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Church-State Separation: What The First Amendment Says and What It Means

One of the many examples of Right Wing distortion and disingenuousness comes when the concept of church-state separation is discussed. You have all heard this one -- "The separation of Church and State does not appear in the Constitution." The argument is that Thomas Jefferson invented the concept in an 1802 letter to a church group. This is, in a word, false. The First Amendment states expressly that the State can not be involved in religion:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .

Did anyone miss that? Congress (which means all government through the incorporation doctrine of the Fourteenth Amendment) shall make NO LAW respecting establishment of religion. One more time, NO LAW. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. Any ambiguity there? Is the plain meaning of the text in doubt?

But where does it say church/state separation? Repeat and rinse. NO LAW. The fact that the State can make no law on establishment of religion separates the State from religion absolutely and entirely. That is what the text plainly and unmistakably says. Now we all know the Supreme Court, in acts of activism that please the Right, decided that NO LAW did not really mean NO LAW. And we live with the Lemon test, more or less, today. But make no mistake, the First Amendment expressly separates that State from religion by prohibiting all laws regarding establishment of religion.

More.

The first line of argument that the Right presents to counter the plain meaning of the First Amendment is to say that the purpose of the Establishment Clause was to prohibit the establishment of a State religion. According to this argument, other than establishing a State religion, the State could makes laws on religion.

Of course, the plain text renders this argument absurd. The language required to do what the Right argues would be quite simple - "Congress shall not establish a State religion." But the First Amendment does not say this. It expressly prohibits the State from making laws regarding the Establish of RELIGION, period. That is ALL religion.

But let's pretend for a moment that the text was, actually what it is not, ambiguous. Let's consider what such an interpretation of the Establishment Clause would mean. It would mean that Congress could fund religions just so long as it did not establish one State religion. It could choose to fund religious schools, religious missions, the prostyletizing of religions throughout the nation and the world, etc. It could celebrate religions.

Could it ban certain religions? Not even under this interpretation as the Free Exercise clause prohibits government interference with the exercise of religion. But this interpretation WOULD permit State promotion of religion.

This view is so extreme that is gets no serious hearing in the Supreme Court. Not even Scalia would buy into this one.

So what have the Courts done? The modern case law begins with Everson:

This Court has previously recognized that the provisions of the First Amendment, in the drafting and adoption of which Madison and Jefferson played such leading roles, had the same objective and were intended to provide the same protection against governmental intrusion on religious liberty as the Virginia statute. Reynolds v. United States, supra, 98 U.S. at page 164; Watson v. Jones, 13 Wall. 679; Davis v. Beason, 133 U.S. 333, 342 , 10 S.Ct. 299, 300. . . . The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.' Reynolds v. United States, supra, 98 U.S. at page 164.

The language of Everson is quite absolute, as is the language of the Establishment clause. But the result was not quite so absolute, the reimbursement of certain expenses related to attendance at parochial schools was upheld. The dissents, among the dissenters were Frankfurter and Jackson, were vehement that the majority had not enforced the the absolute separation of church and state the text of the First Amendment compelled. Jackson, joined by Frankfurter wrote:

The Court's holding is that this taxpayer has no grievance because the state has decided to make the reimbursement a public purpose and therefore we are bound to regard it as such. I agree that this Court has left, and always should leave to each state, great latitude in deciding for itself, in the light of its own conditions, what shall be public purposes in its scheme of things. It may socialize utilities and economic enterprises and make taxpayers' business out of what conventionally had been private business. It may make public business of individual welfare, health, education, entertainment or security. But it cannot make public business of religious worship or instruction, or of attendance at religious institutions of any character. There is no answer to the proposition more fully expounded by Mr. Justice RUTLEDGE that the effect of the religious freedom Amendment to our Constitution was to take every form of propagation of religion out of the realm of things which could directly or indirectly be made public business and thereby be supported in whole or in part at taxpayers' expense. That is a difference which the Constitution sets up between religion and almost every other subject matter of legislation, a difference which goes to the very root of religious freedom and which the Court is overlooking today. This freedom was first in the Bill of Rights because it was first in the forefathers' minds; it was set forth in absolute terms, and its strength is its rigidity. It was intended not only to keep the states' hands out of religion, but to keep religion's hands off the state, and above all, to keep bitter religious controversy out of public life by denying to every denomination any advantage from getting control of public policy or the public purse. Those great ends I cannot but think are immeasurably compromised by today's decision.

You can have no doubt that I believe the dissent had the better argument. But for the Right, even the majority is objectionable.

And object they did. So much so that not 25 years later, not even the rule of the majority in Everson survived intact, instead the Lemon test was devised:

The language of the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment is at best opaque, particularly when compared with other portions of the Amendment. Its authors did not simply prohibit the establishment of a state church or a state religion, an area history shows they regarded as very important and fraught with great dangers. Instead they commanded that there should be "no law respecting an establishment of religion." A law may be one "respecting" the forbidden objective while falling short of its total realization. A law "respecting" the proscribed result, that is, the establishment of religion, is not always easily identifiable as one violative of the Clause. A given law might not establish a state religion but nevertheless be one "respecting" that end in the sense of being a step that could lead to such establishment and hence offend the First Amendment.

In the absence of precisely stated constitutional prohibitions, we must draw lines with reference to the three main evils against which the Establishment Clause was intended to afford protection: "sponsorship, financial support, and active involvement of the sovereign in religious activity." Walz v. Tax Commission, 397 U.S. 664, 668 (1970).

Every analysis in this area must begin with consideration of the cumulative criteria developed by the Court over many years. Three such tests may be gleaned from our cases. First, the statute must have a secular legislative purpose; second, its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion, Board of Education v. Allen, 392 U.S. 236, 243 (1968); finally, the statute must not foster "an excessive government entanglement with religion." Walz, supra, at 674.

It should come as no surprise that this monstrosity of an opinion was authored by Chief Justice Burger, who surely must go down as one of the dimmest bulbs ever to sit on the Court.

After this, a new strain was developed by the Right Wing of the Court. Justice Scalia's dissent in Lee exemplifies the argument:

Three Terms ago, I joined an opinion recognizing that the Establishment Clause must be construed in light of the "[g]overnment policies of accommodation, acknowledgment, and support for religion [that] are an accepted part of our political and cultural heritage." That opinion affirmed that "the meaning of the Clause is to be determined by reference to historical practices and understandings." It said that "[a] test for implementing the protections of the Establishment Clause that, if applied with consistency, would invalidate longstanding traditions cannot be a proper reading of the Clause." County of Allegheny v. American Civil Liberties Union, Greater Pittsburgh Chapter, 492 U.S. 573, 657 , 670 (1989) (KENNEDY, J., concurring in judgment in part and dissenting in part). These views, of course, prevent me from joining today's opinion, which is conspicuously bereft of any reference to history. In holding that the Establishment Clause prohibits invocations and benedictions at public school graduation ceremonies, the Court - with nary a mention that it is doing so - lays waste a tradition that is as old as public school graduation ceremonies themselves, and that is a component of an even more longstanding American tradition of nonsectarian prayer to God at public celebrations generally. As its instrument of destruction, the bulldozer of its social engineering, the Court invents a boundless, and boundlessly manipulable, test of psychological coercion, which promises to do for the Establishment Clause what the Durham rule did for the insanity defense. See Durham v. United States, 94 U.S. App. D.C. 228, 214 F.2d 862 (1954). Today's opinion shows more forcefully than volumes of argumentation why our Nation's protection, that fortress which is our Constitution, cannot possibly rest upon the changeable philosophical predilections of the Justices of this Court, but must have deep foundations in the historic practices of our people.

Talk about changing philosphical predilections - here is the supposed textualist making no reference whatsoever to not only the actual text of the Constitution but to the actual words of the Framers. So there you have the new line of attack - the "history" argument. That Scalia cites not one jot of history to support his views is entirely predictable. For to do so would destroy his argument.

Similarly in the Alleghany County, the Court contradicted its Pawtucket decision which allowed a creche display, but also strayed from the text of the Constitution, indeed even from the Lemon test, following an "endorsement" test:

In the course of adjudicating specific cases, this Court has come to understand the Establishment Clause to mean that government may not promote or affiliate itself with any religious doctrine or organization, 40 may not discriminate among persons on the basis of their religious beliefs and practices, 41 may not delegate a governmental power to a religious institution, 42 and may not involve itself too deeply in such an institution's affairs. 43 Although "the myriad, subtle ways in which Establishment Clause values can be eroded," Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S., at 694 (O'CONNOR, J., concurring), are not susceptible to a single verbal formulation, this Court has attempted to encapsulate the essential precepts of the Establishment Clause. Thus, in Everson v. Board of Education of Ewing, 330 U.S. 1 (1947), the Court gave this often-repeated summary . . . In Lemon v. Kurtzman, supra, the Court sought to refine these principles by focusing on three "tests" for determining whether a government practice violates the Establishment Clause. Under the Lemon analysis, a statute or practice which touches upon religion, if it is to be permissible under the Establishment Clause, must have a secular purpose; it must neither advance nor inhibit religion in its principal or primary effect; and it must not foster an excessive entanglement with religion. 403 U.S., at 612 -613. This trilogy of tests has been applied regularly in the Court's later Establishment Clause cases. 44 Our subsequent decisions further have refined the definition of governmental action that unconstitutionally advances religion. In recent years, we have paid particularly close attention to whether the challenged governmental practice either has the purpose or effect of "endorsing" religion, a concern that has long had a place in our Establishment Clause jurisprudence. See Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421, 436 (1962). . . Of course, the word "endorsement" is not self-defining. Rather, it derives its meaning from other words that this Court has found useful over the years in interpreting the Establishment Clause. Thus, it has been noted that the prohibition against governmental endorsement of religion "preclude[s] government from conveying or attempting to convey a message that religion or a particular religious belief is favored or preferred." Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S., at 70 . . . Whether the key word is "endorsement," "favoritism," or "promotion," the essential principle remains the same. The [492 U.S. 573, 594] Establishment Clause, at the very least, prohibits government from appearing to take a position on questions of religious belief or from "making adherence to a religion relevant in any way to a person's standing in the political community." Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S., at 687 (O'CONNOR, J., concurring).

At the very least indeed. Actually it says the State shall make NO LAW, not even ones that fo not endorse religion. but we have strayed far from the text of the Constitution. the Judicial Activism applauded by the Right has eviscerated the plain menaing of the Establishment Clause, its purpose as stated by Jefferson and Madison and the settled precedents.

The irony is of course that the Right here endorses judicial activism, though of course they cloak it in "history" as this dissent attests:

The majority holds that the County of Allegheny violated the Establishment Clause by displaying a creche in the county courthouse, because the "principal or primary effect" of the display is to advance religion within the meaning of Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602, 612 -613 (1971). This view of the Establishment Clause reflects an unjustified hostility toward religion, a hostility inconsistent with our history and our precedents, and I dissent from this holding. The creche display is constitutional, and, for the same reasons, the display of a menorah by the city of Pittsburgh is permissible as well. On this latter point, I concur in the result, but not the reasoning, of Part VI of JUSTICE BLACKMUN'S opinion.

You see the demogoguery in this? Enforcing the church-state separation is a manifestation of "hostility towards religion"!! What nonsense! Were Jackson and Frnakfurter hostile towards religion? Becuase this case would have been decided 9-0 by the Everson Court. What hogwash. More:

. . . Substantial revision of our Establishment Clause doctrine may be in order; but it is unnecessary to undertake that task today, for even the Lemon test, when applied with proper sensitivity to our traditions and our case law, supports the conclusion that both the creche and the menorah are permissible displays in the context of the holiday season.

The only Lemon factor implicated in these cases directs us to inquire whether the "principal or primary effect" of the challenged government practice is "one that neither advances nor inhibits religion." 403 U.S., at 612 . The requirement of neutrality inherent in that formulation has sometimes been stated in categorical terms. For example, in Everson v. Board of Education of Ewing, 330 U.S. 1 (1947), the first case in our modern Establishment Clause jurisprudence, Justice Black wrote that the Clause forbids laws "which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another." Id., at 15-16. We have stated that government "must be neutral in matters of religious theory, doctrine, and practice" and "may not aid, foster, or promote one religion or religious theory against another or even against the militant opposite." Epperson v. Arkansas, 393 U.S. 97, 103 -104 (1968). And we have spoken of a prohibition against conferring an "`imprimatur of state approval'" on religion, Mueller v. Allen, supra, at 399 (quoting Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U.S. 263, 274 (1981)), or "favor[ing] the adherents of any sect or religious organization," Gillette v. United States, 401 U.S. 437, 450 (1971).

These statements must not give the impression of a formalism that does not exist. Taken to its logical extreme, some of the language quoted above would require a relentless extirpation of all contact between government and religion. But that is not the history or the purpose of the Establishment Clause. Government policies of accommodation, acknowledgment, and support for religion are an accepted part of our political and cultural heritage. As Chief Justice Burger wrote for the Court in Walz v. Tax Comm'n of New York City, 397 U.S. 664 (1970), we must be careful to avoid "[t]he hazards of placing too much weight on a few words or phrases of the Court," and so we have "declined to construe the Religion Clauses with a literalness that would undermine the ultimate constitutional objective as illuminated by history." Id., at 670-671.

In other words, they have ignored the text of the Establishment Clause. Judicial activists indeed! More:

Rather than requiring government to avoid any action that acknowledges or aids religion, the Establishment Clause permits government some latitude in recognizing and accommodating the central role religion plays in our society. Lynch v. Donnelly, supra, at 678; Walz v. Tax Comm'n of New York City, supra, at 669. Any approach less sensitive to our heritage would border on latent hostility toward religion, as it would require government in all its multifaceted roles to acknowledge only the secular, to the exclusion and so to the detriment of the religious. A categorical approach would install federal courts as jealous guardians of an absolute "wall of separation," sending a clear message of disapproval. In this century, as the modern administrative state expands to touch the lives of its citizens in such diverse ways and redirects their financial choices through programs of its own, it is difficult to maintain the fiction that requiring government to avoid all assistance to religion can in fairness be viewed as serving the goal of neutrality.

There you have it. The text means nothing. The intent of the Framers means nothing. Demagoguery abounds, for if the State does not involve itself in religion then it is hostile to religion. Hogwash.

Let us be clear. The Establisment clause says NO LAW respecting establishment of religion. Its meaning is unambiguous. No State involvement means neither endorsement nor hostility. It means absolute non-involvement. Complete spearation. Think of it this way, if the State is asolutely prohibited then no hostility can be inferred. they are prohibited from acting in any way towards religion.

Now my theory of constitutional interpretation permits an originalist approach that permits the Constitution to live in order to serve the underlying purposes of the Constitution as a whole. But no one can argue that the erosion of church-state separation serves the purpose of the Establishment clause. Indeed, it is clearly undermining the purpose.

But pragmatic realism abounds. The disingenuousness is palpable. The express mandate of separating the State from religion contained in the First Amendment is utterly ignored. It presents a serious threat.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Good post (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by eric on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:07:05 PM EST
    However, in truth, the right wingers will look at this argument (which is very well done, BTW) and just shrug their shoulders.

    The problem is that those that don't see the need for a separation of church and state are to simple to understand your argument.  They don't even value the logic of it.  After all, the religious faithful Christian crowd value things like faith, not logic.

    The only argument that I have heard that does actually get a little traction with these people is a normative one.  Specifically, one needs to appeal to their distaste for religions not their own.  If, for example, you can make them realize that while today they might have some state-sponsored Christianity, tomorrow, when somebody else is in charge, you might have state sponsored Hindu or Buddhism or Islam, etc.  It just depends on who is in charge.  Give them an example of how some school board somewhere is spending their tax money on prayer mats or statues of a Hindu God for display in the school cafeteria.  Little blond Johnnie is forced to look at Vishnu while eating his lunch!

    That doesn't seem right, does it?

    Of course, there are those that would say that not only does the Constitution allow state sponsored religion, but that religion must be Christianity because that's what Pat Robertson told them.  In that case, all is lost, anyway.

    Don't forget "intolerance" (none / 0) (#1)
    by aw on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:01:45 PM EST
    Enforcing the church-state separation is a manifestation of "hostility towards religion"!!

    I've been hearing that quite a lot lately.

    It's sort of a twist... (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 06:39:21 AM EST
    ...on the old 'emboldening the terrists' theme. Trying to turn the tables and put their opponents on the defensive because the justifications don't hold water?

    Parent
    Well, you DO want god to win don't you? (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:20:45 PM EST
    Absolute statements are always wrong (none / 0) (#2)
    by roy on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:28:11 PM EST
    I'm a huge fan of separation of C&C, but I have to doubt the absolute interpretation.  I'm a raging layman, but as I understand it, none of the other singled-out rights are absolute.  They just put tough balancing requirements in place.

    Hence, although "congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech", there are plenty of restrictions on slander, obscenity, and use of copyrighted material.

    They can supposedly make no law "abridging the right of the people to peaceably assemble", yet it's illegal to assemble in the middle of a highway.

    Are all of those unconstitutional too?


    Where (none / 0) (#3)
    by aw on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:39:45 PM EST
    does it end, then.  Just where you you draw the line?

    Parent
    Heck if I know (none / 0) (#4)
    by roy on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 11:52:27 PM EST
    But the idea that the line is drawn aaaaaaaalll the way over to one side doesn't fit with what I've read about how the Constitution restricts government action.

    It doesn't really fit with common sense, either.  Most people want the government to be able to ban human sacrifices in religious ceremonies.  At least if the sacrificee doesn't consent.

    Lawyers and judges throw around "strict scrutiny", "rational basis", and "intermediate scrutiny".  I think the answer has something to do with those.

    Parent

    Most people want (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:05:48 AM EST
    Banning murder is not making law about religion.

    Think logically.

    Parent

    Thinking logically (none / 0) (#7)
    by roy on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:27:30 AM EST
    By the same reasoning, funneling money to schools is not making a law about religion, it's making a law about education.

    More concretely, I'm still curious about your opinion on slander, obscenity, and copyright laws.  If these are constitutional, how do you reconcile it with the absolutist interpretation of nearly identical text in the religion clause?

    Parent

    Funneling money to religious schools (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:30:10 AM EST
    is very much about religion.

    Are you thinking of the idea of neutrality for funding?

    I refer you to Justice Jackson above.

    Parent

    Prior restraint (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:31:01 AM EST
    You can slander, make obscene statements and violate copyrights and suffer the consequences.

    Parent
    Does that count as absolute? (none / 0) (#12)
    by roy on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:23:30 AM EST
    Are you saying that slander (and so on) laws are constitutional because they only abridge freedom of speech after the speech has occurred?  

    If that's that's the reason slander laws are permitted, then  applying the same standard to religion the government should be able to criminalize Judaism, so long as they only arrest people after their B'nai Mitzvah.  As in "you can be Jewish and suffer the consequences".  I know that wouldn't fly, so there must be another difference.  The difference does not appear to be the text of the constitution, which is nearly identical for speech and for religion.  

    Or are you saying that non-prior-restraint slander laws simply do not count as an abridgment of freedom of speech?  That strikes me as bizarre, but if so, I suspect any attempt to explain it to me would just be a very slow failure.  

    And yes, I know prior restraint is a real factor in determining if a law is constitutional.  It just doesn't suffice to reconcile freedom of religion receiving absolute protection while freedom of speech does not.

    Parent

    Oxymoron (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 06:04:27 AM EST
    Abridging AFTER.

    Anyway, I was just playing lawyer on you but also making a point.

    The state can not prohibit speech.

    The state cannot  make law regarding establishing a religion.

    Both are true.

    you argue libel laws mean otherwise. Not really. You  can pay for the damages you cause. The state can not stop you from saying it.

    Does it serve the purpose of the First to allow libel laws? Balnced by the Times v. Sullivan test it does.

    Is there some need for balance on the establishment clause? No.

    I refer you again to Justice Jackson.

    Parent

    That (none / 0) (#6)
    by aw on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:10:04 AM EST
    makes me think of the line from "Hair":  Do whatever you want to do, be whatever you want to be, just as long as you don't hurt anybody.

    Those restrictions you mentioned above are in place so nobody gets hurt, gets her own civil rights trampled.

    You knock down that wall and everybody has a grievance--everybody.

    Parent

    Not ambiguous (none / 0) (#10)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:38:18 AM EST
    Roy, I am no history buff nor constitutional scholar but from what I remember the main reason the English came to America and fought a revolution was to form a government that was entirely independent from religion.

    The constitution is not ambiguous on that either as
    BTD and his references make clear.

     Your examples are not relevant as property and public safety enter into free speech limitations.

    The only thing that makes church/state division ambiguous are Religious lobbies. If they amass enough power they just do as they wish, as BTD points out with Scalia. He writes:


    Talk about changing philosphical predilections - here is the supposed textualist [Scalia] making no reference whatsoever to not only the actual text of the Constitution but [no reference] to the actual words of the Framers. So there you have the new line of attack - the "history" argument. That Scalia cites not one jot of history to support his views is entirely predictable. For to do so would destroy his argument.

    It comes as no surprise that this is a hot topic these days. The republicans have made a formula, quite cynically I believe, that funnels the resources of Christianism. With this comes blocks of votes and tons of money because the flocks will do whatever their religious leader tells them to.

    The rise of Fascism has historically benefited from manipulating and directing the masses through  the mouthpiece of organized religion. Not to say that this administration is Fascist, but they have  certainly learned how to maintain power by using techniques distilled from fascist playbooks.

    Parent

    No, squeaky. (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:28:44 AM EST
    They did not come to have freedom of religion. They came to have freedom to practice their religion. And they were quite intolerant about other's religion.

    Read some history. That freedom to practice their religion is what the constitution was protecting. Study MD, study MA, RI and VA.

    What freedom of religion has been twisted to is freedom from religion.

    There is a big difference between having the freedom to practice what you want, and not having religion mentioned at all. Which of course has led to no manger scenes, prayers in school, etc. Which has led to the inevitable backlash from people who want to be free to practice their religion.

    And so we have come full circle.

    And, as usual, the elitist absolutists of the Left are always in full cry that they should tell everyone what they so do instead of just saying.

    Go ahead,you have your religion and I'll have mine.


    Parent
    "Freedom from religion" (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by roy on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 11:42:55 AM EST
    The phrase gets thrown around a lot, but I have a hunch it's just a canard.  Can you give an example?  A government action that you interpret as forcing freedom from religion, that hasn't been undone on First Amendment grounds?

    Just to clarify the question, a public library employee was fired for wearing a cross to work.  That would be an example, but the courts overruled the library, so it's actually an example of the courts protecting freedom of religion.

    Fair warning, if you give an example of courts preventing the government from endorsing a religion (cough school sponsored prayer cough) and call it forcing freedom from religion, you'll be called on it.

    So what's you example?


    Parent

    Roy the (none / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 07:13:27 AM EST
    chilling effect of knowing that the ACLU will sue, all by itself, prevents any local governments, schools, etc. from doing the manger scenes, etc.

    Winning a court fight and destroying the city budget is a hollow victory.

    Parent

    Thanks for clarifying (none / 0) (#98)
    by roy on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 09:46:20 AM EST
    Your definition of "freedom of religion" includes spending tax money to endorse a particular religion.  You and I certainly aren't in agreement over that, but at least the nature of our disagreement is more clear.

    Do you think "freedom of religion" would also encompass spending tax money to build minarets and pay a muezzin to call Muslims to prayer?

    Parent

    Missed it again. (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:47:32 AM EST
    Those "point" things are so hard to see, aren't they?

    Parent
    Please (none / 0) (#19)
    by scarshapedstar on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 10:38:33 AM EST
    What freedom of religion has been twisted to is freedom from religion. There is a big difference between having the freedom to practice what you want, and not having religion mentioned at all. Which of course has led to no manger scenes, prayers in school, etc. Which has led to the inevitable backlash from people who want to be free to practice their religion.

    Show me where the government has gone to an individual's house and forced them to take down their manger scene, or told a child that he cannot pray in school.

    Parent

    scar (none / 0) (#92)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 07:05:48 AM EST
    As you know, the issue is "public."

    The question is, why can't the public enjoy a manger  scene on public property at Christmas? The answer appears to be that the issue has been twisted into "freedom from religion."

    My point remains. A little tolerance of each other's views would go a long way.

    Yet those who preach tolerance and diversity are the most likely to deny others their rightd.

    Parent

    Those "points" (none / 0) (#94)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 07:15:10 AM EST
    are just so incredibly hard to grasp, aren't they? Heh.

    Parent
    You've got the talking points down, but... (none / 0) (#24)
    by eric on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:20:28 PM EST
    That freedom to practice their religion is what the constitution was protecting.

    I don't think you are right, but let's assume that you are.  It leads to the same conclusion in the end.  Ultimately, somebody is picking the religion.  When they do, they are picking a religion, "their religion", as you say.

    Once that religion is picked, it is restricting others' freedom of religion.  If you and your buddies pick religion X and I want to practice religion Y, your imposition of religion X is imposing on my freedom of religion. See?  

    Freedom from government sponsored religion is the same thing as freedom of religion for those that didn't get to pick.

    Parent

    Great Post BTD! (none / 0) (#11)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:42:14 AM EST
    Thanks for laying all that out so clearly. it is quite timely and dovetails nicely with your other recent posts. Wallis, Obama, etc.

    History (none / 0) (#15)
    by atlanta lawyer on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:11:49 AM EST
    squeaky,
    I don't think you can support the notion that the English came here to have a government with no religion.    By the time we got around to writing a constitution, there were so many (mostly Christian) sects, there would have been no way to have a union with an established union. The theory of church/state seperation was out there, and practiced by some commonwealths, most notably Virginia.  But many Constitutional Delagates left Philadephia and went home to states that had, truly established religions, that is, the tax money supported say, the Congreational Church,  or Episcopal, some had laws mandating attendance, etc. Massachusetts and Connecticut for example I'm sure had established churches well into the 19th century.
    Now, obviously, "we've come a long way baby", in  terms of Constitutional thougth, including the 14th Amendment and incorporation doctine etc, and I'm generally in favor of a "living Constitution" and the seperation of church and state.  But to paint a picture that in the early days, in practice, there was a high wall of seperation in every hill and valley of the union is just bad history.
    What doesn't make sense to me is the idea that those of faith either should have no sayso in how we govern ourselves, or should somehow, in their minds, make a complete seperation b/t their religious and political beliefs or be exluded from public political debate. and I read that position here on TL a good deal.  It seem circular to me.  There seems to be a subtext, if not a presupposition to that argument, that religion, religious thought and belief, is largely bad, and only sometimes and by luck lines up with the good, and presupposes a materialistic (I mean that descriptively and philosophically) world, and then makes the political judgement that religious thoughts and those that have them should have no voice in the public political forum.  To me, those assumptions about religion and the materialistic world view itself cannot be proven logically or empirically anymore than than religious claims can, are are therefore, just as open to claims of subjectivism. Neither side, IMHO, can claim a high ground, logically, by which to judge the issue.  If it's a matter of faith to believe in God, spirit, etc, because we can't prove it,  logically it has to be just as much a matter of faith to deny, categorically and absolutely, the existence of such since we can't prove the absence of spirit either. For either side then, to claim that the other side should be excluded from the public debate about politics, or to say that you can only participate if your politics isn't in anyway formed by your worldview about the nature of existence and the universe and the meaning of it all (religion or materialism) certainly isn't very tolerance or for that matter logical.

    It will always be circular (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by aw on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:28:51 AM EST
    What doesn't make sense to me is the idea that those of faith either should have no sayso in how we govern ourselves, or should somehow, in their minds, make a complete seperation b/t their religious and political beliefs or be exluded from public political debate. and I read that position here on TL a good deal.  It seem circular to me.

    It will always be circular, because no one is saying that, but lots of people seem to be inferring that.  Separation of church and state does not mean separation of faith and political beliefs.  No one is telling anyone how to think.  On my part, I just want them to get out of my face and not use our political system to impose their beliefs on the rest of us.

    Parent

    thanks AL (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:19:46 PM EST
    Sorry for being unclear. Your thoughtful comment shows that you have a better grip on early american history than I do as my scholarship is rather poor in that subject.

    My point was that the reason, as ppj points out, the English came here was to practice religion having the government mandate how that should be done. It makes sense that early local communities formed around a religion and use tax money to fund the church. There was no conflict in those communities because they were homogeneous.

    When the representitaves of those communities met in Philadelphia they evidentially realized that since their religious practices differed the constitution had include a separation of church and state otherwise they would have the same problem that they had in England. There would be conflicts.

    I imagine that, over time, as the states became more heterogeneous they too had to stop favoring one religion over another and implementing a separation of church and state.

    I am all for a living constitution. The idea of originalism ala Scalia is preposterous. It is not possible to act or think as anyone in the distant past. The present and near past is all we have and everything we do reflects the flavors of the now, as Scalia's actions clearly reflect irrespective of what he say he is doing. That is not to say that writings and oral histories from the past are irrelevant and not to be studied and considered as they most certainly inform the present.

    ..that religion, religious thought and belief, is largely bad, and only sometimes and by luck lines up with the good, and presupposes a materialistic (I mean that descriptively and philosophically) world, and then makes the political judgment that religious thoughts and those that have them should have no voice in the public political forum.

    Many do think that religion is bad or that it brings the worst out in people. The problem is that even if religion good it cannot be distilled into any one law except that all are free to practice as they wish.

    We are not arguing whether god exists, or not, but whether or not my god or your god (or godlessness) has any place in government. The framers knew both from their experience in England and the the early days in America that religion and government do not mix well. The potential for violence and oppression in the name of religion is too great for it to have any place in governance.
     

    Parent

    Virginia (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 11:14:24 AM EST
    The model for the First Amendment.

    Thanks for the clincher on my argument.

    Parent

    Farthest to the right etc (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:22:45 PM EST
    When you're "the most pro-business, hawkish" etc of anyone at this blog, chances are you probobly see   yourself also as the most pro-religion and liable  to detect the opposite position "here at TL a good  deal" even when it dosnt exist.

    Heh (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:52:04 PM EST
    Me most pro-religion. Sure. Why not?

    Don't tell theo though

    Parent

    Hey! (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 12:53:26 PM EST
    Sssshhh.

    Parent
    Plain English (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:01:02 PM EST
    I'm certainly no Consititional scholar but this conversation has made me think about the plain english of this:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
    To me, in plain English, this means: Congress shall make no law saying "this is the religion you will believe in" or "only Hindu temples shall be listed in the yellow pages."

    If so, wouldn't that mean a city or county or state, for example, who wanted to make Vishnu part of its official seal or something, should be able to do so, as they are not congress and/or not making a law?

    I say this in the context of what some other posters above had said regarding the early days of this nation, ie., the constitution was written during a time when each little hamlet had it's own religious beliefs and the only way the disparate groups could be unified in any fashion was if the federal gvt stayed out of their (the local gvt's) business.

    Incorporation Doctrine (none / 0) (#29)
    by eric on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:12:35 PM EST
    If so, wouldn't that mean a city or county or state, for example, who wanted to make Vishnu part of its official seal or something, should be able to do so, as they are not congress and/or not making a law?

    Certain parts of the Bill of Rights have been found to apply to states via the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.  This is known as the Incorporation Doctrine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorporation_(Bill_of_Rights)

    Parent

    eric (none / 0) (#32)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:24:07 PM EST
    Well, now, there you go, thanks.

    My plain English was reasonably good, it's just that that plain English has been changed to non-plain English by the supremes such that "Congress shall make no law..." really means "Any gvt entity shall make no law..."

    Ok, that's clear, how about the next word: "law?"

    An image on a gvt seal or flag or something is not making a law, right?

    Parent

    The 14th Amendment (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:34:45 PM EST
    The key language -

    Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Ok my bold is actually not he key language as interpreted by the SCOTUS, which read privileges and immunities out fo the Constitution. The Slaughterhouse Cases.

    That interpretation violated the plain text of the Amendment which clearly provided for incorporation of FEDERAL rights due to the reference to "citizens of the United States."

    Faced with this historic error, the SCOTUS did  this in Gitlow:

    For present purposes we may and do assume that freedom of speech and of the press-which are protected by the First Amendment from abridgment by Congress-are among the fundamental personal rights and 'liberties' protected by the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment from impairment by the States.


    Parent
    P & I (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by eric on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:46:41 PM EST
    Ok my bold is actually not he key language as interpreted by the SCOTUS, which read privileges and immunities out fo the Constitution.

    An excellent point, and one that many don't seem to appreciate.  What a travesty it was when the "privileges and immunities" clause was so terribly misinterpreted!  The Court has spent the last 130+ years jumping through hoops trying to remedy this mistake with the due process clause.  Bleh.

    Parent

    Madison's original proposal (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:27:18 PM EST
    for a bill of rights provision concerning religion read: ''The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.''

    1  The language was altered in the House to read: ''Congress shall make no law establishing religion, or to prevent the free exercise thereof, or to infringe the rights of conscience.''

    2  In the Senate, the section adopted read: ''Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith, or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion, . . .''

    3  It was in the conference committee of the two bodies, chaired by Madison, that the present language was written with its some what more indefinite ''respecting'' phraseology.

    --Findlaw: First Amendment: Religion and Expression: Religion - An Overview

    make Vishnu part of its official seal or something

    The 1st also prohibits abridging freedom of speech.

    Parent

    edger (none / 0) (#34)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:32:26 PM EST
    make Vishnu part of its official seal or something

    The 1st also prohibits abridging freedom of speech.

    I'm missing your point on this one...

    Parent

    Isn't (none / 0) (#36)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:38:23 PM EST
    something like whether or not Vishnu can be made part of a state official seal a free speech issue?

    I was more asking a question than making a point. Sorry for not being clearer.

    IOW it appears to me that the 1st does constrain states, as freedom of speech is guaranteed but not limited just to Congress, no?

    Parent

    Maybe clearer (none / 0) (#37)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:44:15 PM EST
    I don't see why a state could NOT include Vishnu, or a peace symbol, or even a swastika in it's official seal.

    Anny of them might cause riots, but I don't see how it could be illegal.

    Parent

    law (none / 0) (#43)
    by eric on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:52:42 PM EST
    I don't know of any particular case on point here, but I do think that a govermental entity adopting a religious symbol would not pass scrutiny.  Any sort of endorsement or resolution supporting somthing like this is as much a law as anything else.  I think that "law" is perhaps being interpreted a bit too narrowly in your analysis.

    Parent
    eric (none / 0) (#53)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:13:37 PM EST
    Fair enough, I don't know either (obviously) I was going back to my "plain english" analysis.

    Parent
    I'm not interpreting (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:29:44 PM EST
    I'm asking... I am not a lawyer. I wrote the LSAT about 23 years ago and fell in about the 95th percentile, but decided not to go into law, partly beause I'm not good enough at the interpretations, IMO. Just at the questions. ;-)

    Parent
    edger (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:54:53 PM EST
    Ahh, yes, now I get your point. I'm with you. I also don't see why a state, county, city, whatever, that wanted to, shouldn't be able to include such a symbol in its official seal.

    Parent
    Edger (none / 0) (#40)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:49:53 PM EST
    I'm still not clear, are you saying that having Vishnu on a gvt seal restricts the free speech of, say, Sikhs, who do not have a symbol of their religion on that seal?

    Parent
    No... the reverse (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:52:40 PM EST
    ...I'm asking doesn't the 1st's freedom of speech provision protect a state that wants to do so?

    Parent
    Bingo! (none / 0) (#45)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:55:16 PM EST
    and at the same time (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:55:20 PM EST
    doesn't the rest of the 1st's wording prohibit them from doing so?

    Parent
    I'm confused (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:56:49 PM EST
    to, Sarc.

    Parent
    In Utah they were clever (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by aw on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:07:33 PM EST
    The state seal includes a beehive, to represent industry.

    According to the Book of Mormon, "deseret" meant "honeybee" in the language of the Jaredites

    Parent

    Vishnu (none / 0) (#56)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:18:44 PM EST
    could represent..... enlightened leadership?

    Parent
    Wherever (none / 0) (#57)
    by aw on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:29:41 PM EST
    that place is, I want to go there.

    Parent
    Me too. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:30:57 PM EST
    But I think there's a line up. ;-)

    Parent
    state? (none / 0) (#48)
    by eric on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:03:34 PM EST
    I am not sure if I have ever heard the argument that the 1st Amendment protects the state, but even if it did, the problem here is that by adopting a religious symbol, they would be running afoul of the prohibition against the state endorsing any particular religion.

    Parent
    What if (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:05:39 PM EST
    they just happen to like the image of Vishnu?

    Parent
    eric (none / 0) (#52)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:10:43 PM EST
    they would be running afoul of the prohibition against the state endorsing any particular religion.

    From what we've been discussing the state can't make a law endorsing a religion. A seal/flag whatever, is not a law.

    Parent

    I think (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:15:28 PM EST
    this type of confusion is why we have courts, and case law, and precedent, that judges have to rely on, no?

    Not a simple as it first appears.

    Parent

    And I hope (none / 0) (#55)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:16:58 PM EST
    it doesn't go all the way to the SC while Scalia and Alito are alive.

    Parent
    law (none / 0) (#60)
    by eric on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:12:13 PM EST
    As I wrote, above, I think the confusion comes from an unduly narrow definition of the word, "law".  If a symbol is adopted, endorsed, resolved, annointed, whatever, it is the state acting with its lawmaking authority.

    While I understand that it may be said that a more commonly understood definition of "law" relates to those directives that prohibit certain conduct, (such as the criminal law), law also encompasses anything that is authorized and written down by the state.

    Parent

    OK, thanks eric. (none / 0) (#64)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:20:53 PM EST
    But states can and do sometimes enact "law" that violates the Constitution. It's an ongoing evolving thing, "law", no?

    Parent
    yep (none / 0) (#67)
    by eric on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:32:12 PM EST
    Oh yes, they do.  Sometimes, also, states act in ways that are unconstitutional.

    Parent
    eric (none / 0) (#66)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:30:19 PM EST
    I guess so. It just seems to me that it's a little odd to decide that a symbol on a flag is really a law adopted by the state meant to establish a religion.

    No big deal, I'm not really wedded to this, just exploring the "plain english" of it.

    Parent

    On the other hand (none / 0) (#31)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:23:45 PM EST
    There are places wherein like minded folk can     make religious symbols "part of their official   symbol": they're called churches and homes. Does  anyone really need any kind of govt (local or    otherwise) to expedite or enforce this?

    More mangers (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:45:41 PM EST
    This seperation of wedge issue and state has to   stop, I tell you!

    Silly me, I always thought that it is... (none / 0) (#41)
    by Bill Arnett on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 01:51:29 PM EST
    ...because more people have died in the name of god and that more people have been persecuted in the name of god than ANY OTHER REASON that the founding Fathers, in recognition of those facts, called for the complete separation of church and state in order to stop destroying and killing people here in America in the name of god.

    Keeping religion separate from state is obviously imperative when you have a president who talks with and gets his marching orders from god, but bush has circumvented the letter and the spirit of the constitution with all the "faith-based" groups to which he has funneled billions of taxpayer dollars while the courts decided that, unlike any other employer, religious groups are free to discriminate against non-religious people in hiring, promoting, or retaining employees.

    Like I said, silly of me to think this constitutional provision was written to protect the state from the clutches of organized religions who seek to make their religion the only religion, and that have, over the centuries, killed and persecuted more people than any other group of persons or countries.

    BA (none / 0) (#51)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 02:07:56 PM EST
    Silly me, I always thought that it is because more people have died in the name of god and that more people have been persecuted in the name of god than ANY OTHER REASON

    No question, many, too many, have died in the name of religion, but more than "ANY OTHER REASON?" Please. A quick list of those who have been murdered not in the name of religion.

    U.S.S.R.: 20 million deaths
    China: 65 million deaths
    Vietnam: 1 million deaths
    North Korea: 2 million deaths
    Cambodia: 2 million deaths
    Eastern Europe: 1 million deaths
    Latin America: 150,000 deaths
    Africa: 1.7 million deaths
    Afghanistan: 1.5 million deaths

    Can you guess what they were murdered in the name of?

    Parent

    Sarc (none / 0) (#72)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 05:29:49 PM EST
    That is like saying every human being who was ever killed who was not killed "in the name of religion" was killed "in the name of" something else. Not true, I think.

    You are right when you say that many millions have been murdered not in the name of religion, however it is a false impression you are creating, and is disingenuous, though I think, and at least hope, in your case not intentionally.

    People are killed for many many diferent reasons. Your figures add up to about 91 Million peole killed for a variety of reasons, in a variety of countries.

    Most of them were not killed "in the name of" anything. By that I mean they were not killed because they were not "believers" in something. Most of them died because they wer "in the way" of power mad people, but not because they did not "believe in" those power mad people.

    They were what powerful people in all countries and political systems refer to as "collateral damage". Most very powerful leaders are unable to retain and consolidate power without the support of the religious leaders in their countries. So in a sense many of those who died, did die because of, just not "in the name of" religion.

    They died, some as a result famine and food shortages due, admittedly, to corrupt but mainly incompetent political and economic systems that were unable to sustain the populations and at the same time support the military and industrial infrastuctures in those countries, and food shipments were withheld and diverted by the power mad leaders to areas where they were used to support those infrastructures. This was the case in both China and in the USSR, as well as Eastern Europe and other places.

    Evil yes. But the people were not overtly killed because they were not believers, as is the case of people killed "in the name of" religions.

    Dead id dead, most definitely, and I do not have the time or the resources to find actual figures, however I think an accounting would find that of people killed specifically and overtly "in the name" of something, that religion far and away takes the cake.

    Parent

    Fair warning (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 05:35:41 PM EST
    I wrote the above in hurry and posted without proofreading and phraseology checking. Nitpick editorial errors details rather than address the whole issue, and I'll call you on it. Whoever you are. :-)

    Parent
    hmmm (none / 0) (#74)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 05:41:56 PM EST
    Jumping the gun a bit eh...

    Parent
    How do you mean? ;-) (none / 0) (#75)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 06:31:43 PM EST
    Preemptive Defense (none / 0) (#78)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 08:59:19 PM EST
    I thought that you were being unduly nervous about your comment, that's all.

    Parent
    edger (none / 0) (#76)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 08:12:41 PM EST
    I only have time for a quick response.

    BA's "more people killed in the name of religion than anything else" comment is such a load of poppycock and has been so overwhelmingly disproved so many times on this site that when he posted it I figured he must have some new twist up his sleeve...apparently that's not the case, of course, after all, how could it be?

    His comment is as demonstrably false today as it was every other time it's been made here.

    However, you did hit the nail right on the head.

    All these deaths I mentioned above were in the name of power. Additionally, I would expand on that to say that all deaths in the name of religion were/are actually deaths in the name of power.

    But what I don't understand, considering that the most powerful entities in our world, and therefor the entities that not only have the potential to kill but irrefutably have killed - by far - the most innocents, are governments, why, in general, the left ignores that almost incomprehensibly voracious and lethal elephant in the room and in fact usually supports greater governmental power over the citizenry yet spends so much time and energy railing against religion which has proven over the millenia to be, in comparison, a much lesser source of innocent deaths.

    I'll step down now off my OT soapbox...

    Parent

    Quick response but good hard question (none / 0) (#79)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:00:48 PM EST
    I'm glad we agree that the deaths in question were "in the name" of power. That's a much better and shorter way of stating it that my long winded rambling was.

    I'll take it one small step further and suggest that we use "attributable to" instead of "in the name of", fair?

    That would make your statement: all deaths in the name of religion were/are actually deaths in the name of power become all deaths attributable to religion were/are actually deaths attributable to [pursuit or consolidation or excercise of] power. which I don't think alters your meaning? Fair still, I hope?

    I think that with some research we could attribute most of the deaths you mentioned above to pursuit or consolidation or excercise of power, and it appears you agree. Usually by nuts, I think also. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, The Pope, Bush(I would argue strongly). So I think we're still basically in agreement.

    Then you ask: why, in general, the left ignores that almost incomprehensibly voracious and lethal elephant in the room and in fact usually supports greater governmental power over the citizenry yet spends so much time and energy railing against religion which has proven over the millenia to be, in comparison, a much lesser source of innocent deaths.

    Two things here:

    1.) Maybe the left in general does support greater governmental power. I don't, and I think that most who comment here don't. I think that most of the arguments here from the left are arguments agaist it. e.g. wiretapping, 'war on terror' security overreaching, MCA, inherent executive power, military/industrial complex and other issues are all things people here argue against. I want much smaller government, and I think most of the "left" her at Talkleft also does. Maybe we're not so "left" after all? The left in general? I don't know, but I suspect that they want much smaller government than The Bush Administartion has provided the past six years.

    America is very nearly bankrupt and arguably is on the verge of economic meltdown. Perhaps not enough people know this yet, but I think that anyone who finds out about it almost immediately wants to see government spending reined in drastically. If it happens it will take down the world economy and make the depression of the 30's look like an unpleasant day or two of being broke before payday, you know? I had posted a quote in one of Peaches diaries from the head (I think) of the GAO warning that soon US debt will balloon to $46 Trillion or so if something is not done rapidly, but all of his diaries are now gone, so it will take me time to find the article again.

    2.) The 'railing against religion' as you term it is something that has been badly misunderstood repeatedly here, as I found in my 'discussion' with Peaches the other day for example. Over and over many here have tried in many ways to clarify that we are not against religion per se, but against the kind of influence of "organized religion" on governement policy and lawmaking that results in for example, the deaths we are talking about. IOW, the pursuit of power by religious organizations.

    aw put it very succintly here I thought when she said:

    No one is telling anyone how to think.  On my part, I just want them to get out of my face and not use our political system to impose their beliefs on the rest of us.

    Because, I believe she meant, that when that imposition gets out of control it destroys countries from within rapidly and causes enormous suffering, resources wars (Iraq?) and death. If I interpreted her thoughts right, I agree with them.

    This was a start, but by no means and end to an ongoing discussion because I think it encompasses almost all of the topics discussed on Talkleft since I've been here... on and on we go...

    Parent

    Correction (none / 0) (#80)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:06:55 PM EST
    Because, I believe she meant, that when that imposition gets out of control it destroys countries from within rapidly and causes enormous suffering, resources wars (Iraq?) and death, as well as unnaceptable personal imposition on her rights as human being, and on her personal, and bodily, integrity, and freedom of choice.

    Parent
    Right, Edger (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by aw on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:30:10 PM EST
    It seems to me that the large number of responses in these  religious topic threads shows how worked up all sides get about it (more so than secular political issues). We push each other verbally now, but if the government were to take sides and actually enact laws based on beliefs, it could deteriorate to  something much worse.  Taken to extremes, it could mean sectarian violence.   I don't understand the lack of imagination in those who think that that could never happen.

    Parent
    I would hate to see (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:40:25 PM EST
    the situation develop to the point that it did in Russia after the collaps of the USSR, but it seems to be drawing near and nearer to that every day, and the people in power seem to me to be exacerbating it all they can while skimming obscenely huge personal profit from the misery they are causing, perhaps in the delusion that if they are rich enough they'll be insulated from it?

    This all comes back to the need for separation of church and state even though in some of the tributaries of the discussion it doesn't sound that way.

    Parent

    "in the name" of power. (none / 0) (#81)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:26:28 PM EST
    From digby
    It reminded me of this article by Phil Agre from a few years back that I've been meaning to discuss as we watch the edifice of modern conservatism start to crumble.
    From the pharaohs of ancient Egypt to the self-regarding thugs of ancient Rome to the glorified warlords of medieval and absolutist Europe, in nearly every urbanized society throughout human history, there have been people who have tried to constitute themselves as an aristocracy. These people and their allies are the conservatives....

    .....the true goal of conservatism is to establish an aristocracy, which is a social and psychological condition of inequality. Economic inequality and regressive taxation, while certainly welcomed by the aristocracy, are best understood as a means to their actual goal, which is simply to be aristocrats....

    .....More generally, it is crucial to conservatism that the people must literally love the order that dominates them....

    ....People who believe that the aristocracy rightfully dominates society because of its intrinsic superiority are conservatives; democrats, by contrast, believe that they are of equal social worth. Conservatism is the antithesis of democracy. This has been true for thousands of years......


     

    Parent
    That's why (none / 0) (#84)
    by aw on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:38:37 PM EST
    PPJ tugs his forelock to Mary Cheney.  She's a member of the ruling families.

    I'll bet he dreams of begging a token, perhaps a piece torn from her sleeve, to wear while he does battle for her.

    Parent

    Born poor (1.00 / 1) (#100)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 10:30:07 AM EST
    aw - My father was a sharecropper, the lowest ring in farming. I suspect I personally know more about being poor and how the "elites" act than you ever will.

    But the facts are this. If you don't give everyone the same protection, then no one will have any protection, and revolution is a dangerous bride and a hateful lover.

    Parent

    PPJ aka Cinderella (none / 0) (#101)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 10:41:36 AM EST
    I'll bet he dreams of begging a token, perhaps a piece torn from her sleeve, to wear while he does battle for her.

    Never thought of Cinderella as a wingnut, but she sure loved the aristos. Hey, they pulled her out of her pile of sh*t. Can you blame her?

    Parent

    Sure, Jim... :-/ (none / 0) (#102)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 10:42:53 AM EST
    If you don't give everyone the same protection, then no one will have any protection.

    Sure... :-/

    Parent

    Really good article, Squeaky (none / 0) (#90)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 10:02:00 PM EST
    Throw this into the mix and you get a good idea of one reason they might be trying to amass as much wealth as possible: And People Call Me a Pessimist --Billmon.

    Parent
    Nice billmon link (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by squeaky on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 10:19:55 PM EST
    That is what the space program is for, silly.

    Parent
    The UCLA server that (none / 0) (#95)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 07:20:41 AM EST
    the full Phil Agre article digby links to is on is down this morning, but I did some looking around and found larger parts of it than digby had posted. One paragrapgh that is really striking is this one:
    Life under aristocratic domination is horrible. The United States is blessed to have little notion of what this horror is like. Europe, for example, staggered under the weight of its aristocracies for thousands of years. European aristocracies are in decline, and Europe certainly has its democratic heroes and its own dawning varieties of civilized life, and yet the psychology and institutions that the aristocracies left behind continue to make European societies rigid and blunt Europeans' minds with layers of internalized oppression. People come to America to get away from all of that. Conservatism is as alien here as it could possibly be. Only through the most comprehensive campaign of deception in human history has it managed to establish its very tentative control of the country's major political institutions. Conservatism until very recently was quite open about the fact that it is incompatible with the modern world. That is right. The modern world is a good place, and it will win.

    I wonder. Maybe retaining separation of church and state might be a good idea? Anyone? ;-)

    Parent

    This also from Digby (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by aw on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 09:36:01 AM EST
    The NRA said that Americans had a right to bear arms. Period. They didn't bargain or negotiate. And they were successful because when your raison d'etre is protecting a fundamental right, you have to be absolutist or you lose the moral authority of your argument.



    Parent
    It's (none / 0) (#96)
    by aw on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 09:24:09 AM EST
    the keystone of our democracy.

    Parent
    Here's the article about economic meltdown (none / 0) (#83)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:33:10 PM EST
    10. 30. 06
    GAO Chief Warns Economic Disaster Looms
    Associated Press
    David M. Walker sure talks like he's running for office. "This is about the future of our country, our kids and grandkids," the comptroller general of the United States warns a packed hall at Austin's historic Driskill Hotel. "We the people have to rise up to make sure things get changed."
    ...
    Their basic message is this: If the United States government conducts business as usual over the next few decades, a national debt that is already $8.5 trillion could reach $46 trillion or more, adjusted for inflation. That's almost as much as the total net worth of every person in America - Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and those Google guys included.

    A hole that big could paralyze the U.S. economy; according to some projections, just the interest payments on a debt that big would be as much as all the taxes the government collects today.

    And every year that nothing is done about it, Walker says, the problem grows by $2 trillion to $3 trillion.
    ...
    "Realistically what we hope to accomplish through the fiscal wake-up tour is ensure that any serious candidate for the presidency in 2008 will be forced to deal with the issue," he says. "The best we're going to get in the next couple of years is to slow the bleeding."



    Parent
    I read that (none / 0) (#87)
    by aw on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:48:42 PM EST
    He's been going around telling this story for a while now.  It's so scary and no one is telling the people, sounding the alarm. The AP article just slipped right into oblivion, like the others.  This is what happens when you have major media consolidation.  Don't tell the peasants, they might revolt.

    We're going to be owned by the Chinese.  The Bush family will be safely ensconced in Paraguay by then.

    Parent

    This is a good example (none / 0) (#88)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:53:20 PM EST
    of why blogs like Talkleft and the rest of the netroots, and the internet, are important.

    They are not for just "having a social life" for social incompetents. They are for having town and village meetings to discuss and map out the future of society, if there is to be one.

    Parent

    Big and Small (none / 0) (#99)
    by kdog on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 09:52:38 AM EST
    The stereotypical lefty wants small govt. when it comes to the military, law enforcement apparatus, that type of stuff.  They want big govt. for social programs and corporate regulation.

    The stereotypical righty wants the opposite.  Small govt. when it comes to social programs and regulation...big govt. military expenditures and law enforcement.

    I think the days of the righty being the small govt. guy are behind us.  We all want our cake and to eat it too so to speak.

    Parent

    Edger (none / 0) (#109)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 02:29:59 PM EST
    I'm fine with your terminology and I understand that you're not the prototypical lefty.

    The point is power kills. In general, governments have infinitely more power, today, than religions, so why the constant harping on religion?

    Back in the day, (most, if not all) gvts were religions and those gvts killed as they saw fit to the extent of their ability. Today many (most?) gvts are not religions yet  gvts still kill as they see fit to the extent of their capacity.

    Why divvy up gvt (in reference to kdog's post below) into "good" parts of gvt from "bad" and by extension think that you should support the "good" but stand strong against the "bad?"

    Each part cannot exist without the other, if you support one then, by definition, you are supporting the other.

    The world has and always will have gvts. Secular or not, those in gvt with the power all too often decide that their goals are righteous and can only be achieved through killing. In this context, religion is a red herring.

    Parent

    See (none / 0) (#112)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 02:40:09 PM EST
    here, Sarc.

    Parent
    Sarc (none / 0) (#86)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:45:07 PM EST
    Quite a bit of this relates closely to what Peaches was trying to get across with his "End Of Empire" series of diaries.

    I'm out of here for now - morning comes to early. Good night all.

    Parent

    established religion (none / 0) (#61)
    by diogenes on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:14:00 PM EST
    If this is such a no-brainer about what the constitution says, then why was prayer in schools OK until the 1950's?

    Athiests obsess more about God and religion than anyone else.

    Yes, well (none / 0) (#62)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:16:43 PM EST
    we hope it's not contagious, I suppose. So we study to know what makes it spread.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edger on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:50:10 PM EST
    What makes it spread is now reasonably well known and documented.

    It's finding a cure that we're after now.

    Parent

    Because (none / 0) (#63)
    by aw on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:17:48 PM EST
    it creeps up on us.  You know, give 'em a hand and they take an arm.

    Parent
    I think... (none / 0) (#68)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:45:15 PM EST
    us non-believers obsess about where the true-believers wanna take our country, not about the boogey-man in the sky.

    Parent
    Besides.... (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:47:31 PM EST
    it wasn't till the 50's that god got added to the pledge, so we can call that a wash.

    Parent
    The right wingers (none / 0) (#77)
    by aw on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 08:45:13 PM EST
    took advantage of godless-communist hysteria that time.

    Parent
    Because it was not challenged until then (none / 0) (#65)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 03:26:16 PM EST
    Yes, but (none / 0) (#71)
    by eric on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 04:02:36 PM EST
    Separate But Equal was the law until the 1950's, as well.

    Segregation wasn't right and neither is government sanctioned religion.

    Parent

    look folks, a joke! (none / 0) (#89)
    by Sailor on Thu Dec 07, 2006 at 09:57:54 PM EST
    If this is such a no-brainer about what the constitution says, then why was prayer in schools OK until the 1950's?
    "there will be prayer in schools as long as there are math tests."

    And please provide actual links to your delusions. The 1950's? Really!? Next time show work.

    Parent

    Good point (none / 0) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 04:39:14 PM EST

    Men despise religion; they hate it, and they fear it is true. - Pascal



    Parent
    Pascal's Wager (none / 0) (#118)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 04:50:58 PM EST

     Because of the multitude of possible religions, if any faith is as likely as the other, the probability of the christian being right is P=1/n where n is the number of possible faiths. If we assume that there is an infinite amount of possible gods (i.e. ideas of gods), the probability of you being right is infinitely small.

     Because Pascal's wager fails to tell us which god is likely to be the right one, you have a great probability that you picked the wrong religion and go to some other religion's version of hell. This is referred to as the "avoiding the wrong hell problem"

    A good argument for seperation of Church and State.

    link

    Parent

    I'll wager... (none / 0) (#120)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 04:56:35 PM EST
    ...there's a point in there that someone will miss.

    ;>)

    Parent

    School prayer and public displays (none / 0) (#103)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 12:40:01 PM EST
    Btw, what did the Savior say about praying and   doing alms in public again? Anybody know?

    That's (none / 0) (#105)
    by aw on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 01:11:55 PM EST
    the awful irony.  They take the lord's name in vain, using it to advance their agendas.  They're not just holier than thou, they're holier than Jesus himself.

    Parent
    And (none / 0) (#106)
    by aw on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 01:37:01 PM EST
    they love the Baby Jesus and Dying Jesus.  Follow Talking Jesus, the minister?  That's too hard.

    Parent
    It's Alright, Ma (none / 0) (#107)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 01:42:35 PM EST
    Disillusioned words like bullets bark
    As human gods aim for their mark
    Made everything from toy guns that spark
    To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
    It's easy to see without looking too far
    That not much
    Is really sacred.

    ---It's Alright, Ma (I'm Only Bleeding)



    Parent
    Been disproved by who? (none / 0) (#104)
    by jondee on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 01:01:42 PM EST
    Sarc, in the name of right wing libertarianism?

    That sheer number argument is a red herring     crock that you should be acute to recognize. If the destructive means had been available during   the time of the wars of the Reformation, the     Crusades, the Inquistion, the witch hunts, various endless "wars" against "the savages"(non-Christians), the Islamic/Christian conflicts    during the Dark Ages, etc etc. The numbers would  more than square. But I'll concede your point    that socialism, commonism, and free marketism   can all be adhered to as irrationally as any mystical cult.

    jondee (none / 0) (#111)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 02:37:44 PM EST
    I couldn't agree more, the "sheer number" argument is a red herring. However, Bill made the argument, not me. Complain to him about it, not me.

    But I'll concede your point    that socialism, commonism, and free marketism   can all be adhered to as irrationally as any mystical cult.

    Any path to power will do, if you want power badly enough.

    Parent

    What has been motivating you? (none / 0) (#108)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 02:06:26 PM EST
    The facts on the ground. I'm a journalist, reporting the evidence, not an environmentalist pressing an agenda. The Earth is sending us a message and you don't have to be an environmentalist to read it. The Arctic ice is melting. The Arctic winds are balmy. The Arctic Ocean is rising. Scientists say that in the year 2002 -- the second-hottest on record -- they saw the Arctic ice coverage shrink more than at any time since they started measuring it. Every credible scientific study in the world says human activity is creating global warming. In the face of this evidence, the government in Washington has declared war on nature. They have placed religious and political dogma over the facts.

    --Bill Moyers




    Moyers (none / 0) (#119)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 04:52:52 PM EST
    is also not a scientist and is biased beyond reality.

    I mean, "war on nature?" How dumb can you possibly be?

    Parent

    Still having difficulty... (none / 0) (#121)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 04:59:58 PM EST
    ...with those pesky little "point" things are ya?

    It's ok - no one expected you to get it.

    Parent

    Why you want separation of church and state... (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 02:35:50 PM EST
    ...especially if you are Christian.

    Margaret Atwood:

    "The Bolsheviks got rid of their nearest ideological neighbors, the Mencheviks, as soon as they had the power. They killed the lot. You know? Too close to them. They got rid of any other socialists. They wanted to be the only true church brand of socialists. So any theocracy in [the United States] would immediately eliminate all other competing religions if they could ... [that] is exactly how they would operate, because that's what happens under those kinds of arrangements. You want to be the power, the only power, and anybody who could be a rival power, you'd get rid of them."


    Theocons... (none / 0) (#113)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 03:57:49 PM EST
    ...and Theocrats
    Kevin Phillips, The Nation, April 13, 2006
    The essential US conditions for a theocratic trend fell into place in the late 1980s and '90s with the growing mass of evangelical, fundamentalist and Pentecostal Christianity, expressed politically by the religious right; and the rise of the Republican Party as a powerful vehicle for religious policy-making and eventual erosion of the accepted degree of separation between church and state.
    ...
    As early as 1988, Ohio academician John Green, a specialist in religious political behavior, had commented on how the growing correlation between frequent church attendance and Republican presidential voting was starting to raise a US parallel to the religious parties of Europe, most notably the Christian Democrats in Germany and Italy.
    ...
    For example, in 1999 a national poll by Newsweek revealed that 40 percent of American Christians believed in Armageddon and virtually as many thought the Antichrist was already alive. Because such believers were most numerous in the Republican electorate, I would calculate that roughly 55 percent of Bush 2004 voters believed in Armageddon--and it could be higher.
    ...
    Such voters are especially prone to theocratic views, and foreign policy is by no means immune. In 2004 a survey by the Pew Center found that 55 percent of white evangelical Protestants consider "following religious principles" to be a top priority for foreign policy. Only a quarter of Catholics and mainline Protestants agreed, but given the makeup of the Bush coalition, I would guess that about half its voters would favor that position. This explains both why so many of Bush's core supporters cheered the first-stage US involvement in Iraq--and why Bush bungled things in the Holy Land so badly.
    ...
    Then there is the subject matter of business, economics and wealth, in which the tendency of the Christian right is to oppose regulation and justify wealth and relative laissez-faire, tipping its hat to the upper-income and corporate portions of the Republican coalition. Christian Reconstructionists go even further, abandoning most economic regulation in order to prepare the moral framework for God's return.

    The last arena of theological influence, almost as important as sex, birth and mortality, involves American foreign policy, bringing us to the connections among the "war on terror," the rapture, the end times, Armageddon and the thinly disguised US crusade against radical Islam.
    ...
    The nonradical theocon wing of the GOP demands a more conservative judiciary and an expanded role for religion in education, social services and the constraining of what they consider to be immoral behavior--abortion, homosexuality, pornography and contraception--but avoids spelling out any grand revolutionary mandate. The Christian Reconstructionist movement, by contrast, proclaims ambitions that range from replacing public schools with religious education to imposing biblical law and limiting the franchise to male Christians.



    Ah yes (1.00 / 0) (#122)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 05:16:48 PM EST
    show the average journalist a cross and he will immediately run for cover screaming as if he was being pursued by all the demons of hell.

    Kevin Phillips demonstrates a remarkable ability to be terrified over nothing.

    In the meantime I would guess he has no understanding that radical Moslems mean what they say and will pull the trigger on a nuclear weapon as soon as they can.

    Parent

    Speaking of terrified (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by aw on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 05:44:07 PM EST
    You take the cake.  You are the very epitome of the terrified, terrorized populace.  You like killing naked, unarmed people because they're so scary.


    Parent
    When did you and Bush and Cheney... (none / 0) (#129)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 06:48:55 PM EST
    ...become "radical Moslems" anyway, Jim?

    Parent
    And in other OT and useless news... (none / 0) (#114)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 04:05:59 PM EST
    Zogby polling shows an overwhelming majority (95%) say they are not offended by being greeted with a "Merry Christmas" while shopping, including 98% for weekly Wal-Mart shoppers. But greet them with a "Happy Holidays," and 46% say they take offense. The Zogby Interactive poll surveyed 12,806 adults between Nov. 21-29 and has a margin of error of +/- 0.9 percentage points.

    Of course, not everyone will be excited to hear more "Merry Christmas" greetings this season. One in three respondents who identified themselves as Jewish (32%) said they were upset by hearing "Merry Christmas" as were 10% of those of non-Christian faiths or who did not identify themselves with a religion. Democrats are more likely to take offense at "Merry Christmas" (8%) compared with fewer than 1% of Republicans and 1% of Independents.

    While "Happy Holidays" is a greeting intended to appeal to everyone, retailers' efforts to avoid offending anyone may have backfired. More than half of those polled (51%) said they are bothered by store clerks who greet customers with "Happy Holidays" in an effort to help stores be politically correct. For some shoppers, a clerk who says "Happy Holidays" might as well be saying "Don't shop here" - 36% say they have avoided shopping at a store or have cut their visit short after being greeted with a "Happy Holidays" instead of a "Merry Christmas." That figure jumps to 41% for weekly Wal-Mart shoppers and 42% for those older than 65.


    Sarc (1.00 / 1) (#123)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 05:21:05 PM EST
    a poll with an accuracy of +/- .9%??

    And why anyone would be offended to be greated by any variation of a religious type greeting is beyond me.

    I place them into that great group of true idoits that just want to be offended.

    Parent

    Mmmm. (none / 0) (#124)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 05:32:51 PM EST
    idoits.

    Parent
    Beyond you? (none / 0) (#126)
    by squeaky on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 05:45:08 PM EST
    Well praise allah!

    As sala'amu alaikum

    Parent

    Happy Ramadan, PPJ (none / 0) (#127)
    by aw on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 05:46:09 PM EST
    If you like theocracy so much (none / 0) (#128)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 05:53:29 PM EST
    move to Iran, PPJ.

    Parent
    Oh hell then (none / 0) (#115)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 04:09:31 PM EST
    Pat Robertson for president!!!! ;-)

    Parent
    Then we can (none / 0) (#116)
    by Edger on Fri Dec 08, 2006 at 04:33:10 PM EST
    crucify him. Ummm, well...on second thought, he'd probably like that.

    Parent
    Theocracy (none / 0) (#130)
    by squeaky on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 10:29:37 AM EST
    Model Prison?
    The cells in Unit E had real wooden doors and doorknobs, with locks. More books and computers were available, and inmates were kept busy with classes, chores, music practice and discussions. There were occasional movies and events with live bands and real-world food, like pizza or sandwiches from Subway. Best of all, there were opportunities to see loved ones in an environment quieter and more intimate than the typical visiting rooms.

    NOT

    But the only way an inmate could qualify for this kinder mutation of prison life was to enter an intensely religious rehabilitation program and satisfy the evangelical Christians running it that he was making acceptable spiritual progress. The program -- which grew from a project started in 1997 at a Texas prison with the support of George W. Bush, who was governor at the time -- says on its Web site that it seeks "to `cure' prisoners by identifying sin as the root of their problems" and showing inmates "how God can heal them permanently, if they turn from their sinful past."

    Worth a read

    They've had (none / 0) (#131)
    by Edger on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 10:43:27 AM EST
    some history on re-education to learn from. :-(

    Parent
    Offend the offenders (none / 0) (#132)
    by jondee on Sun Dec 10, 2006 at 11:50:29 AM EST
    Stipulate that all other religions be granted equal time and the R.R, O'Moron, and Coultergeist will    shut up yesterday.