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On S-CHIP: Send Him The Same Bill

After President Bush vetoed S-CHIP, White House spokeperson Dana Perino said:

"They made their political point, and what the president said is, 'Look, send me the bill, I will veto it, and then we will get about the business of trying to find some common ground and reach an agreement on a way forward,'" Perino said.

My suggestion to the Democratic leaders of Congress is send him the same bill. The policy and politics on this issue, as I believe they are on the Iraq issue, all point to this as being the best move. A Democracy Corps poll supports my view:

As President Bush vetoed the bipartisan S-CHIP bill that would have dramatically expanded children's health insurance, a memo by Democracy Corps and Greenberg Quinlan Rosner shows health care emerging as a top economic concern and voters rejecting the President’s veto by almost a two-to-one margin, preferring the expansion of S-CHIP.

< Poll: Hillary's Lead Widens Over Obama and Others | On Iraq: Is Steny Hoyer The Problem? >
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    The chimp... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by desertswine on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:20:18 PM EST
    stands on his priciples that money is more important than... well, anything... including the health of children.

    Money trumps peace... and kid's health too.

    Bush = Buffoon

    Unquestionably (none / 0) (#4)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:35:07 PM EST
    the least able and most questionable president ever.

    Healthcare for kids is bad policy because it interferes with turning the US from a genuine democracy to a full on debt peonage society.

    Gov't of, by, and for the people is fine, it had just better not make a single incursion on the market, that'd be deeply immoral.

    Parent

    my guess, (1.00 / 0) (#5)
    by HeadScratcher on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:41:46 PM EST
    is that you don't mind paying for something to people who can already afford it?

    Next time you're in line at the grocery store, pay for the groceries of the family behind you. After all, you'd be helping kids eat. Would you rather them starve? I can't believe you'd be so heartless to let children starve so you wouldn't pay for something. And then when they get into their car and drive to their home or apartment in a comfortable neighborhood, then you can pat yourself on the back for helping people who don't need help...

    I'd be happier if the taxes were being spent more on the POOR and NEEDY than those who can afford and simply choose to lead risky lives.

    BTW, I work with poor and lower middle class everyday and I can tell you that the choices people make with their lives will sometimes make you, well, scatch your head.

    Parent

    You cannot be serious (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 01:35:16 PM EST
    The Bush Administration is spending $720 million a day, over $400 million of that as debt being passed on to the next generation(s), and health care for children costing a merest fraction of that is just too much?

    Talk about skewed priorities.

    Afford it? Have you done any research into this at all? Do you know what it costs to insure a family of four, or anyone with a pre-existing condition? According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, insurance premiums rose 87% between 2000 and 2006, or 4x faster than wages. Link to KFF Study, see esp. page 11Link to Congressional Budget Office's report

    "Helping people who don't need help": that's not what S-CHIP does. It leaves me scratching my head when ideology and knee jerk philosophizing make people say things that are simply unsupported by the facts.

    Parent

    Are you sure he wasn't talking about (none / 0) (#11)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 01:45:07 PM EST
    "Helping people who don't need help": that's not what S-CHIP does.
    the expansion of S-CHIP to parents who can afford health insurance?

    Parent
    Insurance (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 02:10:57 PM EST
    costs are rising much faster than wages, pricing increasing numbers of people, hard-working but struggling, out of insurance. I object to depictions of a whole group on the basis of an ideological anecdote.

    Imagine the child in HS's anecdote above is sick and also uninsured, through no fault of the child's own it seems it must be said. That child ends up in emergency rooms, city clinics, or other service providers in much worse shape and far greater cost to the public.

    Parent

    Point taken (none / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 02:22:40 PM EST
    but the proposal does expand the program to families outside it's original, laudable, purpose of helping families who couldn't afford insurance, to families who are wealthy enough to afford it themselves but choose to let others pay for it for them.

    Parent
    That doesn't bother me, assuming the (5.00 / 0) (#15)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 02:36:01 PM EST
    benefit is limited to minors.  They shouldn't suffer for their parents lack of foresight or gambling instincts.  Anyhow, all tax payers ultimately pay if they aren't insured.  

    Parent
    My wife and I were uninsured for years (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 03:06:54 PM EST
    as was most of our social circle.

    We got health care when we needed it and paid for it ourselves.

    For the record, lack of health insurance does not equal lack do health care nor taxpayers paying for the uninsured's health care.

    Parent

    I'm thinking catastrophic events, such (5.00 / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 03:24:15 PM EST
    as paraplegia or brain injury (m/c accidents; m/v accidents, etc.)  Assume you didn't have kids.

    Parent
    Right on (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 03:37:08 PM EST
    I have no objection to a catastrophic safety net but that's a different conversation than S-CHIP.

    When uninsured I remember paying the ER $200+ because my wife had the flu so bad she thought she was dying. For that $200 the doc gave us an Rx for aspirin.

    An uninsured buddy had a burst appendix, ER bill came to over $5K. They asked him how much he could afford to pay/month, he said $10. They accepted that.

    Another uninsured friend started hemorrhaging from an ectopic pregnancy. That ER bill was over $6K, if I remember correctly, and she made (maybe still makes) small monthly payments for years.

    When my wife and I decided to have kids we also decided to get higher-paying jobs through which we could better afford health insurance.

    Amazing what you can do when you set your mind to it.

    Parent

    Or, put another way, (none / 0) (#22)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 03:38:44 PM EST
    amazing what you can do when you choose to do it.

    Parent
    S-CHIP (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by tnthorpe on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 02:42:26 PM EST
    is run by states, so that South Dakota sets its limit at 140% of the Federal Poverty Level and New Jersey at 350%. Insurance affordability isn't as clear a matter as it seems, neither is eligibility. The CBO estimates that for every hundred new S-CHIP members, 20-25% will be transfers from the private insurance sector. Are these people "choosing" to let others pay for them? I don't think that characterizes the nature of what they're doing very well. When confronted with high costs of housing, transportation, education, and insurance many families are simply unable to cope. S-CHIP is rightly directed at people who are having a very hard time making ends meet and it helps them protect their children. I can't see anything objectionable in that.


    Parent
    Let's get it on!!! (1.00 / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 03:03:26 PM EST
    How about NHC for ALL children under age of 19??

    We can use a national sales tax to pay for it. And,of course, we will exempt basic necessities such as unprepared food, utilities (cellphone service and anything but basic cable/satellite excluded), soap, washing detergent, tooth paste, etc.... to make it fair. We will charge a higher tax for restaurant food, and all new automobiles above, say, $30,000 sticker price..

    Parent

    The accountants' lobby would love that (5.00 / 0) (#23)
    by roy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 03:47:22 PM EST
    Does fruit count as prepared if it's clean enough to eat?  If I can get cuts of uncooked meat without tax, how about chunks of raw fish cut into sashimi-size pieces?  Does parsley count as food if I use it as garnish?  How about pumpkins used to make jack-o-lanterns?  Is smoked meat prepared, or merely preserved?  Is deodorant soap (top o' the mornin' to ye) soap?

    Every single product up for sale will be subject to a whole new category of, er, categorization.  The beurocracy necessary to beurocrate everything will probably cost more than the taxes will bring in.  We'll have to raise taxes on some categories to pay for figuring out the taxes on the old categories.  It'll spiral until everybody in the country is a tax-coder except for one guy who we're all following around the grocery store sticking bar codes on items as he picks them up and who can't make up his mind between ketchup (tax code A9QP7O) and catsup (A9QP70).

    Not to mention giving unscrupulous businesses a new system to game, wooing tax coders to assign their competitors to "luxury" status while assigning their own goods as exempt necessities.  Well, not to not mention it, but to mention it in some detail, then again pointless tangent.

    If I use my exempt prescription drugs recreationally, will I be charged with tax evasion?  Will calculators be exempt, because they'll be necessary to keep track of the combinations of local and national taxes while shopping?


    Parent

    picky picky picky ;-) (1.00 / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 05:28:05 PM EST
    Yes, it has its disadvantages, but not nearly was bad as you make out.

    Plus, it gets everyone. The illegal aliens, the dope dealers, the Ebay merchants...everybody gets to contribute...

    Of course if you still insist that it is too complicated, I'd settled for 7% on everything...

    Parent

    Well, that's the difference then. (none / 0) (#19)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 03:14:20 PM EST
    The 20-25% who previously chose to buy health insurance and who will now choose to avail themselves of "free" gvt funded health insurance are not "choosing" in your book. I don't agree. So be it.

    Parent
    btw, the CBO actually estimates over 33% (none / 0) (#25)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 04:51:41 PM EST
    of those choosing to afford insurance now will switch to having the rest of the US pay for it for them.
    The Congressional Budget Office estimates that about 3.8 million of those uninsured children would get government coverage under the bill. It also estimates that about 2 million children now covered by private insurance would switch to SCHIP.
    2/(3.8 + 2) = 34%, not 20-25% as yous said. Just for the record.

    Parent
    Is that so bad? (5.00 / 0) (#30)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 06:28:41 PM EST
    So the insurance companies have 2 million less people to rip off....boo-hoo for the insurance companies.

    Parent
    I've done that.... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 05:00:34 PM EST
    payed for a family's groceries.  I see the same family at Pathmark all the time, they are always watching the total and saying "take this off, take that off" to afford the bill.  It always makes me sad to see the kids embarassment...having been there myself as a kid when mom couldn't afford the bill, watching the steak go back in the freezer.

    Not too long ago I hit a number and felt like doing something feel-good...so when I saw them that week I payed their grocery check.  It felt really good...and I didn't even care if the mother was lazy or liked to drink or whatever.  It wasn't about the mother, it was about me and those kids.

    The same for health care...it's about us, all of us.  How we want the govt. to spend our money.  You wanna pay for health care for children of lousy and/or struggling parents, or another gross of missiles for Israel or Egypt?  Ya know what I'm choosing.

    Assuming, of course, that it is impossible at this point to abolish the income tax and shrink the govt. in half...which would be my preference.  They are taking our money either way...how do you want it spent?

    Parent

    Ignoring the fact that there is no support (none / 0) (#27)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 05:22:07 PM EST
    for the contention that "struggling" accurately describes those who'll be covered by the S-CHIP extension proposal, and the difficulty with actually defining the term itself, if I was a cig smoker and don't want my money taken from me to pay for this extension - but I would be forced to, against my will, by the power of the government - why do you support further erosions of my freedoms and liberties?

    Parent
    Which is why I prefer.... (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 06:26:10 PM EST
    the abolish the income tax/shrink govt. option.  Nobody should be forced, by threat of imprisonment, to give their money to anybody.  It's the libertarian in me.  

    But we are forced...so I'd rather S-Chip than missiles. I'm not gonna rail against a program like this and stay mum on weapons for Israel, Egypt, and others.  

    Assuming there is no way to stop the govt. from taking our money, I ask again..how do you want it spent?  For once, I think I'm in the majority on this one.  Most people, I would think, prefer a program to insure children hovering slightly above the poverty line over weapons for foreign govt's...maybe I'm wrong.

    Parent

    You are being disingenuous, (none / 0) (#39)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 12:33:05 PM EST
    and I think you know it when you said:
    to insure children hovering slightly above the poverty line
    From the AP:
    The bill would limit the full federal match to families with incomes less than three times the poverty level
    iow, incomes of up to $0.01 less than 3X times the gvt poverty level would qualify. I don't think that can realistically be portrayed as "hovering slightly above the poverty line."

    C'mon.

    Parent

    That's not the case (none / 0) (#41)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 12:52:47 PM EST
    The states set those limits according to present law. That's why South Dakota and New Jersey have such different limits.

    From a McClatchy newspapers article:

    Are Bush's Points Valid?

        President Bush claims that the bipartisan bill to expand the State Children's Health Insurance Program "would result in taking a program meant to help poor children and turning it into one that covers children in households with incomes up to $83,000 a year."

        That's not true.

        The bill maintains current law. It limits the program to children from families with incomes up to twice the federal poverty level -- now $20,650 for a family of four, for a program limit of $41,300 -- or to 50 percentage points above a state's Medicaid eligibility threshold, which varies state to state.

        States that want to increase eligibility beyond those limits would require approval from Bush's Health and Human Services Department, just as they must win waivers now. The HHS recently denied a request by New York to increase its income threshold to four times the poverty level -- the $82,600 figure that Republican opponents of the bill are using.

        Under current law, nineteen states have won waivers from these income limits. The biggest was granted to New Jersey, which upped its income limit to 350 percent of the federal poverty level, or $72,275 for a family of four in 2007. The expanded SCHIP program retains the waiver option under federal discretion; it doesn't change it.
    -------
    Costs of living vary dramatically, so that flexibility was recognized as a programmatic necessity.

    Parent

    The compromise bill encourages states to enroll children of parents who earn 200 percent of the federal poverty rate ($41,000 for family of four), but allows an expansion up to 300 percent ($62,000).
    I also said nothing critical of the S-CHIP's flexibility.

    Parent
    You C'mon.... (none / 0) (#42)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 01:11:10 PM EST
    Sarc...the federal poverty level has no basis in reality in places like NY, NJ, CA.  It barely has a basis in reality in places like MS and AL.

    The whole point of certain states going above and beyond the federal level of poverty is because the line drawn by the feds is a joke.

    Parent

    Add... (none / 0) (#33)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 06:32:52 PM EST
    In other words, it's all welfare.  Whose welfare should we be concerned with?

    Parent
    Or, as the President himself sd. (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:52:06 PM EST
    this will lead to middle-class entitlement.

    Parent
    The Democracy Corps poll (none / 0) (#2)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:24:01 PM EST
    Now I'm going to read you some pairs of statements. As I read each pair, please tell me whether the FIRST statement or the SECOND statement comes closer to your own views, even if neither is exactly right:
    The Democrat says, we have a chance to
    ensure that all children in the country have
    health care. The Congress is going to pass an
    expansion of the existing children's health care
    program, administered by each state, to insure 3
    million more children in working families. It is
    paid for by increasing the tax on a pack of
    cigarettes.

    President Bush says, he would veto an
    expansion of the S-CHIP program because it
    is a form of socialized medicine that will
    encourage people to drop their private
    insurance and join a government insurance
    plan. That's the wrong approach

    Wouldn't a much less slanted poll be something along the lines of:

    The existing S-CHIP program uses tax dollars to fund a health insurance program for children of families who cannot afford health insurance.

    Would you support, through an increase in the existing taxes on tobacco, an expansion of that plan to include the children of families who can afford health insurance?



    Your question is fine (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:31:43 PM EST
    but I do not see the problem with the Democracy Corps questions either.

    Parent
    Well, I don't see how this (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 01:18:23 PM EST
    The Democrat says, we have a chance to
    ensure that all children in the country have
    health care.
    is germane to the rest of the statement:
    The Congress is going to pass an
    expansion of the existing children's health care
    program, administered by each state, to insure 3
    million more children in working families. It is
    paid for by increasing the tax on a pack of
    cigarettes.
    Polls are funny things, while my sense is that the country is going to eventually end up with a gvt-funded insurance program for all, I don't think the poll results accurately reflect the public.

    For example, another poll, also with an obvious bias, Cover the Uninsured, asks this question:

    16. Now there is also a proposal being considered in Congress to expand SCHIP to cover even more uninsured children. This proposal would expand SCHIP to provide coverage for an additional FOUR million uninsured children for five years at an additional cost of thirty-five billion dollars. Would you favor or oppose Congress voting to expand SCHIP?
    The thing is, the term "uninsured children" had already been defined in a previous question as as:
    Talking some more about the State Children's Health Insurance Program, also known as SCHIP (ESSCHIP) or (insert state designated name). 14. The program was authorized by Congress in 1997 for ten years. Under SCHIP, the federal government provides matching funds to states to provide health care coverage to lower income children in working families whose parents make too much to qualify for Medicaid but make too little to afford private health insurance. In most states, for a child to qualify, a family of four would have an annual household income of forty thousand dollars or less.
    iow, the suggestion is that the expansion would cover more
    lower income children in working families whose parents make too much to qualify for Medicaid but make too little to afford private health insurance
    when in fact the purpose of the expansion is to provide coverage for more children who's parents [supposedly] can afford private health insurance.

    I realize that's not the poll you sourced, and, again, I think this is the direction the country is going, but polls like this example and yours that are clearly leading or slanted are unhelpful, imo.

    Parent

    The above is kinda OT, I guess (none / 0) (#9)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 01:29:34 PM EST
    but I don't understand why you'd suggest sending the same bill? He'll just veto it, and it seems the House won't override the veto.

    Parent
    On NPR this morning, (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 02:15:28 PM EST
    someone suggested putting SCHIP in the bill keeping the entire government running funding-wise.  Then let the President veto.  

    Parent
    Perino and Snow are drive-by clownburger speakers (none / 0) (#7)
    by Ellie on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:54:49 PM EST
    They can only handle a limited menu when answering questions.

    cf Perino's patronizing response (and reverting to smear and deflect) when the question of priorities was raised. (Namely, rejecting SCHIP while asking for another lavish cheque for war -- ntm while the war dogs are panting to start yet another elective war.)

    She sneeringly claimed that the Dems have taxes without sunset on the brain to pay for the war, though fails to explain that the public are paying for it anyway.

    It's days like these that I most miss the comedy stylings, heavily drenched in flop sweat, of Suckah MC Scotty or the quiet robotic menace of Ari "Locutis of Georg" Fleischer. There was an appreciable sense of craft behind their hooey. The Republican Palace isn't even trying here. Perino's really bottom of the barrel talent.

    Dem and media playbook (none / 0) (#24)
    by Slado on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 04:32:00 PM EST
    on this one is simple.

    Igonore what the plan would really do and talk about what it should be doing.

    The main sticky points is this program is classic Washington spending where the main program is padded with all sorts of extras that go way beyond what the original legislation was intended to do.

    Yes this will give kids healthcare.  It also will get lots of the money from Tabbacco (which is really just a tax on the poor) it will apply to "kids" up to 25 years old and apply to "poor famalies" making up to $65K a year.

    Really?

    Basically the bill has too much fluff in it.

    Remove the fluff and Bush will let it through.  He has said as much.  But of course BTD and dems aren't really interested in helping the poor just scoring cheap political points.

    This is what we (conservatives) elected Bush to do.  Cut the spending by not allowing Congress to pad feel good legistlation with government handouts.  It's a shame it took until the 11th hour of his presidency to reign in Washington it's never too late.

    Bravo Bush. Bravo.

    Slado.... (none / 0) (#32)
    by kdog on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 06:31:40 PM EST
    Spending is up under Bush.  He's not about cutting spending, just cutting spending that might actually help people, or take away somebody's profit.

    He is by no measure a fiscal conservative.  You've been had...but don't feel bad, we've been had by our party too.  They're all playing us.

    Parent

    Kdog (1.00 / 0) (#37)
    by Slado on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 09:58:03 AM EST
    That's my point.

    Until the 7th year of his presidency he hasn't been a fiscal conservative but now that he's worried about his legacy he's starting to be one.

    While I wish he wasn't flip flopping on this issue I'll take the flop in year 7 if it means that we will reign in the totally out of control spending that we would get with this democratic congress.

    The only thing he's done well is putting in the tax cuts which have resulted in increased revenue and a great economy.   If he had tightened the spending belt (Medicare Drug Program, pork spending by a republican congress etc...) then it'd be even better.

    But again later is better then never.

    No one can honestly state that this is a good bill.  Instead they use the human sheild of "it's about the children" to cover up the stink that all this extra spending will be wasted on people who don't really need it.

    That's why Harry Reid and Pelosi will have to buckle and give the president a bill that will waste less money instead of more.

    Parent

    I don't think... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 10:09:34 AM EST
    any spending done on health care could be called wasteful.  At least we see a benefit for our buck...healthier kids.  It just doesn't bother me all that much that the parents might be able to tighten the boot straps and buy a plan, maybe at the expense of braces for the kids or better living quarters.  

    The whatever odd billion on new weapons system in the border bill...now that's wasteful.  Where is your fiscal conservative with a veto on that welfare bill?

    Parent

    Breaking: Dems to overide Prez SCHIP veto (none / 0) (#31)
    by Ellie on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 06:29:11 PM EST
    Democrats Begin SCHIP Veto Override Campaign, Kane, Capitol Briefing, WaPo, 10/03/2007

    With a presidential veto of the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) now official, Congressional Democrats have formally embarked on a campaign to find the 15 to 20 votes from House Republicans they will need to override President Bush's veto pen.

    Aides say because the $35 billion expansion of the program originated in the House, that chamber will go first in its attempt to override Bush's third veto ever as president (his veto of the Water Development Act today makes four). That vote is likely to come during the week of Oct. 15, leaving two more weeks for Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) to exert political pressure on any wavering Republicans. The Senate will follow suit, presumably only if the House secures the two-thirds majority of those present -- the voting ratio that is required by the Constitution to beat a presidential veto. The Senate already has enough votes, 67, to defeat Bush's veto, so all the drama is on the House side for this showdown.

    The magic number of votes Pelosi will need is a bit of a moving target at this point, depending on how many lawmakers are present for the vote. There are currently two open seats vacated by a death and a retirement, meaning if all 433 current members voted Democrats need 289 votes to win.

    During the vote on final passage last week, the House voted 265-159 in favor of the legislation, with one "present" vote and eight lawmakers absent. At least two of those eight -- GOP Reps. Jo Ann Davis (Va.) and Barbara Cubin (Wyo.) -- have been ill and have not attended votes in quite a while, making it likely they won't be on hand for the SCHIP override vote. That would lower the override threshold to 287 votes in favor, out of 431 total lawmakers voting. [...]


    an actual case (none / 0) (#34)
    by diogenes on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 07:23:15 PM EST
    New York has liberal rules about S-CHIP and extended family insurance.  Our church had been paying our minister a middle class salary and $20,000 health insurance.  We figured out that he and his wife and kids were eligible for this New York provided insurance (Child and Family Health Plus), so we, with his consent, cancelled the private insurance.
    Who says the government can't help the church? :)

    Can I assume (1.00 / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 07:37:19 AM EST
    when businesses start dropping health insurance for children of families making $80K a year you'll be okay with that?

    This whole thing has become massively unfair. While people living in NJ make $80K a year and get free insurance for their children, sharecroppers in MS making $18K a year are paying for NJ's insurance.

    The only answer is NHC.

    Parent

    Nice (none / 0) (#35)
    by roy on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 07:30:23 PM EST
    Why let friends help, when you can get strangers to do it on penalty of imprisonment?

    Parent
    Exactamundo. (none / 0) (#40)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 12:46:03 PM EST
    But hey, if I have to pay for tanks on penalty of my imprisonment, then FU Jack, I'm gong to make sure you pay for someone else's kid's health insurance - who's parents can well afford to pay for it themselves - on penalty of your imprisonment.

    Nice.

    Parent

    Yep.... (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Thu Oct 04, 2007 at 01:18:27 PM EST
    that sums up position.  

    If I have to pay for weapons to protect the wealth of others, who can well afford to hire Blackwater to defend their own wealth...than hell yeah, I'd like to see some working class kids get some health coverage out of the "grand scam".  At least I can see a benefit in that.  

    Parent