think we're making things MORE complicated to solve rather than easier?    

    Dadler rewrites history (1.00 / 1) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 06:04:40 PM EST
    How might things have been different had we said "Be whatever you want, be communist, we're just here to help and set the best example for you to follow that we can?"

    Of course what you leave out is that the North Vietnamese wasn't offering any options. You either converted or died, as millions discovered

    And that dear Dadler is why the Left is so deadly. They have his fuzzy view of the world that is so unrealistic to be sickening, plus they never seem to learn from their mistakes.

    As for your claims about war protiteerong, etc., these are just the standard slogans that actually show only the lack of reality I noted above.

    When will the children grow up??

    Parent

    The situation... (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 03:57:56 PM EST
    ...in Iraq is ONLY salvagable by the Iraqis.

    And it won't be done in any manner that the US is going to profit by. In fact it appears now that, failing a US attack on Iran as a a forestalling effort, regional political power and influence and control will congeal under an alliance of Syria, Iran, and Iraq, with Iran the major power, to keep the US from dominating the region.

    They will fix it themselves. They are not interested in ANY US plans for them. The geopolitical power balance of the world is shifting drastically.

    Bush has given the region exactly what bin Ladin wants: the power to drive the US out of the region.

    The era of the unipolar single superpower world is over. We just don't know it yet.

    Parent

    There is enormous danger in this situation however (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 04:02:56 PM EST
    The era of the unipolar single superpower world is over... UNLESS...

    Parent
    Or... (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 04:19:33 PM EST
    Thomas Friedman and Iraq (4.00 / 1) (#26)
    by john horse on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 09:57:06 PM EST
    re: "I have no illusions about how difficult it would be to democratize a fractious Iraq. It would be a huge, long, costly task -- if it is doable at all, and I am not embarrassed to say that I don't know if it is. All I know is that it's the most important task worth doing..." (Thomas Friedman)

    I am glad to see that people like Thomas Friedman are willing to take the risk of sacrificing other people's sons and daughters in long, costly wars for goals that may not be "doable".  

    There is a paradox about our occupation in Iraq.  The longer we stay the worse things get.  As Kevin Drum points out "the American occupation has actually made the Iraqi situation worse every single year since it began, and will probably continue to make things worse as long as we're there."      

    jarober, do you realize...... (4.00 / 1) (#28)
    by cpinva on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 12:42:35 AM EST
    in two separate posts, you flip-flopped completely?

    in defense of mr. friedman, nowhere was he suggesting that he thought invading iraq was a good idea, or that we should. in fact, he was among the few that honestly noted the ambivalence of the bulk of the u.s. adult population, with respect to mr. bush's planned war, something no other columnist or reporter did at that time, especially not those actually employed by the nytimes, with one other exception: paul krugman.

    perhaps, had there been an actual debate, and not the lie induced "mushroom cloud" hysteria, generated by the bush administration, that debate could have been held. one of two eventualities would have presented itself: 1. we, as a nation, agreed that invading iraq, toppling saddam, and converting the country to a democracy was a good and worthy endeavor. we would have, as a country, taken the risk, fully cognizent of the difficulties it entailed., or 2. we'd have decided to let the iraqi's fend for themselves, it wasn't worth the expenditure of blood and national treasure required to do the job right.

    we never had that transparent debate, and look where we are.

    mr. bush is right about one thing: it will take years............. to uncover all the lies and duplicities committed by his administration, in its path to an unnecessary, ill advised, ill planned war.

    and please thank MSM (3.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Patriot Daily on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 01:23:56 PM EST
    for their great objective, critical coverage of the bush, cheney shifting grounds for war before the war started.

    thanks to such great coverage, it only took a few years for a lot of Americans to catch up to the fact that it was all lies. And, when the public realized that it was all lies, there was no support for war. yes, many in the MSM reported stories about how each ground or claim for war was baseless, but it did not get the coverage required to inform the public at large.

     

    Saddam Hussein's Baath Party was Sunni. (3.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 01:46:43 PM EST
    The games continue as usual:

    "The killing fields of Iraq -- where hundreds of thousands of men and women and children vanished into the sands -- would still be known only to the killers. For all who love freedom and peace, the world without Saddam Hussein's regime is a better and safer place." (Applause.)
    --George W. Bush, SOTU, January 20, 2004

    Iraqis Shiites see diminishing U.S. support for their postwar domination
    The Associated Press, November 4, 2006

    BAGHDAD, Iraq: Iraq's ruling Shiites have voiced growing concern that the United States is subtly shifting support to Sunni Arabs, the bulwark of Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, in a bid to salvage 43-months of democracy building in Iraq and tamp down violence.

    The perceived re-energized bid to draw the Sunni insurgency into Iraq's political process marks, in the eyes of anxious Shiites, a worrisome and major alteration of American policy in a period that has seen growing strains in the U.S.-Iraqi relationship.

    Shiites in Iraq were not alone in sensing the change.

    "There is much talk of such a shift, and it is in part driven by the (American) desire to contain Iran,"

    Let's hope Thomas Friedman has some company while he rots...

    The wise man... (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 02:01:36 PM EST
    ...travels (in a circle) to discover himself.

    And if he doesn't like what he finds... well... he can always fall back on semantics.

    Right, George?

    Parent

    Democratization at Work (3.00 / 1) (#4)
    by squeaky on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 01:54:17 PM EST
    I have no illusions about how difficult it would be to democratize a fractious Iraq. It would be a huge, long, costly task -- if it is doable at all, and I am not embarrassed to say that I don't know if it is. All I know is that it's the most important task worth doing and worth debating. Because only by helping the Arabs gradually change their context.......

    Trickle Down Democracy or just plain ole fun, not a nice thanksgiving gesture in either case.

    via John Brown's PUBLIC DIPLOMACY PRESS AND BLOG REVIEW

    So... (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jarober on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 03:05:38 PM EST
    TL seems to believe that if we just leave, things will magically get better.  That's simply not going to happen.  Consider two historical events:

    1) Vietnam

    After we left (and cut off funding to the South Vietnamese government), the south fell, hundreds of thousands went into "reeducation" camps, and over a million people fled the country in small boats.  Laos and Cambodia fell to communism, and the Cambodian holocaust happened.  The anti-war left, which believed things couldn't get worse - was dead wrong.

    2) 1877, the US government withdraws from the south.  The initial civil rights movement for blacks ends, jim crow laws are passed, and blacks enter a long, dark night from which they only started to exit in the late 1950s.

    So - now TL, and the left in general says "it can't get worse" if we leave.  Well.  Not only can it get worse, it will get worse.  The damage from the 1877 withdrawal was limited to the US, but the Vietnam withdrawal emboldened the Soviets, who made a renewed push around the globe - you can read any of the post-Soviet works, like The World was Going Our Way to see what I mean.

    For good or ill, the US military is a power source providing some level of stability in Iraq.  For how bad things are in Baghdad, removing US troops is not going to make it better.  Instead, the Sunni powers in the region will immediately worry about Iranian ambitions, given the fact that the Iranians are

    -- Shia
    -- Trying to acquire nuclear weapons

    It doesn't matter what you think Iran will or won't do with nukes - what matters is what the Sunni regional powers think.  These groups look at each other in the same way that Protestants and Catholics did through the awful years from Luthor's manifesto to the end of the 17th century.  Which is to say, as apostates who should be ground into dust.

    Now, if this were all playing out in a resource poor part of the world, it wouldn't have to be our problem.  However, the economy of the entire planet depends on oil from that region.  Alternative energy is irrelevant in this case, because it's simply not going to come online fast enough to replace the oil - even nuclear, which could come on line the quickest (modulo political difficulties), would do nothing to solve transport and petro-chemical usage.  Whether we like it or not, the world depends on oil, and the oil from that region cannot quickly be replaced by supplies from somewhere else.

    If we depart, the most likely result will be regional war between the Sunnis and the Shia - it will look a lot like the 30 years war, but with modern weaponry (possibly, but not definitely, including nukes).  That would disrupt oil supplies across the planet, which would bring economic chaos to China, Europe, the US, Japan (etc., etc).  

    After the civil war, northern troops "picked up their ball and went home".  This had a horrible impact on southern blacks, but the north neither saw nor cared, and the impact beyond the immediate south was limited.  That won't be the case if we leave Iraq.  The blowback will reach far and wide, and we'll end up having to engage again - whether we like it or not.

    There is not one scintilla of evidence... (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Bill Arnett on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 01:27:17 PM EST
    ...that proves Iran has anything in mind but the peaceful use of nuclear power to generate electricity, so the last half of your unproven allegations against Iran, where you say:

    given the fact that the Iranians are

    -- Shia
    -- Trying to acquire nuclear weapons

    fails to be persuasive at all.

    Meanwhile, as the neocons and people such as yourself proclaim that we MUST control that oil because there are no alternatives, third-world countries like Brazil have already become oil independent if they choose.

    It is both insulting and untrue that America cannot do the same and that we must kill, kill, kill for oil.

    And while we bankrupt the country, break our military, earn the utter contempt of most of the world, and set back American freedoms to a point never contemplated, the CHINESE, our financiers, are quietly circling the globe BUYING UP every oil contract they can from any country that has oil.

    So not only are we NOT going to achieve our objectives in Iraq, our bankers, the Communist Chinese, are proving that you can buy more oil legitimately while watching the world's last superpower destroy itself from within.

    And the minute the Chinese tire of our games, they will stop financing us, call in our markers, and sell off dollars so cheaply as to make American currency worthless.

    Oh, yeah, Iraq is really worth this - NOT.

    Parent

    Ummm (4.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Officious Pedant on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 04:36:32 PM EST
    Cambodia fell before South Vietnam did, and Laos had been in a holding pattern for years, with the Communists concerned that toppling it would complicate the effort in South Vietnam. Indonesia defeated its Communist insurgents in 1965, Thailand did not fall, Malaysia avoided the whole thing when the British negotiated with various groups (the ethnic Chinese at the heart of The Emergency, for one) the back of the insurgency was broken. The list of those that didn't fall in the region, is longer than those that did.

    And, when the fall of China to Communism didn't trigger the conflagration, what is the support to the argument that South Vietnam would?

    And someone can talk whatever trash they want about how well things were going for the USSR, if they opt to ignore the unrest in the satellite states (which we did not invade to curtail the domino theory), an economy devastated by the space race and the Cold War, and a massive failure of policy in the war with Afghanistan. Almost the same kind of fantasy we find operating with respect to Mr. Bush's policy in Iraq.

    Given that, I am wont to question the total collapse of the Iraqi state. More to the point, given the number of lives taken to date, I am unmoved by the argument that, "if we leave, more lives will be lost than our current endeavor is taking". If we withdraw to Kuwait/Turkey/the Kurdish North, we position ourselves to deprive the insurgency of their catalyst (our troops), and be in a position to interven in ethnic excesses. This wave of ethnic violence is going on now, with us in the middle. The idea that continuing to stand in the middle will mitigate it will come as a real shock to the ~100 people per month that land in the morgue.

    Parent

    Meanwhile... (1.00 / 1) (#21)
    by jarober on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 07:08:54 PM EST
    The left ignores the global nature of the war.  In Thailand:


    Thailand's army-backed cabinet meets in special session on Thursday to discuss Muslim unrest in the far south, a deadly but localised conflict security analysts fear might one day "go global". Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont, a former army chief, and his cabinet are scheduled to review the government's new peace offensive to address the largely Malay-speaking Muslim south. Surayud has already made three trips to the region since his appointment after a Sept. 19 military coup ousted Thaksin Shinawatra, apologising for his predecessor's hardline treatment of the region.

    ... The immediate response has been a surge in drive-by shootings and other small-scale attacks, hallmarks of a conflict in which more than 1,800 people -- Muslims and Buddhists -- have been killed over the past three years.

    What did the Thais do to deserve Islamic ire?  Perhaps there's a larger issue that goes beyond Iraq?

    Well... (1.00 / 2) (#23)
    by jarober on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 07:45:05 PM EST
    TL must have decided that my comment on Thailand was uncomfortable.  Can't have facts out there that don't fit the storyline.

    Edger, you need to use Google.  Note that the terror attacks in Thailand have picked up since the coup and the apology.  Almost as if the groveling has emboldened the terrorists, or something.

    There's a lesson in that, which can be pondered for the minutes between now and TL's decision to delete this comment.

    If you are viewing nested... (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 07:50:37 PM EST
    ...your comment is at the top of the thread reated "1"

    Parent
    It also seems to keep things a bit more... (none / 0) (#36)
    by Bill Arnett on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 01:33:00 PM EST
    ...orderly, Edger, if you use the setting "Ignore Ratings" so that you can follow along easier. ;-)

    Parent
    Heh... thanks Bill :-) (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 01:42:32 PM EST
    ...well... I was trying to make jabberwober pay attention and quit his bleating about comments being deleted when he can't find them after someone has rated them. ;-)

    Parent
    Their own (none / 0) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 01:19:42 PM EST
    I would say that the Suni - Shia problems go back hundreds of years.

    Have you re-written history??

    And have you forgot that the Baath Party was Suni?

    The simple part of this, and what you don't want to admit, is that the Suni have joined with the terrorists in many cases, in others the Iraanian and Al Qaiada terrorists and the Suni terrorists act alone.. Each having their own agenda.

    You are either being willfully obtuse... (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 07:24:20 PM EST
    ...or you're just ineptly trolling, grasping for any slim straw you can use to claim some flaw of murderous insanity endemic to Muslims to justify your love of your WOT (war on thinking) theme.

    What did the Thais do to deserve Islamic ire?

    You answered your own question:

    Surayud has already made three trips to the region since his appointment after a Sept. 19 military coup ousted Thaksin Shinawatra, apologising for his predecessor's hardline treatment of the region.

    Ever heard of Google? Try it sometime. You'll like it. It's a great tool you can use to get your questions answered, and your anwsers questioned.

    Now run along.

    Ok (none / 0) (#25)
    by jarober on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 07:53:27 PM EST
    My mistake, I didn't see the way it was organized.  Ignore my snippy comment above.

    You answered your own question (none / 0) (#27)
    by Pancho on Thu Nov 23, 2006 at 11:52:06 PM EST
    Sunni Arab militants



    The first thing we have to do (none / 0) (#29)
    by Edger on Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 01:28:11 AM EST
    to stabilize Iraq is make sure dumb sh*t doesn't start anymore friggin' wars or piss any more Muslims off, and the best way to do that is to confine the moron to his naughty chair in the Oval Office," said Jim Baker to reporters.


    We've done enough damage (none / 0) (#41)
    by Beck Lomax on Thu Feb 08, 2007 at 09:56:20 PM EST
    The US had no reason to go into Iraq. Forget all the political sniping about bad intelligence and secret agendas. I could care less that Saddam gassed or tortured his people. No neo-holocaust, be it in Iraq, Rwanda, or Sudan, is ever going to be worth the shedding of American blood. Had we stayed out and simply practiced containment in the region, this would have been far less violent and the price of oil would be less volatile at this point. Simply, put we need to stop acting on the perceived plight and misery of all the people in developing countries. Moreover, is it elitist for the US Government to think that it can reason with the likes of the third-world Arab mind.