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Obama Is Right To Support Peru Free Trade Pact

One of the biggest ideological fault lines in the Democratic Party is trade. I stand on the pro-free trade side of this issue. I supported and support NAFTA and its extension to Peru.

Among the Dem Presidential candidates, Open Left reports:

Barack Obama supports the pact while John Edwards opposes it. Hillary Clinton has yet to take a position, though she has suggested the nation may need a little "timeout" from new trade agreements pending a review of the effects previous pacts have had on American workers.

I agree with Barack Obama on this issue. More.

The opponents of free trade deals, including folks like, for the first time, to some extent, Paul Krugman, talk a lot about "economic anxiety" but very little in the way of empirical evidence as to how trade deals hurt the US economy or even the US job market. Krugman does note the limits of opposing trade deals as protecting the labor situation:

Realistically, however, labor standards won’t do all that much for American workers. No matter how free third-world workers are to organize, they’re still going to be paid very little, and trade will continue to place pressure on U.S. wages.

So what’s the answer? I don’t think there is one, as long as the discussion is restricted to trade policy: all-out protectionism isn’t acceptable, and labor standards in trade agreements will help only a little.

By all means, let’s have strong labor standards in our pending trade agreements, and let’s approach proposals for new agreements with an appropriate degree of skepticism. But if Democrats really want to help American workers, they’ll have to do it with a pro-labor policy that relies on better tools than trade policy. Universal health care, paid for by taxing the economy’s winners, would be a good place to start.

Anti-NAFTA rallying cries have been fun for some, but have little to do with where the bulk of non-petroleum US imports have come from -- China, Japan, South Korea and India.

In essence, just as anti-immigration fervor reveals the ugly side of Know Nothing populism, blind opposition to free trade does as well.

The difference is that trade protectionism protects American capital much more than American labor.

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    blind support? (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by selise on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:45:51 PM EST
    In essence, just as anti-immigration fervor reveals the ugly side of Know Nothing populism, blind opposition to free trade does as well.

    The difference is that trade protectionism protects American capital much more than American labor.

    1. you're making a common mistake, btd - just because our trade deals suck, doesn't mean that we couldn't have better ones.... we don't have to resort to protectionism unless the trade negotiators refuse to budge on their crappy laws.

    2. you're making a second common mistake in assuming that just because the words "free trade" are in the name or discription of a bill, that must mean the bill is a free trade bill. as stiglitz says, a free trade bill would be 3 pages long - not a couple thousand.

    please read some stiglitz to get a knowledgable, mainstream perspective on these deals. and if you want to go really wild, read dean baker. jeeze.

    ... so what does blind support for so-called free trade reveal?

    I have to agree (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by RedHead on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:01:34 PM EST
    Little Engine That Could has a point:

    "In essence, just as anti-immigration fervor reveals the ugly side of Know Nothing populism, blind opposition to free trade does as well."

    That's the perfect profile of David Sirota - "ugly, know nothing populist."

    I can only ponder how BTD could comfortable befriend someone with such "ugly" views.  

    Parent

    NAFTA CAFTA SCHMAFTA (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:09:22 PM EST
    These so-called deals immiserate hundreds of thousands of small farmers in Mexico already and provide safe haven for predatory capital.
    From the Economic Policy Institute in 2003:
    Since the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) was signed in 1993, the rise in the U.S. trade deficit with Canada and Mexico through 2002 has caused the displacement of production that supported 879,280 U.S. jobs. Most of those lost jobs were high-wage positions in manufacturing industries. The loss of these jobs is just the most visible tip of NAFTA's impact on the U.S. economy. In fact, NAFTA has also contributed to rising income inequality, suppressed real wages for production workers, weakened workers' collective bargaining powers and ability to organize unions, and reduced fringe benefits.

    Nor have Mexican workers seen much progress (from the Carnegie Endowment for Peace):
    Real wages for many Mexicans today are lower than when NAFTA took effect. The stunning setback in wages is mainly attributable to the peso crisis of 1994-1995. However, during the NAFTA period, productivity growth has not translated into wage
    growth, as it did in earlier periods in Mexico. Mexican wages are also diverging from, rather than converging with, U.S. wages.
    ----
    Trade is only as valuable as its benefits are equitably distributed and so called free trade does not do that. At its worst, free trade undermines democracies by subverting their sovereignty, while exacerbating huge disparities in wealth and income. Fair trade deals that protect labor and the environment and have provisions for those who suffer under the huge economic displacements that follow trade agreements would be much preferable to more NAFTA nonsense. The last stage of NAFTA's trade liberalization is about to hit Mexico hard, why not fix that agreement first?

    interesting approach some of you have; (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by cpinva on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:24:39 PM EST
    it's better to make a quick, ill-informed decision, than to step back and review the facts first. i like that redhead and sar. of course, the current administration has done that frequently, over the course of the past 6 years, and we see how well that's gone.

    krugman, and the rest of you, BTD included, seem to have left out some rather compelling aspects of any "free trade" agreement: the costs of compliance with various federal, state and local environmental statutes, that companies in the US have to deal with, that other countries don't necessarily burden their businesses with.

    i am surprised at dr. krugman for ignoring that, the rest of you i'm not. this might explain the difference, between our water, air and land, and that of many of our "third-world" trading partners. yeah, i know our's isn't perfect, but it's a hell of lot better than mexico's or china's. just ask the people living there.

    this costs money, which impacts cost of goods sold, and ultimately the selling price of products and the bottom line. failure to take this into account, while negotiating trade agreements, leaves our manufacturing sector at an additional disadvantage, comparitively.

    look at any listed corp's 10-k, and see what they spend on environmental costs, vs what third-world companies spend. that part of the playing field can be leveled.

    14 years (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:38:34 PM EST
    of NAFTA have been subjected to study by NGOs, Gov't (US, CANADA, MEXICO), and academics. Waiting for yet one more study isn't necessary to discover NAFTA's deleterious effects on small farmers, labor conditions, or the environment.

    Jack Welch, former CEO of GE,  who once famously said that "Ideally you'd have every plant you own on a barge," was well aware that not polluting costs money, whereas polluting is cheap. This sort of predatory capitalism hasn't been at all restrained by NAFTA and I'm pretty sure that Prof. Krugman knows about it. Your posts's framing of laws that disallow companies from making the public's environment toxic as a cost to business is simply bogus. Welch, et al. don't own the environment, do they?

    Parent

    You make good points (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:28:33 PM EST
    In my defense, I was writing a post, not a article or dissertation.

    Parent
    you've not been subjected to one of my reports, (none / 0) (#41)
    by cpinva on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 11:04:17 PM EST
    so you've no idea what a real article or treatise would be. don't get me started on transfer pricing! lol

    Parent
    interesting approach you have; (none / 0) (#32)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 06:32:59 PM EST
    it's better to make a quick, ill-informed decision based on something you think you read into someone else's comment, than to step back and review the actual words and meaning of the comment first. i like that cpin.

    You missed it, and in case anyone else did as well, my entire point was that it's odd that HRC's waiting to review the effects of something who's effects have already been thoroughly studied for years if not decades, and that she will wait to have an opinion until she's sure of what opinion to have.

    I have made no comment on the trade pact itself.

    I will leave it to the economic brain surgeons like you and HRC to untangle that mess.

    Parent

    they have? gee, by what (none / 0) (#40)
    by cpinva on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 11:00:16 PM EST
    You missed it, and in case anyone else did as well, my entire point was that it's odd that HRC's waiting to review the effects of something who's effects have already been thoroughly studied for years if not decades, and that she will wait to have an opinion until she's sure of what opinion to have.

    crystal ball? nafta's only been in place for approx. 10 years, so its long-term effects are only just now starting to be studied. you have some secret info you want to share with the rest of the class, and HRC? i'm sure we'd be glad to hear it, as would she.

    the previous trade agreements didn't lift tarifs on imported goods, they mainly impacted quotas, which is why they had little affect on the economy and labor in this country. nafta was the first to completely eliminate those on trade between us and other countries. that's kind of what made it so special, it was supposed to be a counterpart to the then proposed EU's open borders concept.

    this could explain why HRC wants to study the effects of recent trade bills, before signing on to a new one. it could. whether that's it or not, i don't know. unlike you, i have no crystal ball to guide me.

    your post was quite clear, unless you didn't know what you meant.


    Parent

    You are embarassing yourself. (none / 0) (#43)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:28:18 AM EST
    I know exactly what she meant. A decade of NAFTA and a decade of studies about it. But wait, not so fast, there's just one more study that HRC has to wait for until she can have an opinion.

    You and HRC need to get a grip.

    Parent

    something else... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by selise on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:25:47 PM EST
    Anti-NAFTA rallying cries have been fun for some

    this is just wrong.

    i spent a week of vacation in miami volunteering with the national lawyers guild (as a legal observer) for the ftaa meeting protests in 2003 (and i posted comments here at talkleft about my experience then). it was not fun. i was pepper sprayed and tear gassed, saw kids beaten bloody and police indescriminately firing hundreds of rounds of rubber bullets at people who weren't doing anything wrong.

    btd, i really resent your mocking.

    My sincere apologies (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:27:17 PM EST
    I was out of line.

    Parent
    darn. (5.00 / 3) (#26)
    by selise on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:33:02 PM EST
    just when you get me good and riled up... you go and do something truely fine.

    Parent
    I agree a bit with Krugman (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:55:02 PM EST
    on this:
    But if Democrats really want to help American workers, they'll have to do it with a pro-labor policy that relies on better tools than trade policy. Universal health care, paid for by taxing the economy's winners, would be a good place to start.

    But approving this trade agreement should also have had some tradeoffs.   Universal healthcare is too much to ask for, but certainly something that companies that will benefit from  the agreement should have to do.

    According to NPR, NAFTA included (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 06:37:18 PM EST
    environmental quality conditions but no mechanism to enforce.

    Parent
    I meant (5.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Maryb2004 on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 06:41:18 PM EST
    there should be a tradeoff.  Congress votes for free trade but also votes for something that would help the common good in this country that companies doing business in the US wouldn't necessarily want to pay for or do. (Yeah, I know I have no examples but it's the end of the day and I'm tired.)

    Parent
    Sirota interview with Illinois Rep. Phil Hare (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 11:24:45 PM EST
    gives an inside perspective on the labor-advocate anti side - here.

    Basically, he points out that Bush is anti-worker, and this puts the power to protect against labor abuses solely in his hands. A new Congress is coming in 15 mo., why the rush to pass this? It will have a negative impact on American workers, will make people like his constituents lose their jobs, will alienate the base opposed to it. A free trade deal that doesn't have such deleterious effects could be better worked out under a Dem prez and Congress. R's are going to use it against D's in districts like his.

    Interesting interview, worth a listen.

    Free trade is not free (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Dadler on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 11:50:51 AM EST
    And the entire purpose of it is to make the rich richer while giving as little as possible to those who need it.  Until the entire concept of money is revalued (it should work for us, not the other way around) we will simply be helping a few people while hurting more.  All countries should be as independent as possible, should be able to produce most of their needs for themselves.  After that is reached, then you go out and try to get rich by sending your sh*t halfway around the world.  We have terribly skewed priorities economically -- we worship at the alter of an inanimate object (money) and pray that it walks into people's wallets.

    Crazy.

    Money has no value.  None.  All that gives it value is people's BELIEF that it is worth something.  When people believe money is there to help them and not simply there to be chases like a hamster on a wheel, then things will get better in a major way.

    I'm SHOCKED !! (none / 0) (#1)
    by RedHead on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:07:21 PM EST
    Clinton hasn't taken a position!!!

    Failing to lead ?

    NOooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    I await the denouncement.

    When she votes against it (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:22:26 PM EST
    I will.

    I did not denounce Obama for not voting on K-L did I? At least not until he started to trumpet it as an issue.

    Parent

    Reading is fundamental (none / 0) (#9)
    by RedHead on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:39:06 PM EST
    failing to take a position on Peru trade = failure of leadership

    Singling out a trailing candidates (issue after issue), while giving a pass to the frontrunner = partisanship, not principle.
     

    Parent

    Interestingly (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:57:47 PM EST
    You have stumbled upon the method to my madness.

    I will not point out what.

    Parent

    nobody buys it (none / 0) (#15)
    by RedHead on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:08:25 PM EST
    the "I'm only screaming at them for his/there own good," at it's core, is no different than spousal abuse/parental abuse  - "if you don't do what I say, then you're worthless."

    Sure it works well on too many souls, but nevertheless, it's repugnant, as well as lazy.


    Parent

    Unsurprisingly (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:20:52 PM EST
    You did NOT stumble upon it in that comment.

    Parent
    Heh! (none / 0) (#24)
    by RedHead on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:29:25 PM EST
    Stop copying me! (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:35:10 PM EST
    Oh Gawd! (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by RedHead on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:45:09 PM EST
    Put-downs and abusive-control didn't work, now he's trying charm!

    That's toooo much!!!!!

    Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

    Somebody, where's the exit!!!

    Parent

    a method? (none / 0) (#25)
    by selise on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:30:15 PM EST
    pointing out how wrong obama is by praising him?

    Parent
    Praise and criticism (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:34:43 PM EST
    when appropriate.

    You disagree with me on this issue so obviously we will not agree HERE on whether praise is appropriate.

    But, to lay it out again, it is an ISSUES based approach that understands that frontrunners will say as little as possible on issues so our attention, both in terms of praise and criticism, should focus on non-frontrunners who are much more likely to highlight issues and forward them.

    It explains my support for Chris Dodd.

    It explains why I do not spend much time on Hillary Clinton (and let's be honest, do0 you really need to read someone else bashing Hillary? Is there not a glut on the market for that?)

    And it explains why I will criticize for non-issue oriented criticism of Clinton.

    There, my secret (not really) revealed.

    Parent

    your policy is attack the underdog? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Jgarza on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 06:26:34 PM EST
    are you sure you aren't republican?

    we know you support Dodd to be Hillarys VP.

    lets follow this logic

    Hillary is frontruner, therefore, according to you, she is exempt from having to take a position anything.

    But, to lay it out again, it is an ISSUES based approach that understands that frontrunners will say as little as possible on issues

    The other contenders however according to you, aren't allowed to criticize her on anything else but issues(which to you only means her position on policy).


    And it explains why I will criticize for non-issue oriented criticism of Clinton.

    So they can only criticize Clinton for policy positions, which according to you she is exempt from having to take as front runner.    

    You say you don't support Clinton but if you follow your logic there is no one left but her.  

    But, to lay it out again, it is an ISSUES based approach that understands that frontrunners will say as little as possible

    It is an issues based approached for everyone but Clinton.  I bet if in a month she is number 2 you will have another excuse to exclude her from your "issues based approach"

    Stop making excuses. you are in the cult of Hillary, and you think we should anoint her our supreme leader.

    Parent

    Who water-boarded you?! (none / 0) (#2)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:07:57 PM EST


    in the not to distant future.. (none / 0) (#3)
    by RedHead on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:10:32 PM EST
    ..I imagine Sorta will w/b him.

    Parent
    I calls em like I sees em (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:22:58 PM EST
    When will people get that?

    Parent
    Probably never (none / 0) (#7)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:26:07 PM EST
    You have provided much amusement today for me.

    Parent
    Tony Award Nominee (none / 0) (#10)
    by RedHead on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:45:50 PM EST
    Big round of applause for Broadway's show stopper, BTD!!!!

    And the nominees are:  BTD for "See No Clinton, Hear No Clinton, Say No Clinton"

    (Roll clips)


    Clinton votes for K-L, says "surge is working," refuses to lead on trade and D/L.

    Cricket
    cricket
    cricket



    Parent
    I have to say (none / 0) (#5)
    by andgarden on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:22:45 PM EST
    that it got one of the most interesting roll calls in the House that I can remember.

    Bob Brady and Chaka Fattah, the two Congressmen who represent most of the city of Philadelphia, split on final passage. I can't remember the last time they disagreed on a vote. The difference is that Brady's district is slightly more white and Catholic.

    (Brady took about half of Bob Borski's former Reagan Democrat PA-03 (Northeast Philly) and Senate-aspirant Allyson Schwartz took the other half.)

    I think it all has to do with GOTV machinery: Fattah relies on traditional black community orgs and Brady needs more union manpower.

    I need to look at this more closely.

    Oddly enough (none / 0) (#8)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 04:37:50 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton has yet to take a position, though she has suggested the nation may need a little "timeout" from new trade agreements pending a review of the effects previous pacts have had on American workers.
    Hillary Clinton also has yet to take a position on hitting oneself in the head with a hammer, though she has suggested the nation's noggins may need a little "timeout" from new hammer impacts pending a review of the effects previous impacts have had on American heads.

    I wonder if her "review" will reach its conclusion just about the same time the polling results are in on the issue?


    She prolly (none / 0) (#16)
    by Jgarza on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:09:22 PM EST
    has multi point plan
    she isn't going to show it to you though
    so stop asking her gotcha questions

    Parent
    I'm pro free trade (none / 0) (#14)
    by Jgarza on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:07:37 PM EST
    I do think there can be irresponsible trade deals.
    NAFTA has pluses and minuses but the pluses out weight the minuses.
    I'm not familiar with the Peru trade pact, but I'm going to guess I'd be fine with it.

    NAFTA and the economy was a strong part of the Clinton's legacy.  I hope she doesn't back away from free trade as a path to prosperity.

    please tell me... (none / 0) (#21)
    by selise on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 05:27:15 PM EST
    please tell me what part of nafta you think balances out chapter 11?

    Parent
    As in bankruptcey (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jgarza on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 09:57:09 PM EST
    Look I live in Texas, NAFTA has brought lots of jobs and prosperity to Texas.

    The rust belt would have had hardship, regardless of NAFTA, there economy has not been able to transition  into the modern economy.

    Parent

    huh? (none / 0) (#44)
    by selise on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 06:59:33 AM EST
    your comment had nothing to do with chapter 11 of natfa.

    Parent
    Support (none / 0) (#35)
    by diogenes on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 07:36:44 PM EST
    BTD, please again rank order your support of the democratic candidates.  Simply repeating that you support the longshot Dodd and saying nothing else leaves us to have to infer your position, creating lots of confusion.

    My recollection, maybe from yesterday, is (none / 0) (#36)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 09:45:22 PM EST
    Hillary Clinton is numero quartro.  

    Parent
    P.S. Oculus is poor in Spanish. (none / 0) (#38)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 10:03:50 PM EST
    Quote: (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Thu Nov 08, 2007 at 10:09:40 PM EST
    Right now, Obama is my clear #2 in the race.

    Edwards is 3rd.

    Clinton 4th.



    Parent
    Strike that. Breaking: BTD no longer (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:18:13 PM EST
    has Senator Dodd at the top of his list.  Clinton is still #4.

    Parent
    Free Trade and Immigration (none / 0) (#48)
    by bernarda on Sat Nov 10, 2007 at 07:41:37 AM EST
    Why do these free trade treaties only deal with goods and products and not with free trade in immigration and labor?

    A Peru free trade treaty will be bad for both Peruvians and Americans, except for capital and multi-nationals.

    From the WTO on down, the trade agreements are designed to favor the developed world's corporations which have a built-in advantage.

    New agreements between the European Union and the ACP(Africa, Carribean, Pacific)countries which are supposed to take effect in 2008 will do a lot to destroy those countries economies and deprive those governments of much of their funding: from twenty to eighty percent.

    All these free trade agreements have been one-sided in favor of the rich, ie those who have the power.