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Wednesday Open Thread

With the Scooter Libby trial beginning yesterday, I forgot to put up the Tuesday open thread. So here's a Wednesday open thread.

If you've got something to report or talk about besides Libby and SOTU, here's the spot.

I know that PPJ is just dying to talk about whether Joseph Wilson was right or wrong in his criticism of Cheney and the Administration, which really has no bearing on the Libby trial, so that topic is fair game here.

I've got the dentist in the morning followed by court in the afternoon, so check in with Firedoglake and Media Bloggers if you're looking for up to the minute Libby trial coverage.

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    The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids in America (none / 0) (#1)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 06:14:38 AM EST
    a report from the CATO institute here

    40,000 swat deployments a year, 70-80% for warrant service

    Warrant service? (none / 0) (#2)
    by hellskitchen on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 08:18:36 AM EST
    A SWAT team to serve a subpoena - must be some dude of a witness!

    Parent
    hellskitchen (1.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:27:16 AM EST
    Most likely it is for arrest. You know. Taken into custody..

    Parent
    Once again PPJ (none / 0) (#29)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:22:31 AM EST
    substitutes his opinion for evidence

    from the article

    In small- to medium-sized cities, Kraska
    estimates that 80 percent of SWAT callouts
    are now for warrant service. In large cities, it's
    about 75 percent. These numbers, too, have
    been on the rise since the early 1980s.73
    Orange County, Florida, deployed its SWAT
    team 619 times during one five-year period in
    the 1990s. Ninety-four percent of those callouts
    were to serve search warrants, not for
    hostage situations or police standoffs.74

    Parent

    Is that our Big Tent Democrat (none / 0) (#3)
    by unbill on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 08:36:56 AM EST
    ranting over there at DailyKos? This has been going on for days, now the BTD over at Kos has "taken of his gloves". Or is someone pretending to be him to make him look bad? Just wondering, before I draw any conclusions.

    Diary about the bad treatment of X? n/t (none / 0) (#4)
    by hellskitchen on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 08:39:25 AM EST
    Yes, we get (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:22:33 AM EST
    the same disingenuous calls for civility or "decorum" as it's sometimes phrased, here as well. For the the BS reasons.

    Parent
    Let's not conflate (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by roy on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:07:01 AM EST
    I've seen the same trick.  Certain commenters use dishonest, deceitful, or just plain bad arguments, then play the victim when they're called on it.

    But there are also sincere calls for civility.  I try to make these myself, and try to take it seriously when others ask me to be polite.  Vigorous argument can be great mental exercise, and occasionally it can teach somebody something.  Nastiness obscures those benefits.

    Basically, just because bad actors call for civility doesn't mean that civility is bad.  This is what Prof. Volokh catchily calls the "Reverse  Mussolini" fallacy.

    Parent

    True, and true. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:18:01 AM EST
    I have never seen a disingenous comment from you, Roy.

    Parent
    unbill (none / 0) (#18)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:27:57 AM EST
    Yes, I do believe it is he.

    Parent
    BTD ranting? Say it's not so... (none / 0) (#40)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:46:11 PM EST
    Search his TL posts from 2006 before he was told to cool his jets here. They're truly eye-opening. He's a pistol!

    Parent
    amended complaint in Nifong ethics case (none / 0) (#6)
    by scribe on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:28:08 AM EST
    the NYT reported (about a half hour ago) that the NC State Bar has added charges to the ethics complaint against former Duke Lacross case prosecutor Nifong. These new charges relate to his withholding from the defense of exculpatory DNA evidence and his repeated representations to the Court and defense that all discovery "evidence" had been turned over, when in fact it had not.

    A "systematic abuse of prosecutorial discretion", they call it.

    Good on them for calling him on it.

    Rich white defendants (none / 0) (#8)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:38:00 AM EST
    At some level it seems quite likely that the bar would have never been involved and Nifong would be on his way to convictions except for the high priced talent.  OTOH, if they were not rich white kids, they would never have been charged in the first place.

    Parent
    Wilson and why (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:37:40 AM EST
    Talking about the Libby trial without talking about Joe Wilson and his wife leaves out the fact that one follows the other. And that the trial would not exist had not Wilson's NYT editorial made claims. Was his editorial accurate? Was it unbiased? Did he have an agenda?

    We have three key documents to look at in regards to this. First we need to establish up front what the President said in his 2003 SOTU.

    The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa

    Link

    Note that he did not say "purchase" or any variation of that word. This is an important point and I ask you to remember it. Because any claim that the President said "purchased" or any variation thereof is wrong.

    The next document is Wilson's infamous NYT article of 7/6/03.

    Wilson's lead comment was:

    Did the Bush administration manipulate intelligence about Saddam Hussein's weapons programs to justify an invasion of Iraq?
    ... I have little choice but to conclude that some of the intelligence related to Iraq's nuclear weapons program was twisted to exaggerate the Iraqi threat.

    ...Cheney's office had questions about a particular intelligence report. While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake -- a form of lightly processed ore -- by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's

    Now this was in February of 2002. The question supposedly is over the sale of yellowcake.  I ask. Was that the question? Or was the question over Saddam seeking to purchase yellowcake?  I went to Google and immediately found this:

    As the prosecutor said at today's press conference.... Some interesting tidbits that will need to be clarified:..On page 4 we read:
    On or about May 29, 2003, in the White House, LIBBY asked an Under Secretary of State ("Under Secretary") for information concerning the unnamed ambassador's travel to Niger to investigate claims about Iraqi efforts to acquire uranium yellowcake.

    Now where does the above come from? Larry Johnson and the TPM Café.

    So. Who is right here? The SP or Joe Wilson? It's an important question. Because if Wilson task was to investigate an attempt to purchase, why does he speak of "sale" time and again in his article, and  only mentions "efforts to buy" one time?

    I again went to Google and found this from David Corn in Huffington Post.

    Wilson's now-controversial trip to Niger, where he was sent to by the CIA to check out allegations that Iraq was shopping for weapons-grade uranium there. (He concluded there was nothing to this charge.)

    Here we have two sources, easily obtained..took me less than 30 seconds.. they both say the same thing. Wilson was sent to see if Saddam had attempted to purchase. And no one can say that either Corn or Johnson is biased in favor of the administration.

    And note the  last sentence of Corn's remark. "He (Wilson) concluded there was nothing to this charge."

    No David Corn that is wrong. If we believe the CIA, he actually did. But Wilson chose to place great emphasis on what was not asked. Was there a "sale?"

    I was not surprised, then, when the ambassador told me that she knew about the allegations of uranium sales to Iraq -- and that she felt she had already debunked them in her reports to Washington....It did not take long to conclude that it was highly doubtful that any such transaction had ever taken place.....(later) In short, there's simply too much oversight over too small an industry for a sale to have transpired.

    So we have the question supposedly asked, answered. But then Wilson continutes:

    In September 2002, however, Niger re-emerged. The British government published a "white paper".... the report cited Iraq's attempts to purchase uranium from an African country.
    ...in January, President Bush, citing the British dossier, repeated the charges about Iraqi efforts to buy uranium from Africa.

    The next day, I reminded a friend at the State Department of my trip and suggested that if the president had been referring to Niger, then his conclusion was not borne out by the facts as I understood them.

    Now what facts was he referring to? Wilson himself uses the words "efforts to buy" in this one and only place in the article, and he then follows up with "conclusion was not borne out by the facts that I understood them."

    Huh? What had he told the CIA during his debriefing?

    The intelligence report based on the former ambassador's trip was disseminated on March 8, 2002....The intelligence report indicated that former Nigerien Prime Minister Ibrahim.....
    Mayaki said, however, that in June 1999,(                    ) businessman, approached him and insisted that Mayaki meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq. The intelligence report said that Mayaki interpreted "expanding commercial relations" to mean that the delegation wanted to discuss uranium yellowcake sales. The intelligence report also said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to the UN sanctions on Iraq."

    The CIA's DO gave the former ambassador's information a grade of "good,"....... He said he judged that the most important fact in the report was that the Nigerien officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Nigerien Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium, because this provided some confirmation of foreign government service reporting."

    Now. Go back and read Wilson's NYT article. He doesn't mention what he told the CIA. Why? Because it brings the whole thing into a "who do you believe." The Nigerian ex-PM or Wilson's judgement?

    And why didn't Wilson do that? I repeat my questions. Was the editorial accurate? Was it unbiased? Did he have an agenda? You can have your opinion. I have mine.

    And I would suspect that one person who would really like to know is Lewis Libby. If the NYT article had all the information the resulting cat fights and attacks would not have happened and he probably would be happily employed rather than fighting to stay out of jail.

    but... (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:44:23 AM EST
     ... that an alleged  would never have occurred but for something else occurring beforehand, does NOT necessarily make that something else  relevant to trying the alleged offense.

       If you were to lie about me in a newspaper column and I then lied to investigators  and a GJ whose investigation was initiated because of your lie, it is not a defense for me  that the investigatiuon should not have existed because you are a liar.

       At my trial, he prosecution should not be allowed to present evidence aas to whether what you said in the column was true or false and neither should I. THAT IS IRRELEVANT.

       What might be relevant is only that you said it insofar as what you said can be connected to my alleged motive. Even that relevancy is limited because it does not extend to whether I had a "good" or "justifiable" motive for lying to the GJ only that the existence of a motive for me to lie makes it less likely that my false statement was an accident or a mistake, etc.

     

    Parent

    Deconstructionist (none / 0) (#25)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:08:53 AM EST
    My point has nothing to do with the trial, or any defense of Libby's, but the circumstances surrounding the claims of Wilson, the MSM and the Leftwing Bloggerhood.

    However, I think it plain to see that one followed the other.

    Parent

    OK fair enough, but... (4.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:22:03 AM EST
     is there more to your argument than "it's OK to break the law if you are covering up efforts (legal or illegal) to "out" a liar?"

      I personally have no use for Wilson and think he's pretty slimy. That doesn't change my view about whether administation officials should lie under oath --even if the investigation during which the lie occurred initially was pursuing something that probably was not a provable crime.

      Wilson may well be a bigger and scummier liar than anyone else involved. I'm willing to concede that possibility. Lying in a newspaper column or in speeches is not a crime.

    Parent

    Decon (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 04:59:28 PM EST
    Watch my lips and try your best to understand.

    If you really think Wilson is slimy, then you should  have enjoyed my pointing out his activities regarding the editorial and how he told the world one thing, via the NYT, and the CIA something else.

    Since you didn't appear to, instead going into all kinds of "ifs and buts" re Libby and Libby's possible/impossible defense I confess that I don't believe you.

    I did not say, or imply that it was okay to break the law. If Libby did, then shame on him.

    My point on that is, as Amir pointed out, Fitzgerld knew very early on that Armitage was the leaker. He also knew that Mrs. Wilson wasn't covered under the law, thus leaking her name was not a crime, evidenced by the fact that Armitage hasn't been charged, or indicted.

    So far we have one reporter held in jail for a long period of time, and Libby charged with OOJ and  I guess, perjury. All part of a train launched by Wilson's article. While I think we are all responsible for our actions, if you think Wilson has no responsibiliy in this then I am sure you will defend bartenders who serve one too many to people who then go out and get in accidents.

    This spells to high heaven as a politically driven witch hunt, just as the one against Clinton was. It is past time that both parties stop playing games and concentrate on running the country.

    And yes. I understand that Fitzgerald is supposed to be Repub. Makes no difference in my belief. I think what everyone has learned from this is to not talk to DOJ, reporters and TV hosts without three personal lawyers present, and a legal steno to give you a complete and accurate transcript of all conversations.

    If you don't understand that this whole affair has damaged transparency in government I advise you to consider what has happened.

    Parent

    more lies (none / 0) (#82)
    by Sailor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:17:25 PM EST
    He also knew that Mrs. Wilson wasn't covered under the law
    Wrong, proved wrong over and over, and still this commenter can't just help himself.

    Watch my lips and try your best to understand.
    Insults, shouts and lies are all this commenter has ever contributed.

    Bush admitted he lied in the STFU address, Wilson told the truth about what he didn't find in Niger, and yet some folks insist that others can read their lips thru these internets tubes.

    Parent

    Sailor (none / 0) (#86)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:22:42 PM EST
    If she was covered, why has the SP not acted?

    BTW - Do you think I hurt his feelings?? Gosh.

    Sorry, Deconstructionist.

    BTW - The internet is carried mostly over fiber optic cable, not "tubes."

    Your thinking of old timey ships were the Captain blew on the tube and said, "Full power! They're gaining on us!"

    Parent

    why don't you, instead of chewing on (none / 0) (#12)
    by scribe on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:56:59 AM EST
    newspaper accounts, go read the INR report recapitulating the whole episode.  It's part of the trial evidence, and it's posted here.

    Great thing, having bloggers cover the trial.  With and thanks to a little forethought on their part, we get to see the evidence, too.

    Parent

    scribe (none / 0) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:04:33 AM EST
    Thanks for the report. I have bookmarked it so it will undoubtedly come back sometimes. BTW - My comment has nothing to do with the trial beyond noting the connection of the events. My entire point is that the entire caterwauling was based on a false premise. i.e. Bush lied in the SOTU. And this was triggered by Wilson's editorial claim of no "sale" and his one sentence note re "effort" and his undocumented claim of disagreememt.

    That the MSM plus much of blogdom bought into this speaks poorly of their research and directly to their bias.

    The INR report seems to be focused on the "sale" of yellowcake, and their position that it had not happened.

    My comments have no disagreement re the sale, nor did the Presidents remarks claim that a sale had been made.

    I find it interesting that the report agrees that Iraq was attempting to purchase yellow cake. See bottom of DX7.8 and top of DX7.9. That, of course has been the issue all along. Wilson in his editorial didn't mention that, just played up the "no sale" point and his supposedly learned disagreement with the President and his claims that the intelligence had been misrepresented.

    We now know that Wilson admitted to the CIA that the Nigerians said it happened. His ommission of that in the editorial leads me, and should lead any unbiased person, to wonder why.

    Parent

    of course he completely ignores ... (none / 0) (#38)
    by Sailor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:22:35 PM EST
    ... the fact that the cia had yanked that little tibit about yellow cake from a previous speech. Even colon powell refused to utter that crap.

    Even the wh refutes ppj's constant cherrypicking

    In his speech, Bush -- citing British intelligence information -- said Iraq was trying to buy uranium, which could be used to make nuclear weapons, in Africa. The White House concedes that information wasn't true.

    Case closed.

    Parent
    sailor (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:17:35 PM EST
    The problem with that sailor is that the CIA believed what the Nigerian ex-pm had said. Try reading the links, including the one provided by Scribe.

    One more time folks. Why did Wilson tell us one thing in the NYT editorial and something else to the CIA??

    So it doesn't matter what the CIA had recommended be pulled. Once Wilson had started the conversation, why didn't he complete the story??

    Parent

    Jim Webb's response to SOTU (none / 0) (#9)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:40:19 AM EST
    is here. We need to elect more guys like this!!

    And like this (none / 0) (#10)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:45:47 AM EST
    And like this as well?

    "Affirmative action, which originally sought to repair the state-induced damage to blacks from slavery and its aftermath, has within one generation brought about a permeating state-sponsored racism that is as odious as the Jim Crow laws it sought to countermand."

    James Webb


    Parent

    don't like that (none / 0) (#11)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:53:25 AM EST
    you have a link so i can get some context?

    Parent
    Here is a bit more context, Soc (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:05:08 AM EST
    Affirmative action, which originally sought to repair the state-induced damage to blacks from slavery and its aftermath, has within one generation brought about a permeating state-sponsored racism that is as odious as the Jim Crow laws it sought to countermand. A Soviet-style bureaucracy of political commissars now monitors every level of our society to ensure that racial and gender "diversity" matches pre-ordained models, using the awesome powers of government to make certain that white males are not "overrepresented" in education, employment or government contracts.

     And yet, despite billions of dollars spent on such policies and the "people watchers" charged with implementing them, the results have been both ludicrous and sad, with every nonwhite ethnic group enjoying favoritism while a significant part of black America remains mired in the underclass.

    The full WSJ article by Webb is here, on his site.

    Parent
    The whole (none / 0) (#20)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:45:41 AM EST
    article conveys a more complex argument that makes some good points. I think he sees the issue not just a racial one but a class issue. Need to spend more time on it.

    Thanks for the link


    Parent

    SD (1.00 / 1) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:11:57 AM EST
    You what??

    Heck. That's straight out of Limbaugh.

    Your defense of anything the Demos do is okay with you is plain to see.

    Parent

    That's what I thought too, Soc (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:22:13 AM EST
    Webb doesn't view the world in terms of slogans and one sentence soundbites. He understands there are complexities.

    Parent
    Yeah Jim (none / 0) (#13)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:57:39 AM EST
    So why is Libby screaming that he was set up? Set up for what? To take the fall for Wilson LYING? Welcome to Bizarro World. As you RWNJ's love to point out, Libby has nothing to worry about...

    ...if he's innocent.

    But as we all already know, this has nothing to do with what Wilson said. It has everything to do with the administration's reaction, which seems rather, shall we say, focused and aggressive.

    this too is wrrong (none / 0) (#21)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:50:46 AM EST
      The issue is not the Wilson's veracity from both sides.

       Libby could just as easily lied about the means used to discredit Wilson in all of the following scenarios:

      1. What Wilson said was false and no illegal means were used to discredit him.

       2. What wilson said was false and illegal means were used to discredit him.

        3. What Wilson said was true and no iilegal means were used to discredit him.

       4. What wilson said was true and illegal means were used to discredit him.

       The issues here are whether what LIBBY said untrue and if so whether he made untrue statements knowingly and intentionally.

      Wilson, apparently to the chagrin of many on both sides, is pretty much besise the point as far as the trial goes.

    Parent

    Armitage (none / 0) (#22)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:59:05 AM EST

    What I don't understand is that the SP new very early on that Armitage was the leaker, but continued the investigation.  Why?

    Parent
    Amir (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:27:14 PM EST
    That is a very, very, very good question.

    And since he knew the leaker's ID and that Plame was not covered under the law, what was the point?

    ? Politics ?

    Parent

    One more time. (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:11:21 PM EST
    Wilson, apparently to the chagrin of many on both sides, is pretty much besise the point as far as the trial goes.

    Uh, I don't think the Left wants Wilson on the stand.

    The comment has absolutely nothing to do with the trial and everything to do with the actions of Wilson, the  mainstream media and the Leftwing bloggerhood....

    Now if Wilson's article had not existed as he wrote it, nothing would have followed after.

    Parent

    Che (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:14:58 PM EST
    My comment merely notes what Wilson said to the world and to the CIA. I leave it to you to explain why they are different.

    As for Libbby's innocence or guilt, I have no idea.

    I just believe, as I did about Clinton, that the legal proceedings here are political and a waste of time and money.

    Parent

    one reason (none / 0) (#24)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:05:42 AM EST
     is that the investigation pursued evidence that the investigation into the identity of the leaker was being obstructed.

      Another would be the logical fallacy of assuming that just because one person leaked something no one else could have also done it.

      Still another reason, is that the identity of the leaker does not end the inquiry. Not all leaks are illegal. Even knowing who made disclosures does not mean it is established that: (a) the information disclosed was protected information or (b) even it was protected information the disclosure was made with the requisite knowledge and intent for the disclosure to be illegal.

       

    Wow, we could all be a little nicer. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:42:40 AM EST
    Whoa there, soccerdad. No need for the "in your face" attitude up in #29. I know you're particularly irritated by PPJ, and yes, he made a guess that turned out to be wrong. But, you'll note that hellskitchen was also wrong (a search warrant is notably not a subpoena). And yet, you called out PPJ (rather rudely), but not hellskitchen.

    The tenor of the comments around here rises and falls with the temporal proximity of Jeralyn's reminders to behave. After her last admonition about rating the comment and not the commenter I thought things improved. But lately, things seem to have gotten a little out of control.

    For example, one frequent commenter invited me to pee (yes, pee) on them. I'm still not sure what that was about, but someone else thought it was a "good metaphor."

    Maybe this once we could just decide to be a little nicer without Jeralyn having to step in?

    so of course (none / 0) (#31)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:48:49 AM EST
    you see your self as the arbiter of all that is good and polite. How humble of you?

    Telling ppj that he substituted his opinion for evidence was a statement of fact. Get over yourself


    Parent

    Definitely not 'civil' (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:07:08 PM EST
    or 'decorous' to start presenting facts now Soc. Who do you think you are? Some kind of "factanista", now? ;-)

    Parent
    SD (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:20:45 PM EST
    I wrote:

    Most likely it is for arrest

    If you can't figure out that is an opinion I can't help you.

    You're just angry because I frequently use the words of the Left against them. And yes, that includes you. Especially you.

    Parent

    the point is (none / 0) (#45)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:07:28 PM EST
    it was a flippant guess at what had happened in order to demean the study based on nothing but bias. And the real issue is that you do this all the time. BUt I guess you dont mind showing off how often your opinion is wrong.

    The rest of your "retort" is empty nonsense

    Parent

    SD (1.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:05:05 PM EST
    Flippant?

    SD, grow up for heavens sake. Your letting your juvenile side show again.


    Parent

    You are projecting here (none / 0) (#80)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:07:04 PM EST
    Powerful stuff (none / 0) (#107)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 07:53:09 PM EST
    old poker

    ROTFLMAO


    Parent

    Humble? No. Capable of observation? Yes. (none / 0) (#47)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:09:56 PM EST
    soccerdad, noting that an inordinate amount of rudeness is going on is not a function of humility, but rather one of observation.

    For example, a commenter this morning wrote

    People like you invented the notion of race just so that you could have someone to feel superior to.

    I am sure that you consider yourself as part of the Master Race.

    It doesn't take any humility to notice that this is offensive (not to mention that a reference to the "Master Race" comes awful close to violating Godwin's Law).

    I pointed it out on this morning, rather than some time ago, simply because it's finally starting to bother me. I may not be an "arbiter of all that is good and polite" (I never claimed to be), but you won't find "pee on me" type of condescension in any of my posts here at TalkLeft. Nor have I taken to calling my ideological opponents evil, stupid, or disingenuous just because we happen to disagree.

    Parent

    "pee on me" (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:23:12 PM EST
    You seem intent on having a discussion about this, since you keep raising the subject. So I'll volunteer my own interpretation, since I was also the one who referred to it as a "good metaphor". My opinion of it was as a metaphor for your viewpoint and attitude of ignorance and dismissal of serious problems affecting the entire world including the commenter who said "pee on me". A way of describing your offensive attitude, in other words.

    Secondly the commenter who this morning wrote    

    People like you invented the notion of race just so that you could have someone to feel superior to.

    I am sure that you consider yourself as part of the Master Race.

    was also expressing an opinion of you.

    You may not like it. Too bad. It was an opinion. As these explanations are my opinion.

    Now, were those 'civil' enough explanations for you? Or would you prefer that your definition of 'civil' be equated with not drawing attention to you being offensive?

    Do you have a 'civil' response?

    Parent

    By any chance.... (none / 0) (#57)
    by kdog on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:45:55 PM EST
    was the "pee on me" comment a Lou Reed reference?

    One of my favorite Lou Reed lines is..."Give me your tired, your poor...I'll piss on them"

    Maybe it wasn't an insult, just a reference to what Lou Reed was on about.  

    Parent

    Beats me. (none / 0) (#59)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:55:08 PM EST
    The comment is here.

    I don't know who Lou Reed is, but maybe you could take a look and let me know.

    Parent

    Thanks.... (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by kdog on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:09:53 PM EST
    I think it's possible, but not likely.  More likely to do with bedwetting.

    I can't believe you don't know who Lou Reed is....Velvet Underground dude!  A great American poet.

    Dirty Boulevard

    Now I know I've been misquoting him all these years...s/b "Give me your hungry, your tired your poor Ill piss on em
    Thats what the statue of bigotry says"

    Parent

    Did Lou (none / 0) (#61)
    by Peaches on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:56:45 PM EST
    Open your mouth?

    It was a strange comment. I think Edger's explanation is probably on track, but it was not a very good metaphor for many reasons, not least of which is that it was predicated by Gabriel calling the "Doomsayers" bedwetters. I guess the idea of bedwetter broght urine to the mind of aw, so she decided to ask Gabe to pee on her. I was truly baffled, but once again, I did find it hilarious-almost peed my own pants.

    In defense of Gabe, who I have almost nothing in common with politically, his arguments are articulate and deserve consideration, imo. I can understand why some find his arguments offensive, but Gabe's presentations of these arguments rarely are.

    Parent

    bedwetters (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:06:10 PM EST
    I guess the idea of bedwetter broght urine to the mind of aw, so she decided to ask Gabe to pee on her. I was truly baffled, but once again, I did find it hilarious-almost peed my own pants.

    Yes, aw had a bit too much wine and ran wild with the bedwetter analogy. Over the top and hilarious for me too.

    I find it disingenuous of Gabriel to be playing dumb on this. Guess he wants to distance himself from the fact that he is a bedwetter like most of the prowar terrorism enablers.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#67)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:14:02 PM EST
    [new] Pee on me (none / 0) (#13)
    by aw on Sun Jan 21, 2007 at 07:47:26 PM EST

    Do it Gabe, pee on me.  I'll even open my mouth.

    I like Edger's interpretation - that the (metaphorical, presumably) act of peeing on someone is done to express the pee-er's disdain for the peed-on - but the "I'll even open my mouth" part is really out there. I'm uncomfortable even speculating what that specific reference might refer to...

    Parent

    speculating what that specific reference... (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:50:12 PM EST
    ...might refer to?

    Sarcasm. It's saying 'go ahead p*** on me' - And while you're at it would you like complete submission too? IOW 'I'll even open my mouth'

    You not only want to destroy my world by ignoring global climate change, disparaging any attempts to correct or acknowledge it, and continuing to support a regime poisoning the environment, you want me to roll over and accept it too....

    That is how I understood it.

    Parent

    Okey dokey. (none / 0) (#75)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 04:00:10 PM EST
    eeewwwwww (none / 0) (#87)
    by Jen M on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:26:11 PM EST
    Yuck yuck gaaah

    Parent
    I should note... (none / 0) (#62)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:57:51 PM EST
    ...that I haven't seen aw around here since then, so it's possible that Jeralyn already said something about it.

    Parent
    I would also think that, to be "civil", (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:30:58 PM EST
    if you are going to focus on this with quotes you might also be honest enough to quote your own comments that aw replied to.

    For context. As part of your touching concern about the "tenor of the comments around here" and your feeling that "things seem to have gotten a little out of control", and of course, your own admonitions that "we could all be a little nicer".

    You think? You know, as part of your drive for "civility" and inoffensiveness?

    Myself, I felt that aw's comment was rather restrained, considering the context. Personally? I would have used a different form of the same verb, and reversed the direction. But hey, that's just me. And it would have been my own response. ;-)

    Be civil now....

    Parent

    Be civil now... (none / 0) (#71)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:34:44 PM EST
    because it will help you avoid laughing as hard as I did when I first read the comment. ;-)

    Parent
    Not about me. (none / 0) (#68)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:21:45 PM EST
    I didn't notice your comment earlier, Edger, but I'd just like to note for the sake of accuracy that the "Master Race" comment was not, in fact, directed at me.

    Parent
    Ok. My bad. (none / 0) (#70)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:33:31 PM EST
    It doesn't really change the fact that it was an opinion of someone considered offensive, by someone who felt offended. I personally have no trouble with or qualms about offending those I consider the most offensive people in the world.

    Parent
    et al (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:12:20 PM EST
    Sounds like to me there's a whole lot of offending going around..

    Parent
    Usually from you (none / 0) (#84)
    by Sailor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:20:17 PM EST
    Examples follow:


     by PPJ aka Jim

    June 7, 2005 01:33 PM


    SD - Are you daft?



    Posted by JimakaPPJ

    February 4, 2006 09:12 PM

    Squeaky - In the event you can't grasp the reference ...

    Posted by JimakaPPJ

    August 27, 2005 08:30 AM


    DA - That's quite a lisp you have developed there. Have you sought medical attention, or are you just trying to avoid being called on spelling, grammar and typing errors?


     Posted by JimakaPPJ

    August 27, 2005 11:09 AM


    DA [...] Could it be a brain tumor? Or just lack of a brain?


     Posted by PPJ (aka Jim)

    February 17, 2005 02:46 PM

    hardleft - You are obtuse.


    Posted by JimakaPPJ

    August 25, 2005 11:36 AM

    Well, first you must be smart enough connect the dots[...]


     Posted by PPJ aka Jim

    July 4, 2005 02:47 PM

    kth - Your lack of knowing, or understanding, history is amazing.


     Posted by PPJ aka Jim

    July 4, 2005 02:51 PM

    fat albert - [...] I do hope you are smart enough to understand what I wrote.



    Posted by PPJ aka Jim

    July 4, 2005 10:24 PM

    Hey, makes as much sense as your usual comments. Psychobabble becomes you.

    Posted by JimakaPPJ

    February 9, 2006 06:57 AM

    Gee Johnny

    If u cant figur it out you'll just hav to mis it.



    Posted by PPJ (aka Jim)

    March 15, 2005 06:05 PM

    [...] Your potty mouth demonstrates again your ignorance and reading inability.



    Posted by PPJ (aka Jim)

    April 27, 2005 03:59 PM



    walter - If you have to ask then you are incapable of understanding.


     Posted by JimakaPPJ
    March 13, 2006 04:07 PM


    ... Uh, speaking of nut cases.



     Posted by JimakaPPJ
    March 13, 2006 05:35 PM


    Oh really? What proof do you have for that slur? The answer, of course, is none. It is merely another personal attack, although a little worse than average.

    It is obvious that you can not debate the issues, so you satisfy yourself with trollish activity. Enjoy, you have defined yourself quite well.



    Parent
    Sailor (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:35:28 PM EST
    And I stand by each and everyone of them.

    BTW - Did you ever count the times you called people  "liar?'

    Well, from this link to Google I'd say it is well over 200.

    One of them prompted me to write this:

    Sailor - What a sweetheart you are! Let's review the facts. The link says they can do it. You, with zero proof say they can't and run around in circles calling people liars. Now. Until you can prove their statement wrong, I invite you to quit making dumb statements and calling everyone who you disagree with, a liar.



    Parent
    ::sigh:: n/t (none / 0) (#91)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:56:11 PM EST
    Quality of discourse, right. (none / 0) (#101)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 07:00:13 PM EST
    You guys want civility!? (none / 0) (#109)
    by Sailor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 08:05:36 PM EST
    I say that all the folks on both sides of the aisle call for me and ppj to be banned from the site.

    I'd be happy to never post on TL again as long as ppj, who has literally called for the deaths of American leaders (I'd quote his diatribe again but Jeralyn has asked me not to), is also banned.

    Seems fair to me.

    Parent

    Jeeze, Sailor (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 08:22:24 PM EST
    Quit being so civil, will you? ;-)

    Parent
    A nice polite modicum of (none / 0) (#32)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 11:56:30 AM EST
    'civility' and 'decorum' while we have rational, calm 'discussions' about whether or not to support an abysmal failure of an administration intent on poisoning the planetary environment, attacking unthreatening countries, preparing for some kind of 'rapturist' cataclysm, and imprisoning, torturing, and murdering anyone who gets in their way while they bankrupt the country is just the thing to help stay insulated from painful reality, IOW?

    Sure. You go first.

    Parent

    Gabe (none / 0) (#36)
    by Che's Lounge on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:18:56 PM EST
    People are DYING. Spend a few hours in a Baghdad hospital and maybe you won't feel so collegial. Bush's defenders deserve no quarter. They are worse than treasonous. They are accessories to murder. There's blood flowing like rivers and you want us to be polite? See you in the streets!!!  

    awesome, man (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:07:06 PM EST
      So folks like you, Edgar, aw and BTD, etc.  are excused from being civil because your hearts are pure and your objectives nothing but noble, but folks like me who dare to point out that despite your self-proclaimed pure hearts and noble objectives your thoughtas are often inane and your reasoning blatantly flawed are guilty of being uncivil and name-calling?

      Interesting perspective.

    Parent

    when (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:13:02 PM EST
    the people who complain about my civility also complain about PPJs constant snark then I'll listen.

    It seems some people {not you} here are more concerned with civility than honesty

    There are worse things than not being precisely civil, although there should be a line even for emotional discussion.
    I have crossed that line on occasion and have accepted TL's "punishment".

    Parent

    I agree... (5.00 / 2) (#50)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:24:49 PM EST
      I am not always civil even by my own standards. what amuses me is that some of the people who are the worst offenders when it comes to insulting and calling names have the audacity to whine when people harshly criticize them.

      I don't see anything wrong with calling someone who repeatedly does or says stupid things stupid. Certainly that seems the accepted noem here as regards anyone whose politics diverge from the herd. I just was poking fun at how the herd tends to cry foul when it its members ae on the receiving end.

     

    Parent

    Indeed, the opposite should be true. (none / 0) (#51)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:28:54 PM EST
    Decon, it always amazes me when the argument you describe is made. A call for polite behavior is not a way of handicapping an opponent.

    Truly, if one objective is indeed better than another, one would think it would easier to explain without needing rhetorical fallacies to buttress one's argument. Rather, the side which cannot provide the evidence to show his superior position would have to be the one that resorts to namecalling and flashy argumentation designed to cloud the issue.

    That's the difference between genuine discussion and rhetorical debate. Discussions are about examining the premises and evidence to decide who has the better argument. Rhetoric is about bludgeoning your opponent with words, not to sway him, but to sway or reinforce the already-held beliefs of an audience.

    Parent

    Rhetoric vs. Discussion (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Peaches on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:58:57 PM EST
    According to Dictionary.com Rhetoric is:

    1.    (in writing or speech) the undue use of exaggeration or display; bombast.
    2.    the art or science of all specialized literary uses of language in prose or verse, including the figures of speech.
    3.    the study of the effective use of language.
    4.    the ability to use language effectively.
    5.    the art of prose in general as opposed to verse.
    6.    the art of making persuasive speeches; oratory.
    7.    (in classical oratory) the art of influencing the thought and conduct of an audience.

    When I use the term rhetoric as in rhetorical pesuasion I am referring to #'s 2-7, and in particular #6 and not #1. Obviously,  #1 is opposed to #2-7.

    I agree with SD and Decon. SOmetimes, stupidity and ignorant statements must be called out for what they are. I think SD meets ppj head on. After several years of discussing, arguing, and demonstarting the folly of ppj's arguments, he is tiring of ppj's act.

    I decided long ago that ppj is irrelevant and easy to dismiss. That's not to say I don't enjoy reading him. His approach is quite predicable and, often humorous (THis is coming from someone who used to listen to Rush Limbaugh because he thought it was parody--only later realizing people were taking him seriously). I am not at all sure he isn't engaged in one of the following two things. (get ready for a dose of Peaches conspiracy theories)

    1. He's paid by some republican campaign to spread disinformation and confusion on the web.

    2. He's paid by Jeralyn to agitate, attract and keep commenters coming to her site.

    The other remaining option, which I have also endorsed many times, is that he is truly insane. Regardless, I used to worry about his influence. However, it is now becoming apparent that people like him who hold the same views are in the minority of the population. It is time to dismiss these views as hogwash and begin to tackle real issues-like when are we going to limit corporate power in America? THe power that influences our political process, tax sytem, economic injustice, media consolidation, military industril complex, environment, etc. Now that we can dismiss the Bush apologists it is time to check who else is being held under this power that has spoiled our democracy while stimulating partisan fights between a minority and the rest of us.( e.g. the scientific debate over global warming, free trade advocates and the resulting deline of the middle class in this country, and whether or not abortion is murder, iow the issues that affect us all but we are constantly confused over  and distracted by the fabricated ideological debates supporting policies that benefit an extremely small % of the population at the expense of the majority of us.) Can we really rely on Democrats to put us on a different path? Well, we won't as long as we don't hold there feet to the fire instead being distracted by the likes of people like ppj.

    Parent
    "THis is coming from someone... (none / 0) (#56)
    by desertswine on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:30:40 PM EST
    who used to listen to Rush Limbaugh because he thought it was parody--only later realizing people were taking him seriously."

    HAHAHA... I have to laugh because I thought the very same thing as you did. I thought it was a comedy show.

    Peaches conspiracy theories: Here's a third theory:  he's a relative of TL.

    Parent

    "Rhetorical Fallacies" (none / 0) (#58)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:52:37 PM EST
    When I used the phrase "rhetorical fallacies" I meant things like ad hominems personam, ad hominems tu quoque, two-wrongs-make-a-right, and strawman fallacies which make great rhetoric, but leave much to be desired when working out whether an argument is sound or not.

    I use "rhetoric" in the sense of pursuasion of an audience. This would conform with your definitions 1, 3, 4, 6, and 7. These most common fallacies are effective in  that they can sway a crowd, even though they are logically incoherent. "Sophistry" would work as a description, too.

    Parent

    There is a problem with langauge (none / 0) (#64)
    by Peaches on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:08:45 PM EST
    That was exposed by Godel. Logical coherence is a fallacy by definition. We all use language to persuade an audience. The effective use of language should not be condemned simply because it sways an auudience. The effective interlocutor to one who is an effective rhetorician will always uncover a logical fallacy, inconsistency or incoherence in his or her opponent. To have an argument that is completely immune from such attacks is impossible.

    That said, certainly some arguments are better and more coherent than others. Being able to make these distinctions coherently is a mark of a good rhetorician.

    Parent

    Gabriel (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 06:28:56 PM EST
    Hey, you need to toughen up. They haven't even told you to kill yourself yet.

    Posted by edger at September 3, 2005 01:04 PM

    This may get me kicked off this site, and I'll probably regret saying this later, but here goes...

    Jim... you know how to use a gun?

    Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em...

    You only need one, though...



    Parent
    Are you going to post a link (none / 0) (#100)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 06:58:03 PM EST
    to the full thread for context Jim, for everyone to read? Or do I have to do that for you? Again?

    Parent
    Here you are Jim. ;-) (none / 0) (#102)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 07:08:16 PM EST
    It's a very interesting thread. From a 'character' standpoint. Why don't bookmark it. For future reference, you know? If you lose the bookmark, just ask me. I'll be happy to help, of course.

    Parent
    Edger (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 07:36:34 AM EST
    The thead was about Katrinia:

    Saturday :: September 03, 2005
    Red Cross Banned From Bringing Food and Supplies to Nola

    Posted by edger at September 3, 2005 01:04 PM

    You quote me: .

    "..might consider, though, that the real villian is a MSM and the Far Left..."

    You then write:

    This may get me kicked off this site, and I'll probably regret saying this later, but here goes...
    Jim... you know how to use a gun? Bullets are cheap, and plentiful, you can get lots of 'em almost anywhere if you are out of 'em...
    You only need one, though...

    Your response was to this comment by me.

    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:09 PM EST

    adept writes:


    Only a troll like Jim would pretend there is no difference between keeping small freelance rescue operators out, and barring the freaking Red Cross, the premire disaster relief org. out of New Orleans.

    adept, if you would read before you comment you would see that my comment was directed to Litz. Plus, her comment was about a private rescue attempt plan that existed sometimes in the last 48 hours, not currently. Really, you are just so eager to shoot you can't wait to get your facts straight. As to when the Red Cross should be let in, I have no idea as to the security situation on the ground, and neither does anyone on this blog. The NG may be erring on the side of caution, or they may not. Considering the criticism they would receive if they let the Red Cross in, and then the Red Cross workers were injured, I can hardly blame them for caution. You might consider, though, that the real villian is a MSM and the Far Left which has demonstrated they will criticize anything the military does. And they can't even see that the harm is being done to innocent peopl

    BTW - You want context? Note that my comment was to Adept pointing out that my comment to Litz was not about the Red Cross.

    You really want context? Note that your quote doesn't include the whole sentence which concludes with, "which has demonstrated they will critizize anything the military does."

    You can find all of the above in the archives.

    Link

    BTW - As you read it, please note the personal insults by you and SD that were deleted. Heaven only knows what they said.

    Parent

    Jim? (none / 0) (#117)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 07:40:39 AM EST
    Why do you do this to yourself?

    Parent
    Re: deleted comments? (none / 0) (#120)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 08:17:50 AM EST
    Jim. The Nola/Red Cross thread has 59 comments (59 topical, 0 hidden). Comments 1 thru 59 are all there, Jim. No comments were deleted...

    Why do you lie, Jim? Even when you know you'll be held accountable?

    And more importantly, why do you do this to yourself, Jim? No snark - I really am concerned for you.

    Parent

    Edger - Here they are (none / 0) (#123)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 09:02:10 AM EST
    Lie? Here they are. I just copied them.

    Edger, you need help.

    Re: Red Cross Banned From Bringing Food and Suppli (none / 0) (#53)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    personal insult and name calling of another commenter deleted

     

    Re: Red Cross Banned From Bringing Food and Suppli (none / 0) (#58)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    insult deleted


    Parent
    chi-ching (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by Peaches on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 09:24:38 AM EST
    You got to admit, he's pretty crafty for a old fella. Keeps you on your toes.

    Parent
    That he does. ;-) (none / 0) (#128)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 09:34:24 AM EST
    Oh yes, right Jim. (none / 0) (#127)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 09:29:23 AM EST
    I remember now. The comments are still there but the body of them was deleted. Thanks for refreshing my memory. I recall now what my comment in #58 - it was something to the effect of wondering if you had led a sheltered childhood without much attention given to you that might be one reason for you to always be demanding attention here.

    Parent
    Edger (none / 0) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:14:11 AM EST
    So, you call me a liar and when proven wrong you don't apologize, you just make an excuse.

    As to what the content was, TalkLeft judged them to be bad enough that they were deleted. I think that pretty well defines what was in the deleted comment.

    And no, the "childhood" wasn't the comment. That one was the one in which you repeated the delted comment that SD had just made.

    Let us face the facts, Edger. You are a member of the Leftwing bloggerdom and your method of operation is to attack.  

    Here is the one by SD that was deleted.

    Re: Red Cross Banned From Bringing Food and Suppli (none / 0) (#53)
    by soccerdad on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    personal insult and name calling of another commenter deleted

    Re: Red Cross Banned From Bringing Food and Suppli (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 01:03:10 PM EST
    Soccerdad:

    (from SD's comment)

     PPJ - you are so full of crap. God- you a disgusting human being.

    He's just on another of his baiting rants here again. When he gets little attention he cranks the volume way up... most childen do.

    So you call me (by quoting SD) a disgusting human being that is full of crap and follow that with callig me a child..

    Yes indeed, edger, you are just so full of calm reasoned debate. (Strong sarcasm there.)

    And here is one that is very recent.

    No Jim (none / 0) (#76)

    by Edger on Sat Jan 06, 2007 at 12:35:45 PM EST

    You have the 'understanding' thing all upside down and backwards again.

    Here, boy...

    Edger, be my guest and insult and attack all you want. It just proves my point.


    Parent

    Whatever, Jim (none / 0) (#130)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 10:19:08 AM EST
    You having fun getting all this attention? ;-)

    Parent
    Peaches (none / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 06:21:28 PM EST
    Thanks.. Your comment about thinking Limbaugh was parody cracked me up. Since I take you at your word,
    that removed your crticism from the "maybe I should listen" to "and this guy lectures me??"

    As for SD, we both grew tired of each other years ago. Of course he has been bounced off the site at least two times, if that means anything..

    So keep up the kind words, it's always nice to hear from my "betters."


    Parent

    This is all certainly true (none / 0) (#53)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:02:47 PM EST
    but it takes two to have a real discussion. Sometimes out of frustration rhetorical bludgeoning of the opponent seems to be the only option left. Although I guess if we were all better people we wouldn't stoop, but I'm too emotional sometimes to do what I should.


    Parent
    Sometimes (none / 0) (#54)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:17:59 PM EST
    rhetorical bludgeoning of the opponent is the only option he leaves you.

    Parent
    Edger and SD (none / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 06:22:28 PM EST
    Pity neither of you are capable of doing it.

    Parent
    Deconstructionist (none / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 06:40:45 PM EST
    You know, I am starting to like you.

    Apologies and all that.

    Parent

    et al Why?? (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:48:00 PM EST
    The following is what Wilson said during an unterview at UC Berekely Link

    I was asked to come out to the CIA and discuss this question of whether Saddam could have, or would have, or did attempt to purchase uranium, significant quantities of uranium, from Niger
    .

    Now this is what he said in his NYT editorial:

    While I never saw the report, I was told that it referred to a memorandum of agreement that documented the sale of uranium yellowcake -- a form of lightly processed ore -- by Niger to Iraq in the late 1990's. The agency officials asked if I would travel to Niger to check out the story so they could provide a response to the vice president's office.

    Notice that in his editorial, he mentions only the sale, the "could have" portion, completely ignoring the "would have or did attempt" part of the summons.

    Again. Why.

    I'll never buy anything from Diebold (none / 0) (#42)
    by scribe on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:55:05 PM EST
    We all know about their crappy security:  Not only did they not keep their code secure, but they use the same physical key on all the locks on their hackable voting machines.

    Bad enough?  They made it worse.  They put a picture of the real physical key on their website. A couple of the guys working on the Princeton U. project to hack their machines (to prove they're not secure enough to be used for voting) took a screenshot of the website, went down to the local hardware store and bought some key blanks and files, then worked the blanks.

    Voila! The homemade key worked.

    Niiiiice.

    Diebold is everywhere. (none / 0) (#43)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 12:59:32 PM EST
    I was taking money from an ATM this morning, an ATM I'd used many times before and just happened to notice that the machine was made by Diebold. Why did I notice today? Because the darn thing freaked out declared that my card was "unreadable" and I was looking for a number to call.

    Parent
    I've always been amazed ... (none / 0) (#55)
    by Sailor on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:29:23 PM EST
    ... that diebold makes ATMs that give a paper trail but claimed it was too expensivve to implement on voting machines.

    Parent
    Somethings.... (none / 0) (#111)
    by kdog on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 08:45:08 PM EST
    are more important than others.

    Well said.

    Parent

    re: picture of a real key on their website (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 01:07:45 PM EST
    I guess the've pretty well covered their a$$ for any future actions re hacking collusion, haven't they?

    Parent
    Another Unitary torture of the troops (none / 0) (#60)
    by scribe on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 02:55:53 PM EST
    It turns out, US Marines in Afghanistan are, if not starving on standard rations, coming close to it.

    Federal Computer Week (never heard of it before) reports on a USMC report from their Center for Lessons Learned, which indicates that Marines in Afghanistan are losing 20 to 40 pounds from lack of nutrition from the MREs they're given to eat.  One lost 60 plus pounds and had to be medically evacuated.

    These guys are having to hump (i.e., carry rucksacks and gear) well over half their body weight, in high mountain conditions (5000+ feet altitude, up to 10,000, I'm sure, in spots), for extended periods of time.  

    Years ago, a college friend hiked the Appalachian Trail end-to-end.  Even in those relatively civilized, low-altitude surroundings, he went from 220 to about 180 over the six months it took.  And a lot of that was beer weight.  And, just about everyone who goes through Ranger school winds up gaunt by the end (and packs on pounds shortly thereafter, making up).

    So, I'm not surprised the Marines are dropping some healthy pounds - not that they have flab pounds to drop - but I wish I was astonished the military hadn't recognized the potential problem and proactively upped their rations (or just given them a couple extra Hershey's bars daily for extra calories).  I mean, really, folks.  The Unit has managed to break the military, but sending them off to Valley Forge is not what they signed up for when they went off to fight terrists.  Next thing we'll find out is that they're using bloody rags to substitute for boots the supply system is not providing....

    very interesting (none / 0) (#66)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:11:53 PM EST
      I wish the article linked the actual report. I'd like to know what is  the source of the problem. Is it that sufficient food is available but these guys are operating for extended period beyond supply lines and can only carry so much and there is some reason (tipping as to location?) that supply drops are too risky? Is it  that the brass simply failed to have enough food requisitioned?    Is it that the brass actually did not grasp the obvious that fit young men engaging in high exertion duty will burn a lot of calories? Is it budget? Is it contractors failing to make timely deliveries?

    Parent
    here's the newsletter (none / 0) (#72)
    by scribe on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:42:21 PM EST
    from which the report came. (page 6 of 11 page .pdf)

    What's noteworthy is that the malnutrition seems only one part of the problem of operating in the Afghan mountains.  The report concerns lessons for medical support in the mountains;  the newsletter only gives a synopsis, but the meat is linked behind a security firewall I'm not going through (and probably neither should anyone else).  The excerpt:  

    The Quick Look report notes that dismounted medical support for operations in mountainous terrain has inherent difficulties that are not necessarily addressed by current unit training and issued equipment. Among the preliminary observations from the Quick Look report are:
    • Many units do not have the assets or environment during training to realistically replicate CASEVAC and MEDEVAC operations in mountainous terrain.
    • Evacuating a casualty from the field to the next level of care can take as long as 72 hours. There is a need for formalized training on extended patient care for every corpsman deploying to combat.
    • Current individual physical fitness standards (and Iraq-centric pre-deployment training) do not adequately address the difficulties encountered in dismounted operations in mountainous terrain.
    • The standard meal, ready to eat (MRE) does not provide adequate nutrition for dismounted operations in this type of terrain. Many Marines and soldiers lost 20 to 40 pounds of bodyweight during their deployment. (At least one solider was evacuated due to malnutrition and a 60 pound weight loss.)


    Parent
    scribe (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:43:46 PM EST
    Jesus scribe..

    You take a perfectly interesting article and then screw it up by making a claim that it's Bush fault.

    Yeah. Sure. Wait! I just remembered he can cause huricanes, so ....... (sarcasm alert)

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#92)
    by roy on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 06:05:47 PM EST
    Well, Scribe didn't blame Bush, but I will...

    Maybe President Bush didn't read enough comic books in Harvard.  As the saying goes, "With great power there must also come great responsibility".

    Bush has certainly used the power that comes with the title of Command in Chief, why are you letting him avoid the responsibility?  He sent the military to Afghanistan (and good on him for that).  He sets military policy.  They are, in essence, his soldiers.

    Parent

    Roy (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 06:32:47 PM EST
    And there was a fly in the soup this morning...not mention a sparrow fell..

    What this is a neat way to complain about Bush using the old "Buck stops here..." position.

    If you want to do that, let's all just up, give him all he wants... and then complain if it doesn't work.

    Parent

    So what if it is just a way to complain? (none / 0) (#108)
    by roy on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 08:01:05 PM EST
    Complaining is part of the process of dicussion.  If it's OK to praise Bush when things go well, it's OK to complain about him when something goes badly.

    When only one half of the equation is aired, people don't have enough information to make good decisions.  I'd expect a "strong on national defense" guy like you to want people to make good decisions about this stuff.

    If you'll forgive me for over-extending your metaphor...

    If there's a fly in the soup, and there's one man in charge of soup, and he got his position on a soup-centric campaign, you'd complain about that one man.  You wouldn't just eat around the fly and say how tasty it is.

    Parent

    Roy (none / 0) (#122)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 08:52:54 AM EST
    As I noted, I found the comment by scribe very interesting. What I also found was that his attacks don't help.

    If you think constantly attacking organizations and people that you have disagreements with is an effective way to solve problems you must live a very intersting business and commercial life.

    Parent

    if only you took your own advice (none / 0) (#125)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 09:04:48 AM EST
    If you think constantly attacking organizations and people that you have disagreements with is an effective way to solve problems

    and your constant attacks on liberals, the left and others accomplishes what then?

    Physician heal thy self or at least drop the blatent hypocrisy

    Parent

    Now (none / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 06:35:21 PM EST
    See my comment to Roy.

    And anyine who has actually been around the military knows that multiple things go wrong and that you don't change leaders every 15 minutes.

    Somehow I think you care more about hating Bush than supportin the troops.

    Parent

    Ahhhhhh.... that warn glow of denial. (none / 0) (#105)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 07:36:44 PM EST
    Feel better now, Jim?

    Parent
    Nowonmai (none / 0) (#121)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 08:45:39 AM EST
    If you want to be critical of a President for a decision to do something, that is certainly every citizen's right.

    Presidents do not do war planning. If you think they do then you are just misinformed.

    I understand that you hate Bush and that you are anti the WOT. You claim to want to get the troops out, but help them out while they are there.

    Do you believe that constant demands to bring them home improve the morale of the enemy that is attacking the troops?

    Do you believe that morale is an important part of military success?

    If you do not, why not?

    If you are willing to admit that the enemey's morale is improved, and that this makes them more willing to fight because they see the US as divided, then answer this.

    Aren't your actions harming the troops?

    Parent

    and people (none / 0) (#124)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 09:02:25 AM EST
    are supposed to be civil to this kind of attack and crap?

    Parent
    SD (none / 0) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:43:59 PM EST
    My comment was a very calm statement in which I asked questions. The questions can be answered or ignored. Note no name calling, no vulgar remarks. Just an opportunity to debate.

    Parent
    give me a break (none / 0) (#137)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:48:36 PM EST
    attacks do not have to have vulgarity.

    we both know that

    Parent

    Yeah I found that (none / 0) (#74)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 03:51:10 PM EST
    but I meant the actual report not the "quick look" bullet which is the same thing you posted. It might be there but the actual report is not available, yet anyway. I'd be very interested in knowing the reasons for the inadequate nutrition.

    it might (none / 0) (#89)
    by Jen M on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:36:50 PM EST
    be classified

    Parent
    Cheney and Blitzer (none / 0) (#76)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 04:32:05 PM EST
    As Josh Marshall says it's a doozy.

    TPM Cafe

    He fesses up to one blunder (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by Dadler on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 07:10:31 PM EST
    Which is hilarious, first of all, and pathetic second of all.

    And the blunder he talks about -- underestimating the effect on the population of 30 years of tryanny -- should have been the EASIEST to figure out.  Good lord, if you don't understand the implications of decades of tyranny then you understand nothing to start with.

    A bully, a wretch, and a haughty fool.  A man who needs a serious whoopin'.  One of those people who will do their best work for the country the moment they draw their last breath.

    Off the charts egomaniacal and crazy.

    Parent

    Curiouser... (none / 0) (#78)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:04:17 PM EST
    Cheney doesn't want to go after Al-Sadr, obviously...

    Parent
    Sovereignty (none / 0) (#85)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 05:20:42 PM EST
    My take is that deadeye doesn't want to give the impression that he is running the show in Iraq and the current government is a puppet regime.

    From TPM Cafe:

    The New York Times checks in on democracy in Iraq, where "nearly every session" of the parliament has been adjourned since November... because as few as 65 of the 275 members there showed up.

    Why? It's irrelevant: "Deals on important legislation, most recently the oil law, now take place largely out of public view, with Parliament -- when it meets -- rubber-stamping the final decisions."

    Democracy at work.

    Parent

    Democratic Revolution (none / 0) (#104)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 07:33:54 PM EST
    neocon style, at work...

    Parent
    Hagel (none / 0) (#112)
    by soccerdad on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 09:22:58 PM EST
    loses it, worth seeing here

    It's starting (none / 0) (#113)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 24, 2007 at 10:30:09 PM EST
    Let me get this straight (none / 0) (#114)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 12:22:30 AM EST
    Scribe links an article about the troops' hardships.

    Jim accuses Scribe of blaming Bush, even tho Scribe's comment never mentions the CinC.

    Scribe's issue is promptly left by the wayside.

    And Gabe desires civility? If you can't stand the heat, then stop the guy with the matches. Don''t harp on us for smacking inflammatory comments.

    Che (none / 0) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 07:53:39 AM EST
    You need to read the complete thread rather than just one comment that may be wrong. This is what scribe wrote. And if that isn't criticism I have never seen it.

    The Unit has managed to break the military, but sending them off to Valley Forge is not what they signed up for when they went off to fight terrists.  Next thing we'll find out is that they're using bloody rags to substitute for boots the supply system is not providing....

    My comment was simple. He had made a very interesting comment about a problem. Why the attack on Bush? Presidents are around for four years at a shot. They set goals, make budgets, etc. They don't manage the ration levels of the troops. They don't determine the effectiveness of weapon systems.

    Rational people understand this. And when you attach such a comment to a very good question about the military, you mask the problem.

    The funny thing about this is that the one thing Bush can do is change the top level commanders. He just did so, to a lot of critcism from the Demos, the Left and the MSM.

    Parent

    The President does not "do" ... (none / 0) (#119)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 08:11:55 AM EST
      a lot of things, but is still responsible for them being done.

      I agree that the hyperbole of which you complain was silly. Surely, you are accustomed to that by now.

       However, do not let absurd overstatement make you miss the important points. Part of a President's job is making deployment decisions based upon the "readiness" of the forces. Even a very worthy objecive does not automatiucally mean a mission should be green-lighted. The President and the brass need to PLAN and make sure sufficient manpower with the appropriate skills and materials for them are available.

       I'm sure you do not challenge the assertion that, in MANY aspects, under Bush, we have undertaken military missions with insufficient planning, a lack of appreciation of the resources required and a failure to be prepared for possible if not likely contingencies.

       In the larger world, the invective and profound bias found here would undermine the persuasiveness of people making criticisms even when the essence of the criticism is valid.

      This is not the larger world. This is a small self-selected group in which emotional diatribes  are generally found more persuasive than anything else -- as long as they are directed at the enemies of the choir.

       I will also say that you can be as guilty as them oif refusing to consider opposing views. this place would be MUCH better, not so much if everyone was "civil" but if everyone was willing to think about things rather than simply endlessly and mindlessly defend or attack everything based solely upon preconceived bias.

    Parent

    Deconstructionist (none / 0) (#131)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:07:10 PM EST
    Yes and no. There has to be a line between blaming the boss and demanding that he leave and blaming the boss for a screw up by one of his worker bees.

    As for the "war plans," I simply don't know. What criticism I have seen has mostly came from people that I do not trust. I would be happy to note the three mistakes I think we made in Iraq.

    1. We did not bomb the place into the ground. Sad to say, before you can be assured of having someone's heart and mind you must be assured that you have him by the throat.

    2. I do not and did not think that they would be happy with our being there for very long. That's where comment 1 comes from.

    3. You never let a retreating army just melt away.
    You destroy it by killing as many as you can and by putting the remainder under POW status and keep them there until the situation is stable.
    See comment 2.

    I do not blame anyone for the above. No one tries to do bad, and I believe that there was a lot of discussion that went on.

    You must also remember that at that point in time, everyone believed that Iraq had WMD's, etc., etc., so therefore the time in which to act was limited.

    I do not challenge anyone's right to be critical. My point is that to do so with totally negative comments is counter productive.. and yes, I'm guilty of doing that from time to time... and BION I have posted favorably on the need for NHC, minority rights, drug war reform, etc. I do not call myself a Social Liberal for nothing.

    So to attack any President over "not enough armor," "the rations aren't adequate," etc. is just not reasonable. He made the decision to go to war. To nit pick over such details accomplishes nothing and does nothing to address the President's decisions. Surely those who oppose them can do so without claiming the President is starving the troops.

    As I have commented, before I became a ROF I always demanded that anyone who reported to me who had really vocal/highly critical complaint of any policy/plan/program also have a fairly detailed suggestion on how to correct the problem.

    To that end, I would ask anyone who wants to bring the troops home, explain their strategy for preventing Iraq from falling into utter chaos and become the center for world wide terrorism directd by Iran and Syria.

    And if they reject my belief that this would happen, will they be willing to accept the blame when that happens?

    BTW - Anyone who wants to answer, please leave out the "blame" for being there. Just stick with the problem at hand. That is what the evil, heartless Bush has to do.

    BTW - I hope you noticed I apologized for thinking you just another Leftie.

    Parent

    still with the blatent propaganda. (none / 0) (#132)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:19:24 PM EST
    You must also remember that at that point in time, everyone believed that Iraq had WMD's, etc., etc., so therefore the time in which to act was limited.


    Parent
    SD (none / 0) (#134)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:35:02 PM EST
    Your comment is noted. Whether it is right or wrong has nothing to with NOW.

    Which, of course, is where the problem lies that must be solved.

    Parent

    and more faulty logic (none / 0) (#133)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:22:59 PM EST
    To that end, I would ask anyone who wants to bring the troops home, explain their strategy for preventing Iraq from falling into utter chaos and become the center for world wide terrorism directd by Iran and Syria.

    This of course presupposes that one of the major reasons for the insurgency is not the presence of US troops; which is  not the case.

    There is no chance of political stability under occupation, unless you kill everyone which you would be perfectly happy to do.

    Parent

    SD (none / 0) (#135)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:40:39 PM EST
    So your answer is that if the troops are brought home now Iraq will not first fall into chaos and endure a very savage civil war resulting in the country coming under rule by the Shia terrorists and Iran by proxy.

    Okay. Point, but not strategy, noted. I have bookmarked it for future reference.

    I pray God I won't have the need to show it to you.

    Parent

    Well, I am a "lefty" (none / 0) (#138)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 02:11:18 PM EST
     and you should not suggest  that just because some "Lefties" are irrational slogan=parrtoting drones that such characterizes all or even most Lefties, just as I do not suggest that because some "Righties" are also irrational slogan-parroting drones that all or most are.

      Yhere are many people of intelligence and honor among the left and right. Unfortunately, because often the loudest voices on both sides are the most shrilly ignorant ones it sometimes appears this is the norm.

    Parent

    Deconstructionist (none / 0) (#142)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:01:49 PM EST
    I will be happy to remove you from my list of Moonbats. As to the actions of the "typical" Lefty, I cannot quite agree.

    I am sure that the comments on this blog, over the years has clouded my vision and, perhaps unduly in many cases, sharpened my tongue.

    I have also noted that the Left and the Right are just opposite sides of the same coin.

    Parent

    I'm not sure (none / 0) (#144)
    by Jen M on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:24:14 PM EST
    I think there is more too it. There seems to be left - right north-south

    there are left-righ libertarians too, I think, who differ a lot from the traditional "left-right" There are progressives among the democratic party who are different from the centrists just as the 'neocons' are different from republican centrists. And the "neocons" seem to be splitting from the "Christion Right" just as the progressives are merging with the "Cristian Progressives"

    and lets call the whole thing OOOFFFFF

    Parent

    I forgot (none / 0) (#147)
    by Jen M on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:32:41 PM EST
    in mathspeak

    left - right = x axis
    libertarian - totolitarian = x axis
    religious fundamentalism - atheism = z axis

    ther are people to be found anywhere in that sphere

    Parent

    And... (none / 0) (#145)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:29:46 PM EST
    Many Lefties will argue I am wrong about the typical "Righty" and we get exactly nowhere.

    Most often the problem is with people who cannot do anything but view every event, idea, argument, and perhaps life itself, except through the distorting prism of their ideology.  

    Parent

    Bemoaning the lack of civility? (none / 0) (#115)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 01:13:22 AM EST
    Liberals are "slow learners".... and Gabe was making such a good faith effort.

    It's all the fault of the left, of course, for emboldening the terrorists.

    Jim (none / 0) (#139)
    by Che's Lounge on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 02:13:03 PM EST
    My solutions would involve more than just troop movements. If you are handing over responsibility, then hand it all.

    Che (none / 0) (#141)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 02:56:15 PM EST
    Then you would be willing to give Bush everything he wants?

    I don't think so. Nice try, but a double standard.

    And no strategy, just an excuse.

    Parent

    SD (none / 0) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:11:35 PM EST
    Then your strategy is to leave now and accept whatever the results of a civil war brings.

    I guess you could call that a strategy...So you have no qualms about the thousands of Iraqis that will die because we left?

    Now. What would be your long term strategy to contain the emboldened terrorists that will cause, and what is your economic policy to relieve the huge global impact when Iran is driving up the price of oil?

    And will you be willing to let Iran takeover the remainder of the ME killing millions of Sunis, and, of course, destroying Israel?

    And would you be willing to accept Iran having nuclear weapons? Remember. Besides destroying Israel, a nuclear Iran will effectively remove Europe as an ally, ruling it through terror.

    projection (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by soccerdad on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 04:02:30 PM EST
    Then your strategy is

    I never said what my strategy was exactly. I was simply pointing out the fallicy of your position.

    So you have no qualms about the thousands of Iraqis that will die because we left

    You have no qualms about the Iraqis we have already killed never mind those we will continue to kill all for American imperialims

    Now. What would be your long term strategy to contain the emboldened terrorists
    By staying and refusing to work for peace anywhere in the ME we are making more terrorist by the day. By staying in Iraq we provide them with on the job training.

    and what is your economic policy to relieve the huge global impact when Iran is driving up the price of oil?

    Well well now you have finally gotten to the crux.
    Iran by itself cannot run the price of oil up to stratospheric limits. Russia combined with Iran and other former USSR counties could. Whats your plan fight everyone for oil including Russia.

    And will you be willing to let Iran takeover the remainder of the ME killing millions of Sunis, and, of course, destroying Israel?
    This is a false proposition. Our staying in iraq emboldens dissidents in many countries. Since we are unable to control Iraq the region becomes more unstable. We are unable, except for the massive use of Nukes, to secure the region militarily.

    Most imporatantly trying to solve what is for the most part a political problem with military force is doom to failure in the long run. Thats the lesson of history.

    And would you be willing to accept Iran having nuclear weapons?
    I think the best way to handle that is to try and remove the factors motivating the Iranians. I would prefer denuclearization of the entire region and that includes Israel. To get to such a point would take many years of honest hard negotiation and the US removing its military from Arab soil.

    Remember. Besides destroying Israel, a nuclear Iran will effectively remove Europe as an ally, ruling it through terror.
    This of course is ludicrous, since Israel already has 400 nukes and US nukes are throughout Europe. The real danger is in the uranium etc leaking into the blackmarket from former Soviet Union countries.

    Bush has failed, he has made the world more dangerous. We dont have the military for domination of the ME by military means. Bush had the opportunity right after the fall of Saddam to do things correctly, i.e. help them rebuild, provide security and then get out. He chose not to do that.

    We are in a gigantic hole, the first step is to stop digging.

    Parent

    This (none / 0) (#146)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:30:45 PM EST
    So you have no qualms about the thousands of Iraqis that will die because we left?

    Is about the most insulting kind of disingenous projection and blame shifting attempt there is, and it is one you try to use often. It doesn't work anymore. But I'm not surprised you continue to repeat it. Without enough imagination to understand the mistake in the first place you are reduced to doing everything you can do to avoid taking responsibility for it.

    The Iraqis would not be dying had not Bush, with the idiotic support he had and still has, invaded Iraq in the first place.

    Parent