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Trying Terror Cases the Old Fashioned Way

Alex Koppelman at Salon compares the prosecution of Jose Padilla to that of a home-grown terrorist tried the old-fashioned way and explains why the Padilla method is likely to fail.

That the prosecution of Crocker ended so successfully points to what may ultimately be the most significant difference between the Crocker and Padilla cases. Crocker was investigated, prosecuted and detained in the old, pre-9/11 way, and his case has held up even as the Padilla prosecution has self-destructed.

The Crocker case was brought in by old-fashioned police work. A confidential informant passed on a tip and a sting was conducted by an FBI agent careful to make sure the plan was real and not a creation of the government. No lawyer for Crocker has ever filed an allegation that Crocker was tortured. He wasn't even cuffed or shackled at his arraignment. The case against Padilla, on the other hand, came about through anything but normal means, and that has been its downfall.

The Wall St. Journal (free link) examines the problems the Pentagon has encountered with the military commission trial of Canadian teenager Omar Khahr.

I see Omar Khadr, Child of Jihad, much different than the military.

As Jeanne of (the unfortunately now defunct) Body and Soul wrote:

The problem is, Omar Khadr is as much a victim of these people as a member of the family. He's eighteen years old. When he was captured in Afghanistan, he was fifteen -- a child turned into a soldier by parents from hell. And our government's response to this victim of child abuse was to abuse him further.

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    The Crocker case (1.00 / 2) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 11:56:28 AM EST
    was investigated/tried/etc within the US by agencies who presumably cooperate with each other and with people who were readily available for interviews.

    On the other hand and from the link provided to the WSJ.

    But for Maj. Groharing, the case of U.S. v. Omar Khadr, slated for an American military commission at Guantánamo, has been a headache. Intelligence agencies refused to share their files with the prosecutor, fearing their methods or sources might be disclosed. Soldiers who witnessed the incident are scattered across the globe. Defense attorneys hurled a series of legal challenges that paralyzed proceedings. And the crime scene -- a remote village still contested by Taliban fighters -- was all but obliterated by American bombs, making it nearly impossible to conduct an independent investigation.

    I commented several years ago, on this blog, that these types of problems would make it almost impossible to utilize a standard US CJ trial with all the due process, etc., that goes with one, including secure chain of evidence, etc. The defense attorneys have utilized our strength against us.

    The problem is that the focus has been on the process, rather than getting to the truth, which based on what I have read, is straight forward and undeniable. The young man threw a hand grenade that killed one and injured others. He was undoubtedly engaged in combat. Since he does not meet the requirements of the GC and other protocols, he is falls squarely into the guerilla fighter category.

    Summon those on the scene, determine their veracity and proceed. My recommendation would be death by hanging.

    One size fits all. (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:28:26 PM EST
    My recommendation would be death by hanging.


    Parent
    edger (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:55:24 PM EST
    I wonder why neither you, squeaky or aw have commented on my point re the almost impossibility of a standard US CJ trial versus a simple need to determine the truth?

    Do you actually believe he is not guilty? And if you do, why? And if you believe he is, what punishment would you recommend??

    Parent

    I'm going to take a page from Bill (none / 0) (#14)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 01:35:41 PM EST
    No response forthcoming.

    Parent
    I was wondering where that page went... (none / 0) (#19)
    by Bill Arnett on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:21:00 PM EST
    Thanks for noting that you cannot respond. (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:37:30 PM EST
    I (none / 0) (#26)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:45:07 PM EST
    will not respond.  See the difference?

    Parent
    aw, yes. I see that you haven't (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:20:57 PM EST
    the capability to respond.

    Parent
    Welcome to another edition of ... (none / 0) (#47)
    by Sailor on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:48:42 PM EST
    Talk to the hand Jim.

    Parent
    You answere your own question (none / 0) (#17)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 01:44:17 PM EST
    I wonder why neither you [...]have commented on my point re the almost impossibility of a standard US CJ trial

    When the going gets tough, screw the justice system. Why go to all the bother of a trial? Just eliminate the uncomfortable questions, and summarily kill the accused. Always go for those warm fuzzies, huh Jim?

    My recommendation would be death by hanging.
    --ppj


    Parent
    Well, since it is (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:45:32 PM EST
    almost, if not actually impossible to use the standard US CJ system, what you do?

    Continue to keep doing the same thing while expecting a different result?? Isn't that a definition for insanity??

    If you are looking for justice, why not just bring in those who witnessed the attack and proceed? Why all the challenges? What is the motive of the lawyers in this? To get someone freed who is a gurellia/unlawful combatant?

    Justice may be blind, but should it also be stupid?

    What purpose does that serve? Justice? I don't think so.

    Do you?

    Parent

    If you don't like it... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:53:02 PM EST
    ...find yourself a nice dictatorship to move to.

    Unfortunately Jim, no one is going to give you your wish and turm America into one. Without a fight.

    Parent

    Do you claim (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:25:10 PM EST
    that we are supposed to provide a gureilla fighter captured in a firefight in a distant land is due the same constitutional rights as a US citizen??

    What's next? Registeration to vote??

    Stupid is as stupid does, eh??

    Parent

    The Constitution (none / 0) (#44)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:37:49 PM EST
    makes no distinction between citizens and non-citizens.

    It also does not apply to people. It applies to the government, and sets limits on what the government can legally do, as well as sets out the governments responsibilities.

    But you knew that...

    Parent

    And there are still lots (none / 0) (#45)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:39:19 PM EST
    of dictatorships you can go live under if they are so inviting...

    Parent
    Long established rules of war. (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:56:48 PM EST
    Continue to keep doing the same thing while expecting a different result?? Isn't that a definition for insanity??

    Did you actually read the WSJ article?

    The U.S. has employed forms of military commissions in past conflicts, most recently World War II, when hundreds of Axis officials and soldiers were tried for offenses such as crimes against humanity and mistreatment of American prisoners of war. But those trials took place after fighting had ended and before the introduction of stricter courtroom and evidentiary standards, as laid out by the Geneva Conventions, the U.S. Uniform Code of Military Justice and other laws....

    In November 2005, the administration formally charged Mr. Khadr with conspiracy, murder by an unprivileged belligerent, attempted murder by an unprivileged belligerent and aiding the enemy. The charges stem from Mr. Khadr's classification as an unlawful combatant, or a person who has no right to commit acts of war; if he was adjudged to be part of a regular army, his actions likely would be considered legal under the rules of war.

    Bush tries to be tricky like Stalin and ppj with newgfangled categories, America is not happy with the assault on civil rights, the constitution and international laws.  

    Parent

    guerrilla's are hanged (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:31:51 PM EST
    if he was adjudged to be part of a regular army, his actions likely would be considered legal under the rules of war.

    But the fact is that he didn't meet the various requirements, and so became defined as a:

    guerrilla: a person who engages in irregular warfare especially as a member of an independent unit carrying out harassment and sabotage

    The historical fate of guerrilla fighters was death when captured and convicted by a military court. It is a tribute to our culture that we give them a hearing.

    Parent

    Hmmm. (none / 0) (#43)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:34:46 PM EST
    It is a tribute to our culture that we give them a hearing.

    In spite of the fact that many would rather just summarily hang him without a hearing, you mean?

    Parent

    Troll (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 06:00:32 PM EST
    Now you have moved into troll mode. First you selectively quote a wsj that you obviously did not read or if you did read it did not understand, and now you are off the rails calling the 15 year a guerilla who should be hung first or you now conceede should be tried in a kangaroo court.

    Your terms, lessons about tradition and summary verdict. Hang em. Hey why bother with any facts, laws, or mitigating details when you can make the whole thing up to satisfy your lust for blood.

    You would really like Saudi Arabia, maybe it would remind you of your early days in the old south.

    Parent

    Executioner (none / 0) (#7)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:36:08 PM EST
    And will you volunteer to be the hangman? About time you served for all your keyboard kommando cheerleading. There is no age limit for executioners. No more excuses.

    Parent
    No logic. (none / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:45:22 PM EST
    squeaky - Your continued argument about "doing something" has no logic. If you followed it to the end, if you buy a steak you must be a grocer, butcher, truck driver, slaughterer, truck driver and rancher/farmer.


    Parent
    No Logic?? (none / 0) (#12)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 01:10:35 PM EST
    Killing humans analogous to being a butcher? Advocating hanging the same as buying meat??? Don't tell me that you are also a PETA freak too.

    Parent
    Want more, eh? (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:17:32 PM EST
    Try this   one.

    You may not talk about education unless you are willing to become a teacher. You may not discuss poverty unless you yourself are willing to go and form a homeless shelter. How dare you criticize Congress unless you are willing to go out and get elected yourself? Your opinion on a National Health Care System is negated out of hand since you are unwilling to get a medical degree and open a clinic. And as far as your opinions regarding the Democratic Underground or The Huffington Post are concerned, well, you can just keep them to yourself, mister, unless you can produce an advanced degree in Abnormal Psychology and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

    Using the internal reasoning behind the Chickenhawk argument means you cannot comment on, speak about or even hold an opinion on any subject that is not part of your paying day job. It is simple-minded and profoundly anti-democratic, which is why it so deeply appeals to those who sling it around the most.

    BTW - Squeaky... why couldn't you stay on subject rather than jumping off into this?? Could it be you have no answers to my argument??

    Parent

    OT? (none / 0) (#24)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:42:25 PM EST
    The King of OT speaks:

    BTW - Squeaky... why couldn't you stay on subject rather than jumping off into this?? Could it be you have no answers to my argument??

    Now unless we divert the thread to answer ppj's questions we are OT.

    nice try ppj glad that you have disagreed with your own advice.

    My recommendation would be death by hanging.

    And your reading comprehension is still at 6th grader with ADD.

    Under an order President Bush issued in November 2001, Mr. Khadr could claim few of the rights afforded defendants in civilian courts or courts-martial...

    Prof. Ahmed says murder by an unprivileged belligerent "has never been recognized as a violation of the laws of war," and was instead "invented" by the Bush administration. The other charge, aiding the enemy, makes no sense, the law professor adds, because Mr. Khadr owes no allegiance to the U.S. Lastly, because Mr. Khadr was 15 at the time of the alleged crime, he should be treated as a juvenile, says Prof. Ahmad, following historic precedent.

    His attorneys allege Mr. Khadr was subjected to years of abuse, including being used as a "human mop" to clean up urine, being shackled until he soiled himself, and being threatened with deportation to Egypt, where he would be raped.

    The case against Mr. Khadr is now one of many held up by the Supreme Court's decision to strike down the Bush administration's original commission plan.

    The whole point of this thread is that Bush has f*cked up the system. Omar Khadr sad case is one of the results of how Bush fascism doesn't work in a constitutional democracy.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:34:29 PM EST
    No, the post is about trying Corker, a US citizen and trying a unlawful combatant. Go read it.

    Your hatred of Bush wants to make it about Bush, and closes your mind to the actual facts.

    Parent

    Why (none / 0) (#1)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 09:44:04 AM EST
    wasn't the Crocker case a big national news story?        
    We are obsessed with terrorists otherwise.  We're fighting them over there so we won't have to fight them here, right?

    Was the trial of a home-grown neo-nazi terrorist too unsexy?  Were there no resources to cover it among all the stories of missing blondes or runaway brides?

    Terrorism (none / 0) (#2)
    by scarshapedstar on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 09:57:24 AM EST
    Is something that people with brown skin do.

    Parent
    Or.... (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by kdog on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 10:40:00 AM EST
    terrorism is only something used to justify foreign wars of occupation.

    Parent
    I (none / 0) (#4)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 10:48:04 AM EST
    don't see how we can draw any other conclusion than that.

    Parent
    A terrorist is an excuse to invade countries... (none / 0) (#15)
    by Bill Arnett on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 01:40:27 PM EST
    ...for their oil.

    A terrorist is also anyone that scares our spineless, gutless, coward of a president - so that makes A LOT of people terrorists.

    Parent

    Oil? (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:29:07 PM EST
    Try thinking logically about it.

    Likewise with a "war for oil." What would a real "war for oil" look like? Well, US troops would have sped to the oilfields with everything we had.

    Then, secure convoy routes would have been established to the nearest port - probably Basra - and the US Navy would essentially line the entire gulf with wall-to-wall warships in order to ensure the safe passage of US-flagged tankers into and out of the region.

    There would have been no overland campaign - what for? - and no fight for Baghdad. Fallujah and Mosul and all those other trouble spots would never even see an American boot. Why? No oil there. The US Military would do what it is extraordinarily well-trained to do: take and hold a very limited area, and supply secure convoys to and from this limited area on an ongoing basis.



    Parent
    ...for their oil (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:42:25 PM EST
    Are U.S. Corporations Going to "Win" The Iraq War?
    As I also detail in The Bush Agenda, U.S. oil companies - previously all but shutout of Iraq's oil sector, are on the verge of winning Iraq's oil prize.
    ...
    In August 2004, the U.S.-appointed interim Prime Minster of Iraq, Ayad Allawi (a former CIA operative), submitted guidelines for a new petroleum law recommending that the "Iraqi government disengage from running the oil sector" and that all undeveloped oil and gas fields in Iraq be turned over to private international oil companies using PSAs. Allawi's proposal is the basis of the current proposed oil law and could potentially give foreign companies control over approximately 87 percent of Iraq's oil.
    ...
    This month, Petroleum Economist Magazine reported that U.S. oil companies put passage of the oil law before security concerns as the deciding factor over their entry into Iraq. Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world, reserves that are cheap to exploit and worth literally trillions of dollars. U.S. oil companies want in, but on their own terms. They are, quite simply, trying to get the best deal possible out of a war-ravaged and occupied nation. They are also holding U.S. troops hostage. Let's face it, once they get their lucrative contracts, they will still demand protection to get to work. What better security force is there than 140,000 American troops?


    Parent
    Ho hum (1.00 / 1) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:47:40 PM EST
    The article you referred to is a pail of various claims, none supported.

    Now, the statement from Bill says that the war is about oil. That would mean that the invasion was about oil.

    The link I provided was a logical and straight forward description about what rational events would  have happened had the invasion been about oil.

    The comments you provide describe what has happened after the invasion, and how the US has tried to get the infrastructure jump started.

    And to be more factual, perhaps you can tell me about all of the money being made by Bush and Cheney's friends on Iraqi oil.

    The whole "oil" arguement is irrational and reeks of parnoid beliefs. If Bush and Cheney had been so involved, all they would have had to do was just cut a deal with Saddam, avoided war and reaped the profits.

    You need another arguement. That one is used up and juvnile to the max.

    Parent

    Jim (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 08:24:51 PM EST
    you know as well as everyone else reading here that I can bury you with more support for that articles' conclusions than you could read if you had three more lifetimes. And do it with bush administration and gop and right wing sources alone, much less with sources opposed to bush.

    Pull your head out, the fumes are getting to your brain. You need some oxygen.

    Parent

    Smile (none / 0) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 20, 2006 at 07:57:50 AM EST
    edger - That the left leaning members would support a left wing blog is not surprising.

    My point remains. If the invasion had been about oik it would have been done differently.

    Tell us again about 9/11 being scripted by the government. That brings a smile to my face.

    Parent

    Back to the grinning and giggling now, Jim? (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Wed Dec 20, 2006 at 08:04:11 AM EST
    Tell us again about 9/11 being scripted by the government.

    Did that yesterday here Jim. But as usual, it just whistled right past you.

    Parent

    Thanx, edger. i ain't playin' "prove it" (none / 0) (#31)
    by Bill Arnett on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 03:06:15 PM EST
    anymore.

    Too many people refuse to see what's right before their eyes.

    But it does look like Saddam will have the last laugh as "petro-dollars" cease to exist in favor of a more stable currency - the "petro-euros", which this invasion was also supposed to stop.

    Nice job, mr boosh.

    Parent

    aw - I googled crocker + terrorist (none / 0) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:50:47 PM EST
    and came up with 129,000 hits..

    Somebody must have been interested.

    Perhaps since he was a Moslem terrorist you weren't interested in looking for excuses for his actions?

    Parent

    oops that old devil typo (none / 0) (#11)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 12:56:52 PM EST
    uh make that since he wasn't a moslem terrorist

    Parent
    Yup and some of them were even about him (none / 0) (#16)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 01:42:13 PM EST
    War on Terror: Our Unilateral Pre-emptive Attacks are Terrorism
    Betty Crocker: Multi-Racial Woman of the Future.


    Parent
    - Demetrius "Van" Crocker (none / 0) (#20)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:21:51 PM EST
    Okay, so I was sloppy... So I googled good ole - Demetrius "Van" Crocker and only came up with 26,000...

    Still a chunk of hits about a rather low level nut case...

    And I note again. It must have been ignored by the Left because it had no Moslem terrorist to look for excuses for.

    Parent

    I have long maintained that fighting... (none / 0) (#13)
    by Bill Arnett on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 01:34:05 PM EST
    ...terrorism is a police matter.

    France, Spain, Germany, and many, many other countries have used their police forces to locate, investigate, arrest, confine, present evidence to a court while according the "terrorists" the same rights as any other criminal defendant, gained convictions the old-fashioned way - by proving their cases - and sending the offenders packing off to long prison terms.

    This same process worked very well the first time the WTC was bombed. We didn't illegally invade any nations, break numerous treaties, lie to our people and allies, destroy the efficiency of our military, bankrupt the country, and earn the enmity of most of the free world. And not one martyr was created.

    Boy, I sure miss the good old days when America knew how to get things done - competently.

    Bill - Yes the police approach (none / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 02:34:43 PM EST
    worked so well we were attacked on 9/11 after years of ever escaulating terror acts.

    Bush pointed out a very simple point in his 2003 SOTU. In the age of WMD's you cannot wait until the attack is imminent.

    At that point it is too late. You have just lost a city, or two.

    And you can't count on the sanity of your enemy, as we could with MAD and the Soviets. These killers believe that if they die they are on the way to paradise and 72 virgins.

    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#30)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 03:00:54 PM EST
    worked so well we were attacked on 9/11 after years of ever escaulating terror acts.

    Because the law-enforcer-in-chief blew off the intelligence and sat on his a$$.  And why not attack your hero's buddies the Saudis, then?

    Bush pointed out a very simple point in his 2003 SOTU. In the age of WMD's you cannot wait until the attack is imminent.

    Where is the next attack coming from?  Better kill everybody in countries with WMD (NK,Israel,India, Pakistan, UK, China, Russia, France,) just to be sure.

    you can't count on the sanity of your enemy

    Hell, we can't count on the sanity of our leaders.


    Parent

    Totally gone...there's no there there... (none / 0) (#32)
    by Bill Arnett on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 03:11:51 PM EST
    ...anymore. I have rarely, if ever, seen or heard of anyone so obsessively blinded by hate and prejudice as you-know-who.

    May I borrow that page back, aw? Please? PLEASE?

    Parent

    Aw (none / 0) (#35)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 03:37:56 PM EST
    maybe we can share it?

    Parent
    You got it! Alternate days ok? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Bill Arnett on Wed Dec 20, 2006 at 02:27:53 PM EST
    Thanks for opening the door. (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:19:08 PM EST
    The following proves just how very little you know of the subject. You write:

    Because the law-enforcer-in-chief blew off the intelligence and sat on his a$$.  And why not attack your hero's buddies the Saudis, then?

    The following is a definitive statement about who knew  what when.

    At the special meeting on July 5 (2001) were the FBI, Secret Service, FAA, Customs, Coast Guard, and Immigration. We told them that we thought a spectacular al Qaeda terrorist attack was coming in the near future." That had been had been George Tenet's language. "We asked that they take special measures to increase security and surveillance. Thus, the White House did ensure that domestic law enforcement including the FAA knew that the CSG believed that a major al Qaeda attack was coming, and it could be in the U.S., and did ask that special measures be taken."

    This was approximately 23 days before the now infamous dumb claim re the Presidental PDF. Surely you will not demonstrate your inability to think logically by claiming that Busg was unaware of what was going on and the warnings issye by Rice, his NSA.


    Parent

    Definitive Statement? (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:28:07 PM EST
    Condoleezza Rice, President Bush's national security adviser, spoke to reporters at the White House on Wednesday to discuss charges made by Richard A. Clarke, a former counterterrorism official......

    hahahahaha

    You lie like a rug.

    Parent

    No proof (none / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:59:36 PM EST
    You call me a liar and do nothing but quote from the link I provided.

    I must again bring forth your standard method of operation, again in your own words.

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM

    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

    You have defined yourself so well, squeaky. So very, very, very well.

    Parent

    Go hide, PPJ (none / 0) (#53)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 06:10:18 PM EST
    200 lb naked man coming.

    Parent
    You (none / 0) (#54)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 06:11:07 PM EST
    know you love it.  You asked for it.

    Parent
    All (none / 0) (#40)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:28:15 PM EST
    that proves is that you get your information from the propaganda network, FOX.

    Parent
    The meeting happened. It is real. (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:54:53 PM EST
    Yet you want to deny and attack the messenger as if doing so would make it not true.

    The world doesn't work like.

    You again retreat into an untenable position.

    Parent

    I am retreating nowhere. (none / 0) (#55)
    by aw on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 06:12:53 PM EST
    You're nearly there, Jim (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 03:29:46 PM EST
    we were attacked on 9/11 after years of ever escaulating terror acts.

    One more step and you'll have it all figured out, Jim.

    If successive US administrations with their warped greed driven foreign policies had not continually escalated those terror attacks over so many years there would have been no reason for the 9/11 retaliation, now would there?

    An examination of the details and consequences of that theme provides a startling object lesson in the pitfalls and conceit of an interventionist foreign policy.

    Of course, if you do lean towards wild-eyed paranoia and conspiracy theories you might start believing in great ideological struggles 'we did nothing to invite'.

    We have entered a great ideological conflict we did nothing to invite.
    George W. Bush, State of the Union - January 31,2006

    Oh, btw, it's ONE 72 year old virgin. NOT 72 virgins. No wonder you haven't moved to Iran yet.

    Parent

    Either way (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:49:40 PM EST
    I would be faced with a challenge I would happily accept...

    Parent
    One 72 year old virgin (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 06:33:14 PM EST
    is a challenge??? Well...ummm...wow. What more can be said?

    Parent
    Forgot one thing (none / 0) (#50)
    by Sailor on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 05:55:31 PM EST
    Bush pointed out a very simple point in his 2003 SOTU. In the age of WMD's you cannot wait until the attack is imminent.
    HE LIED!!! There were no WMDs and he knew it.

    Hey, you neoconmen moved the goalposts to 'remove a dictator' and 'bring stability to the ME' (BTW, how's that working out!?), you can't move them back to WMDs.

    We know you love torture, but it is against the GenCons, and bush says we follow the GenCons.

    Parent

    Jim (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Tue Dec 19, 2006 at 03:31:29 PM EST
    Only you and gabe still buy that wot fantasy.

    Time to rejoin the real world.