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NY Times Blasts Repubublican Candidates Over Immigration


A New York Times editorial today sharply criticizes the Republican candidates for President over immigration. It also calls on the Demoratic candidates to speak out more forcefully for sane and workable immigration reform.

The problem is that the country cannot build a fence or send troops and expect its problems to go away. Huge numbers of illegal immigrants never go anywhere near the border: about 40 percent enter legally and overstay their visas. Nor can the government purge workplaces of illegal workers without doing vast damage to the economy. At some point it must address the 12 million undocumented, who cannot be deported en masse.

The Times frames the questions both sides need to answer: [More....]

What should be the role of immigrant labor in our economy? How does the country maximize its benefits and lessen its ill effects? Once the border is fortified, what happens to the 12 million illegal immigrants already here? Should they be expelled or allowed to assimilate? How? What about the companies that hire them?

And what about the future flow of workers? Should the current system of legal immigration, with its chronic backlogs and morbid inefficiencies, be tweaked or trashed? What is the proper role of state and local governments in enforcing immigration laws? And will a national identity card for immigrants bring on Big Brother for everyone?

Instead of providing solutions, the Republican candidates have tripped over themselves and flip-flopped:

Instead of answering these questions, the Republican candidates have spent their time blasting one another as coddlers of illegal immigrants and supporters of “amnesty.” This has proved tricky, however, for the candidates who in previous lives had to deal with immigration in the real world, where immigrant energy and low-end labor — both legal and illegal — tend to bolster economies and make life easier for everyone.

There's Romney:

Only two years ago, while governor of Massachusetts, Mitt Romney spoke favorably of a Senate bill that offered illegal immigrants a path to citizenship. Now he says he hates amnesty, condemns Rudolph Giuliani for having been mayor of a “sanctuary city” and has accepted endorsements from hard-liners like Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Ariz., who hounds immigrant day laborers as aggressively as he chases headlines.

There's Giuliani:

Mr. Giuliani once welcomed undocumented immigrants and sued the federal government to preserve an executive order that shielded them from deportation. Now he links immigration and terrorism in the same breath, and talks of cracking the whip through databases and enforcement schemes with names like BorderStat.

There's Huckabee:

For a while it looked as if Mike Huckabee would be a sensibly contrarian Republican. As governor of Arkansas he supported financial aid for illegal-immigrant students, and when Mr. Romney rebuked him for it in a debate, he scolded right back, “Our country is better than that, to punish children for what their parents did.” Then this month he did a stunning backflip, unveiling his “Secure America Plan,” which would require the expulsion of all illegal immigrants within 120 days.

Only John McCain gets praise from the Times:

He speaks of immigrants as “G-d’s children” and stoutly defends the path to citizenship for the undocumented. Given what he has gone through, his stance is close to heroic.

The Times acknowledges that last year's immigration reform bill had flaws, but maintains it had "the seeds of true reform."

The truth is this: Americans cannot expect immigrants to serve them — to make their beds and meals, feed their babies and ailing parents, and pick their crops — while living in fear and hopelessness.

I don't think the "seeds of true reform" is enough. I'd rather see no bill than a bad bill and had last year's bill passed, its flawed policies would be in place for years.

Once residing in this country, our immigrant workers are entitled to recognition and the right to living wages, safe working conditions and other worker protections.

As the National Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights organization (NNIRR) says, they should have “the same rights as any other member of the U.S.: the right to travel, work, live, study and worship freely and safely, and to reunite their families without discrimination and violence.”

We do need immigration reform. But what we need is a non-punitive immigration reform bill, one that is humane and provides equality, dignity and a clear path to citizenship. Here are some essential ingredients, according to NNIRR:

  • Provide the opportunity for undocumented immigrants to legalize their status
  • Eliminate criminal sanctions for immigration violations
  • Expand avenues for legal immigration and support family reunification
  • Provide access and options for permanent residency and citizenship
  • Strengthen labor protections and their enforcement for all workers, both native and foreign born
  • End border and immigration enforcement abuses.

The Immigrant Solidarity Network provides these ten points of unity:

1) No to anti-immigrant legislation, and the criminalization of the immigrant communities.
2) No to militarization of the border.
3) No to the immigrant detention and deportation.
4) No to the guest worker program.
5) No to employer sanction and "no match" letters.
6) Yes to a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants.
7) Yes to speedy family reunification.
8) Yes to civil rights and humane immigration law.
9) Yes to labor rights and living wages for all workers.
10) Yes to the education and LGBT immigrant legislation.

Democrats should say no to a border fence and mandatory ID cards. The undocumented should not have to leave their families and return to their home countries while awaiting re-entry at the back of the line, which will take years. Drivers' licenses should be available to the undocumented as well as the ability to open bank accounts. They must be encouraged to come out of the shadows and live without fear. Our immigration policy must respect basic human rights. As NNIRR says(pdf)

We call for a national immigration policy in the U.S. built upon the principles of human security with dignity, justice, and equality, and that uphold the civil and human rights of all people, regardless of their race, color, class, religion, ethnicity, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, disability, immigration or citizenship status.

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  • Display: Sort:
    It's difficult (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 01:06:23 PM EST
    to get sensible immigration reform passed when there's so much hostility towards undocumented workers. I recently drove across country and listening to talk radio's constant stream of invective and paranoia concerning undocumented laborers you'd think Tulsa was being overrun by Mexican panzer divisions.

    Undocumented workers no more steal jobs than they steal oxygen, a fact that continually eludes some of the most acute social liberals on this site. Undocumented workers contribute to the American economy hugely, while their remittances to their families help to grow Latin American economies. All it takes to make this a win/win solution is a little political resolve; all it would take to make undocumented workers legal is the proper documents. This isn't the sort of existential threat to America immigrant haters would have folk believe it is, but ever since the cold war faded, they've needed something to latch on to. Maybe Putin and Bush will get a new cold war going and the fearmongers will have something else to prattle about.

    Please answer this one simple question. (1.00 / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 01:36:04 PM EST
    How can the illegal alien possibly contribute to the economy when the jobs they take are not created by them and would be taken by legal workers if the illegals weren't here?

    Labor is a commodity. Commodities are always priced based on the quantity available.

    They add nothing that is not already here. Labor.
    Worse they depress the price of labor and remove the stress for decent working conditions just because they are here.

    Parent

    Your question isn't simple (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 01:58:30 PM EST
    it's simplistic.

    Imagine how people living in a country spend money on goods and services in that country from income earned there as a first step to answering your foolish query.

    But your colors are revealed with your continual assertions that immigrants add nothing to American culture or the economy. You might wish it so but rational folk see and say otherwise.

    In case you haven't noticed, there's been a war on unions and labor generally led by such social liberals as Reagan that has nothing to do with immigration. The standard of living has fallen for the vast formerly middle class, because the class warriors that lead the Republican party have altered the economic landscape to favor the super-rich over the working class. But go ahead and blame the poor, it's the socially liberal thing to do.

    Immigration reform that recognized transnationality, that enabled unionization in such job sectors as meat packing, restaurants, construction, and that was enforced could easily resolve the so-called crisis you seem to be so happy to flog.

    You didn't answer (1.00 / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 03:06:27 PM EST
    Imagine how people living in a country spend money on goods and services in that country from income earned there as a first step to answering your foolish query.

    Nice try and redefining the question, but we aren't talking about "people." We are talking about "illegal aliens. The question is how illegal aliens can contribute to the economy? Try reading the post.

    Nor can the government purge workplaces of illegal workers without doing vast damage to the economy.

    If they weren't here, the jobs would be taken by  legal workers. So they bring nothing additional.

    Since they add nothing to the economy that was not already here, all costs associated with them are net losses to the economy because without them you would not have the expenditures.

    And that doesn't include non-payment of FIT in many cases, and money sent out of the country and out of the economy.

    Pretty simple stuff. And you understand that, and you know that is correct, which is why you want to use the word "people" rather than the subject at hand.

    As for your inane blather re unions.... I again note that labor is a commodity. Mass influxes of illegal aliens drive the price down and hampers the ability of unions to organize.

    Your "transnational" whatever is merely an excuse for open borders.

    So quit whining about the evil Repubs and start supporting polices that will help the American working man and woman and quit trying to import Democrat voters.

    Parent

    "We aren't talking about people" (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 03:33:27 PM EST
    You may not think undocumented workers are people, but that's your hate problem, not mine.

    Everything else in your post is such beyond the pale garbage that it doesn't merit a response.

    Parent

    You don't answer the question. (1.00 / 0) (#8)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 05:02:15 PM EST
    The question is not about "people."

    The question is about a subset of "people" called "illegal aliens."

    Now. Answer the question.

    And quit trying to avoid by yelling "hate" and other such BS.

    Frankly tnthorpe you can't answer it. My point is indisputable.

    Parent

    We're talking about people, Jim.... (5.00 / 2) (#7)
    by dutchfox on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 04:40:45 PM EST
    I just wish you'd realise that. People! Families with children. Very easy for you to use the Repubican buzz words "illegal" and "alien" in one breath, which just demonises and dehumanises.

    Parent
    dutchfox (1.00 / 1) (#9)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 05:18:10 PM EST
    And your point is what??

    "People" exist as a group. Tnthorpe claims that "people" spend money and contribute to the economy.

    But that isn't the question. Go back and read what the post said. Let me quote it for you.

    Nor can the government purge workplaces of illegal workers without doing vast damage to the economy.

    "Illegal workers" are "illegal aliens." The claim is that they make contributions to the economy.

    That, as I have demonstrated, is nonsense because the jobs they take would otherwise be taken by "legal workers." So the illegals add nothing.

    tnthorpe tried to reframe the question. I didn't let him so now all he can do is spew and stomp and  scream that I "hate."

    He also played the "union busting" card, which again is nonsense. It was the availability of cheap illegal labor that destroyed what once was good paying jobs in the meat packing industry.

    The problem you both face is that you can't cope with simple logic.

    Now. Want to help the illegals aliens?? Start raising hell with Washington for our government to start raising hell with Mexico/other governments to fix its problems. Force them to reform. Force them to put safety nets in place for their poor. Force them to support changes that will change their exports from people to goods.

    Quit being a shill for the Mexican/other government elite and the Demo politicians.

    Mow your own grass. Trim your own bushes. Paint your own house. Quit living the good life on the backs of illegal aliens and American workers made poorer because of them.

    Talk is cheap, people. Start walking the walk.

    If you're able.


    Parent

    PPJ spontaneously combusts (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 10:42:36 PM EST
    Your capacity to self-immolate is on display once again, and I didn't even need to hand you the zippo.

    As for your republican sycophancy syndrome, good luck with that.

    Parent

    You are the one who (1.00 / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 10:54:03 PM EST
    use the "hate" word. And you're the one who enjoys invoking unspeakable acts of violence with your "self-immolate" visions.

    I think that says who you are quite well.

    You're also the one who wants cheap labor and the good life on the backs of the illegal aliens and the US citizens made poor because they're here.

    What's a matter? Can't figure out how to start a lawn mower? Can't figure out which end of the hedge clippers you hold??? A paint brush won't fit your tender hand??

    You are in a loosing position with the VAST majority of the American voter and will likely lose any chance of seeing a Demo elected president.

    Enjoy feeling self righteous.

    Parent

    I just write (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:15:24 PM EST
    what I see, and face it PPJ, you're being called on peddling hate.

    Stop hating and I'll stop calling you on it.

    But then it's a typical conservative gambit to sell something--immigrant bashing, racism, class war--and then to complain when caught doing it. But that's your problem, deal with it.

    Parent

    Nope (1.00 / 1) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:23:48 PM EST
    Nope. You're the one who said watching Rove burning alive was no problem, and now you're the one who brings up burning again.

    You are the hater. You say so yourself.

    Now, you can't sell your "illegal aliens contribute to the economy" nonsense, and you can't sell your "illegal aliens would be good for unions" nonsense and you can't dispute that an excess of workers always lowers wages and working conditions, all you can do is smear.

    How typical of an "open borders" person.

    Parent

    You peddle nonsense (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by tnthorpe on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:36:14 PM EST

    and surprise surprise, no one buys but you.

    Keep up the spontaneous combustion, but it's a shame you produce more smoke than light.

    Parent

    tnthorpe (1.00 / 1) (#19)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:16:53 AM EST
    I asked you a simple question. And that was to tell us how illegal aliens, who bring nothing into the country except their labor, and who take that labor and steal jobs from legal US workers, contribute anything to the economy.

    You have not answered. Instead you have tried to say that "people" contribute to the economy. Fine. Except we are not talking about "people" as a group. We are talking about "illegal aliens."

    And if the illegal aliens did not take the jobs they would be taken by legal workers, so the illegals have added NOTHING.

    In response you have yelled "hate," etc., with no proof at all. My responses have been measured and sympathetic towards the plight of the illegal aliens. In fact, I suggested we solve the problem by pushing Mexico and other governments to by fixing their economic and cultural problems, thus removing the driving force that makes their citizens travel thousands of miles, often at risk, to find work.

    You are not a problem solver, you are an enabler. One of the many who do not seem to care that Mexico and other governments are based on a system that does not provide for their poor, preferring to export them to the US so they can send money back to Mexico to keep its tottering system in place.

    For shame.

    Parent

    the shame is yours, PPJ (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by tnthorpe on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:46:22 AM EST
    keep your crocodile tears to yourself.

    Making ignorant blanket statements about a whole group of people you demonize is hate, whether you care to acknowledge it or not.

    Saying that undocumented workers are simply drains on the economy, that they contribute nothing is simply a bald-faced lie.

    You prattle about your logic, and I'm sure the crowd on Powerlies and Gates of Vienna crowd finds you a compassionate conservative, but I sure don't buy your hateful rhetoric.

    As for fixing NAFTA, etc. there's a great deal of work to do to undo the Republican assault on the middle class that's been enabled by a weak and foolish bunch of Democratic enablers.

    I'll reconsider your hateful pronouncements when I see you actually say something different than the typical Tancredo immigrant basher says. In the meantime, face up to your position like an adult and stop whining about others such as myself objecting to the hate you spew.

    Parent

    Demonize?? (1.00 / 1) (#27)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 08:59:51 AM EST
    Let me see, I describe them accurately and note accurately that they take legal US Citizens' jobs and contribute nothing ADDITIONAL to the economy while consuming services.

    That happens to be accurate. Are you claiming we should lie to support your favorite fantasy??

    You go ahead, I will stick to the truth.

    As for reconsidering, I doubt you have the capability to understand the simple concept that jobs aren't created for illegal aliens. Jobs exists because someone wants to buy goods and services. For an employer to deliver those things employees are needed. If the illegal aliens were not here the employer would have to hire legal US workers. The employer would mostly also have to pay better wages, provide better working conditions and benefits.

    But you don't dispute the point. Instead you blather on about "people." Again. We aren't talking about "people." We are talking about a group of people known collectively as illegal aliens. Individually they are known as an illegal alien.

    Just as we refer to "professional baseball players" and "professional baseball player."

    Come, tnthorpe. Prove my point regarding the economy wrong.

    Of course you won't because you can't.

    Tehehe  

    Parent

    Accurate? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 09:15:04 AM EST
    It's a brand spankin' new year staring you in the eye today, ppj.

    And you're going to start it off still fantasizing and hoping against all hope that somehow, someday, someway you'll get lucky and find someone stupid enough to think you make any sense here?

    Hahahahahaha! It's time for a deep and soul searching look at yourself, ppj. Don't bite your fingernails. And pay attention to the kid in the window offering services and contributing to the economy.

    Happy friggin' New Year!

    Parent

    edger (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 02:03:00 PM EST
    I see Santa didn't bring you anything in the smarts department...

    And pay attention to the kid in the window offering services and contributing to the economy.

    Uh... if the kid is an illegal alien he has taken a job from a legal US worker. He has not added anything to the economy that would not have been there if he had stayed in his country and not played The Grinch That Stole Legal US Workers Jobs in the continuing saga of "We Demand Open Borders." Sponsored by the "We Want Cheap Labor Repubs" and the "We Want Voters Demos."

    I think I will crown you "Your Nastiness." It fits what you write so well.

    First of all, (none / 0) (#67)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 25, 2007 at 03:18:25 PM EST

    Do we offer them respect? Absolutely not. We do our best to marginalize and get rid of them.

    Didn't work a year ago, won't work now. Facts and logic are facts and logic. Try some in this brand new year.

    Parent

    Your version of facts and logic, ppj? (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 02:44:42 PM EST
    Read the thread... heh!

    Parent
    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:24:04 PM EST
    I took the post and disputed two points.

    No one has proved me wrong.

    Parent

    No one has to "prove" idiocy wrong. (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:44:25 PM EST
    Idiocy is idiocy, ppj. Flooding a thread with "idiocy" won't make what you post any less "idiocy".

    How many people have you found here at TalkLeft (or anywhere else for that matter) who are stupid enough to think you make any sense?

    Name one... Link to one.

    You're not stupid enough to think that anyone else is stupid enough to think that the idiocy you post here makes any sense whatsoever.

    Are you?

    Parent

    there is nothing (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 02:49:35 PM EST
    accurate about your rant, just the same thoughtless bile post after post.

    As for what I dispute, pretty much everything you say on this subject is a stinking heap of garbage, from your inane assertion about economic non-contribution, to your ridiculous economic dicta, to your refusal to see undocumented workers for who and what they are--folk generally just trying to get by, provide for their families, and live a decent life.

    Doesn't make them all saints, but the vast majority have sinned in nothing other than wanting better for themselves and families. As the lead for this thread shows, there are clear steps that could resolve much of this so-called crisis if folk like you would stop spreading hate. You stand in the way of reform with your fearmongering, your fantasy of hermetically sealed borders,  your inability to be rational. But you're wed to your hateful positions, so deal with them like an adult and acknowledge them for what they are.

    Your positions are morally detestable, your intellection negligible, your repetition tedious.

    You are not nor will you ever be a serious interlocutor.

    Parent

    Facts are facts (1.00 / 1) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:36:58 PM EST
    Tell us tnthorpe, how can someone from outside the country who comes into the country and takes jobs from legal US workers contribute ANY ADDITIONAL dollars to the economy.

    The jobs they take exist whether they are here are not. If they take the jobs all they are doing is taking what is already here. If they are not here the jobs will be taken by legal US workers.

    So what net gain do they bring?

    None. Nada. Zip. Even you should be able to figure that out.

    You must create something that doesn't exist to grow the economy. In fact, by remitting money back to their families outside the US they are depressing the economy.

    And I love it when, after offering nothing but denials you write:

    folk generally just trying to get by, provide for their families, and live a decent life.

    So? That describes everyone I know. But that doesn't give them the right to break the laws.

    Let's face it. You just want open borders. You have no knowledge of how a surplus of a commodity, in this case labor, causes prices to fall.

    So again. Show me where I am wrong in my claim that the illegal aliens do not contribute any additional dollars to the economy.

    hehe

    Parent

    give it a rest (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:52:58 PM EST
    Your assertions are ludicrous.

    Accept you lost the argument and move on.

    Parent

    Admit that you can't prove (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:39:36 PM EST
    the point wrong and I will let it lie.

    Stomping your foot and making claims won't get the job done.

    Parent

    Define "prove". (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Edger on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:45:09 PM EST
    typical PPJ baloney (5.00 / 2) (#48)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:49:40 PM EST
    assert nonsense and crow about how nobody disproves it.

    You must bore even yourself.

    Parent

    Facts be facts (1.00 / 1) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 11:18:43 PM EST
    It must be terrible to live in a world where you have to always deny the truth.

    Parent
    Projecting again. (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Edger on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 09:15:14 AM EST
    Again.

    How does it feel, ppj, to to live in a world where you have to always deny the truth?

    Parent

    Propaganda Minister PPJ (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 12:50:07 PM EST
    It is a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it.

    Parent
    hehe Squeak (1.00 / 1) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 04:58:43 PM EST
    You too.... Refute the point, or otherwise we'll know you can't.

    Of course we already know that.

    And yes, I mean "we." Like in everyone.

    Parent

    As Usual (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 05:25:05 PM EST
    Your idiotic point has been shown to be BS over and over by many commenters here on several threads. No one is interested in playing your game, it gets boring real quick.

    Parent
    Facts be facts (1.00 / 1) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 04:57:05 PM EST
    edger.... And you can't refute, so you mumble and moan...

    hehehe

    Parent

    Off your meds again, huh? (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 01:47:39 AM EST
    Are you squeaky in disguise??? (1.00 / 3) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:18:04 PM EST
    Now he is claiming they aren't people

    You smear as bad as squeaky. But not as smart because you don't even wait until the thread is in the archives. I wrote:

    Actually the first issue isn't deporting 12 million people.

    Now, is there something in your PC shattered brain that thinks the above is a "nasty?"

    Now, tnthorpe decided that he couldn't answer my question, so he decides to try and redefine the question.

    Imagine how people living in a country spend money on goods and service...

    To which I responded:

    Nice try and redefining the question, but we aren't talking about "people." We are talking about "illegal aliens. The question is how illegal aliens can contribute to the economy? Try reading the post.

    You see, tnthorpe wants to change the whole context. The problem is, it is not "people" as a group, it is illegal aliens. In the context of the of people within the US  they are a subset of "people." If you don't like "subset," then call them a "group of people aka illegal aliens."

    And they don't add any new money to the economy. All they do is take jobs that otherwise would be taken by legal workers who would pay FIT, follow the rules re auto insurance and not crowd our emergency rooms.

    Parent

    Immigrants Add $229 Billion (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:08:22 PM EST
    To the NYS economy:
    In upstate New York, five percent of the population is foreign-born, but immigrants play a disproportionately important role in some areas that are key to the region's economy, culture, and history. In universities, immigrants make up 20 percent of all professors, four times their share of the overall population. In health care, the fastest-growing sector in upstate New York, immigrants make up 35 percent of physicians and surgeons. In scientific fields, related to upstate's strength in research and development, immigrants make up 20 percent of computer software engineers and 13 percent of computer scientists and systems analysts. And in farming, important to rural communities and to the cultural heritage of the region, immigrants make up an estimated 80 percent of the seasonal workers who pick the crops. Perhaps surprisingly, the three most common countries of origin for upstate immigrants are Canada, India, and Germany. Mexico, the focus of so much public attention in the immigration debates, comes fourth.


    Although we throw around the word (none / 0) (#88)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:15:08 PM EST
    "immigrants," aren't we really talking about illegal immigrants?

    And not: legal immigrants who are professors, physicians, surgeons, computer software engineers, computer scientists and systems analysts?

    Parent

    No. (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:22:29 PM EST
    They are not criminals (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Jeralyn on Thu May 17, 2007 at 08:21:17 PM PST
    Undocumented residents who entered without proper papers or overstayed their visas are in violation of immigration civil statutes, not the criminal laws.  


    Parent
    legal immigrants who are professors, physicians, surgeons, computer software engineers, computer scientists and systems analysts.

    Parent
    Don't twist my words. (5.00 / 1) (#94)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:39:53 PM EST
    Have more respect for yourself than that. You're not ppj...

    Parent
    If you are talking about (1.00 / 1) (#97)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:59:40 PM EST
    legal/documented immigrants in addition to illegal/undocumented immigrants, then you and I are talking about two very different things.

    Feel free to start/have your own conversation on your own topic if you wish. If you want to respond with relevance to me about my comments, accept the fact that I'm talking about undocumented immigrants only. You're not squeaky...

    Parent

    The term is "Undocumented residents" (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:11:34 PM EST
    You've used "illegal immigrants" until corrected. Then you tried to put words in my mouth. Now you try another twist with "undocumented immigrants".

    All being dishonest does is make you appear dishonest, sarc.

    And make you look like you are trying very hard to be ppj.

    Parent

    How disingenuous. (1.00 / 1) (#105)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 01:54:15 AM EST
    The issue I'm discussing, and the article I'm quoting from and linking to is entitled: "The Economic Logic of Illegal Immigration"

    If you wish to squabble obtusely about some unrelated issue regarding terminology, knock yourself out. However, it's not a squabble I have any interest in participating in.

    Parent

    You deny it? (none / 0) (#123)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 12:52:21 PM EST
    ReRead YOur Own (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:27:02 PM EST
    Link. It concludes that illegal immigrants are a net plus on the economy. The Udall report also found that illegal immigrants are a net plus.

    Parent
    Well, actually, my link says (none / 0) (#93)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:39:40 PM EST
    A back of the envelope calculation then suggests that in the short run immigration in the mid-1990s reduced the annual income of U.S. residents by about 0.1 percent of GDP.

    Given the uncertainties involved in making this calculation, one should not put great stock in the fact that the resulting estimate is negative. The prediction error around the estimate, though unknown, is likely to be large, in which case the -0.1 percent estimate would be statistically indistinguishable from zero.

    Using this sort of analysis, we cannot say with much conviction whether the aggregate impact of immigration on the U.S. economy is positive or negative.

    What available evidence does suggest is that the total impact is small.



    Parent
    Yes BUT (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:54:20 PM EST
    Professor Hanson, the author of the report you linked to, concludes that:

     

    stemming illegal immigration would likely lead to a net drain on the U.S. economy--a finding that calls into question many of the proposals to
    increase funding for border protection.


    Parent
    His "conclusion" (1.00 / 1) (#98)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:00:54 PM EST
    isn't supported by his own report. I wonder why not?

    Parent
    Maybe (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 06:45:35 PM EST
    Because you have not read the report. Hanson uses the NRC study to show that the frenzy about closing the borders is absurd. According to your quote the issue is a non-issue as far as economic impact goes.

    Using this sort of analysis, we cannot say with much conviction whether the aggregate impact of immigration on the U.S. economy is positive or negative.

    What available evidence does suggest is that the total impact is small.

    More from Hanson regarding the NRC study:

     

    Given that the estimates in question require strong assumptions and in the end are only a fraction of a percent of
    U.S. GDP, one cannot say that they differ significantly from zero. For the U.S. economy, immigration appears to be more or less a wash.

    What Hanson concludes is that all the twisted undies from bedwetters calling for a wall along the Mexican border and surveillance drones will have a negative impact on the US economy. IOW you, ppj. and others who are making immigration, illegal and legal, a supersized issue are the real problem.

    Parent

    Exactly. (1.00 / 0) (#104)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 01:34:37 AM EST
    According to your quote the issue is a non-issue as far as economic impact goes.
    Have I ever said the economic impact is anything but?

    After skimming 70+ comments on this thread from the blathering triumphant composed mostly of "Yes it is." "No it isn't." "Yes it is." "No it isn't." I google and find that this study, amid many qualifiers, says that the economic impact of illegal/undocumented/aliens/immigrants/workers/residents/whatever you think is the right term, is essentially nil.

    And I include that conclusion in ALL of the quotes I took from the article.

    But you are such a victim that anyone who's not your saviour is automatically your oppressor. Someone's either with you or they're with the terrorists, er, enemy.

    It's time for you to decide to grow up.

    Parent

    Sure Big Guy (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by squeaky on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 02:42:32 AM EST
    Whatever you say.

    The quote that you picked out was used by the author to show that those who argue that illegal immigration is bleeding our country dry and that the undocumented workers are stealing jobs from Americans is nonsense. Once he knocks that misconception down he goes on to show that undocumented workers are a vital asset for economic and social growth in the US.

    So why do you argue that illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be fixed. Sounds like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

    Parent

    We are discussing the economic impact of (none / 0) (#115)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 09:01:50 AM EST
    illegal immigration.

    As you well know, but seem unable to admit, I have never said anything on this topic except what I have written on this thread. Why do you continue to steadfastly claim otherwise? It sounds like you're being dishonest.

    The quote that you picked out was used by the author to show that those who argue that illegal immigration is bleeding our country dry and that the undocumented workers are stealing jobs from Americans is nonsense.
    100% wrong. He completely says that illegal immigration takes jobs from Americans.
    These benefits, however, are not shared equally. Labor inflows from abroad
    redistribute income away from workers who compete with immigrants in the labor
    market. George Borjas estimates that over the period 1980 to 2000 immigration
    contributed to a decrease in average U.S. wages of 3 percent.34 This estimate accounts for
    the total change in the U.S. labor force due to immigration, including both legal and
    illegal sources. Since immigration is concentrated among the low-skilled, low-skilled
    natives are the workers most likely to be hurt. Over the 1980 to 2000 period, wages of
    native workers without a high school degree fell by 9 percent as a result of immigration.
    Your claim that he siad otherwise is making you look dishonest, again.

    Parent
    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by squeaky on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 03:36:28 PM EST
    You do not get it. Why don't you forget about Hanson and stick with the NRC or CIS report which he uses as a strawman to debunk anti-immigration fearmongers. Because that seems to be all you are reading in Hanson's report, or at least quoting.

    It is odd that if you do not see undocumented workers as a problem, which you seem to be vaguely implying,  that you would only quote from Hanson's strawman, the NRC report.

    If you actually read Hanson's report, you would know that he argues that there is little to worry about low skilled undocumented workers taking away jobs from Americans. He goes on to say that the flow of undocumented workers efficiently helps the free market in the US. He also debunks the current version of a guest worker plan as a bad idea.

    Hanson's own words:

    This analysis concludes that there is little evidence that legal immigration is economically preferable to illegal immigration. In fact, illegal immigration responds to
    market forces in ways that legal immigration does not.

    [snip]

    Due to steady increases in high school completion rates, native-born U.S. workers with low schooling levels are increasingly hard to find. Yet these workers are an important part of the U.S. economy--they build homes, prepare food, clean offices,
    harvest crops, and take unfilled factory jobs. Between 1960 and 2000, the share of working-age native-born U.S. residents with less than twelve years of schooling fell from
    50 percent to 12 percent.

    [snip]

    From an economic perspective, the question for policymakers then becomes whether the costs of halting illegal immigration would significantly outweigh the possible benefits. This paper has already discussed the benefits that come from having a flexible supply of low-skilled labor, which would be jeopardized by some of the reforms being considered. In addition, the enforcement costs of reducing the flow of illegal migrants are
    substantial and growing.

    [snip]

    If immigration reform has the effect of replacing flexible and mobile illegal workers with inflexible and immobile guest workers, it would be likely to diminish the immigration surplus that foreign labor generates for the U.S. economy.

    [snip]

    If, instead, illegal immigrants were allowed to remain in the country and obtain legal residence visas, the economic impact would depend on the rights granted to these individuals. In the short run, the economic impact of legalization would likely be
    minimal.

    Why you are concerned about the border and employers that hire the undocumented as you indicate in your reply to ppj. Somehow I doubt that you are concerned for the undocumented workers health and wellbeing:

    Outside of the (none / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:52:47 PM EST
    impact of illegal aliens, which I think is huge and getting larger, I agree. And a legal foreign worker program works for me.
    But if we don't close the border we will never fix the problem.

    Do that first.

    I think the two main levers are (none / 0) (#84)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 04:15:01 PM EST
    control of the borders and control of the employers.  



    Parent
    nobody lives at the "macro" level (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 03:02:29 AM EST
    now, do they? So when speaking of contributions, we might want to focus on the people, not the statistics, right? If you can't get the name of those people right, or don't see the point in it, then perhaps you might want to before you offer more of your ever so brilliant analysis sarc.

    Parent
    in my first post.

    At the micro level in some localities illegal immigrants take jobs from and reduce the incomes of some citizens and/or legal immigrant workers.

    That in a different locality they raise the incomes of some citizens and/or legal immigrant workers doesn't do those in another locality who are negatively impacted much good, now does it?

    Parent

    sure (5.00 / 1) (#118)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 10:40:22 AM EST
    but then the question isn't one, as PPJ here would have it, of whether undocumented workers contribute to the US economy, since clearly they do, but how best to manage it. This is a complex issue to be sure and is very location and industry specific. The benefits and deficits of undocumented immigrant labor are unevenly distributed and that causes no end of problems.

    But in no case can I agree with those who see in the permeability of the border some profound existential threat to the US, nor do I think much of approaching Hispanic/Catholic culture with the Buchananite culture clash rhetoric favored by this site's resident "social liberal." Rather, I consistently argue for the rational reform of immigration law. Look at the suggestions found in the thread's lead for some basic, good ideas.

     

    Parent

    And I am happy to respond (1.00 / 0) (#124)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 03:29:44 PM EST
    but then the question isn't one, as PPJ here would have it, of whether undocumented workers contribute to the US economy, since clearly they do,

    You seem to be hung up on the fact that illegal aliens spend some of the money they make from jobs in the US, in the US. No one disputes that.

    The issue is that if they had not been here the jobs would have been taken by legal US workers and the same money would have been spent.

    And since they have contributed nothing additional, the net gain is zero. For every dollar earned and spent by the illegal aliens, a dollar was not earned and spent by legal workers.

    As for the economic and social conditions in the countries that were settled by/possessions of non-English speaking people, all you have to do is look at the results.

    Do you think people are flooding into the US because their native countries are meeting their needs?

    Hey Ma! Everything is great! Let's leave all our friends and family and walk hundreds of miles to take a low paying job in the US.

    You scream complex because that is the classic way to keep the status quo. It is just too complicated to fix. That, of course, is nonsense. I repeat what I wrote earlier.

    Problem. We have  a huge influx of illegal aliens who are depressing the wage levels, job market for legal US workers. Plus they are stressing the infrastructure and costing billions in services.
    1.    Close the border.
    2.    Determine what to do with the 13,000,000 already here.
    2a. Deport all of them. Not feasible.
    2b. Eliminate sanctuary cities, deport those caught.
    2c. Change laws to stop children born to illegals becoming citizens. (Anchor babies)
    2d. Severely punish all employers who hire illegals. (Dry up jobs)
    2e. Provide free transportation and no sanctions for those who ask to be transported home.
    3. Pressure Mexico and CA (Central America) governments to change.
    3a. Be business friendly.
    3b. Be union friendly.
    3c. Establish safety nets.
    3d. Mandatory school attendance.
    3e. Change real estate to freehold.
    3f. State sponsored birth control.. and other things to change the legal and cultural position from a Spainish/Catholic base to a Northern European  based culture and legal system.
    Would it be easy? No. But if we don't the long term results will give us a country much like Mexico.... I guess if you are in the ruling class that doesn't bother you.
    But I'm too much of a social liberal for it to suit me.


    Parent
    I gave you mine. (1.00 / 0) (#125)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 03:32:31 PM EST
    I consistently argue for the rational reform of immigration law. Look at the suggestions found in the thread's lead for some basic, good ideas.

    Forget the NYT. Let's hear some of your very own.

    And no place in your suggestions will you say close the border and get control of the situation.

     

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#128)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 04:13:13 PM EST
    PPJ, you retyped the same tired, offensive stuff. You make the same ridiculous claims and make the same foolish pronouncement on postcolonial history. Impressive. (Note to PPJ, they're not "anchor babies," they're US citizens.)

    Give it a rest, PPJ, you lost the argument because as the thread's lead shows, there are many ways forward that aren't based on fear, xenophobia, or lies. Stop offering that unhappy trifecta if you want to actually have a conversation.

    Otherwise, go cry to your buds at Gates of Vienna and Powerlies about how the mean liberals treat you.

    Parent

    And you can think (1.00 / 1) (#129)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 05:53:51 PM EST
    of nothing but open borders.

    Tell me. Why do people leave their friends and families and become illegal aliens??

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??

    Parent

    No one does. (5.00 / 1) (#147)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 01:34:26 PM EST
    Though some become "Undocumented residents", which there is nothing "illegal" or "criminal" about,  and referring to them as "illegal" or "criminal" is simply a dishonest attempt at demonizing them.

    Myself, I prefer to be honest in my demonizing of wingers. They are dishonest and not worth "debating" with, since their views are not just "another point of view as valid as any other" to be debated, but are sick mindsets to be eliminated, while holders of those "views" are to be marginalized out of political existence.

    Tell me. Why do people leave honesty behind and become people like you, ppj?

    Parent

    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#148)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 02:40:32 PM EST
    If they aren't here illegally, why does ICE deport'em??

    You are funny, edgey. You can't even put up a decent strawman.

    hehe

    Parent

    You'l have to ask ICE. (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:15:19 PM EST
    Now, your answer to my last question is...?

    (not that I expect you to asnswer it)

    Parent

    But... but... (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:21:59 PM EST
    He seems to have a bottomless well of "pseudo-logic", no? ;-)

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#154)
    by squeaky on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:28:53 PM EST
    b
    o
    t
    t
    o
    m
    l
    e
    s
    s
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    Parent
    I don't know though, Squeaky, Heh! (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:51:51 PM EST
    We'll get to the bottom of this one day... I think. ;-)

    He'll be the last Coulternating Cotton Dandy Condilyzing Demagogarrhea spreading man  standing...

    A real "George Chuvalo":

    A comment thread denizen who just won't quit. Nobody could knock George Chuvalo down. He just kept smashing the other guy in the fists with his face until the fight was over.


    Parent
    He's just projecting when he says that... (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 04:40:32 PM EST
    As with everything else he accuses people of...

    Parent
    Well, since those issues are ppj's (none / 0) (#121)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 11:34:40 AM EST
    I'll let him respond.

    Parent
    About as wrong as wrong can be (1.00 / 2) (#1)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 12:51:30 PM EST
    At some point it must address the 12 million undocumented, who cannot be deported en masse.

    Actually the first issue isn't deporting 12 million people. It is stopping the continual massive influx of new illegals. That can be done by strict enforcement of the borders by the National Guard and all law enforcement agencies arresting and immediatelydeporting the ones caught.

    As a secondary measure, those employing illegal aliens should be severely sanctioned with jail time and fines.

    Nor can the government purge workplaces of illegal workers without doing vast damage to the economy.

    Wrong. The jobs do not exist because of the availabiliy of illegal aliens, they exist because there is a market for the product the companies produce. If an illegal alien is deported, a legal worker will take the job.

    Simply put, the illegal aliens take jobs. They don't create them and they don't bring them with them. They contribute nothing to the economy. Plus
    every penny spent on any service to illegal aliens is a 100% loss.

    It may be that some companies will have to start paying decent wages and benefits as well as providing safe working conditions. And what in the world can anyone claiming to be a Liberal find wrong with that?

    Once residing in this country, our immigrant workers are entitled to recognition and the right to living wages, safe working conditions and other worker  protections.

    What that means is "open borders." With that comes the fact that citizenship means nothing. If you say that everyone is an American Citizen then no one is an American Citizen.

    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Dec 30, 2007 at 11:31:11 PM EST
    The undocumented workers are doing jobs that used to be done by convicts, until that was deemed slavery and stopped.

    Oh, really?? All our farm workers were convicts?? Someone forgot to tell my family.

    All the meat packers, construction workers, landscape workers, hotel workers, waiters, bus boys, etc, etc.... They were all convicts??? No one told me because I worked all of those except meat packers....

    And I love this.

    but they do have right not to be abused, shot, or enslaved.

    Wow. Does this mean you are now ready to join me in my call to close the borders and force Mexico, and other governments, to fix their problems??

    Gosh. I am surprised. Really. I mean it... I didn't think you were smart enough to see what was causing the problem.

    Congrats,

    Parent

    you don't get it (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Jen M on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:40:58 AM EST
    you never will

    You even QUOTED the phrase which grantees no one will hear anything else you say about this.

    We aren't talking about people.

    This excludes you entirely from the disscussion.

    We are talking about people, you aren't.  Two separate discussions, yours is with yourself and yourself alone.

    WE are talking about people. You are blathering on about something else, and pretending your question hasn't been answered. (or, you know, it was too subtle for you)

    Parent

    You just don't understand (1.00 / 1) (#23)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 09:52:08 PM EST
    We aren't talking about "people." We are talking about a group of people aka known as illegal aliens..

    We could say the same about professional baseball players accused of using steroids...

    It is necessary in this life to define the subject or you will wander endlessly in the forest of idon'tknowwhati'mtalking about.

    If you think I will join you in your  willful ignorance you are  wrong.

    BTW - I note you don't even try to refute my point. This is obviously because you recognize the accuracy and truthfulness of it.

    Parent

    whatever (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Jen M on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:07:28 PM EST
    hehe (none / 0) (#28)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 09:14:57 AM EST
    Since you can't prove my point wrong, you slink off.

    Figures.

    Parent

    more like (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by Jen M on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 10:39:22 AM EST
    no one gives a flying hoot about answreing you.

    Not after the above.

    Why bother when you will not read, ignore, or forget it.

    You aren't our professor.

    Parent

    Nope (1.00 / 0) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 01:50:00 PM EST
    Nope. If could handle the question and prove me wrong you would be chomping on the bit, slobbering on the reins and roaring.

    But since you can't you make nutso claims that illegal aliens aren't illegal aliens.... and because I call them that, you won't answer.... why?? Your feelings are hurt??? For who?? The illegal aliens??

    hehehe

    Parent

    uh huh (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Jen M on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 02:43:30 PM EST
    Whatever

    Parent
    I accept your admission of defeat. (1.00 / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:20:13 PM EST
    whatever (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by Jen M on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 04:52:12 PM EST
    Even Edgar Allen (1.00 / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:36:39 PM EST
    Poe..... would know that making PC charges against calm and reasonable points is the height of well...
    shall we just say I understand your "never more."

    If you can compete, you shouldn't play.

    hehe

    Parent

    hehe (1.00 / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 01, 2008 at 07:37:55 PM EST
    and I can not type..

    That is "if you can not compete, you shouldn't play."

    Parent

    Your turm (1.00 / 1) (#24)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Dec 31, 2007 at 10:00:36 PM EST
    Sigh.....

    Could any of you people (hehehe) refute my claim rather than simmering over my describing illegal aliens as illegal aliens???

    Tell you what. You can call them Joe, Moe, or anything you want as long as you answer my question.

    How about.. "People from outside the US who have no legal documentation to be in the country..."

    Now. Refute my point that they contribute NOTHING to the economy.

    BTW - What is it about me not caring what you, Jen, tnthorpe, squeaky, edger, etc.... think about me??? I wouldn't walk across the street to meet you. I am a ROF!. I do hope you are employed and paying into Social Security and Medicare.... None of which you are likely to get a dime back from because of the Left's opposition to reforming it and the huge influx of illegal aliens who will getting back billions more than they paid in.

    Parent

    I note (1.00 / 1) (#75)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:12:45 PM EST
    that none of you has made any suggestions on how to solve the problem.

    I did.

    That tells me that:

    a. You are just for open borders and don't care.

    b. Or, you can't find another solution.

    Your turn.

    can't you read? (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:18:42 PM EST
    Most everyone else here looks at the thread lead and sees good suggestions for a way forward.

    A way closed to you because you foment intolerance with your repeated inanities.

    Read a friggin' econ textbook.

    Move on from your right-wing memes to some serious intellection.

    Your turn.

    Parent

    hehe (1.00 / 1) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 08:47:56 AM EST
    Tell us.

    How many jobs did the illegal aliens bring with them when they illegally entered the country??

    Parent

    when walk out my door (5.00 / 1) (#117)
    by Jen M on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 10:24:53 AM EST
    there are stores, restaurants, street vendors

    not just food stores either (even large grocery stores) but car repair, tires, pharmacies, furniture, general videoo, clothing and thats just my neighborhood. They aren't chain. They are Mami and Papi. (or vietnamese, or african.)

    They may not be owned by immigrants who are here illegally, but they certainly employ many many people>

    The catering from the home types and the street vendors... who knows.

    Visit a city sometime.

    Parent

    If the owners are illegal aliens (1.00 / 1) (#131)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 06:04:24 PM EST
    then they have taken an opportunity to be owners from a legal US owner.

    The simple fact is this. It is the presence of the illegal alien that removes the opportunity from the legal US worker/owner.

    Parent

    LOL (5.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Jen M on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 06:46:33 PM EST
    see?

    why answer your questions? It aint worth it. You simply ignore it. If you eve read it.

    Nowamai is right.

    Shill.

    Parent

    sigh (1.00 / 1) (#136)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 08:52:11 PM EST
    They may not be owned by immigrants who are here illegally, but they certainly employ many many people>

    The issue isn't immigrants who are not here illegally, but illegal aliens.

    Parent

    I'm so terribly sorry (none / 0) (#172)
    by Jen M on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:03:38 PM EST
    can you say "implication"

    I thought not.

    Please, how simple must I make this?

    May or may NOT

    is there a simpler way to put that?

    Did you not understand?

    Please, what part of May or may NOT is so difficult?

    Parent

    how many jobs (5.00 / 2) (#119)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 10:42:54 AM EST
    does a baby bring into the world with it when it is born?

    OMG, babies are a drain on the economy.

    Quick PPJ, alert the media.

    Parent

    Your argument remains the same. (1.00 / 1) (#137)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 09:04:24 PM EST
    If someone comes into the country and takes a job from a legal US worker, then they have added nothing to the economy. That they spend money in rent, clothing and on "babies" is not in dispute. The problem is that the money they spend would be spent by a legal US worker if the illegal alien was not  here.

    The premise you have is that by their presence illegal aliens are good for the economy. I have shown you time and again that this false.

    BTW - This may come as a shock to you, but the more developed countries have a much lower birth rate than the undeveloped countries. Especially countries that were settled/possessed by a Catholic culture.

    See birth control. Church against, etc.. Also see "children as family labor.. old age protection..


    Parent

    Jeez (5.00 / 2) (#139)
    by tnthorpe on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 02:17:22 AM EST
    shift the goalposts, recant, whatever.

    You're clearly delirious now, so sit down and make yourself some tea.

    But thanks for the chuckle.

    Parent

    and thank you for (1.00 / 1) (#140)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 09:34:20 AM EST
    showing us that you have no interest in the welfare of the legal US worker, or the illegal alien.  I say this based on your lack of support for reforms in Mexico/other countries and your desire to continue to let illegal aliens into the country.

    Parent
    now who's accusing people (5.00 / 2) (#141)
    by Jen M on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 10:22:41 AM EST
    of positions they don't hold?

    Parent
    Catch a clue (1.00 / 1) (#144)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 12:06:54 PM EST
    I documented my claim.

    Do you understand doing that??

    Parent

    You are the only one alowed to (5.00 / 2) (#146)
    by Jen M on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 01:11:18 PM EST
    falsely accuse, got it.

    Parent
    YOu Are the Problem (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:19:08 PM EST
    squeak (1.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:49:45 PM EST
    exits stage left stomping feet..

    hehe

    Parent

    WTF (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 04:47:57 PM EST
    Maybe I am stomping off in your mind, which is very telling. It is more than clear that you love to get people mad at you, which is what a whipping boy does best.

    Parent
    Squeaky is mad. (none / 0) (#113)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 08:55:53 AM EST
    Look squeak. I laid out some very basic facts regarding illegal aliens and the fact that they do not contribute additional anything to the economy because the jobs they take would have been taken by legal workers.

    I then noted the problem and made a lengthy comment on some solutions that would help everyone, especially the illegals.

    All you can do is spew. There's an old saying that covers this.

    Squeak. Lead, follow or get out of the way.

    Parent

    What you think are facts (5.00 / 2) (#142)
    by Jen M on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 10:28:30 AM EST
    in no way resemble the reality I have lived in for the over twenty years since the army sent me here.

    You simply state things I know to be untrue by simply looking around me when I am out and about and shopping and doing other things.

    I'll take my eyes and ears over your unproved unbacked statements any day.

    Parent

    Your Economic (none / 0) (#127)
    by squeaky on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 04:03:54 PM EST
    Drivel amounts to nothing. You have not shown that the jobs taken by undocumented workers would be filled by Americans or documented workers. Since that is your only point, prove it.

    Parent
    You have zero common sense. (none / 0) (#130)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 06:01:11 PM EST
    Jobs exist only because an employer wants something done. They are not abstract creations of some "report."

    If an illegal alien is not available, a legal US worker will take the job at some price and under some conditions.

    Parent

    BS (none / 0) (#132)
    by squeaky on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 06:07:00 PM EST
    The pool of US workers who have not graduated HS has been shrinking an is low. Those are the jobs that we are talking about. There is far more demand for those jobs than there are native workers.

    Why would someone hire a undocumented worker if there were plenty of Americans willing to take the jobs?

    Parent

    Oh, really??? (none / 0) (#145)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 12:20:57 PM EST
    So now illegal aliens only take jobs that legal US workers won't have??

    So you believe that we must import an underclass of people from Mexico/other countries that will mow your grass on the cheap?? What's a matter?? You too good to sweat a little bit?

    Let me give you another lesson in economics. The influx has destroyed the good paying jobs in the meat packing industry... in the construction industry... in the service industry overall by flooding the marketplace with people who will work at very low wages and in very bad unsafe conditions.

    Get rid of the illegal aliens and the wages will rise and the working conditions/benefits will improve.

    Not only do they take jobs, but they destroy the economies of locations by depressing the wages of everyone.

    Squeak. Once again try to concentrate and understand this. Labor is a commodity. When a commodity is plentiful the price is low. When a commodity is scarce, the price rises.

    Parent

    More Ignorant BS via ppj (none / 0) (#149)
    by squeaky on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 03:10:26 PM EST
     Worker have been exploited and will continue to be exploited. It doesn't matter whether they are natives or foreign. And you have proven over and over that you could care less about workers well being or working conditions, particularly if they are Mexican.

    As for your fantasy that the immigrants are to blame for the poor conditions and wages in the current meatpacking industry it reveals your overactive imagination and underactive intelligence.

    he 1980s saw the destruction of good jobs in the meatpacking industry.19 Many companies relocated from decades-old, multi-story urban factories to single-floor layouts in rural areas closer to cattle and hog feedlots. New companies became industry powerhouses, especially Iowa Beef Processors (IBP). IBP overtook old-line producers by automating more of the process, squeezing skills out of the job. IBP reduced every stage in the process to mindless, repetitive cutting with the same hand and arm motion in what the industry calls a disassembly-line process. IBP and its copycat producers stepped up line speed and cut wages to levels far underneath union-negotiated standards. In 1983, meatpacking workers' pay fell below the average U.S. manufacturing wage for the first time. Since then, the decline has accelerated--15 percent lower in 1985, 18 percent lower in 1990, 24 percent lower in 2002.20

    link

    The story has not changed. Big money will find a way to produce for less and it is up to compassionate activists to keep them in check by fighting for government regulation of unfair and unsafe labor practices.

    As for your concerns about all the poor americans who are losing out to undocumented workers the obvious solution is to make the undocumented workers documented.

    And sorry I will not mow your lawn because it is no worth it for me, but I can find some nice Mexicans who will do it for you at $15/ hr.

    Parent

    Have you ever had a real non-government job (none / 0) (#167)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 09:19:26 AM EST
     
    IBP and its copycat producers stepped up line speed and cut wages to levels far underneath union-negotiated standards.

    How dumb can you be??

    Without replacement workers, how could they have done the above.

    It was the use of illegal aliens as strike  breakers.

    You fail again to have the vaguest concept of the real world.

    Parent

    BS PPJ (none / 0) (#168)
    by squeaky on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 10:02:05 AM EST
    Got some data? In any case the workers pay was reduced because it became unskilled factory line work, due t automation, and the unions were busted.

    Parent
    heh (1.00 / 1) (#157)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 05:53:56 PM EST
    hehe

    Did I miss'em a question from the King of Attacks, aka edger??? Poor baby......He's all bothered because I keep pointing out his total lack of logic..

    Case in point..ICE deports people because they are legally in the country????? I mean that is your claim... Kinda stupid don't you think???

    Nowonami - You mean I ignored the queen of whine??? Gee so sorry. Really... Gimme another chance. Please. Honest. Just quote the comment.. I wouldn't want to miss any of your pearls of wisdom....

    Squeak - What can I say about you that you haven't said yourself??

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM
    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

    Facts be facts folks. They are aliens and they are illegally in the country. Why?? Because they have no documents. To repeat because I know you are slow. They be illegal aliens.

    And since they bring nothing into the country, except their labor, they take jobs that legal US workers could do. So any money they spend is a replacement for the dollars that legal US workers would have spent. So the net gain is ZERO. They contribute nothing... nothing at all to the economy... And all money spent on them is a net loss that is paid for by the legal US workers.

    If you don't want to dispute the point, no one is making you. So quit complaining when the facts won't vanish just because you have some incredibly dumb belief that our borders should be open to any and all who want to come here.


    Last Gasps (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by squeaky on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 06:31:24 PM EST
    Whenever ppj takes on the role of Rove's whipping boy he is signaling defeat. Looks like you have finally noticed that one is convinced by your idiotic regurgitations of Tancredo swill.

    Parent
    Take your meds, ppj.... (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 07:22:05 PM EST
    You're losing it, buddy. And you need what little you have left! ;-)

    Parent
    Squeak and edgey slink off into (1.00 / 1) (#160)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 09:37:26 PM EST
    cyberspace... while muttering inane comments.

    Oh well boys, that's what you do when you can't win.

    You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.

    Tata!! and Tehe!!

    hahahahahaha (5.00 / 1) (#161)
    by squeaky on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 09:44:27 PM EST
    ppj says it is so then you know it is a lie.

    Parent
    Squeak (1.00 / 1) (#165)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 08:26:21 AM EST
    Speaking of having no respect for the truth.

    Posted by Squeaky at September 19, 2005 11:19 PM
    Rove never needed proof for his smear machine, why should I.

    hehe

    Parent

    What Typical Swill (5.00 / 1) (#169)
    by squeaky on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 10:05:26 AM EST
    From Rove's self appointed whipping boy. The only thing you have in common with Rove is your dishonesty. Good thing your intelligence is a fraction of his even if you are from the same gene pool.  

    Parent
    The bottomless well of idiocy (none / 0) (#175)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 01:37:37 PM EST
    that you've posted in this thread is all the "proof" needed by anyone who reads it. If they can make it through it all before falling off their chairs in fits of laughter, ppj....

    Why do keep doing this to yourself?

    Parent

    Why do you do this to yourself? (none / 0) (#162)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 10:18:09 PM EST
    Too Good For ppj (5.00 / 1) (#163)
    by squeaky on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 10:44:01 PM EST
    Crumb's cartoon character is way to self reflective to compare to ppj.  IMO it is an insult to Crumb.  ppj is two dimensional and predictable where Crumb is a great artist.

    Parent
    Heh! (5.00 / 1) (#164)
    by Edger on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 10:48:16 PM EST
    Hmmm. Good point!

    Parent
    Believe it or not folks (1.00 / 0) (#166)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 09:10:49 AM EST
    This thread was about illegal aliens. In it I have refuted the claim that illegal aliens contribute to the economy by noting that an illegal alien only takes a job that would have been filled by a legal US worker. Thus all money earned by the illegal alien is not new, merely a replacement.

    I further noted that illegal aliens are called illegal aliens because that is a descriptive term, just as "professional baseball player" is a descriptive term.

    I also provided a rather lengthy list of suggestions on how to solve the problem. Among them I suggested we dry up the job market by severe penalties against employers, closing the border and.....gasp!!!... insisting that the countries exporting people, Mexico and the Central America countries in particular as well as China and SE Asia in general, be pressured to change their government/society/culture. Thus keeping their citizens at home with a better standard of living.

    Why they want to keep flooding the job market with illegal aliens, thus driving down the price of all labor and thus hurting their fellow citizens and those legally in the country, I do not know.

    To my reasoned argument no one has proven me wrong. Instead they have resorted to their standard way of doing business. When beaten they launch personal attacks thinking that will run the winner off.

    But, since I do care for them, and don't care what their opinion is that doesn't work for me.

    And they denigrate themselves when they do far more than they hurt me.

    Hahahahahaha (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by squeaky on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 10:13:55 AM EST
    I have refuted the claim that illegal aliens contribute to the economy by noting that an illegal alien only takes a job that would have been filled by a legal US worker. Thus all money earned by the illegal alien is not new, merely a replacement.

    You have convinced no one here of your BS bedwetter claim. Undocumented workers are not a problem for he American economy. They are easily absorbed and provide a net plus, as Sarc, thhorpe, edger, jen, et al have shown.
    Just because you are acting like chicken little yammering on about the imminent destruction of western civilization, doesn't make it so.


    Parent

    Wrong as ususal (1.00 / 1) (#174)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:48:28 PM EST
    Undocumented workers are not a problem for he American economy.

    Tell that to the thousands of legal construction workers that were displaced by illegal aliens in NO during the Katrina cleanup.

    Squeak, have you ever had a real job? You must be a government employee of some sort.

    BTW - I see you are talking about bedwetting again?

    What's a matter? Didn't the counseling help?

    hehe


    Parent

    Hahhahahaha (5.00 / 1) (#176)
    by squeaky on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 05:02:31 PM EST
    Lou Dobbs at lonewacko's site. hahahahahahahaha


    Parent
    About that logic... (5.00 / 2) (#171)
    by roy on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:48:20 AM EST
    I have refuted the claim that illegal aliens contribute to the economy by noting that an illegal alien only takes a job that would have been filled by a legal US worker. Thus all money earned by the illegal alien is not new, merely a replacement.

    Assuming your argument is sound...

    Consider citizens who move between states.  I moved from Texas to Oregon.  I took a job here.  If I hadn't taken it, someone else would have.  Thus I have contributed nothing to Oregon's economy.

    And consider citizens who commute from the suburbs to the big cities.  If they didn't take those jobs in the cities, someone else would, thus they contribute nothing.

    And consider people who are born and, 16+ years later, start working.  Whatever jobs they take would have been taken by someone else, thus they contribute nothing.

    Therefore, nobody contributes anything to the economy, and the economy must still be in its original state: non-existant.  See "reductio ad absurdum".

    The problem is that you're looking at the wrong figure.  Workers -- citizens or aliens, legal or illegal -- don't grow the economy by making money, they grow it by doing work.  We might measure their contribution by counting how much money they make, but only because it's a convenient number to get at and use as a proxy for the work done.  

    You can see this if you consider somebody who gets a raise.  Steve makes 50 widgets in a week and gets paid $50.  Then he gets a raise due to seniority.  The next week, he makes 50 widgets and gets paid $60.  Did he grow the economy any more the second week?

    So you have to consider that illegal aliens who work draw wages AND do labor.

    It's true that the citizen who would otherwise do that job is not drawing those particular wages, but he hasn't used up his labor either, so he's available to do some other job.

    Thus illegal aliens can contribute to the US economy in exactly the same way I contribute to the Oregon economy, the same way commuters from Newark contribute to the New York City economy, and the same way newborns will contribute to the economy when they grow up.

    Parent

    roy (1.00 / 1) (#173)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 12:40:07 PM EST
    How have you been? Hope you haven't started growing moss yet. It can be difficult to get off your roof....and body. ;-)


    It's true that the citizen who would otherwise do that job is not drawing those particular wages, but he hasn't used up his labor either, so he's available to do some other job.

    The point is that the illegal alien is taking wages that would otherwise be earned by legal US workers.

    Consider this. John and Jose, an illegal alien, both see an ad for a job. Both hurry to the job and John is hired. A week later the owner figures out that Jose will work in less safe conditions, this saving him money,and fires John and replaces him with Jose.

    John's wages, of say $320.00 have been replaced with Jose wages of $320.00 There has been no increase in the money put into the economy.

    And yes, John, when fired, is available to do some other job. However, if he had been kept in his old job, not displaced by the illegal alien, the next job would have been taken by a legal US citizen.

    The next week, he makes 50 widgets and gets paid $60.  Did he grow the economy any more the second week?

    Yes he did because he has an increase of $10.00 to put into the economy. On a macro level, wage growth is an important indicator of economy.

    Thus illegal aliens can contribute to the US economy in exactly the same way I contribute to the Oregon economy,

    I haven't disputed that the illegal aliens spend money in the country. My point is that they contribute no additional dollars. The total is the same. For every job gained by an illegal alien, one job is lost by a legal US citizen.

    You are a citizen of the US, and that is the question.
    Movement of legal workers between states are not the same as illegal workers coming in.

    If you get a chance, come over for a visit and we can bang this around after this thread is shut down.

    Parent

    Still getting it wrong (none / 0) (#200)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 04:15:18 PM EST
    No, PPJ, you misstate things once again.

    I have shown your claims to be false over and over. I have shown your grasp of economic reality to be negligible. I have shown your hyperbole to be the racially offensive right-wing cant that it is.

    I have shown and other have shown that you

    LOST THE ARGUMENT.

    As you would say, facts be facts.

    Now, stop calling new born US citizens "anchor babies" and undocumented workers illegal aliens and accusing Hispanic/Catholic of failure when it's your right wingers in the White House and their Dem enablers who need to be called to account if you want to be part of the real conversation.

    Otherwise, thanks for chuckles.

    Parent

    hehe I thought Curly and Moe (1.00 / 1) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 08:12:37 PM EST
    would get a laugh out of that one...

    Enjoy. The lonewacko may be alone and perhaps he is wacko.

    But his source is Lou Dobbs.

    Keep grinning while this problem elects a Repub Pres and we don't NHC solved and we don't get the drug problem solved and we don't get gay rights solved.

    BTW - Here is the Washington Post who writes:

    What's more, according to Pew, of the total Hispanic immigrants working in construction last year, nearly two-thirds were "unauthorized.'' Labor specialists argue that these "unauthorized'' -- undocumented or illegal -- immigrants are the very ones willing to work for less than prevailing wages and worse than average conditions, particularly if they are not asked for documentation.

    Link

    Notice how that destroys your claims that construction jobs and pay haven't been destroyed by the influx of illegal aliens.

    You guys are so easy...

    Lu Dobbs IS the other lone wacko, ppj (5.00 / 1) (#178)
    by Edger on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 08:45:16 PM EST
    after you and any other source you ever quote from. What's your problem today?

    A$$rocket not agreeing with you? Life is tough....

    Parent

    hehehe (2.00 / 1) (#179)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 10:25:28 PM EST
    And so is the WP and the Pew folks..

    You are sooooooo funny. I give you a link that I know you will attack, and you attack.

    I give you another link, a national link from a Liberal paper, and you attack.

    Face it, edger. You are an open borders supporter. The news is out. You might as well quit denying it.

    Next time I want to demonstrate the effect of "Pavlov's Dog" I'll snooker you again. It is just so easy,

    Tehe

    Parent

    Don't post idiocy, ppj. (5.00 / 1) (#182)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 03:30:46 AM EST
    Why would I deny something I've never denied before?

    I asked you earlier: Why do people leave honesty behind and become people like you, ppj?

    You had no answer... so the obvious one is that you do it just to be a troll.

    Wouldn't it be nice to have more respect for yourself than that, ppj? Or have you given up on yourself? As everyone else has....

    Parent

    In case you missed this. (1.00 / 1) (#180)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 10:27:06 PM EST
    Notice how that (WP article) destroys your claims that construction jobs and pay haven't been destroyed by the influx of illegal aliens.

    What say you now, edgey??

    Parent

    They're in your closet, under your bed, (5.00 / 1) (#183)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:13:11 AM EST
    inside the walls, on the roof... they've got you surrounded and on the run, ppj. There's nowhere to hide. They're going to utterly destroy your way of life... sorry, I mean death. And I'll do everything I can do to help them.

    As will 95% of the country.

    The real America, ppj, is not the terrified cowering bedwetting hatefilled country you wish it was.

    Parent

    PPJ Misrepresenting The Facst (5.00 / 1) (#181)
    by squeaky on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 11:39:56 PM EST
    Once again. Undocumented workers may be taking many construction jobs but is has not led to an any increase in unemployment rates among native born or documented workers. IOW you are FOS as usual.

    From your pew report:

    Rapid increases in the foreign-born population at the state level are not associated
    with negative effects on the employment of native-born workers, according to a
    study by the Pew Hispanic Center that examines data during the boom years of
    the 1990s and the downturn and recovery since 2000.

    Pew Hispanic Center

    No employment slowdown in 2006
    It is notable that the growth in construction employment in 2006 more than kept pace with the increases in 2005.  For all workers, construction employment increased 443,000, or 4.1%, in 2005 and 559,000, or 5%, in 2006 (Table 2). For Latino workers, employment in the industry increased 277,000 (12.1%) in 2005 and 372,000 (14.5%) in 2006. Latinos, who accounted for 62.4% of the growth in industry employment in 2005, accounted for 66.5% of the growth in 2006.
    Among foreign-born Latinos, employment in construction increased by 335,000, or 17.5%, in 2006. That was similar to the situation in 2005, when the employment of foreign-born Latinos increased 262,000, or 15.9%. Overall, there
    are no signs of a slowdown in construction sector employment in the past year. There are also no indications that the role of Hispanic workers in the industry might be diminishing.  

    Pew Hispanic Center

    Parent

    You couldn't carry logic in a bucket (1.00 / 1) (#184)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 07:33:07 AM EST
    Once again. Undocumented workers may be taking many construction jobs but is has not led to an any increase in unemployment rates among native born or documented workers. IOW you are FOS as usual.

    Oh, really?? Illegal aliens are taking many jobs but that has had no negative impact on legal workers??

    Good Lord. First you tell me that ICE is deporting people who have broken no laws and now this?

    hehe

    Dishonest To The Core (5.00 / 1) (#186)
    by squeaky on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 12:19:33 PM EST
    You link to a immigrant rights advocate taking her words out of context regarding data from the Pew Hispanic Center hoping to show that undocumented workers are stealing native jobs.

    Clearly the Pew Hispanic Center disputes your misleading drivel.

    I live in NYC, which has one of the largest population of undocumented workers in the construction business. All the native trades people are full to the brim with work. Getting a contractor can take months and if the job is not big enough forget it.

    Believe me, if the undocumented were stealing jobs there would be h*ll to pay as they are near the bottom of society. Work is abundant, if anything there is a scarcity of documented/native workers. No one is stealing jobs.

    YOu are FOS and living in a GOP designed proto fascist fantasy world. It is disgusting that instead of arguing for better working conditions for those exploited you are lobbying to incarcerate them, make them felons and deport them.

    All so that your right wing leaders can amass more power by stirring up their base through fearmongering tactics that have zero basis in reality.

    Parent

    Spewing beomes you (1.00 / 1) (#187)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 01:09:39 PM EST
    Look, your very own source says illegal aliens are taking jobs..... yet you want to claim that is not impacting legal US workers...

    That squeak, is horse hockey.

    What do you think is happening in the home building industry??

    Do you even read the news? Obviously you don't.

    Parent

    Outright Lies (5.00 / 1) (#193)
    by squeaky on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 06:39:57 PM EST
    You are now shamelessly lying.

    Look, your very own source says illegal aliens are taking jobs.....

    lie#1: It is your source not mine.

    lie#2:Taking jobs? Nowhere does the pew study say that undocumented workers are taking jobs away from natives.

    Nowhere.

    The pew center states the opposite:

    Rapid increases in the foreign-born population at the state level are not associated with negative effects on the employment of native-born workers, according to a study by the Pew Hispanic Center that examines data during the boom years of the 1990s and the downturn and recovery since 2000.


    Parent
    btw Do you understand (1.00 / 1) (#188)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 01:12:03 PM EST
    that if there weren't all the illegals working for substandard wages legal workers would be flocking to get into the trades???

    No, you don't because you have never had a job in industry...

    Parent

    Politics is a sewer ppj, and you are the effluent (5.00 / 1) (#189)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 04:01:34 PM EST
    He doesn't believe his swill either. (5.00 / 1) (#191)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 05:18:35 PM EST
    And he also doesn't care if he just makes sh*t up or blatantly lies. Truth is irrelevant to his purpose.

    This is not a discussion forum for him. It's a video game to him to see who can "best the opposing player".

    IOW, he's only here to waste other peoples time, and to try to drive them mad so he can sit back and giggle and drool uncontrollably at he fact that he's able to cause someone to react to him.

    Dishonesty is a tool he uses. The thing is, he can't do it if people don't take his bait. He's not capable of honest discourse so he can't get any attention with it. All he wants is attention... to force a response. Any kind of response will do. Attacks are the best kind of response from his twisted perspective.

    He's here to be a complete waste of time. Nothing more.... That he is successful at. What an achievement, huh?

    Parent

    It's pretty sad (none / 0) (#194)
    by Edger on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 07:12:20 PM EST
    for a so called "grown man" to do, isn't it? Most people would have more respect for themselves than ppj does....

    Parent
    More nonsense (1.00 / 1) (#195)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 10:54:09 PM EST
    I mean if he can make up imaginary Americans losing out on jobs that Americans don't do,

    What jobs are you speaking of??

    Americans don't work in construction? Agriculture?

    Your ignorance is astounding.

    I bet you think cows lay milk cartoons and chickens have thighs, legs and breasts only.

    Parent

    Of course it was my source (1.00 / 1) (#196)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 11:20:38 PM EST
    which you grasped and made your own.

    Now live with it.

    Only 15% of native-born workers resided in states where
    rapid growth in the foreign-born population was associated with negative
    outcomes for the native born.
    The remaining 60% of native-born workers lived in
    states where the growth in the foreign-born population was below average, but
    those native workers did not consistently experience favorable employment
    outcomes.

    What that means is that legal US workers lost jobs to illegal aliens.

    BTW - Thank for taking the bait.

    Dishonest To The Core (5.00 / 1) (#197)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 12:53:56 AM EST
    Took your bait? First of all you got the pew link from me. Second of all you hacked out two sentences from a 56 page report in order to willfully misrepresent the findings and conclusion of the report.  

    How do you live with yourself.

    Your quote (italics), in context:

    Rapid increases in the foreign-born population at the state level are not associated with negative effects on the employment of native-born workers, according to a study by the Pew Hispanic Center that examined data from both the boom years of the 1990s and the period of recession and gradual recovery after 2000. An analysis of the relationship between growth in the foreign-born population and employment outcomes of native-born workers revealed wide variations and no consistent pattern across the 50 states and the District of Columbia. Nearly 25% of native-born workers lived in states where rapid growth in the foreign-born population between 1990 and 2000 was associated with favorable outcomes for the native born in 2000.

    Only 15% of native-born workers resided in states where rapid growth in the foreign-born population was associated with negative outcomes for the native born. The remaining 60% of native-born workers lived in states where the growth in the foreign-born population was below average, but those native workers did not consistently experience favorable employment outcomes.
    Similar results emerged from the analysis for the 2000 to 2004 time period. The size of the foreign-born workforce is also unrelated to the employment prospects for native workers. The relative youth and low levels of education among foreign workers appear to have no bearing on the employment outcomes of native workers of similar schooling and age.

    What a shoddy deception. How can you believe that anyone would be as lazy as you and not check the link.

    The report says over and over that no correlation was found

    It concludes:

    The analysis shows that the employment prospects for native-born workers do not appear to be related to the growth of the foreign-born population.

    Employment outcomes for native-born workers
    were assessed using three indicators--the employment rate, the labor force participation rate, and the unemployment rate. Regardless of the indicator used, when the employment outcome of the native-born population was measured
    against the percent change of the foreign-born population in each state, no constant pattern emerged.

    Pew Report (PDF)

    Parent

    McCarthy Is (5.00 / 1) (#203)
    by squeaky on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 05:51:09 PM EST
    SOmeone that he holds dear. Just as he thinks the world of Rove.

    Parent
    Oh I see the (1.00 / 1) (#198)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 12:51:39 PM EST
    problem. You are incapable of logical thought.

    Simpler.

    The jobs disappeared as the illegals arrived....

    Duhhhhhhhhh.

    BTW - Do you think something (1.00 / 0) (#199)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jan 08, 2008 at 12:55:32 PM EST
    named the Pew Hispanic Center is going to say illegal aliens are hurting the economy and should be deported??

    That they said what they said is a major, major, major admission on their part.

    tehe

    squeak, I gotta laugh at you. (1.00 / 1) (#204)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 06:34:36 PM EST
    You have admitted, in writing, two times that you do don't need the truth, yet you call others liars.

    You do that, of course, because you are on the net. I am sure you don't act like that in your personal life. But hey, maybe you do. In fact, you probably do.

    Anyway, you are wrong. That's not what they said. Can you not read??

    From the link.

    What's more, according to Pew, of the total Hispanic immigrants working in construction last year, nearly two-thirds were "unauthorized.'' Labor specialists argue that these "unauthorized'' -- undocumented or illegal -- immigrants are the very ones willing to work for less than prevailing wages and worse than average conditions, particularly if they are not asked for documentation.

    Catch a clue and quit making stupid arguments.

    That ls 66% illegal aliens working in construction for less than the prevailing wages and worse than average conditions and you actually can claim they aren't taking jobs from legal US workers??

    Just keep on yacking, squeak. You harm yourself more than I ever could.

    tehe


    YOu Are A Liar (5.00 / 1) (#205)
    by squeaky on Wed Jan 09, 2008 at 10:38:03 PM EST
    Because your claim is that the native workers were displaced because of the foreign workers. That conclusion has no merit. It is just your pathetic attempt at spin,

    The Pew study shows that there is no correlation between foreign worker population and native unemployment.

    Your word games are transparent.

    Parent

    squeak (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 10:47:48 PM EST
    No. No one has proven that illegal aliens contribute any additional dollars to the economy.

    But, if you think they have, provide a copy and link.

    But you won't because you can't.

    Now do stomp your feet and yell.

    Been There (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 12:08:45 AM EST
    Done that. Your dishonesty is relentless.

    Parent
    squeak (1.00 / 1) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:15:15 AM EST
    you would pay money to prove me wrong.

    You just can't, that's all.

    tehe

    Parent

    And You (none / 0) (#67)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:16:35 AM EST
    Prove yourself right.

    Parent
    give it a rest (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 12:35:21 AM EST
    PPJ, you've lost the argument.

    Undocumented workers are important in our economy and as the thread's lead shows, the transition from undocumented to documented could be made if politicians chose to grapple with difficult questions instead of posturing for campaign purposes. Of course, that would mean thinking in more than the typical PPJ soundbite of nonsense, which you demonstrate with your inane repetitions that you will never move one iota beyond.

    Your continued denial of the massive economic contribution of undocumented workers to our economy has convinced nobody of anything other than your shrillness.

    Parent

    Your inabilty to understand basic math (none / 0) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:02:30 AM EST
    is astounding...

    In this country we have X number of jobs. At any given time we have N number of legal workers looking for jobs. When they get that job they contribute Y dollars to the economy.

    Let's say the N legal workers is 100, and the contribution is Y $1000, or $10.00 each.

    Now let's say we add one legal worker who takes a  job. The new Y figure is $1010. (101 x 10)

    Now let's say we add one illegal work instead of the legal. The Y figure remains at $1010. (101 x 10)

    There is no change. The illegal alien has added nothing to the economy that would not have been added if the job had been taken by a legal worker.

    In fact, the illegal worker presents a net loss, because it is very likely that they will send money out of the country to their families.

    And, again, the massive numbers of illegal aliens we have here drives down the cost of labor for legal and illegal aliens alike because labor is a commodity and commodities are always priced on availability. Tomatoes are higher in winter.

    Your arguments are all emotional. They are "good" hardworking "people." The "evil government" won't grant them papers... etc., etc.

    A question. If you made all 13,000,000 million illegal aliens citizens today, how many would come in to the country in 2008 illegally?? 500,000?

    Joe and Jane Six Pack understand that the influx won't stop just because you grant citizenship to the 13,000,000. In fact, they understand that the influx will increase because we have rewarded the past behavior. They would support:

    The way to solve a problem is to break it down to doable actions.

    Problem. We have have a huge influx of illegal aliens who are depressing the wage levels, job market for legal US workers. Plus they are stressing the infrastructure and costing billions in services.

    1. Close the border.

    2. Determine what to do with the 13,000,000 already here.

    2a. Deport all of them. Not feasible.
    2b. Eliminate sanctuary cities, deport those caught.
    2c. Change laws to stop children born to illegals becoming citizens. (Anchor babies)
    2d. Severely punish all employers who hire illegals. (Dry up jobs)
    2e. Provide free transportation and no sanctions for those who ask to be transported home.

    3. Pressure Mexico and CA governments to change.
    3a. Be business friendly.
    3b. Be union friendly.
    3c. Establish safety nets.
    3d. Mandatory school attendance.
    3e. Change real estate to freehold.
    3e. State sponsored birth control.. and other things to change the legal and cultural position from a Spainish/Catholic base to a Northern European  based culture and legal system.

    Would it be easy? No. But if we don't the long term results will give us a country much like Mexico.... I guess if you are in the ruling class that doesn't bother you.

    But I'm too much of a social liberal for it to suit me.

    Parent

    come PPJ (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 01:18:58 PM EST
    surely you don't think more repetition of your bonehead math will persuade anyone? You lost the argument, move on.

    As for your continued closed border fantasy, what a load of #%*@!!!
    As for you deprivation of children of citizenship, what a load of ....

    And 3e is so racist and offensive, you should be ashamed of yourself, but I know you're not.

    If anything, it reveals your so-called argument for what it is, a hateful creed of intolerance wrapped in demagogic platitudes.

    Give it a rest, PPJ, no one is persuaded to jump on your bandwagon. You've lost the argument, accept it like an adult.

    Parent

    3e???? (none / 0) (#72)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:00:55 PM EST
    3e???? You oppose Freehold of property. Perhaps you meant 3f??

    Offensive and racist?? Really? I didn't know that Illegal aliens were a race. Perhaps you can provide some back up to that claim????

    And while you are at it, can you explain why the high failure rate of  providing freedom and opportunity in the countries settled mostly by the Catholic and Spainish based Europeans?? The results speak for themselves.

    You don't know math. You don't know the meaning of words. And you don't even know the history of the countries that are the source of the problem.

    hehe

    Parent

    read your own post (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:15:41 PM EST
    you labelled 3e twice, it's your mistake.

    Like most racists, you feign ignorance, which in your case may well be true. Your posts do have a certain odor of ignorance about them.

    As for your "failure" rate, jeez, world for the day is colonialism. Try googling European Imperialism. Read Frantz Fanon or read Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Read King Leopold's Ghost, but all this is way off topic.

    Stop veering off topic, just admit you lost the argument. You convince nobody with your factless, hate-filled rants, your d.o.a. bullet point silliness, your tedious repetition.

    Read this and know it to be true: YOU LOST THE ARGUMENT

    Parent

    I never claimed to be a typist. (1.00 / 1) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:46:35 PM EST
    Would you like the job? Must be able to make coffee and pick up cleaning.

    And I repeat. I didn't know illegal aliens were a race. Since you claim they are then I think it is your ignorance that is on display.

    But tell me, tnthorpe, why do you and many others on the Left, immediately resort to nasty personal attacks when you can respond to a point?? Do you feel insecure? So insecure that you can't admit to being wrong? Yes, that must be it.

    I say again. Look at the countries settled by, or were possessions of non-English speaking countries. The vast majority of these countries are in trouble today, especially when compared to the ones settled by or were possessions of English speaking countries.

    That's just a fact that relates to the political system of Spain, Portugal, France, Beligum as compared to England and the US. Those countries installed a system of serfs and peons and all rights held by Kings. The English speaking side demanded that the King be held accountable... have you ever heard of the Magna Carta? Our Constitution doesn't define the rights of the citizen, it defines the rights of the government, giving all others to the people.

    Note that part of my solution is for the countries that can not take of their people to fix that. To quit forcing families to be separated. To fix an economic system that favors big landowners...the factory owners...the elite.

    I think fixing the systems that do that is a good thing.

    Don't you? Or do you want them to continue to be forced out of their homes and away from their families to work for low wages in bad conditions just so you don't have to clean your home, look after you children, tend your yard..

    Why do you favor things that result in a permanent
    underclass??


    Parent

    Jeez (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 07:39:00 PM EST
    stop your whining and off topic blather and admit you lost the argument.

    You've persuaded exactly nobody, and frankly your grasp of postcolonial history is risible.

    Undocumented workers contribute to America in important ways culturally and economically, whether you can deal with that fact or not. Your denial of their contribution is rooted in a fairly typical anti-immigrant strain of American thought that has had virulent anti-Catholic and anti-Irish and anti-Pole, -Italian, -Semitic versions through the years. You're simply a revenant of some Victorian xenophobe, with the same tired rants and raves. Eventually, with a great deal of unnecessary drama, things get better, but not because folk like you foment intolerance and divisiveness.

    I welcome people coming here to make their lives better and I know that as a country we can rise to that occasion responsibly, but not because we are afraid, as you are, but because we are strong. Why you fear that is your own issue. Why is fear the only real card you have to play, PPJ? Why must you scream "open borders" instead of actually attending to the positions  people enunciate?

    This thread is filled with people disputing the basic premises you trot out time and again, and they do so not out of personal animus, but because your positions are reprehensible. You might want to take heed.

    Long sigh.........

    nah, that will never happen.

    Good luck with the coffee and all.

    Parent

    Facts be facts, tnthorpe (1.00 / 0) (#108)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 08:41:29 AM EST
    stop your whining and off topic blather and admit you lost the argument.

    Uh, hate to wake you up but the thread is about illegal aliens. And, unlike you, my comments have been directed at explaining why illegal aliens do not contribute to the economy, and offering solutions to the problem.

    And my comments about the problems with countries that were possessions/settled by non-English speaking countries is rather obvious to anyone who reads and has kept up with current events.

    As for illegal aliens contributing "culturally," I find that to be hooey. Why do you bring it up?

    Do you claim that the legal US workers who have been displaced by the illegal aliens can eat "culture?"

    Facts be facts, tnthorpe. We have a problem. I offer solutions that help everyone. You reject them. I say again. You are an open borders person.

    Parent

    if you type this enough (5.00 / 2) (#120)
    by tnthorpe on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 10:45:00 AM EST
    you think it becomes true?

    Now go out and find a few real facts.

    One of which is, you lost the argument.

    Parent

    One of which is, you lost the argument. (none / 0) (#143)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 12:04:02 PM EST
    Type:

    The sun won't come up tomorrow a thousand times.

    Then see what happens.

    Parent

    Let me see (none / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:12:43 AM EST
    you provide two links at 12:25AM and then at 12:26 AM claim I don't respond??

    I am quick, but not that quick.

    hehe

    Parent

    But if you want links (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:21:17 AM EST
    Your links all assume (1.00 / 2) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:09:43 AM EST
    that the jobs the illegal aliens take would not have been taken by legal US workers.

    That is not correct.

    That reminds me of a classic question in aviation training.

    Assume you are 10,000 feet and both engines fail. What would you do?

    Ans: I would assume the runway I am on is at 10,000 feet and call for a tractor to tow me back to the line.

    Parent

    Prove It PPJ (5.00 / 2) (#69)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 11:23:25 AM EST
    The simplest logic that a five year old would easily understand it that with 13,000,000 undocumented workers spending their money here on food and supplies, rent, etc means that at a minimum they spend $130,000,000,000.

    Not to mention all the various studies that have been shown to you that not only show a huge net plus to the US economy but also show that the unemployment rate is not affected by the jobs that the undocumented take.

    Parent

    a five year old ::would:: easily understand it (5.00 / 2) (#70)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 12:04:24 PM EST
    But ppj is hoping against all hope that someday he'll find someone blogging here with less than the brains of a 5 year old... who will be stupid enough to think he makes any sense.

    He doesn't have much of a market left to aim at, and most of that market is not bright enough to last more than 30 seconds at TalkLeft.

    Parent

    Well let's (1.00 / 1) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:09:58 PM EST
    see... You have claimed to be a consultant.. in the IT field I believe...

    Prove me wrong.

    Show us how spending money that that is in the economy even if they were not here adds additional dollars to the economy.

    Parent

    Why? You need more to ignore? (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Edger on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:04:23 PM EST
    Read the thread. You sound foolish.

    Parent
    Prove your claim (1.00 / 1) (#109)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 08:43:05 AM EST
    Show the world were I have been proven wrong.

    Come on edger, this is your reallyyyyyyyyy big moment.

    Oh. You can't??

    hehe

    Parent

    Define what "prove" means to you (5.00 / 1) (#122)
    by Edger on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 12:14:25 PM EST
    other than as your usual: a meaningless dishonest trolling tactic.

    You won't... because it would admitting what you are, ppj. A dishonest troll.

    Parent

    hehe and a long sigh (1.00 / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:07:12 PM EST
    Where does that money come from they spend??

    It comes from the US economy.

    If they weren't here, the jobs would taken by legal US workers and the money would be spent here.

    See, squeak. They add nothing.

    If we were in a recession do you think importing millions of laborers would solve the problem??

    Do you need some money? Got $5.00 in your wallet?
    Take it out and put it in your front pocket.

    How much money do you have??

    $5.00

    (Underlined to try and help squeak concentrate.)

    Parent

    Prove Your BS (5.00 / 2) (#77)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 02:18:42 PM EST
    That they are taking jobs away from documented workers. If that were true States that have more undocumented workers would show a higher unemployment rate, that is not the case.

    Your fearmongering is empty BS as usual. One thing we can count on is that America will change.

    One thing we can be sure of is that you will not change. Your minority status grows faster every day. That is a good thing.

    Parent

    You throw such soft balls (1.00 / 0) (#110)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 08:45:37 AM EST
    Do your work for CNN??

    You have two groups.

    1. Legal workers.

    2. Illegal aliens.

    Any job the illegal aliens take is a job that could have been filled by a legal worker.


    Parent
    Hahhahaha (5.00 / 0) (#138)
    by squeaky on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 01:28:40 AM EST
    You are getting conditional all of a sudden, backing off....

    ......that could have been filled by a legal worker.

    Proof yes, proof that you are FOS

    Parent

    COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS (none / 0) (#80)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:36:46 PM EST
    Says:
    Calculating the fiscal consequences of immigration, while straightforward conceptually, is difficult in practice. To estimate correctly, one needs to know many details about the income, spending, and employment behavior of the entire population of immigrants. As a result, there are few comprehensive national level analyses of the fiscal impact of immigration.

    The National Research Council (NRC) has conducted detailed fiscal case studies on immigration in New Jersey and California, which have relatively large immigrant populations.41

    In 2000, a few years after the study was conducted, the share of the foreign-born adult population was 34 percent in California and 24 percent in New Jersey, compared with 15 percent in the nation as a whole.

    The two states have immigrant populations with quite different skill profiles and patterns of welfare usage. In 2000, the share of immigrant households headed by someone with less than a high school education was 34 percent in California and 29 percent in the nation as a whole, but only 23 percent in New Jersey.

    Similarly, the share of immigrant households receiving cash benefits from welfare programs was 13 percent in California and 10 percent in the nation as a whole, but only 8 percent in New Jersey.

    These differences in welfare uptake are due in part to immigrants in California being less skilled and in part to California offering more generous benefits.

    Based on federal, state, and local government expenditures and tax receipts, the NRC estimated that the short-run fiscal impact of immigration was negative in both New Jersey and California.

    In New Jersey, using data for 1989-1990, immigrant households received an average net fiscal transfer from natives of $1,500, or 3 percent of average state immigrant household income.

    Spread among the more numerous state native population, this amounted to an average net fiscal burden of $230 per native household, or 0.4 percent of average state native household income.

    In California, using data for 1994-95, immigrant households received an average net fiscal transfer of $3,500, or 9 percent of average immigrant household income, which resulted in an average fiscal burden on native households of $1,200, or 2 percent of average native household income.

    The impact of immigration on California is more negative because immigrant households in the state (a) are more numerous relative to the native population, (b) have more children, causing them to make greater use of public education, and (c) earn lower incomes, leading them to have lower tax payments and greater use of public assistance.

    For the nation as a whole, the NRC estimated that in 1996 immigration imposed a short-run fiscal burden on the average U.S. native household of $200, or 0.2 percent of U.S. GDP.42 In that year, the immigration surplus was about 0.1 percent of GDP.43

    A back of the envelope calculation then suggests that in the short run immigration in the mid-1990s reduced the annual income of U.S. residents by about 0.1 percent of GDP.

    Given the uncertainties involved in making this calculation, one should not put great stock in the fact that the resulting estimate is negative. The prediction error around the estimate, though unknown, is likely to be large, in which case the -0.1 percent estimate would be statistically indistinguishable from zero.

    Using this sort of analysis, we cannot say with much conviction whether the aggregate impact of immigration on the U.S. economy is positive or negative.

    What available evidence does suggest is that the total impact is small.

    This is a macro view, the micro view is that illegal workers, in many cases, take jobs that would otherwise be done by legal workers.

    For me, if it's a choice between you and me, I choose me. If it's a choice between your family and my family, I choose my family. If it's a choice between a foreign worker or a native worker, I choose the native worker.

    I support a legal foreign worker program and the ability to work toward citizenship through that program in addition to the legal immigration policies we already have.

    UHm You Forgot (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:22:25 PM EST
    This from your link:

    In this Council Special Report, Professor Gordon H. Hanson of the University of
    California, San Diego approaches immigration through the lens of economics. The results are
    surprising. By focusing on the economic costs and benefits of legal and illegal immigration,
    Professor Hanson concludes that stemming illegal immigration would likely lead to a net
    drain on the U.S. economy--a finding that calls into question many of the proposals to
    increase funding for border protection.

    Funny ppj did the same thing with the Udall report. He also, by selectively editing, tried to prove the opposite of what the report proved, immigrants both documented and undocumented are a net gain on the US ecomomy. Not your usual thing sarc, I am surprised.


    Parent

    From a report available at the Century Foundation (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 07:54:54 PM EST
    which a free market think tank:

    DO IMMIGRANTS COST THE GOVERNMENT MORE THAN THEY CONTRIBUTE IN TAXES?
    Research into this subject reveals a consensus: over time, immigrants and their descendants collectively provide more to the federal government in taxes than they receive in benefits. For example, a report by the National Academy of Sciences found that a typical immigrant and his or her descendants will pay an estimated $80,000 (in 1996 dollars) more in taxes than they will receive in combined local, state, and federal benefits over their lifetimes. [8]

    Perhaps the myth that immigrants are costly to American taxpayers stems from the fact that, at the state and local level, immigrants use more in services than they pay in local taxes (this is true for the vast majority of native citizens as well). The National Academy of Sciences study found that the average immigrant imposes a net lifetime fiscal cost on state and local governments of $25,000, attributable to their use of schools, roads, and so on. Those with very low levels of education and skill cost states and localities the most, particularly in health care outlays for emergency room and other hospital services. However, most of the taxes that immigrants pay, including Social Security contributions, go to the federal government, and these payments are well in excess of federal benefits received. [9] On balance, immigrants pay substantially more than they receive from all levels of government combined. [10]

    Of particular importance is the value of immigration to the future financial strength of the Social Security and Medicare systems. In the absence of immigration, the U.S. workforce is projected to grow very slowly--much more slowly than the size of the retired population as the Baby Boom generation reaches its golden years. Because immigrants add to the supply of younger workers who contribute payroll taxes that finance the Social Security and Medicare system, they are an important reason why forecasts show that the programs will be able to pay benefits in full until 2042 for Social Security and 2019 for Medicare's hospital insurance program. [11] The projections of Social Security's trustees show that higher levels of immigration in the future will improve the long-term financial condition of Social Security, while lower levels will have the opposite effect. The higher fertility levels of immigrants also slows the rate at which the average age of the overall population will rise, keeping more people on the contribution side of the equation.

    Fact is, workers from Latin America and other parts of the world are here to stay. Why don't we deal with it instead of prattling about anchor babies and other such nonsense?

    Parent

    No squeak (1.00 / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 09:02:38 AM EST
    I said the report was WRONG.

    Both reports assume that the jobs illegal aliens take are jobs that would not be taken by legal workers. Or they, as the Udall does, just lump illegal and illegal together.

    Parent

    Liar PPJ (none / 0) (#185)
    by squeaky on Mon Jan 07, 2008 at 11:55:15 AM EST
    Yes (5.00 / 2) (#51)
    by squeaky on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 05:42:33 PM EST
    That is the typical right wing position, from Neo-nazis to Mussolini.
    Too bad it is false.

    Do you get your numbers from the white eugenicist John Tanton and his group FAIR?

    FAIR Who is that?? (1.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 12, 2007 at 10:40:40 PM EST
    Nope, I prefer to use the Udall Report, thoughtfully provided to us by a sometimes blogger and open border dude, tnthorpe.

    From the udall report author Judith Gans:

    Using an economic simulation model, the study's researchers tallied the fiscal costs and benefits of immigrants in Arizona's economy for 2004, finding that the total state tax revenue attributable to immigrant workers was nearly $2.4 billion ($860 million for naturalized citizens plus $1.5 billion for non-citizens, a majority of whom are likely undocumented) balanced against estimated fiscal costs of about $1.4 billion for a net positive impact of about $940 million.



    Parent
    Odd that the "conclusion" he comes to (none / 0) (#95)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 05:52:37 PM EST
    is not supported in his report. In addition to what I quoted below, the report says this:
    Combining these two numbers, it appears that as of 2002 illegal
    immigration caused an annual income loss of 0.07 percent of U.S. GDP. Again, given the
    uncertainties surrounding this sort of calculation, one could not say with much
    confidence that this impact is statistically distinguishable from zero.


    Parent
    fact is sarc, (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by tnthorpe on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 09:23:59 PM EST
    my family lives on both sides of the border, in Nicaragua and Costa Rica and here, as well as in CA, AZ, and NM.

    I don't think much of nativism as a criterion in our present globalized environment and it's time to start thinking more cosmopolitanly and transnationally.

    As the thread's lead shows, there are clear, non-xenophobic steps that could resolve this issue if we move beyond nativist, right-wing memes.

    Parent

    Outside of the (1.00 / 0) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 03:52:47 PM EST
    impact of illegal aliens, which I think is huge and getting larger, I agree. And a legal foreign worker program works for me.

    But if we don't close the border we will never fix the problem.

    Do that first.

    Parent

    I think the two main levers are (none / 0) (#84)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 04:15:01 PM EST
    control of the borders and control of the employers.

    Parent
    You be right. (1.00 / 0) (#114)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 09:00:10 AM EST
    Dry the job market up and you remove the reason the illegal aliens come. That will make closing the border easier.

    That's what scares me about Huckabee. He's from Arkansas and that's Tyson Foods.

    Parent

    Of course there is a negative impact (none / 0) (#206)
    by katmandu on Fri Jan 11, 2008 at 07:20:12 AM EST
    The majority of illegal aliens are unskilled.
    They usually make about $8 per hour.  They
    usually have families.  Take a family of five,
    two adults and three children, the adults work
    two jobs and make about $130 day.  They are
    paid under the table, so no taxes are sent to
    the fed or state level.  The apt they rent is
    lower income, so there is not much paid out in
    property taxes.  A portion of their pay goes to
    family back in Mexico, rent, utilities and food
    takes up quite a bit of their remaining pay.
    There is very low taxes on any of that.
    Their children cost over $3300 a year EACH in
    school costs, they use free clinics and the
    emergency room for medical needs.  If they drive,
    it will be without a license or insurance.
    How is this contributing to the economy?
    How can anyone say this is not impacting the
    country negatively?  Its costing us $$$.
    Don't confuse legal immigration which is benificial to the US and illegal which in not.