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Opinion Writing On The News Pages?

Paul Krugman notes the radical departure by his fellow Timesperson Kit Seelye from the "Dems claim world is round, GOP disagrees" reporting. Seelye has decided to opine in a news article that Obama is right and Edwards and Clinton are wrong on health care mandates. Krugman writes:

I have a lot of problems with this Kit Seelye piece. It’s kind of weird that the usual “both sides may have a point” reporting gave way to a clear declaration that one side is right — precisely on an issue where many, many health experts believe that Obama is wrong, and that mandates are both feasible and essential.

I have no idea what the right answer is here, but I feel confident Kit Seelye does not either. I know that people like Krugman and Jon Cohn believe Edwards and Clinton are right (see also this),. And I trust them more than I do Kit Seelye, who relies on a person who works for the conservative AEI and an Obama spokesman.

As I said, I have no knowledge n this subject, but the reporting on this complex and debated subject by Seelye is clearly poor. Krugman points to this WSJ article for some good reporting on the subject. It is obvious that the WSJ report by Laurie Meckler is superior to Seelye's work. But Seelye has proven to be a poor reporter for quite some time.

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    Opinion Writing On The News Pages? (none / 0) (#1)
    by GOPmurderedconscience on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 09:34:17 AM EST
    Big Tent Democrat,

    over at Tapped, Ezra Klein, who is also recognized as a Healthcare whiz, posted a lengthy piece on this. It is a very wonky piece with details provided by Hillary's Sr policy advisors. He is still waiting for the Obama campaign to provide anything similar.

    http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=12&year=2007&base_name=when_campaign s_stop_being_poli

    Btw, he also agrees with Krugman and Cohn.

    I read the above referenced post (none / 0) (#3)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 10:08:25 AM EST
    It makes me wonder if these people that think it is so wonderful really are "experts."

    It essentially repeats the same claim five times and words it differently each time.  it also has nothing in the way of proof just states that mandates are better.

    Mandates are clearly not practical those who obsess about them, and insist they be in a plan, are going to derail Health Care reform.  It will be the easiest way to oppose a health care plan.  It just isn't not politically smart, on top of that there is no really proof that it makes a difference, especially if you are not willing to specify how a mandate will be enforced.

    Parent

    I am no expert (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 10:28:02 AM EST
    But the type of analysis you are looking for HAS been done by people like Jon Cohn, Ezra Klein and others.

    The point is it is a debatable issue.

    I have no opinion on who is right. I DO have an opinion that a lot of respected voices do not think that what Seelye wrote AS FACT is right.

    Parent

    From Krugman (none / 0) (#9)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 10:50:07 AM EST
    From the beginning, advocates of universal health care were troubled by the incompleteness of Barack Obama's plan, which unlike those of his Democratic rivals wouldn't cover everyone.

    That is a flat lie.  Mandates don't mean everyone is covered, look at Massachusetts.

    Here's why: under the Obama plan, as it now stands, healthy people could choose not to buy insurance -- then sign up for it if they developed health problems later. Insurance companies couldn't turn them away, because Mr. Obama's plan, like those of his rivals, requires that insurers offer the same policy to everyone.

    Here Krugman explains his logic as to why he thinks mandates are better.  Sounds logical, but what is missing? facts to back it up, he has none.

    First, Mr. Obama claims that his plan does much more to control costs than his rivals' plans. In fact, all three plans include impressive cost control measures.

    Thats the best he can do, Obama's isn't better because they are all good?

    Is it really KATHARINE Q. SEELYE fault Krugman didn't do his research before printing political talking points?

    Parent

    I think you miss my point (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:34:57 AM EST
    Krugman is an OPINION columnist. I understand you disagree with his opinion.

    Those are OPINIONS.

    Seelye wrote a NEWS ARTICLE.

    Parent

    What is not debatable (none / 0) (#30)
    by koshembos on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:17:46 PM EST
    The debatable issue is whether the different plans are or are not close or even similar. What is not debatable is the principle behind the plans. Clinton's and Edwards' plans "declare" universality; they may not achieve it though. Obama's plan is not a universal health plan; although his plan may be as good as the others.

    For those who look for universality of coverage, that is a significant issue. The debate about the practical effects of the plans is, at best, hypothetical. The political system will modify any plan and a compromise will take place.

    Parent

    I'd be happier... (none / 0) (#2)
    by jarober on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 09:45:19 AM EST
    I'd be happier if we returned to 19th century style media - back then, the papers were honest about their partisan attachments.  Now, they play at being objective, and it's just intellectually dishonest.

    Is Clinton Dishonest? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 10:19:50 AM EST
    Clinton claims Obama is dishonest for calling his plan universal because some people wont be covered.  Every expert I have read says the same thing about hers, some people just won't be covered, so by her own definition isn't she being dishonest.

    As for the differences in their plans, hers has an unfunded mandate, how is that going to sell politically.  I thought she was skilled in politics, why is she picking another plan that is going to fail? Sounds like she is repeating the same mistakes from the 90's.

    As for the effectiveness of mandates, an unfunded mandate wont work unless the punishment is higher then the cost, that means a fine would have to be higher then the cost of coverage.  Is that really going to sell politically?

    Yes (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 10:25:55 AM EST
    All pols are dishonest.

    Parent
    Please Link (none / 0) (#7)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 10:28:35 AM EST
    to the article in question.
    I just read the article in question.  It sounds fine to me, Krugman has an opinion, the facts don't support it, someone wrote an article with facts, he is angry.

    The problem here is that people like Ezra and Krugman  jumped on board Clinton talking points before examining the facts.

    Krugman links to it (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:33:17 AM EST
    I am not sure what you would have me do.

    I disagree with that "reporting."

    You are expressing an opinion as to the validity of the opinion expressed by Seelye.

    My problem is that Seelye EXPRESSED an opinion in a news story.

    I think that is Krugman's point.

    Parent

    I see (none / 0) (#15)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:47:29 AM EST
    the problem with the AEI as non partisan and i think that was a mistake.  The article was saying that Clinton's attacks over look facts, it presented those facts.  That isn't opinion, Krugman has joined in on some of those attacks that aren't supported by facts, he is angry.

    Krugman writes opinion, most good opinion writers back up their opinion with facts, he didn't in this case.  On top of that he chose to repeat Clinton talking points, all the way down to "mudslinging."  Sorry but if i want to read verbatim Clinton talking points i will go to her website, i don't need the NYT's opinion page for that.

    Parent

    It says more than that (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:52:43 AM EST
    Seelye's analysis of the AEI is faulty (none / 0) (#8)
    by dannyinla on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 10:38:59 AM EST
    when she describes it as "a non-partisan group" - there can be no other interpretation of this odd reading of the AEI than to give credence to the claims by Joseph Antos. And this is indicative of Seelye's other prejudices as well.

    WSJ (none / 0) (#10)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:15:09 AM EST
    The supposedly wonderful WSJ example uses a Clinton adviser as it's expert.  So I don't think you can see its perfect either.

    Parent
    That's not how I read it (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:50:33 AM EST
    For example:

    Mr. Obama has replied that her attacks are more about politics than substance; they didn't come, he noted, until she lost ground in the polls. But his advisers don't dispute her central charge. Rather, they claim Mrs. Clinton's plan would also leave millions without coverage.

    Obama adviser Austan Goolsbee argues that if Mrs. Clinton's health plan is enacted, she will have to waive the mandate for millions of people. That is because, he says, there isn't enough money for subsidies to make health insurance affordable enough for people to buy it.

    "You can't put in a mandate until health care is affordable," he says. He predicted that a Hillary Clinton administration would wind up exempting 20% of the uninsured, or about 10 million people. That is the percentage of uninsured adults who were exempted in Massachusetts, the only state to try an individual mandate.

    That view may not be true. Ken Thorpe, a health-policy expert at Emory University who has advised all three major Democrats, said he ran cost estimates for the Clinton plan at the Clinton campaign's request, and found there should be enough money to make insurance affordable for all. He said he ran three scenarios with varying levels of subsidies -- from $100 billion a year to $120 billion a year. The campaign chose one in the middle: $110 billion.

    Your description does not seem accurate to me.

    Parent

    And then there is this (none / 0) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:52:07 AM EST
    Amid the Clinton-Obama dispute, Mr. Edwards, who was the first to propose a universal coverage plan, has tried to jump into the debate. He notes that he has been much more specific than Mrs. Clinton has about how he will enforce the mandate. Indeed, Mrs. Clinton has suggested some options but has not made as clear a statement about enforcement.

    Under the Edwards plan, people will have to prove their have insurance when they file their taxes, and the government will seek to collect back premiums, with interest, for those who refuse to get it.



    Parent
    Whats no accurate? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 12:38:01 PM EST
    he ran cost estimates for the Clinton plan at the Clinton campaign's request, and found there should be enough money to make insurance affordable for all. He said he ran three scenarios with varying levels of subsidies -- from $100 billion a year to $120 billion a year. The campaign chose one in the middle: $110 billion.

    He may have in some form advised all three candidates, but this is clearly the person whose advice Clinton took when forming her plan, shocker he thinks its a good idea.

    This is the only "expert" I have ever seen claim that her plan would achieve universal coverage.

    Parent

    As I read it (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:00:36 PM EST
    the plan was FORMED and then this fellow looked at it.

    Frankly, this fellow may be full of crap as far as I know.

    My point is he is said to have advised all the candidates.

    If thast is false, then the story is shoddy. So far, there is no evidence that it is false.


    Parent

    Seelye's adjective problem (none / 0) (#26)
    by dannyinla on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:01:14 PM EST
    Do you agree that the AEI is a "nonpartisan group"?

    And much more importantly, do you believe that Seelye believes that the AEI is a "nonpartisan group"?

    Because I don't believe that Seelye thinks the AEI is nonpartisan. And that means she is playing games with her readership.

    Parent

    I said (none / 0) (#28)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:12:17 PM EST
    that is a problem and that I agree it is.  I don't think it makes the piece opinion.

    Parent
    It appears (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:39:49 AM EST
    that Steelye has written an opinion piece and the editor at Time has let it be published as "news."

    That is just wrong in itself and both should the editor and Steelye chastised and put of notice.

    BTD: Let's use you as a test case. (none / 0) (#14)
    by Geekesque on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:46:28 AM EST
    You are not a health care wonk, but you are someone who cares greatly about this kind of thing.

    How does the idea of the government requiring citizens to purchase health insurance strike you?  

    A)  Seems like a good idea

    B)  Seems like a bad idea

    C)  I'd need to hear more specifics

    D)  I can't even begin to guess

    C (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 11:47:40 AM EST
    The estimated cost (none / 0) (#20)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 12:03:54 PM EST
    of a health care plan is 5,000 a year.  I plan on returning to grad school next year. I may not be insured at that point and the idea that i would have to finance and additional 15,000 in my student loans doesn't sound appealing to me.  Thats provided i would even qualify to borrow the additional money.

    Poeple like Krugman and Ezra, don't see themselves in a scenario where they would be forced to by some expensive health plan, so of course it sounds like a good idea "in theory."

    Clinton says she does not want to fix social security on the backs of middle class that make 6 figures, but she is ready to fix health care on my back? come on?

    See what happens when (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 12:34:48 PM EST
    money comes up??? The people who are "for" NHC all start to argue about "fairness" and "who should pay."

    The old saying, "Don't tax you, don't tax me. Tax that feller behind that tree," comes immediately to mind.

    The only way to do it is with a National Sales Tax, weighted for certain essential items.

    All share and all pay. That would include students in graduate school.

    Without that, NHC will never come to pass under a Demo plan. As it took a Repub, yes the evileeeeee Bush, to provide Seniors Rx Insurance, it will take a Repub to provide NHC.

    Parent

    The Graduated Income Tax (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 12:42:07 PM EST
    is based on the principle that you only tax peoples disposable income.  If you earn less money, less of a percentage of your income is disposable, therefore you get a lower tax rate.  If you earn more, more of a percentage is disposable, so you get a higher tax rate.

    Sales tax is a disaster, because it will raise taxes on the poor. It hurts the economy, because it discourages spending.

    Parent

    Yep (none / 0) (#24)
    by Dadler on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 12:49:37 PM EST
    Any such tax would have to be adjusted based on income.  That would, on a sale by sale basis, require some form of ID that carries the buyer's income level.  As with anything that will benefit everyone, simple generosity (an ethic all religions supposedly subscribe to) is the key to success.  "I got mine, you get yours" is no recipe for that success.

    Parent
    Unless its just a luxury goods tax..... (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:29:56 PM EST
    cars over 50k, clothing articles over 100 bucks, jewelry, electronics, and the like.

    If you're poor and can afford/sacrifice to get these items, you can afford/sacrifice the tax too.  And I don't see the rich or middle class foregoing the purchase of their toys because a healthcare tax is added.

    It might work.

    Parent

    What you do (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:51:43 PM EST
    is weight the tax on essentials. Say, no tax on unprepared food items, utilities, gasoline, etc. Maybe a 10% tax on new cars, none on cars over 10 years old...etc.

    Parent
    More support for it..... (none / 0) (#36)
    by kdog on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 02:00:08 PM EST
    I think if you just stick to high-ticket luxuries.  Progressives should support it because the poor shouldn't be buying high-ticket items to begin with, and basically won't be taxed.  Conservatives should support it because they are paying for their own health care and getting a toy at the same time...not a bad deal.  Americans buy the hell out of high-ticket luxuries, I think it would raise oodles of dough.

    The only opposition would be the manufacturers of high-ticket items, in a debate as heated as health care, thats not to shabby.

    Parent

    Do you object for (none / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:48:52 PM EST
    people paying for their health care?

    And why should I pay for someone else's??

    Parent

    Nope (none / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:44:20 PM EST
    Hmmmm, having paid FIT for some 60 odd years I think I have the concept and method down. Let me know when you have 15% of the same experience...

    BTW - Any tax is a depressant on purchasing because it takes money out of the marketplace and sends it to government. The question is, does the depressant do enough "good" to overcome the negative.

    BTW - A National Sales tax, as I noted, can be weighted to remove essentials from taxation. This would largely shield the "poor."

    It would also insure that all those now in the "gray" economy, including dope dealers, some Internet marketeers, illegal aliens and the rich who can shelter their income through tax free munis, etc., pay their share.

    Presently, a family of four with children 18 or younger, pay NO FIT on income of up to approximately $38,200. That would leave the remainder of our citizens to pay for their health care.

    The taxpayer of today understands that is nothing more than means tested welfare.

    And they aren't going to stand for it being dumped on them.

    Parent

    in the interest of accuracy (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:52:51 PM EST
    that's 50 odd years..

    Parent
    except (none / 0) (#37)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 02:15:54 PM EST
    BTW - Any tax is a depressant on purchasing because it takes money out of the marketplace and sends it to government. The question is, does the depressant do enough "good" to overcome the negative.

    All the more so if it is directly correlated to how much you spend.

    It would also insure that all those now in the "gray" economy, including dope dealers, some Internet marketeers, illegal aliens and the rich who can shelter their income through tax free munis, etc., pay their share.

    It would? So you mean suddenly there will be a drug sales tax too? Wouldn't this just drive people  oversees, make tons money in the US and spend it all/live in Mexico? Take your pension and move to Canada, this sounds a lot like mandates, sounds great in theory, will never work in practice.

    Parent

    I don't think you read my comment. (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 03:37:46 PM EST
    but if you did and wrote:

    all the more so if it is directly correlated to how much you spend.

    I trust you will have some classes in economics when you return to school because it is obvious you need help.

    Try to understand this. The FIT is not, cannot ever and was not designed to correlate with the amount you "spend." It is designed to levy a tax on the amount you earn, subject total amount dependent on both sources and various "deductions" with the total then taxed at various percentages. i.e. You pay less on some investment income than you do on "ordinary income." You can deduct some medical expenses, but not others, and only above 5% of your adjusted gross. And if you make above a certain amount your deductions are reduced... (Alternative Minimum Tax)... I could go on, but I hope that gives you an idea.

    What started out to be "fair" has turned into a method for politicians to reward certain groups. Why should Dick and Jane have a deduction for a loan to buy a house and those in an apartment not??

    All of this has given rise to huge resentments in the middle class. They anger easily and if the Demos try and tack on another "means tested" benefit they will see it as welfare and NHC won't become real.

    A "sales tax" is based on what you "spend."  It meets all of the classic requirements of "fair." You spend the money, you pay the tax. You can be someone making a million or $10,000. The percentage is the same.

    It is the results that a sales tax is criticized for. Since "poor" people spend a higher percentage of their incomes on essentials than the middle class or the "rich," it is deemed unfair.

    I would modify the National Health Care National Sales tax to reduce/eliminate it from "essentials" such as unprepared food, gasoline, utilities, public transportation, used autos of a certain age, etc. I would "spread" it on others. Fur coats might be at 20% and "plain Republican cloth coat at 8%.. etc. That does not meet your obvious belief that health care should be free for graduate students....;-)... but it can be sold to the middle class.

    Plus, it has the added benefits of catching those now paying no FIT at all.... drug dealers, illegal aliens and others in the "cash" only gray market.

    BTW - Since we are talking health care I thought it obvious that drugs are part of health care. So NO. Drugs are included in the plan and paid for by the plan. But tell me. Didn't you know that??

    Parent

    My Perspective (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:06:57 PM EST
    Is not that one plan will be decidedly different than another in terms of what eventually gets implemented.  

    Many on blogs complain of Politicians who refuse to take the military option off the table when it comes to certain countries like Iran.  It's said that by leaving the Military Option on the table, one is being unnecessarily bellicose.  

    Agree or disagree I guess.

    On this one issue, Clinton and Edwards are ahead of Obama in kind of the same way.

    Obama leaves on the table a large segment of the population should go without insurance simply because they choose not to participate.

    Clinton and Edwards, agree or disagree, have a different position on that issue.
    Clinton, Edwards, and Obama, as president will probably implement plans that leave a great many uninsured.  Immigrants are just one large segment of the population.

    But by using a word like mandate, Edwards and Clinton create more of an atmosphere of interconnected responsibility.

    The analogy I'm going to provide here is not to be considered literal.  I'm sure an Obama supporter will read it as such, anyway.  The analogy is just the best analogy I can come up with to describe a set of piorities.

    I look forward to the day when people think about health insurance the same way they think about car insurance.

    Make that argument (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 01:17:19 PM EST
    to the family of 4 who barely makes too much money for subsidies and is looking at 10,000 extra dollars a year under the Obama plan and 20 under Clintons.  The watch as all the hope of health care reform falls to pieces, becasue you ezra Clinton and krugman insist on having mandates to fulfill some philosophical desire for shared responsibility, or because they just feel more universal, or whatever your rational you have.

    Parent
    For Those Families (none / 0) (#38)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 02:56:13 PM EST
    There are ways to make sure they can afford it.


    Parent
    So (none / 0) (#39)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 03:15:31 PM EST
    Obam has said after the reforms, if there are large amounts of people who cant be enticed into getting insured he will consider a mandate. You say force them to get it, or let them get punished, in a few years and if they are going bankrupt we will figure out something? sounds irresponsible to do it that way.

    Parent
    It sounds equally irresponsible to me (none / 0) (#41)
    by Edgar08 on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 03:33:22 PM EST
    You know, there's already enough Americans who feel taxes should be a choice.  "Why pay property tax if I'm never going to have a kid and use a school, besides, I can't afford this house if I pay property tax, I'll go bankrupt?"

    Is everyone like that?  No.

    Is there a lot of people like that, and is it right?


    Parent

    Property Taxes (none / 0) (#44)
    by Jgarza on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 03:51:02 PM EST
    are based upon the value of your property, and therefore correlate to your ability to pay them.  These will mandate everyone, think you may make to much money to qualify but have student loans, or old credit cards, or maybe you entered into a large mortgage, and just not be able to fit that in yoru budget.  You didn't calculate the additional 5 thousand per person, so it is unfair to suddenly mandate that you pay it.  It's a bad idea to start with a mandate.

    Parent
    Tell me of great wizard (none / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 03:48:51 PM EST
    of finance...

    I can use $10K myself...

    Parent

    The incredibly stupid Kit Seelye (none / 0) (#40)
    by GOPmurderedconscience on Wed Dec 05, 2007 at 03:22:07 PM EST
    Wow!

    Kit Seelye is taking a beating on her poor reporting and lack of understanding of the issue she is writing about. This just reminded me of what is going on with Joe Klein and FISA.

    Anyway, the beating is coming from people who actually know what they are talking about:

    • most people here have read the Krugman piece

    • Ezra Klein opines here:
    http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/12/why-oh-why-cant.html

    - Brad Delong opines here:
    http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2007/12/ezra-klein-is-s.html