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English Only at Catholic School in Wichita

Requiring students to speak only in English while they're at school is an affront to the students' ownership of their own identities. It may be reasonable to ask students to speak to teachers in English, but prohibiting students from speaking to each other in their native languages is insensitive, offensive, and discriminatory against students who do not speak English as a first language.

The Catholic Diocese of Wichita says [St. Anne Catholic School] enacted the policy to deal with Spanish-speaking students who were using their native language to bully other children or insult teachers and administrators without their knowledge.

Are the teachers really insulted if they don't know they've been insulted? Wouldn't hiring more bilingual staff members be a better solution to the perceived problem?

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    The Full Scoop (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by reedsanchez on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 10:34:16 PM EST
    I agree with JamakaPPJ's comment that - as a private institution - the school can enact many policies whose legality (or indeed Constitutionality) may be questionable if occurring in a public school.  

    It could also be argued that the children - whose parents probably made the decision for them to attend the school - are being denied their own self-expression as a result of the very religiosity of the institution.  Maybe they would prefer to be Buddhist, or Muslim.  By choosing to go to that school, they forfeit that choice while at that school.  

    I also think that these students - most of whom likely speak Spanish at home - would benefit from being forced to converse in English for the relatively short time for which they are required to be at school.  The only reasonable excuse I can imagine for a student REQUIRING to speak in Spanish to another student is that he or she is unable to understand something and doesn't know how to express their question in English.  

    For that probably not uncommon situation I believe that requiring that teachers pursue more training on providing for ESL students' needs is a perfectly reasonable solution.  Older students whose first language is also Spanish could also be enlisted as tutors/translators/assistant-teachers if the problem persists.

    I think that it is intuitively and demonstrably true that the more a person is forced to converse in a language, the better grasp of that language they will attain.  Allowing these students to speak in Spanish when they will be expected to primarily speak English later in life is to do them a great disservice. Spanish is a crutch upon which they should not be allowed to rely.

    Furthermore, I do not think that asking that requiring students to speak English at a school in which the classes are taught in English is an affront to their ownership of their own identities.  No one is telling them that Spanish is an inferior language or that Spanish-speaking people are somehow any less than English-speaking people - native or not.  The existence of foreign language classes in nearly every high school in the country demonstrates that.

    These children speaking Spanish at a school in which the classes are taught in English would be like me - a native English speaker - speaking English in French class.  I'm expected to learn French, so I should be forced to use it during French class.  

    The only manner in which the students' "ownership of their own identities" is being endangered in this instance is the same way in which everyone's ownership of their own identities is endangered, by gaining knowledge that alters the way we view the world - and thus our identity.

    Welcome (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by NMvoiceofreason on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 12:54:48 AM EST
    Thanks for adding you voice to the discussion.

    Legally they have one set of options. Most have a set of stupid "balancing tests" so that nobody can ever figure out what the judge has to do and so they can do whatever they want and everybody just has to guess at what they are legally required to do.

    Morally, the correct thing to do is require every student to be able to hold a conversation in each of five languages to graduate. People in Europe do it all the time. Either American children are genetically defective and inferior to their European ancestors (Or African, or Asian, where the same applies) or we are just accepting an inferior product from our educational system.

    Ask the kids to do more. Challenge them. Give them high goals and help them achieve them. Using "English Only" is a crutch for not being able to teach effectively, and should not be tolerated.

    Parent

    Welcome (none / 0) (#9)
    by Gabriel Malor on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 11:17:19 PM EST
    Welcome to TalkLeft.

    Parent
    English Only (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Gabriel Malor on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 10:59:10 PM EST
    TChris writes:

    Are the teachers really insulted if they don't know they've been insulted?

    I hope you're being facetious. Of course a person can be insulted without their knowledge. But that's not even the point.

    School administrations are well within their authority to curb disruptive behavior, even behavior that enjoys constitutional protection outside of the school setting.

    Requiring students to speak only in English while they're at school is an affront to the students' ownership of their own identities.

    As is forbidding them to use obscene language, punishing them for using pro-drug speech, or prohibiting political speech which is disruptive. All administrative impositions curtail students' identities, but that's necessary for schools to fulfill their purpose.

    Students who wanted to wear t-shirts with the Confederate Battle Flag on it made the same argument you make, TChris. And judges laughed them right out the courthouse doors.

    "Identity" does not justify disruption.

    WWJSay (3.00 / 2) (#12)
    by bernarda on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 04:45:05 AM EST
    I guess for the Catholics there, if English was good enough for Jesus and Mary, it must be good enough for their students.

    Pope Benedickhead has just re-allowed mass in Latin. To be really purist, these school administrators should require that everyone speak in Latin. Why stop there? Bring on Aramaic.

    Parent

    Legally... (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by J42t11 on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 10:13:06 PM EST
    I think the aspect of this whole debate that's getting missed is not the potential liability of Spanish speakers bullying/insulting/writing love poems to/whatever English speakers, but Spanish speakers harassing or bullying other Spanish speakers. Could the school potentially be held responsible for that? I wouldn't want to be the administrator who took that risk. I agree with the statements above that more bilingual teachers is a better solution than banning the language, but the school has to work within its budget with the applicant pool that is available. If you get 2 bilingual applicants for 7 positions, you wind up with a lot of teachers who don't speak Spanish and cannot step in to a potentially hurtful situation because they have no idea what's being said. I think in this case the school is doing what they can with the resources they have available.

    code language (none / 0) (#1)
    by diogenes on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 08:36:57 PM EST
    If the Latino students were beating up on black students with the aid of Spanish and used the Spanish equivalent of the N word to black teachers, then people would feel differently, I suspect.  But since it's white kids and teachers, then they have to learn to sit and take it.
    Anyone who feels insulted can always go to public school.  I bet that the parents who went to the trouble to put their kids in Catholic school want them to learn English and stay out of trouble.

    thats the end (none / 0) (#2)
    by Jen M on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 08:39:23 PM EST
    of French class. Or Latin, German and Spanish and... well, anything other than english.

    Aw, come on. You're smarter than that. (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 09:12:54 PM EST
    The issue isn't learning a second language, it is learning to function in the language of the country that the parents have moved to.

    It is also accepting the discipline and following the rules of the school.

    This is a private school. The teachers should just toss'em out and get on with teaching those who want to learn.

    Parent

    You can take a foreign language (none / 0) (#8)
    by Jen M on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 11:06:07 PM EST

    But don't DARE practice.

    oh wait, it only applies to Hispanics. If it is your native language you aren't allowed to speak it but if you are learning it you can? But you can't practice with a native speaker.

    Yeah. That is really intelligent.  

    I grew up surrounded by Portuguese. I spoke English whenever I damn well pleased.  Thirty years after leaving Brazil and not speaking much my accent is still mistaken for native Brazilian.

    Bilingual kids have advantages monglots will never comprehend.

    Lets deny it to everyone we can.

    "Force them to speak English so they will speak English better."  How moronic.  You aren't smarter than that. Its a polyglot thing. You wouldn't understand.

    Parent

    heh (none / 0) (#14)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 09:42:24 AM EST
    From the post, it appears that no one is against children learning a second language. The issue is disciple and keeping the Mexican children speaking English in an attempt to help them learn English, which, btw, is a second language to them.

    But some parents have complained about the policy, saying St. Anne is discriminating against Spanish speakers.
    "It's an injustice," said Clara Silva, whose sixth-grade son now attends another Catholic school after attending St. Anne since pre-kindergarten.
    Silva said she has contacted an attorney and the Wichita branch of the NAACP.

    The above is the core of the issue and why immigration has become such a hot issue and while it will become even hotter.

    If the parents of the children involved do not want everything possible done to help them learn English, the question becomes:

    Why are they here?

    Did they come to be part of us? Apparently not.

    But even then, it is a private school. Public schools are offered that Silva has more of a right to complain about. She has no right to bother a private school that she doesn't want her son to attend.


    Parent

    good (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jen M on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 12:04:26 PM EST
    I hope they all leave that school. I hope the Spanish speaking kids make up enough of a percentage that their exodus closes the school.

    Let them try to replace the students and the money.

    Forcing a kid to speak one language is stupid, mean, discriminating, idiotic, moronic, shallow, futile (doesn't make a difference, won't work, is useless. Not sure how to put it in a way you have a chance of getting.) No one is doing it to help them, that is a lie and everyone knows it. It is rationalizing. There is no reason to do it except the poor fragile monoglots get their feelings hurt. Maybe the school should try hiring adults.

    Adults that understand Spanish. That way they could give the lesson my father always tried to instill in us. "Never assume we are the only ones who understand English."

    No of course they don't want to stop second language learning.They just BANNED other languages. Tell me how that works. Tell me how to convince a kid that a second language is worth learning when you just BANNED THEIR USE. I guess that is what passes for logic among your lot.

    Ask the Native Americans how those kinds of policies work.

    By the way, since you are not raised bilingual and have no experience or knowledge of that. Kids learn the language. You can't stop it. The kids will learn English, the kids will learn Spanish.

    Banning the language in the school just makes the parents of the Spanish speakers mad. Why? DUH because they don't want their kids to feel like they've been banned HELLO. IT HURTS. I mean, what kind of human doesn't get that?

    Parent

    It seems that your early childhood (none / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 04:05:25 PM EST
    experiences color your position rather vividly.

    If they do not want to follow the rules, I also urge them to leave rather than file a suit over some twisted vision of "rights."

    I repeat.

    They don't have to be in this country.

    They don't have to attend this school.

    Your rhetoric aside, the school did not ban the teaching of a second language.  

    And the school is not forcing the children to speak one language. They are forcing them to speak one language in the school.

    And yes, part of the issue is culture. Here again I note.

    They don't have to be in this country.

    They don't have to attend this school.

    And yes, we should look at the  NA's and understand the cost of losing wars. Both military and cultural.

    Parent

    because every single hispanic in this country (none / 0) (#18)
    by Jen M on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 05:12:51 PM EST
    is an immigrant? Interesting assumption. Why do you assume that? Is that what you believe? You think Puerto Ricans are all nasty bad furriners too?

    This is not an issue about immigration. Just because you hate immigrants and think every Spanish speaker is one doesn't make this about immigration.

    My outlook is colored by my "early childhood" (in three countries through high school graduation in Central America) experience and knowledge. You cannot stop a child from learning the languages around him. Can't be done. The rule is not intended to help the Spanish speaking children but to hurt, insult and demean them.

    I'm with you. I hope the Spanish speaking kids are all withdrawn, bankrupting the school, forcing all the other kids to find new ones.

    Parent

    Perhaps you should read the link. (none / 0) (#26)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 08:02:46 AM EST
    Before you make claims.

    From it we know they were not born in the US.

    The Catholic Diocese of Wichita says the school enacted the policy to deal with Spanish-speaking students who were using their native language to bully other children or insult teachers and administrators without their knowledge.

    Are they here illegally? We don't know, but:

    He also noted that the diocese has a history of inclusion and diversity and doesn't question students or parishioners about their legal status.

    And, yes it is an issue about immigration. Specifically about illegal aliens. Presently there are 12 to 15 million illegal aliens in the country, the vast majority Spanish speaking and of Mexican nationally.

    Again. This is about a private school, not a public school, enforcing rules to allow them to maintain disciple and good order, in turn allowing them to teach all the students. It is not about anyone being denied the right to speak Spanish outside the school.

    If this is a problem to the parents and the students, I urge them to immediately return to their native land rather than cause difficulties here for the school and the other students.

    And speaking of "SENTIMENT."

    I find it interesting that you attack the school, and do not condemn the "bully(ing) of other children or insult(ing) teachers...."

    Parent

    native language (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Jen M on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 04:09:19 PM EST
    like people from puerto rico? California? Arizona? New Mexico? Texas? States that have Spanish populations dating back 400 years?

    Parent
    He Is Afraid (none / 0) (#60)
    by squeaky on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 05:59:38 PM EST
    That between the Muslims and the Mexicans, his version of Western Civilization (white rule) will be lost. All the rest of his rant is window dressing.

    Parent
    Another person who doesn't read (none / 0) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 08:21:52 AM EST
    , and yes, being 'tossed out' of a school where it was chosen for the academics is punishing the kids.

    Did you miss?

    The Catholic Diocese of Wichita says the school enacted the policy to deal with Spanish-speaking students who were using their native language to bully other children or insult teachers and administrators without their knowledge.

    And how do you know how long my family has been here? You don't.

    And how do you know how long the children in question families have been here? You don't.

    And how do you know how long your NA ancestors were here? You don't.

    There's a book called "The Contested Plains" you should read. It shows in some details how the various tribe moved from place to place, first one tribe pushing out another, and then the next replacing them. I urge you to read it. Can't remember the author(s) but it was published by the University of Kansas press.

    Countries are about boundaries and cultures. When you no longer defend both you will lose both. That may work for you, it doesn't for me because I believe that our country is the greatest on God's green earth, and that unlimited immigration is both a threat to immediate security via terrorists, and to our culture because the new arrivals are too many too fast.

    Simpler. If I go to your house I will follow your rules. I expect the same from you.

    Parent

    Nowonmai... (none / 0) (#51)
    by desertswine on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 01:01:25 PM EST
    Perhaps you would be interested to read "Children Left Behind: The Dark Legacy of Indian Mission Boarding Schools" by Tim Giago, who spent his childhood in one of these schools.

    ...examines the unholy alliance between church and state that tried to destroy the culture and spirituality of generations of Indian children.


    Parent
    Paranoia (none / 0) (#4)
    by jnickens on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 09:59:31 PM EST
    I shop at a predominately Hispanic grocery store, and I just know they're all talking about me.

    Teaching Kids Spanish (none / 0) (#5)
    by joebear9 on Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 10:01:22 PM EST
    US educators ought to start teaching a workable knowledge of Spanish to our kids at an early age. While we may bully poor immigrants into speaking our language; Latin America won't and we are doing more business with them.

    Latin used to be a required course in High School,public school according to my Mom who graduated in 1948.

    Joebear9 (1.00 / 1) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 09:32:45 AM EST
    Latin is the root language for all the so-called "Romance Languages" and many English words can be traced back to it as well.

    I would love to see it brought back as a requirement. The problem is, where will you find the  teachers to teach the course??

    Spanish should be taught starting in grade two, followed by a required second foreign language with a choice of between say, French, German or Chinese starting grade nine.

    But it is not going to happen as long as the public school system is more about "rights" than "responsibilities" and teachers being "friends" rather than "examples."

    As to "bullying...." Huh?? They are being taught a language that will allow them to be effective in the country they live in.

    Parent

    they should have finessed it... (none / 0) (#10)
    by frusorter on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 12:20:05 AM EST
    Schools have the right to regulate, to some degree,
    the relations of students and teachers. If it is not
    appropriate for curses and maledictions to be
    delivered in English, why should it be appropriate
    in Spanish?

    That said, it is rather heavy-handed to eliminate an
    entire language in school just because some small
    small percentage of its speakers use it inappropriately.

    Some middle ground should have been taken. Like, it's
    inappropriate to speak to a person in a language
    they don't understand, let alone curse at them.

    Sine it is a (none / 0) (#15)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 11:16:01 AM EST
    Catholic school, then I guess if the kids and the parents don't like it they can go to public school.  

    well jen m, let me just burst your bubble, (none / 0) (#22)
    by cpinva on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 12:18:52 AM EST
    and those of the "native americans" here as well, everyone in this country is an immigrant. some earlier, some later, but there were no actual indiginous peoples in either north or south america, they all came from elsewhere.

    i am a native american also, being born and bred here. so i have every right to proclaim myself so, as much as anyone else. my tribe was originally from wales/ireland, spoke gaelic, built big ships and learned how to cross the open ocean.

    all that said, so what? it has zero to do with the issue at hand: a private school establishing rules for its students to follow.

    if the students and their parents don't like the rules, they are free to leave and go to another school.

    i submit the ACLU won't enter this fray, for that exact reason.

    because it is smart (none / 0) (#23)
    by Jen M on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 06:58:02 AM EST
    for a private school to make rules that upset enough parents to go from 243 students to 141.

    Parent
    Your choice is to do the wrong thing because (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 08:35:53 AM EST
    of money??

    What is the difference between you and those who invaded Iraq over oil??

    Parent

    uh... (none / 0) (#55)
    by Jen M on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 04:11:59 PM EST
    What kind of school did YOU go to?

    Parent
    and your point would be? (none / 0) (#29)
    by cpinva on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 08:37:40 AM EST
    again, so what? if they, as a private institution, choose this course, that's entirely their right. as for logic, when you get some, and can actually stay on point, do let the rest of us know.

    now, as to whether or not it's a smart move by the school, that's an entire other issue. one could also argue that the school itself is actually semi-public, benefiting from its tax exempt status. that's possibly a position the ACLU could take, but i seriously doubt it.

    actually, what's more likely to happen is that, lacking sufficient support in the community, the local diocese will just close the school, depriving everyone of its educational opportunities.

    as for latin, i doubt it's going to make a comeback anytime soon. it isn't the language of south & latin america, spanish and portugese are. to be even more brutal, the international language of business and science is..............english. it's neither right or wrong, it just is. perhaps that will change over time, or not.

    Parent

    What if a Hispanic group (none / 0) (#24)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 07:16:00 AM EST
      established a private school dedicated to preserving culture and language and required all students to speak only Spanish at school(except, of course,  in English or other language classes for those of you who are terminally dense).

      Would we be hearing this purported outrage over requiring students for whom Spanish is not the primary language being repressed and robbed of their identities? Or, would people just conclude that Anglo parents should send their children to a different school if they don't like the requirement and that it is childish for them to claim their personal preferences should be allowed to restrict the freedom of a private institution to operate as it sees fit?

     

    there already are (none / 0) (#25)
    by Jen M on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 07:37:23 AM EST
    immersion schools. They have existed for at least 20 years. Welcome back to the USA. Been away long?

    Yes, banning the use of other languages is THE BEST WAY to encourage students to take them.  

    I know, lets ban the books to make the kids read them. Then ask for a book report.

    Lets ban the doing of homework then assign it and fail anyone who doesn't turn it in.

    Lets ban music then have a band!

    Yes, in fact I was wrong. Banning something DEFINITELY sends a message that it is a GOOD thing.

    I was being SO dense.

    I guess leading by example is something you aren't awary of.

    If this by you guys is what you quaintly refer to as "logic" I will maintain my non logic, thank you.


    Parent

    Non-logic?? You can have it, (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 08:44:09 AM EST
    There is one thing you keep on forgetting.

    The bedrock of teaching anything to anyone is to have their attention.

    A disruptive environment is the single biggest problem facing the public school system. This school is wise to nip it in the bud.

    BTW - You do no child a favor when you teach "rights" but not "responsibility." The world won't care about their egos, or their "rights." Workplace bullies are fired.

    Parent

    uh huh (none / 0) (#58)
    by Jen M on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 04:29:16 PM EST
    There are never any disruptions in schools where they don't have bilinguals. Ever.

    Uh huh.

    Workplace bullies are fired.  Which is what the administrators of this school are.

    Parent

    do you relaize how foolish that post is? (none / 0) (#34)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:02:46 AM EST
    "immersion schools ... have existed for at least 20 years. Welcome back to the USA. Been away long?"

      And, that has exactly nothing to do with any issue related to this post.

    Yes, banning the use of other languages is THE BEST WAY to encourage students to take them.  

      How does prohibiting Spanish speaking people from speaking Spanish in school affect either their likelihood of taking other language courses (which are of course the ones they need more as they already speak Spanish) or even Spanish classes or the likelihood of non-Spanish speaking people from taking Spanish?

    "I know, lets ban the books to make the kids read them. Then ask for a book report."

      Wouldn't this be more similar to telling childrten they must only work on school assigned reading at school and not to "banning books." I might disagree with telling kids not to read for pleasure during free time but I wouldn't equateit with banning books-- unless I thought hysterically inapt analogies helped my argument-- but they don't.

    "Lets ban the doing of homework then assign it and fail anyone who doesn't turn it in."

      No comment necessary.


    "Lets ban music then have a band!"

      Oh, that makes great sense. As does the "logical" conclusion inferred therefrom that any school with a band should not limit  playing or listening to music by students during school. "Hey, we've got a band so lets have a cacophony in the hallways."

    "Yes, in fact I was wrong. Banning something DEFINITELY sends a message that it is a GOOD thing."

      The first sentence nailed it but you still don't seem to get WHY you were wrong.

    "I was being SO dense."

    No doubt.

    "I guess leading by example is something you aren't awary of.

    If this by you guys is what you quaintly refer to as "logic" I will maintain my non logic, thank you."

      Which is your right as a private actor making the choices you believe, rightly or wrongly, are best for you.


    Parent

    uh.. what?? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Jen M on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 04:25:22 PM EST
    YOU brought up immersion schools:

    What if a Hispanic group (none / 0) (#24)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 07:16:00 AM EST
      established a private school dedicated to preserving culture and language and required all students to speak only Spanish at school(except, of course,  in English or other language classes for those of you who are terminally dense).

    Uh... DUH, HELLO
     

    How does prohibiting Spanish speaking people from speaking Spanish in school affect either their likelihood of taking other language courses

    as the the other examples of similar actions:  DUH

    So, your logic tells you that banning something encourages the students to study it in class. This is your logic? Do you honestly think that way????

    Cause, if you do.  Well. I'm sorry. I didn't know.  I will use small words from now on.


    Parent

    By all means.... (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 08:46:39 AM EST
    the school has the right to ban spanish speaking.  That being said, it's another zero tolerance policy that contains zero common sense.  Maybe I could understand a no spanish rule during class time (except for spanish class of course), but in the hallways, lunchroom, schoolyard?  That's madness to me...authoritarian madness.

    I guess the spanish speaking kids who stay enrolled will have to whisper in stairwells and dark corners when they wanna express themselves en espanol.  

    Madness? (none / 0) (#35)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:09:46 AM EST
    No, it's common sense. If Spanish speaking is causing a disruption--even if it's in the hallways, or in the lunchroom, or in the schoolyard--it is only common sense to ban Spanish in those places.

    You say "authoritarian" like that automatically makes your case. It doesn't. Authoritarian measures are necessary or unnecessary depending on the circumstances. You have yet to tell us why authoritarian response to school disruption is inappropriate.

    Parent

    When an english speaker... (none / 0) (#37)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:25:26 AM EST
    causes a disruption, we don't ban the use of the english language, we punish the disruption.

    It would take the faculty all of ten minutes to come up with a list of spanish curse words that are inappropriate on school grounds, just like we have a list of english words that are inappropriate.

    I have no problem with disciplining kids who say punta, carajo, etc....banning a whole freakin' language from school grounds is not conducive to a learning enviroment, imo.  Sounds to me like the school is being lazy...they can't be bothered to learn Spanish curse words.

    I cannot understand how the spanish language causes a disruption...curse words yes, a language no.

    Parent

    Curse words? (none / 0) (#39)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:39:41 AM EST
    Where do you get the idea that curse words are the problem? That's not what it sounds like from the article.

    Parent
    From the article.... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:46:49 AM EST
    enacted the policy to deal with Spanish-speaking students who were using their native language to bully other children or insult teachers and administrators without their knowledge.

    I took bullying and insulting to mean spanish speakers were cussing out other students or teachers in spanish.  When somebody does it english we don't ban the language.

    Rather than ban a language in an institution of learning, can't the faculty learn to identify a few spanish curse words?  It shouldn't be too difficult for supposedly educated educators.  My spanish is pretty lousy, but I know when I'm being cussed out.  And I'm a college drop-out:)


    Parent

    Minimizing (none / 0) (#44)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 11:04:58 AM EST
    You seem to be minimizing the problem so as to bolster your argument. "Bullying" connotes more than mere namecalling, at least it does to me. Unfortunately, we are hindered by the fact that we know little more than what was in one news report.

    Let me put it like this. Let's assume for a minute that you're right and the school is just trying to get the Spanish-speaking students to stop cursing at other students and teachers. I agree that a policy well short of an outright ban on the Spanish language would be adequate and appropriate.

    On the other hand, now assume that something more than Spanish curse-words are the problem. Assume that a wider disruption is being facilitated by some students' use of Spanish. Let's also assume that the school administration isn't comprised entirely of idiots and that they've tried to correct the problem some other way before going for an outright ban on Spanish. Is the ban more appropriate now?

    Our difficulty comes from the fact that we're just hearing about this now, while the school has likely been dealing with it for some time. It is a mistake to assume that the school administrators woke up one day and said, "Y'know, today I feel like grossly overreacting to some namecalling in Spanish."

    Parent

    no shortage of idiots (or knuckelheads) (none / 0) (#45)
    by Peaches on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 11:20:02 AM EST
    in the world

    Let's also assume that the school administration isn't comprised entirely of idiots and that they've tried to correct the problem some other way before going for an outright ban on Spanish.

    Gabe, you no better. What seems like a reasonable assumption does not necessarily make it true. We all often assume that some groups or institutions are entirely comprised of idiots. Or, at least their policies make them appear to be. I am sure you know of many examples.

    "Y'know, today I feel like grossly overreacting to some namecalling in Spanish."

    As dumb as this sounds, it might very well be the best explanation for the policy that we have at this time. This would not be the first time someone instituted an authoritarian response to a minor problem. It has happened many times in our history.

    Its a private school, they can grossly overreact if they want. It is their choice (possibly even just one person's choice) and the people making this decision might very well be idiots. I know of a group that decided we should go to war in Iraq...

    Thats another story.

    Parent

    I can't fathom... (none / 0) (#46)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 11:51:37 AM EST
    a disruption caused by spoken words that could justify such a ban...can you drum up a hypothetical?  I'm at a loss.

    Bullying using words can only be described as name calling/cussing out.  Physical bullying knows no language...unless there is a difference between a spanish beat-down and an english beat-down I'm not aware of.

    Parent

    they already know (none / 0) (#56)
    by Jen M on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 04:14:57 PM EST
    the curse words. So do the kids who are limited to English only.  

    Parent
    kdog (none / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 11:57:39 AM EST
    The Catholic Diocese of Wichita says [St. Anne Catholic School] enacted the policy to deal with Spanish-speaking students who were using their native language to bully other children or insult teachers and administrators without their knowledge.

    It is called disciple.

    Parent

    I'm not aware of a school... (none / 0) (#48)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 12:09:19 PM EST
    that allows bullying.  When an english speaking bully is caught bullying, we don't ban the english language.  I can't explain it any simpler than that.  Punish bullying, not the use of a beautiful language.

    Parent
    Maybe this real life example... (none / 0) (#49)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 12:19:10 PM EST
    will set the light bulb off.

    When I was a catholic high school boy, in the heat of the moment I told one of the Sisters to stop breaking my balls about wearing my hat in the hallway.  I received detention, which was appropriate as I was in the wrong.  The use of American slang was not banned in the school.

    Parent

    But, (none / 0) (#50)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 12:25:56 PM EST
      would it be wrong, offensive and a discriminatory attempt to rob you of your identity if your private school had adopted a rule requiring formal English at school in and out of class?

      What if the school didn't ban all slang but only slang with connotations of racial, ethnic, etc. prejudice? What if someone was to say that using certain prohibited words were part of their cultural heritage and they considered them beautiful?

    Parent

    I think it would be.... (none / 0) (#53)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 01:16:37 PM EST
    wrong to ban all slang, and definitely a huge over-reaction. Not necessarily offensive or discriminatory...just stupid.

    There were rules against dirty/offensive language.  I stated above I'd have no problem with the school banning dirty spanish words along with dirty english ones.  It's banning a whole language I have a problem with.

    Parent

    Well, if YOU (none / 0) (#32)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 09:20:21 AM EST
     think it is authoritarian madness or another parent just thinks it would be better for her child to go to school where Spanish can be spoken in the hallways, by all means act on those personal beliefs and send the kid elesewhere. I'm sure many people (including many former students) have other various problems with parohical schools which cause them not to send their children to one.

      However, it would be  equally "authoritarian madness" for private institutions to be required to adhere to some  particular conception of political correctness other than the one those institutions choose to follow.

    I clearly stated.... (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 09:30:50 AM EST
    the school is well within their rights.  As am I in criticizing their zero-tolerance, authoritarian policy.  

    I wonder if the kids are allowed to say "San Francisco" in geography.  And I hope the lunchroom doesn't serve tacos, unless they call them "freedom wraps" now.

    Parent

    There is nothing (none / 0) (#36)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:13:12 AM EST
     in the article suggesting it is a "zero tolerance" policy. Lots of schools ban or limit things without resorting to "zero tolerance policies" which mean sanctions (often very severe) must always be mechanically applied to any transgression.

      I went to  schools which "banned"  fighting, skipping class,  and  many other things  but they didn't expel anyone who did them.

    Parent

    Not zero-tolerance... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:28:03 AM EST
    meaning anybody who speaks spanish gets expelled, zero-tolerance meaning this school has zero tolerance for spanish.  

    Banning a whole language for the use of curse words in that language makes sense to you?

    Parent

    I'm not saying I agree or disagree (none / 0) (#40)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:43:30 AM EST
      with the policy. I have the disadvantage (shared I  believe by everyone writing here) of not having very many of the facts regarding either the nature,  scope and intensity  of the problems the policy is intended to alleviate or the particulars of how the policy is to be implemented and enforced.

      I'm just saying that even if I were to find I disagree with the policy of a particular private school I would not suggest there is something wrong with a private school setting rules it believes are proper. Those who don't like any rules at a private school should simply send their kids elsewhere and not claim their values and preferences should be reason enough for the school to change. don't even get me started on implications the school should be compelled to change by govvernment.

    I'm dead-set against govt. intervention.... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:53:55 AM EST
    and we are all speculating, to be sure.

    You have to see the irony though in an institution of learning banning the use of a foreign language.  But it is their right.

    Parent

    What am I thinking.... (5.00 / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 10:59:25 AM EST
    it's a catholic school, they teach that virgins can have babies.  I'm expecting way too much from them in the common sense dept:)

    Parent
    it is precisely the non-classroom environment, ie, the lunch room, playground, etc., where the majority of real learning of that 2nd language occurs.

    I felt like I learned more Spanish in my first week of traveling in South America from just getting getting through the day than I did in 3 years of high-school Spanish classes.

    Second, bullying cannot be specified only as cursing or whatever.

    Coupla 3rd graders make some quick comments in Spanish and get a good laugh out of them, and those comments are obviously at the expense of or directed at one of their non-Spanish speaking classmates, yeah, that's a form of bullying.

    A nun tells some kids not to do something on the playground and a group speaks disrespectfully of her in Vietnamese so that she can't understand what they're saying, yeah, that's a form of insulting.

    I'll go further to say that if you speak in a language about another child/teacher, even if what you're saying is the nicest thing in the world, but that person doesn't speak the language you're using and therefor you have purposely excluded that person from understanding the comments that you just made about him, that's just plain rude, unkind and discourteous.

    And if you don't like being taught not to be those things - at a private school that you chose of your own free will to attend/send your kids - then feel free to find another school.

    That is the solution.... (none / 0) (#61)
    by kdog on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 08:59:05 AM EST
    if you don't like the "when in doubt, ban it" philosophy...don't send your kids to school there.  

    I agree it is rude to speak to someone in a language they do not understand, especially if you speak a common language.  Wouldn't it be better to teach the kids about respect and courtesy instead of copping out and banning the use of an entire language? Isn't banning a language also unkind and disrespectful?

    Parent

    Well, I wish we could just teach kids - (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 01:26:20 PM EST
    or adults for that matter - to be kind and respectful, but society has determined that in addition to merely teaching people not to do certain things, society also has to (rudely and disrespectfully, if you like) make rules that ban certain things as well.

    I'm pretty sure that line of reasoning, inherent in every human society, is one that you have come to feel is a major crock...

    Parent

    Ban things like murder.... (none / 0) (#63)
    by kdog on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 01:39:17 PM EST
    of course I don't think that's a crock.

    Banning saying "Buenos Dias"...big time crock, you bet.

    Maybe over-reacting is inherent in every human society...even Dutch society(banning mushrooms).

    Parent

    Well, the ban covers (none / 0) (#64)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 02:16:36 PM EST
    "Buenas Dias" as well as "pinche cabron" as well as the innumerable other comments that bully or insult.

    You and I abide by certain rules banning cursing and insulting others in order to stay a part of TL's little "society."

    Do you suppose the school attempted to teach before instituting the ban, or just went straight to the ban?

    Parent

    It wouldn't surprise me to learn.... (none / 0) (#65)
    by kdog on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 02:27:25 PM EST
    they went straight for the ban...it's the easiest, least imaginative "solution".  Very popular in a school administration setting.

    Like when one kid gets caught eating crayons in kindergarten, and crayons are banned from the classroom.  The crayon eating problem is tecnically solved, but at what price?

    I've been asking why the school just didn't ban "pinche cabron", as well as they have surely banned "go f*ck yourself".  My only guesses are laziness or anti-hispanic sentiment.

    laziness or anti-hispanic sentiment (none / 0) (#66)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 02:40:50 PM EST
    Maybe, or maybe they don't speak Spanish (or Vietnamese) well enough to conclusively know when the Spanish or Vietnamese speakers are cursing, bullying, or insulting others.

    Which I think is the whole point.

    Parent

    God forbid.... (none / 0) (#67)
    by kdog on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 02:48:12 PM EST
    the faculty/clergy learn some spanish and vietnamese to better serve their flock.  I know almost every parish by me offers mass in spanish to better serve the flock.  Or better fill the collection plates, depending on how cynical you are:)

    Parent
    I think the level of learning required (none / 0) (#68)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 03:02:26 PM EST
    in a 2nd language in order to know whether, or specifically how, someone's cursing, bullying or insulting someone else in that language is a lot more than merely "some" Spanish or Vietnamese, but I see your point.

    fwiw, the (few) non-English services I've been to were led by clergy for whom that non-English language was their native tongue, not a learned 2nd or 3rd or whatever language...

    Parent

    Points taken... (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 03:09:25 PM EST
    as always, I appreciate the food for thought.

    I think we've beaten this one to death.

    Parent

    Yep, (none / 0) (#70)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 03:16:56 PM EST
    I'm much more interested in watching BTD implode on the Obama/McClurkin thread...

    Parent
    I don't find it (none / 0) (#71)
    by Peaches on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 04:40:47 PM EST
    interesting, in the least, anymore. I think Kdog nailed it with the Bizarro O'Reilly reference.

    Some people tune in to O'Reilly to watch the fireworks, too and the rationalizations and all that. Like arguing with Jim, it just ain't worth it. There is only black and whites and right and wrongs. I have better things to do with my time.

    Fair enough. (none / 0) (#72)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Oct 23, 2007 at 04:53:21 PM EST
    Time for me to go home and see if the Santa Anas have messed up my vineyard any more.

    Until manana, then.

    Parent