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An UnEndorsement

I have been a Chris Dodd supporter for many months now. The reason why was simple - he was leading on the issues I cared most about.

And, too be fair, he still is on many. But I can no longer ignore a very troubling development about the Dodd campaign - it has been much less about issues and more about attacks of late. His nod to bigoted opposition to Eliot Spitzer's drivers licenses for undocumented aliens initiative was, on the issues, easily his lowest moment of the campaign for me.

But more troubling than that for me is his campaign team probably thinks it was one of his best moments - because he got to zing Hillary Clinton. It appears that the Dodd campaign believes that is a winning formula for him. What else could explain this?

Memorandum To: Interested Parties

From: Hari Sevugan,
Communications Director, Chris Dodd for President

Date: November 8, 2007

Re: Impact of Perceptions of "Honesty," "Integrity" on Electabilty

The lack of candor with which Senator Clinton answered many of the questions posed to her at the recent Democratic Presidential Candidates' Debate in Philadelphia has had a significant impact on public perceptions of her "honesty."

A Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll released today shows that only 34% of Americans view Senator Clinton as honest, while a plurality of Americans, 43%, rate Senator Clinton negatively for "honesty." [Wall Street Journal, 11/8/07]

These findings are all the more significant in light of the fact that public polling has repeatedly shown that Americans have said that "honesty" and "integrity" are the top characteristics they are looking for in a president, ahead of specific positions on issues including the war, the economy and other areas of national concern.

. . . Simply put, voters tell us clearly that Senator Clinton is perceived to have least what they say they want most: honesty. As such, these findings pose a significant hurdle for Senator Clinton to overcome in a general election and are telling to the issue of "electability.

Let's consider first of all the wisdom of a candidate who barely registers in the polls citing polls for an "electability" argument. Well, it is plain idiotic. Only a captive of the Beltway could think this is smart.

Second, how is campaigning negatively against Clinton, when you are not even an afterthought as an alternative to her, be a smart campaign move?

Finally, and most importantly, how can you, when you are running an issues based campaign, argue for a poll that says "the top characteristics they are looking for in a president, ahead of specific positions on issues including the war, the economy and other areas of national concern."

Only a Beltway consultant could have come up with that strategy. But it seems clear that Dodd is embracing that Beltway strategy and abandoning the issues based strategy that had garnered my support.

And thus, I am abandoning Senator Dodd. I care about issues. Not horseraces. And of course, if I cared about horseraces, Dodd would not be a top tier choice either.

My search for a candidate begins anew. If I lived in Iowa and had to vote today, my choices NOW would be Obama first, Dodd second, Edwards third, Clinton fourth.

Let's see what happens going forward. Perhaps I will announce support for a candidate. Maybe even Dodd.

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    Poor Dodd (5.00 / 4) (#21)
    by Maryb2004 on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:35:51 PM EST
    The hit to his campaign from your unendorsement will probably be directly proportional to the benefit he got when you endorsed him.

    But at least you no longer have to hide your Obama love.  That must be a relief :)

    IF only we could really, really trust the (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:38:12 PM EST
    polls (as opposed to the pols), we should see a sudden dip from zero to minus zero.

    But what to do about all those posts critical of Obama?

    Parent

    What do we make of them? (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Maryb2004 on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:48:08 PM EST
    Well, some people put the object of their love up on a pedestal and will hear no criticism.   But other people drive the object of their love crazy with criticism in the cause of making them as good "as I know you can be".

    Shall we have a vote on which category A falls into?  

    Parent

    Consider this (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:56:57 PM EST
    I have no object of love but my own issue positions.

    Parent
    uh huh (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Maryb2004 on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:27:40 PM EST
    You've loved Obama since the beginning of the campaign.  It's just tough love.

    Parent
    I thought Geekesque would be (none / 0) (#52)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:29:53 PM EST
    all over this in a heartbeat.  Whaaa?

    Parent
    Heh (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:31:24 PM EST
    Hardly.

    I am not much of a supporter anymore.

    But in 2003-04, I was a champ cult member for Clark.

    Parent

    That very same Clark who endorsed (none / 0) (#57)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:36:51 PM EST
    HRC, who then immediately and without apology cast her vote for Kyl-Lieberman?

    Parent
    The very same (none / 0) (#62)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:46:59 PM EST
    His political style is wanting (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:30:29 PM EST
    If that were the only consideration, Edwards would be my choice.

    But I have shied away from Edwards because he has chosen to appeal the the baser natures of populism.

    Richardson I simply do not think is much of an advocate for issues.

    And Hillary is the frontrunner meaning she avoids issues whenever possible.

    Ergo, Obama wins by default.

    Parent

    I noticed at the Harkin Steak Fry (none / 0) (#55)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:34:40 PM EST
    in Indianola, Iowa, Edwards was the only candidate savvy enough to actually dress for a Steak Fry.  Jeans and blue shirt w/sleeves rolled up.  A man of the earth.  I don't like his constant references to his brave, ill wife.  Get the job on your own, John.

    Parent
    Very logical (none / 0) (#56)
    by Maryb2004 on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:36:12 PM EST
    It's always good when head and heart come together.

    Edwards was my default candidate until he got stupid over public funding.  Now ... I'll probably draw a name from a hat on election day.  

    Parent

    But my closet Hillary tendencies . . . (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:46:36 PM EST
    Its all about pant suits. Love 'em (none / 0) (#65)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:58:27 PM EST
    or hate 'em.

    Sorry to report you UnEndorsement did not make Magnifico's 4 at 4.  Off the radar screen.

    Parent

    A sad, revealing statement if ever (none / 0) (#33)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:59:23 PM EST
    there was one!

    Will you be posting further on McClurkin/Obama issues?

    Parent

    Almost certainly (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:00:53 PM EST
    And on SS crisis.

    Obama is not endorsed, but even if he was, I will continue to critique him.

    jgarza may not understand my focus but that is of no matter to me.

    Parent

    Are you denying you are a closeted (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:02:25 PM EST
    HRC supporter?

    Parent
    Anyone familiar with me (5.00 / 4) (#46)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:14:04 PM EST
    knows that all my secrets are now public knowledge, much to my chagrin.

    It has not been fun.

    Why I would hide the fact, were it true, that I support Hillary is beyond me.

    I do not think it is a matter of shame.
     

    Parent

    Or, as my college roommate sd. about (none / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:00:56 PM EST
    her fiancee, "he's good raw material."  Didn't work out long term though.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:56:10 PM EST
    Yes, I shook them up with this one.

    But let's be honest, I supported Dodd the issues candidate.

    Dodd, the actual candidate has no chance in this anyway.

    Now he is just another fool being led by the nose by idiot Beltway consultants.

    Parent

    His internet team (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by andgarden on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:00:40 PM EST
    seems far superior to anyone else working for him.

    Parent
    Indeed (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:01:45 PM EST
    If they ran strategy I think some of this would not be happening.

    This is stupid Chris Lehane stuff.

    Parent

    I had to Google Lehane (none / 0) (#41)
    by andgarden on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:04:55 PM EST
    "His internet team" is most likely (none / 0) (#40)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:03:47 PM EST
    in crisis mode after this UnEndorsement.

    Parent
    What I love is that (none / 0) (#43)
    by andgarden on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:06:06 PM EST
    BTD says he can be won back. I absolutely believe that. Of course, they aren't empowered to do what needs to be done in order to make that happen.

    Parent
    That's how women think, not men! (5.00 / 1) (#44)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:08:59 PM EST
    If only I . . . .

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#45)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:11:50 PM EST
    Believe you me, they were nice about it, but did not care much.

    I told them they need to find a new writer for my Thursday MYDD gig.

    Parent

    Oh--that was my very next question. (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:17:11 PM EST
    Who is "they"?  Mydd or Dodd campaign?

    Parent
    Both actually (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:28:41 PM EST
    If someone takes over the Dodd slot (none / 0) (#73)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:27:39 PM EST
    on mydd, you will have the opportunity to jump in and criticize and tout Obama.  

    Parent
    really? (none / 0) (#79)
    by RedHead on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:49:26 PM EST
    BTD "touts" Obama at MYDD ??

    can you provide some links?

    At mydd has BTD ever (using your word) "criticized" Clinton ??  If so, can you provide some backup (links)??

    thanks.

    Parent

    You are a piece of work. Mydd has weekly (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:56:30 PM EST
    posts by advocates of individual Dem. presidential primary candidates.  BTD has been writing the weekly post on Dodd.  Others jump in and, instead of critiquing Dodd, start either bashing other candidates or extolling the candidate they support.     Don't worry about it.

    Parent
    Foolish me. (none / 0) (#84)
    by RedHead on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 04:14:24 PM EST

    See I took you seriously when you said BTD was touting Obama at mydd.  It sounded far fetched, that's why I asked for the links.

    That aside, regarding posts in general, failing to provide links in comments is sloppy, lazy, and weak.

    Parent

    Has he hired new consultants? (none / 0) (#34)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:00:02 PM EST
    well (none / 0) (#49)
    by Maryb2004 on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:25:38 PM EST
    idiot Beltway consultants

    there's no need to use redundant adjectives.   They're all led by idiot consultants, Beltway or not.  

    Parent

    Pleonasm (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by squeaky on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:42:32 PM EST
    Good word; new to me. (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:46:54 PM EST
    Turns out is is also the name of a blog.  Funny.

    Parent
    I Learned It Here Too (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by squeaky on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:59:10 PM EST
    From Bernarda's comment:

    Republican coward is a pleonasm.


    Parent
    "Kerning" and "cooptation." (none / 0) (#74)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:28:34 PM EST
    These are words I learned here.

    Parent
    That (none / 0) (#83)
    by Maryb2004 on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:57:28 PM EST
    is a wonderful word.  Thanks!

    Parent
    They all disappoint us. (5.00 / 1) (#63)
    by Geekesque on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:48:49 PM EST
    People who don't tune in until the last few weeks have it right.

    Is that ever true (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:52:14 PM EST
    Truth be told, I'm really starting to kinda hate them all.

    Parent
    "Hate" is too strong for me. (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:03:22 PM EST
    "Indifferent."  

    Parent
    I'm ready (1.00 / 1) (#8)
    by Jgarza on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:51:10 PM EST
    for you to admit you support Hillary.
    Up until the last debate you supported Dodd(as Hillary's vp) because rather than being a presidential candidate, he was being a good senator.  Now that he has started playing the roll of a presidential candidate (and since Hillary is a presidential candidate that means he has to run against your supreme leader)you are throwing him under the bus.

    BTD'd idea of a presidential primary, is for us to anoint Hillary our nominee and for every one to fight it out for VP.  So now are you going to "endorse" Richardson?

    More likely Obama (5.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:52:35 PM EST
    as the least bad choice.

    But you go on with your conspiracy theories.

    Ignore my arguments.

    Your Cult will be proud.

    Parent

    He's on to you (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:00:03 PM EST
    big guy. We all know you are a secret Hillary supporter, but you are afraid to admit it because people might actually criticize you for supporting her.

    And it's really worked well since I've never ever seen anyone criticize you before. But now that Jgarza is here, the jig is up. It was fun while it lasted.

    Parent

    Yeah (1.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Jgarza on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:45:32 PM EST
    because I'm the only one who ever brings this up in his posts criticizing every candidate but Hillary.  Its only me that has noticed.

    You must be a bit on sycophantic if you don't see I'm not the only bringing this up.

    Parent

    I gather from your comment that you read most (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:55:20 PM EST
    of Jeralyn's posts.  Therefore, it seems likely you've noticed that, although she has not "endorsed" any candidate, she frequently posts about Clinton, and I don't recall seeing much reference to Clinton's negatives.  BTD, on the other hand, has been quite critical of Clinton for not leading on the issue of getting out of Iraq now and for her vote in favor of Kyl-Lieberman.

    Parent
    Don't let the facts stand in the way (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:58:55 PM EST
    of a good smear of me.

    Parent
    Reads more like Lewis Carroll than a (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:05:23 PM EST
    good smear.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#47)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:14:40 PM EST
    Prove it (none / 0) (#71)
    by RedHead on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:18:49 PM EST
    BTD doesn't need any help.  By knitting him a life-line you only make him look weaker.

    But I dare you to prove your comment.  Show me the citations - you can't, they don't exist.

    Parent

    Click on "search," then on (none / 0) (#75)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:30:51 PM EST
    "bigtentdemocrat," I will acknowledge the criticims of Clinton's vote in favor of Kyl-Lieberman was a tad late.  

    Parent
    just tired (none / 0) (#78)
    by RedHead on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:45:17 PM EST
    clicked on "BTD"'s name - nada

    then tried search using "BTD"'s name - still nada.

    you should add the links for readers to see.  most people, even BTD, include links with their comments.

    Parent

    Wow (none / 0) (#77)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:40:42 PM EST
    You're sharp. Can't fool you. You got me pegged too.

    I'm a Kucinich supporter btw. But I'm secretly a Biden supporter. And I'm a double super secret Gravel supporter. But that's so secret that I can't even admit it to myself.

    Parent

    Of course he can't admit it; that would (none / 0) (#22)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:36:40 PM EST
    validate the conspiracy w/J theory.

    Parent
    Thats the funny thing (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Jgarza on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:29:14 PM EST
    I follow your arguments, the logical conclusion from reading them is you support Hillary.
    I support Hillary Clinton, I think you should admit you do too.

    Parent
    I really don't thing you have been reading (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:30:54 PM EST
    closely or long enough.  

    Parent
    I think (1.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Jgarza on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:34:04 PM EST
    BTD is having an identity crisis.

    OMG i said crisis, hurry write a post denouncing me.

    Parent

    Why bother (5.00 / 4) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:58:08 PM EST
    Your mental limitationsa are clear to us now.

    Parent
    Ha! (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:32:58 PM EST
    That is funny.

    Especially the part where you say you follow my argument.

    Not once have you been able to.

    For a while I thought it was a put on.

    I realize now you just are not very smart.

    Parent

    insult criticizer (none / 0) (#23)
    by Jgarza on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:37:00 PM EST
    I realize now you just are not very smart.

    do you watch fox news often?


    Parent

    Nope (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:57:28 PM EST
    Broken Record (none / 0) (#72)
    by RedHead on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:22:28 PM EST
    by now you should realize that either you're with BTD or you "know nothing"

    It's the classic spousal/parental abuse-speak:

    "can't you do anything right!"

    "you don't know nothing!"

    "you're worthless!"

    "Blah, Blah, Blah"

    Parent

    You poor (none / 0) (#80)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:50:30 PM EST
    child.

    Parent
    Now, now (none / 0) (#85)
    by RedHead on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 04:18:50 PM EST
    such language is forboten!

    I'm sure BTD will remind you of this rule, seeing he's a man who stands on principle.

    Parent

    Talex? Nah! hrh. . . (none / 0) (#81)
    by andgarden on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:50:41 PM EST
    Heh! (none / 0) (#87)
    by RedHead on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 04:27:05 PM EST
    You don't help BTD by sticking up for him; it's the contrary.

    If they haven't taught you this by now, you should figure it out before you ever sit in the 2nd chair.

    I could fully respond, but I am constrained by respect for Jeralyn - a true attorney.

    Parent

    I resemble jgarza got a full blown (none / 0) (#69)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:10:47 PM EST
    "Ha," as opposed to that weaker "Heh."

    Parent
    Ron Paul (none / 0) (#1)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:43:53 PM EST
    it is! ;-)

    No one it is (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:46:40 PM EST
    more likely.

    There is no law that says we have to support a candidate in the primaries.

    right now, I do onot support any, but I think I would vote Obama as of today.

    Parent

    You mean (none / 0) (#5)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:49:42 PM EST
    this isn't an endorsement of Ron Paul?

    My mistake. Carry on.

    Parent

    I disclose that I would vote for Obama (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:50:55 PM EST
    but that I do not support or endorse him.

    Make of that what you will.

    Parent

    I'm just kidding you (none / 0) (#10)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:52:25 PM EST
    I'm in a snarky mood I guess, not trying to give you a hard time.

    Parent
    I know (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:54:07 PM EST
    but it gives me a chance to explain what I mean.

    OF course, some Cultists will assume what they will assume.

    Crazy people can not be reasoned with.

    Parent

    You're practising (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:56:52 PM EST
    for the inevitable onslaught. Wise move. Glad I could help.

    Parent
    No one it is (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:47:38 PM EST
    more likely.

    There is no law that says we have to support a candidate in the primaries.

    right now, I do onot support any, but I think I would vote Obama as of today.

    Parent

    Why can't you support (none / 0) (#3)
    by HeadScratcher on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:46:55 PM EST
    A candidate who believes in honesty and integrity and who also argues the right side of the issues?

    He's trying to show a reason to support him as opposed to Sen. Clinton. He's just contrasting himself. As long as a candidate is somewhat honest and credible and supports the same issues I do then they get my vote. I could care less about the politics of certain moves.

    That presupposes (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:50:02 PM EST
    that I believe Dodd has an edge on "honesty and integrity."

    I do not think any of the candidates do.

    Pols are pols. There is nothing in Dodd's record that argues he is the "honesty and integrity" candidate.

    Heck, there is hardly such a thing.

    There are 2 that I can recall - Paul Wellstone and Russ Feingold. Heck, you could throw in Sam Brownback if you like.

    IT is DISHONEST of Dodd to pretend he is more honest than Clinton. None of them are honest. They are pols after all.

    Parent

    But Dodd (none / 0) (#9)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:51:28 PM EST
    never killed my cat. That's got to count for something.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 12:53:06 PM EST
    Just so.

    Parent
    If you support Dodd on issues (none / 0) (#76)
    by Lora on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:38:24 PM EST
    Then why come down on him like a ton of bricks for trying to appeal to Joe and Jane Voter, and trying to show up the front-running candidate?

    If you really care about issues, then a little political hardball shouldn't trouble you.  Besides, I KNOW Hillary has either lied or been totally stupid about the Iraq war.  I don't know what Dodd has lied or been totally stupid about.  Perhaps you can enlighten me.

    Parent

    re "An UnEndorsement" (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 01:34:35 PM EST
    Didn't care for the title.  But, apparently there is no good antonym for "Endorsement."  Carry on.

    ANTONYMS

    I guess this means (none / 0) (#60)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 02:46:43 PM EST
    you're going to take up the little guy who's all about the Big Issues in this campaign, Dennis Kucinich.

    ROFLOL!! (none / 0) (#68)
    by RedHead on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:06:18 PM EST
    hahahahhahhahahhahahahhahahhaahhahahah

    I thought you'd keep the mask on until super Tuesday.

    Well, well, well, a Clinton sniper emerges, after a year in the shadows.  

    I take it things are slipping in IA and NH.

     

    This is (none / 0) (#70)
    by taylormattd on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 03:11:36 PM EST
    the problem with all of them. They do things I like. They do things I don't like. They support some positions I like. They support some positions I don't like. What to do.

    Eh, I think you're stretching here. (none / 0) (#88)
    by DA in LA on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 06:46:43 PM EST
    She was evasive on many questions.  It was a discouraging display.  He doesn't seem to be commenting on just the DL issue in the press release.  

    He is still my top candidate at this point.

    Looking for honesty? (none / 0) (#89)
    by Ben Masel on Fri Nov 09, 2007 at 08:44:13 PM EST
    There;'s always Gravel.