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Riverbend on the Rape of Sabrine

Iraqi blogger Riverbend is back after a few months hiatus. She's livid about the rape of Sabrine and the attempt to cast it as a Shia - Sunni issue. Her final paragraphs from the first linked post:

As the situation continues to deteriorate both for Iraqis inside and outside of Iraq, and for Americans inside Iraq, Americans in America are still debating on the state of the war and occupation- are they winning or losing? Is it better or worse.
Let me clear it up for any moron with lingering doubts: It’s worse. It’s over. You lost. You lost the day your tanks rolled into Baghdad to the cheers of your imported, American-trained monkeys. You lost every single family whose home your soldiers violated. You lost every sane, red-blooded Iraqi when the Abu Ghraib pictures came out and verified your atrocities behind prison walls as well as the ones we see in our streets. You lost when you brought murderers, looters, gangsters and militia heads to power and hailed them as Iraq’s first democratic government. You lost when a gruesome execution was dubbed your biggest accomplishment. You lost the respect and reputation you once had. You lost more than 3000 troops. That is what you lost America. I hope the oil, at least, made it worthwhile.

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    By the by (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 02:09:29 PM EST
    If any of you war supporters hav any links to Iraqis blogging about how hunky dory things are in Iraq, please, by all means, post them. We lefties always like to get the opposing viewpoints. It only helps the debate.

    Jim's (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Che's Lounge on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 01:39:48 PM EST
    8:32;02 post is a classic.

    The issue is freedom and establishing a democratic government.

    Nothing else.

    Not WMD? Not the WOT? Not the oil? (what am I thinking-of course it's not the oil)

    Promoting this kind of propaganda is very dangerous to this country. Dick Cheney does it, as does his knowing apologist posting here. This lie has been exposed here and elsewhere on the internet and in the MSM over and over again. No one believes it when Cheney says it. Repeatedly spouting it here is a comic tragedy. But I have a pretty good idea why Jim contiues to post these lies here.

    For an opposing view.. (none / 0) (#1)
    by jarober on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 08:53:14 AM EST
    You might try having a look at Iraq the Model.  There are multiple opinions in Iraq, just like there are here - and it doesn't really help to pretend otherwise.

    You offer military propaganda (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Al on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:28:12 PM EST
    as "an opposing point of view" to what an incredibly eloquent and courageous writer like Riverbend says?

    Who exactly do you think you're kidding?

    Parent

    Only himself (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:37:12 PM EST
    that site is a (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 02:15:08 PM EST
    shill site for busco. Notice that most of the newspaper quotes in it come from al-Sabah. al-Sabah was set up for propaganda purposes by the Bush administration and its staff at one time resigned in protest over all the propaganda.

    This is why the gov't shouldn't be allowed to sponsor propaganda with our money. Eventually some misguided soul will import it back as factual.

    Parent

    And one other quiz question (none / 0) (#2)
    by jarober on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 08:54:35 AM EST
    Would the author of the blog have been able to issue the criticisms she levels at the US (which she is perfectly safe issuing) at the previous regime?

    What does that tell you about the changes there?

    You obviously (none / 0) (#13)
    by Al on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:28:45 PM EST
    haven't been following Riverbend these last years.

    Parent
    Tokyo Rose (none / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 09:13:28 AM EST
    You lost the day your tanks rolled into Baghdad to the cheers of your imported, American-trained monkeys.

    Does anyone know anything about her religious or political background?

    I would guess she is Suni, and based on her comments she, or her family, has/had some connecton to the previous regime.

    Or maybe she is an American and just playing he role of Tokyo Rose.

    BTW - Squeaky and Edger have both posted this in earlier comments. So they may have some information.

    Riverbend (none / 0) (#4)
    by nolo on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 10:36:12 AM EST
    appears to be from a mixed sunni-shia family, at least according to wikipedia, with a western education.

    Parent
    nolo (none / 0) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 10:48:29 AM EST
    Do you know any reason she should be anti-american, given that we closed down Saddam's rape rooms..

    Oh wait... That doesn't count.

    Parent

    Jim, are you serious? (none / 0) (#10)
    by TomStewart on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:06:07 PM EST
    Why would she be anti-American? What possible reason would she have?

    We just invaded her country, killed it's citizens, held 'elections' more tainted than those run by the thug Saddam, allowed her country to be looted (and not just for office chairs and 1st century vases) tortured and raped citizens or looked away while it happened and committed a thousand small crimes against the culture and sensibilities of the people of Iraq.

    If this was America that had been invaded to free us from the Bush administration (say, Europe, probably backed by most of the world, had decided to do a preemtive strike on a dangerous government), how would you respond? Greet the Europeons as liberators, or react with very little gratitude for the great job they had done freeing us from a dangerous madman?

    As she said, this folly has cost America 3,000 of our own people, and the respect of the world. How much more should we pay?


    Parent

    Oh really??? (none / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 06:12:05 PM EST
    held 'elections' more tainted than those run by the thug Saddam,

    You were on a roll until I read this. I had to grab the waste can to have something to puke in, and then I had to clean it so it took me a few moments to read the another of the usual...

    if this was america

    It's not america and your comparsion is laughable...

    You might try Iran, Venezula, etc.

    Parent

    Tokyo Rose? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Al on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:41:53 PM EST
    Well, I just looked up Tokyo Rose on Wikipedia, and it's a fascinating story, too long to reproduce here.

    It's also totally unrelated to Riverbend. She is a chronicler who has been musing about living in occupied Iraq for years, very eloquently and very courageously.

    It's amusing that you would find her threatening. We should hear more Iraqi voices, saying what they think about what is happening to them.

    So what if she is a Sunni or a Shia? She's being shot at, and very rightly pissed off about it.

    Parent

    Al (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 06:06:44 PM EST
    It is even more amusing that you write that I find her threatenig.

    What did I say that would give you that idea.

    What I find is that she is confused, uninformed and unappreciative.

    As for Tohyo's story, it isn't long or complicated.
    That you had no knoweldge of her demonstrates the terrible job our schools are doing on history.

    Parent

    Tokyo Rose? (none / 0) (#36)
    by nolo on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 06:18:10 PM EST
    First, I'm not that freaked that Al didn't necessarily have all the facts on Tokyo Rose -- for years after the war, all you heard about her were lies and half-truths, and besides, I hardly think she was such an important figure in WWII that she would warrant special treatment in a general history class.

    That being said, how do you equate Riverbend with Tokyo Rose?  If she's speaking of her own free will, she's not even comparable.  If, like the original Tokyo Rose, she's speaking under compulsion, then where's your compassion for her situation (and who do you think is compelling her speech)?

    Parent

    nolo (none / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 06:59:20 PM EST
    First of all, it is now popular to believe that Tokyo Rose was just terribly misunderstood, and that she actually was a group of Japanese females working at different times.

    Now the equipment was primitive, and those listening  to them were under a great deal of stress... laying in foxholes, dodging torpedos, etc., but I have never heard anyone say they thought it was different people they were hearing every night.

    As for the other chargs, I'll go with the people who were there and convicted her.

    The comparsion then is the message. You lost, etc., etc.

    Parent

    I'm going to excuse you (none / 0) (#43)
    by nolo on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 07:48:17 PM EST
    as a product of your generation, ppj.*  But just on the Tokyo Rose matter.

    *as for my generation, my mom grew up imagining she was shooting the Japs when she played arcade shooting games as a girl, and I actually spent about three of my formative years on a real live WWII battlefield.

    Parent

    No thanks (none / 0) (#56)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 09:18:07 AM EST
    my generation doesn't need to be excused by you. On the other hand....

    And I have visited Gettysburg and seen several Civil  War movies..... so your point is that living on a battleground makes you special??

    BTW - What did you think of the Gooney Birds? I believe they are also on Wake. Gadzillions are on Midway.

    Parent

    OFF TOPIC (none / 0) (#59)
    by Sailor on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 10:20:28 AM EST
    How to apply (none / 0) (#6)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 10:54:45 AM EST
    the wingnuts prime directive to Riverbends posts about Sabrine al-Janabi...

    At all costs avoid and do everything possible to divert from talking about or acknowledging the multiple rape attacks on a 20 year old girl by the security forces of the Bush Administrations puppet regime in Iraq.

    Maybe no one will notice.

    Oh, and whatever you do don't talk Maliki's attempts at covering up the rape, or about questions like:

    Is Maliki blackmailing Bush with a "If you don't back me, my government falls, and for Bush that's a fate worse than impeachment" threat?, and "is this what we have now reduced ourselves to in Iraq, that we acquiesce in covering-up rape cover-ups perpetrated by our alleged puppets?"


    Politics (none / 0) (#7)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 11:16:43 AM EST
    Uh, time to get specific here, edger.

    First, her claim is that it was the Iraqi security forces.

    It was Iraqi peace keeping or security forces- the ones trained by Americans?

    Now we don't know if they are, or are not. But, we'll assume she is correct.

    Don't you think that the proper thing for us to do is to send more troops, provide more training to correct this problem?

    Do you want to cut and run and leave situations like this??

    We then find this comment:

    You lost when you brought murderers, looters, gangsters and militia heads to power and hailed them as Iraq's first democratic government.

    So we now know that this about politics. She is unhappy with the election, and will make any unreasonable comment to reflect on it.

    Specifically (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 11:25:39 AM EST
    "is this what we have now reduced ourselves to in Iraq, that we acquiesce in covering-up rape cover-ups perpetrated by our alleged puppets?"

    Specifically (none / 0) (#9)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 11:28:40 AM EST
    So... (none / 0) (#11)
    by jarober on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:09:49 PM EST
    I see Edger is uninterested in my observation:

    -- under the occupation and new government, she is free to post these critiques - as evidenced from the blog.  With no retribution from the US.

    -- question for Edger: Would she have been free to post equivalent critiques of the ancien regime?

    Still trying to change to subject I see (none / 0) (#14)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:33:44 PM EST
    Go look it up jarober, if the subject at hand makes you squirm and is too uncomfortable.

    Parent
    Edger won't (none / 0) (#40)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 07:12:26 PM EST
    Come on edger. It's a fair question.

    Answer it. Of course you won't.

    jarober... here is his thoughts on the matter.

    Posted by edger at December 4, 2005 08:12 AM

    I had written: "Insurgents don't use car bombs to kill civilians or give booby trapped dolls to children. That is terrorist work, edgey." (quoted from my previous comment)

    That is not "terrorist work" in the way you try to twist it to mean, at all. It is the work of the Iraqi people - the very people BushCo thought would throw flowers - fighting to kick the US out of Iraq.

    Now, do you understand?

    Parent

    Wrong (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:33:52 PM EST
    You have a distorted picture of what Iraq was during Sadaams reign. He may have been an evil dictator but it was a secular society and culture was quite alive in Baghdad. Compared to now it was flourishing.

    Obviously you only listen to Faux.

    Parent

    Sqeaky (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 07:06:33 PM EST
    Florishing?? Culture??

    Where you there? No?

    Obviously you have been listening to NBC.

    Oh wait! You're talking abour Saddam's shot gun blast into the air for his adoring party members...
    His rape rooms... His gas attacks....

    Parent

    Who cares? (none / 0) (#18)
    by Al on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:44:01 PM EST
    The point is, the occupation is hell.

    Iraq is your responsibility.

    Parent

    Murder schmurder (none / 0) (#23)
    by Dadler on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 01:01:05 PM EST
    Your inability to face the ugly reality is childish.  So she now can post an email and not be tracked down by Saddam's goons, instead fearing goons and murderers from opposing sides in this now destroyed society, having her head drilled, getting blown up by a car bomb, getting detained and assualted by occupying military forces, etc., etc., etc.,....

    Is it any wonder what people think of our country when folks like you don't even have the common human decency to offer regret or apology or even the most bare of self-criticism that freedom is supposed to engender.


    Parent

    Whatever (none / 0) (#25)
    by wlgriffi on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 01:08:19 PM EST
    It seems that the saying "the truth hurts" is still applicable.

    Parent
    Re: So... (none / 0) (#33)
    by Skyho on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 04:35:58 PM EST
    Jar,

    Riverbend posted when Iraq had gobs of electricity, clean water and clean streets, well before our morons decided to "go to war" and invade Iraq at the urging of common criminasl, Chalabi and Cheney.  One of the reasons she hid behind anomitity (just like you) is because she was critical of Saddam, among other things.

    If you are going to comment, please try a little self-education, first.

    Parent

    The point is (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 09:13:02 AM EST
    that she can now blog and not be fearful.

    One of the purposes of the invasion was regime change.... and the establihment of a democratic Iraq.

    Since you are anti-Bush, you like to overlook such things as freedom.


    Parent

    Even Allawi (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:51:41 PM EST
    pointed out a year and a half ago what was developing under Bush's puppet regime in Iraq:
    Human rights abuses in Iraq are now as bad as they were under Saddam Hussein and are even in danger of eclipsing his record, according to the country's first Prime Minister after the fall of Saddam's regime

    "People are doing the same as [in] Saddam's time and worse," Ayad Allawi told The Observer. "It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same things."

    Abuse worse than under Saddam, says Iraqi leader

    If the Right (none / 0) (#21)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:56:18 PM EST
    can excuse Raygun and Ollie's nun rapers, they'll excuse anything.

    As they used to say at the School of the Americas if you wannas make an omelet, you have to break a few hymens.

    Yes (none / 0) (#22)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 12:58:11 PM EST
    that was in atrocious taste, but there's nothing more tasteless than crypto-fascist apologists.

    ahhh, wingnuts are ok (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 01:04:13 PM EST
    skewered and roasted over a very hot fire.

    Parent
    Btw, (none / 0) (#26)
    by jondee on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 01:19:53 PM EST
    saying Riverbend is "perfectly safe" is the conceit of the temperature controlled SUV inhabiting American mind; nothing much more than that.

    Also from Riverbends post (none / 0) (#27)
    by Edger on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 01:38:13 PM EST
    about Sabrine:
    ...he said to me, `We take what we want and what we don't want we kill. That's that.'
    ...
    I look at this woman and I can't feel anything but rage. What did we gain? I know that looking at her, foreigners will never be able to relate. They'll feel pity and maybe some anger, but she's one of us. She's not a girl in jeans and a t-shirt so there will only be a vague sort of sympathy. Poor third-world countries- that is what their womenfolk tolerate. Just know that we never had to tolerate this before. There was a time when Iraqis were safe in the streets. That time is long gone. We consoled ourselves after the war with the fact that we at least had a modicum of safety in our homes. Homes are sacred, aren't they? That is gone too.


    I'm just glad she's alive (none / 0) (#28)
    by Che's Lounge on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 02:02:36 PM EST
    I was originally going to say I was glad she is OK, but she is not OK.

    By conveniently marginalizing Riverbend, the delusional supporters of the destruction of her country reveal themselves as truly unable to connect with humanity in any sophisticated manner. Between the lies and ineptitude that have laid the foundations of this atrocity of a war, it is incomprehensible that any rational human being would question the real time observations of one individual trapped smack in the middle of this h**l's kitchen.

    Whatever crimes the regime of Saddam Hussein committed on the people of Iraq were the result of the US first empowering him, then arming him, then, when he resisted us, supporting his opponents, leading to a more repressive regime.
    The Gulf War (led by us), sanctions (led by us), the invasion (led by us), and lawless atrocities commited by the puppet government(led by us), have devastated the country, causing slightly more than the 35K deaths that the above delusional supporters trot out like cheap magicians.

    You can make all claims you want about how bad SH was, but we made him too. Yet die hard supporters of the war, who are nothing but dupes for Cheney and his inside group of international capitalists, continue to attack the messenger instead of showing one iota of insight, or humility. Such egotistical attitudes about world affairs is not only dangerous to us domestically (by dividing a nation ostensibly committed to peace), but are also increasing the danger to us from around the world. By enabling, and then blindly supporting this strategic debacle, they are putting us in much greater danger than we were in on September 12, 2001.

    Che (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 07:53:46 PM EST
    Do you really want to talk about monsters?

    "Here Che was, finally in his element. In battle he was a sad joke, a bumbler of epic proportions [for details see "Fidel: Hollywood's Favorite Tyrant"], but up against disarmed and bloodied boys he was a snarling tiger.

    "'Kneel Down!' Che barked at the boy.

    "'ASSASSINS!' We screamed from our window. 'MURDERERS!! HOW CAN YOU MURDER A LITTLE BOY!'

    "'I said, KNEEL DOWN!' Che barked again.

    "The boy stared Che resolutely in the face. 'If you're going to kill me,' he yelled. 'you'll have to do it while I'm standing! MEN die standing!'

    "COWARDS! MURDERERS! Sons of B**TCHES!" The men yelled desperately from their cells. "LEAVE HIM ALONE!" HOW CAN ...?!"

    "And then we saw Che unholstering his pistol. It didn't seem possible. But Che raised his pistol, put the barrel to the back of the boy's neck and blasted. The shot almost decapitated the young boy.



    Parent
    OFF TOPIC (none / 0) (#77)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 05:16:51 PM EST
    and yet another personal attack.

    Parent
    Sigh (none / 0) (#31)
    by jarober on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 02:49:34 PM EST
    I can't tell whether Edger (and his ilk) refuse to see my point, or whether they simply can't understand it.  In Iraq, before the invasion, public condemnation of the ancien regime would have met with torture and death.  Period, end of story.  

    Criticism of the American occupation simply won't lead to retaliation from the US.  Period.  

    Things are hardly "perfect" in Baghdad - but they are better than they were.  As for the uninformed person who brought up the secular nature of the old regime - yeah, Franco, Hitler, Stalin, and Pinochet were all secular, too.  Fat lot of good it did their victims.


    beg to differ (none / 0) (#32)
    by Sailor on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 04:01:58 PM EST
    Things are hardly "perfect" in Baghdad - but they are better than they were.
    What metric are you using? Access to electric power? potable water? sewage removal? Violent death's per day? Freedom to move about the country? Religious freedom?
    All of the above are worse now.

    Parent
    Wrong (none / 0) (#45)
    by squeaky on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 10:30:30 PM EST
    Things are hardly "perfect" in Baghdad - but they are better than they were.

    You are out of your mind.

    Parent

    Dadler (none / 0) (#37)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 06:51:59 PM EST
    Speaking of stupid, the comment was about Riverbend.

    But I think you knew that. There is no one with an IQ above room temperature who could have mistaken that. And, you aren't stupid, just confused and with a deep desire to make continual ad homenim attacks because you have no argument.

    As for riverbend, if she is to be taken seriously by anyone outside the left she should drop the rant and become rational.

    The young lady she writes about has my deep sympathy, and I if I could explain anything to her it would he how the demonstrations and protests here in the US have extended the war, and what happened to her may not have happened if it weren't for that extension.

    You wrote at Dec 17, 2005 at 01:06:59 PM EST

    you're stating the obvious, that protest worked. Sorry it helped "the enemy", but no Vietnamese communist fighting Western colonialism ever did a thing to me.

    I remember thinking when I read that how self centered it was. How you were completely ignoring those killed when the communist took over, the rapes of the women in the boats.

    So go read riverbend's article again, dadler. Understand what a war extended by an enemy who is emboldened by demonstrations on the home front can do to those who are actually there rather than being here "speaking truth to power."

    Wow (none / 0) (#42)
    by glanton on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 07:33:46 PM EST
    and I if I could explain anything to her it would he how the demonstrations and protests here in the US have extended the war, and what happened to her may not have happened if it weren't for that extension.

    That's delightful.

    I don't even think Bush himself would be able to utter such a line, even on a basically anonymous blog like this one, without blushing.

    But somehow, Jim, I suspect that in your world this really does make sense.  Who was it tyhat brought in the relationship between your posts and being off medication?  I remember thinking that was an ad hominem attack. Now I begin to see the insight of it.

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 08:44:45 AM EST
    Well, at least Dadler agrees with me.

    Or did you not read his comments I quoted and linked to?

    Parent

    Jim (none / 0) (#57)
    by glanton on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 09:53:20 AM EST
    I get your argument, I really do.  Intellectually serious people do not say the deaths resulting from the invasion are the fault of people against the invasion.  

    You take someone whose family has been killed and "explain" to them that they cannot blame the people who actually killed them or the people who ordered the killing.  Tell the person who has lost everything: "hey, if everybody would just get on board it wouldn't be neceesary to kill anymore."

    Parent

    Glanton (none / 0) (#66)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 07:47:00 PM EST
    I didn't say the argument would be accepted by the young lady, I said it was correct.

    BTW - Love the "if you don't agree your stupid posit." Nice move, you're getting better.

    Parent

    I know you aren't (none / 0) (#69)
    by glanton on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 09:50:17 PM EST
    stupid, Jim.  
    Let me ask you this.  About the invasion. And the deaths that result from it.  Any culpability at all on the part of the invaders?

    You see, it really sounds like you want are blaming those who fight back, and blaming those who oppose.  All the while refusing to ascribe blame to those who invaded the country.

    That is not being intellectually serious.    

       

    Parent

    what you have come to (none / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 07:15:59 PM EST
    Ah.... now the thread has turned into Saddam apologists..

    I knew it would.

    Obviously (none / 0) (#46)
    by Al on Sat Feb 24, 2007 at 10:31:59 PM EST
    Saddam has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Or Hitler, or Franco, or Mussolini.

    As I said before to someone else, who exactly do you think you're kidding?

    Parent

    Al (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 08:32:02 AM EST
    Saddam has everything to do with the thread.

    We are in Iraq because of him.

    We now have an attempt by the anti-war Left to tell us that Iraq was a better place under Saddam.

    What a hoot. Especially by people who claim politocs trumps everything.

    Repeat after me.

    The issue is freedom and establishing a democratic government.

    Nothing else.

    Parent

    Wrong (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 08:36:41 AM EST
    Saddam has everything to do with the thread.

    We are in Iraq because of him.

    We are in Iraq because of the neocons and their pnac. The WH conspired to defraud the american public and congress in order to carry out their plan.

    Now the Iraqi people are suffering and the world is a much less safer place.

    Parent

    Off topic (none / 0) (#65)
    by Sailor on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 04:53:20 PM EST
    Saddam has everything to do with the thread.
    We are in Iraq because of him.
    [...]
    The issue is freedom and establishing a democratic government.
    1) we invaded iraq because bush lied about iraq's having WMDs.

    1. This thread is about the iraqi gov't (installed by the US) raping women in iraq.

    2. ppj is attempting his constant method of distracting the discourse of what the actual thread is.

    READ THE TITLE OF THE POST! And get back on topic.

    Parent
    PPJ as mid east scholar (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 09:42:09 AM EST
    Yuval Diskin, head of Shin Bet, the Israeli intelligence agency, admitted last year that Israel may end up missing Saddam Hussein: "When you dismantle a system in which there is a despot who controls his people by force, you have chaos," he said. "I'm not sure we won't miss Saddam." (Israeli television was recording him, unbeknownst to him).

    Juan Cole

    But what do they know? PPJ knows better.

    Parent

    Oh, he'll think of something I'm sure (none / 0) (#73)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 09:54:44 AM EST
    Probably along the lines of "Jews who miss Saddam are anti-semitic" or something else equally stupid and deranged

    Parent
    OFF TOPIC (none / 0) (#78)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 05:19:46 PM EST
    and yet another personal attack.

    Parent
    Not Worse... (none / 0) (#47)
    by jarober on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 12:06:02 AM EST
    So - would the author of RiverBend have been able to publicly criticize the Hussein regime or not?  What we see here is very illuminating - the left values security over rights.  Makes one wonder what they would do here in the US with full power.

    Jarober (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 02:39:18 AM EST
    You claim: In Iraq, before the invasion, public condemnation of the ancien regime would have met with torture and death

    Provide evidence.

    You claim: Not worse.

    Provide evidence.

    -------
    Because since you haven't you are looking like a complete fool. And if you don't you will continue to look like a complete fool.

    Edger (none / 0) (#52)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 08:40:31 AM EST
    There has been so much public information re Saddam's death squads, rape rooms, etc., that asking such a question is like asking someone to prove that the sun comes up.

    It is unnecessary and dishonest and is typical of your debating tactics.

    But it does explain why you made the following comment:

    Posted by edger at December 4, 2005 08:12 AM

    (From my previous comment)Insurgents don't use car bombs to kill civilians or give booby trapped dolls to children. That is terrorist work, edgey.

    (You responded.)That is not "terrorist work" in the way you try to twist it to mean, at all. It is the work of the Iraqi people - the very people BushCo thought would throw flowers - fighting to kick the US out of Iraq":




    Parent
    DA, you know better. (none / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 08:27:39 AM EST
    So riverbend could have blogged from Iraq and said what she has said about the authorities?

    You have to know that is wrong.

    Why say?

    I know you don't understand.. (none / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 08:17:18 AM EST
    That's your problem..

    Parent
    I really don't respond (1.00 / 1) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 10:20:55 AM EST
    well to your snarky comments, DA.

    So why do you bother??

    Do you have this burning desire to be dismissed with sarcasm and nonsesne??

    Do you like pain?

    Parent

    run out of??? ;-) (none / 0) (#76)
    by Edger on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 12:12:03 PM EST
    OFF TOPIC (none / 0) (#79)
    by Sailor on Mon Feb 26, 2007 at 05:21:49 PM EST
    Yet another personal attack and a threat to another commenter.

    Parent
    Forgetting someting? (none / 0) (#54)
    by squeaky on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 08:47:00 AM EST
    There has been so much public information re Saddam's death squads, rape rooms, etc.,....

    you forgot to also mention WMD's, aluminum tubes and mushroom clouds.

    not to mention (none / 0) (#62)
    by Sailor on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 01:12:45 PM EST
    pulling babies out of incubators and where is the documentation for these 'rape rooms' a commenter wrote of? The only link I can find is bush saying it, not exactly a truthful source.

    BTW, here are sourced references to human rights in iraq since we invaded. There are still death squads, officials still rape, torture and murder.

    And the tendency of some on this site to blame the victim, 'she was asking for it yur honor', is disgusting.

    Parent

    :Real men: doing their best to forget or excuse... (none / 0) (#60)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 10:24:21 AM EST
    Violating Iraqi Women
    Yifat Susskind
    February 22, 2007
    The international news media is flooded with images of a woman in a pink headscarf recounting a shattering experience of rape by members of the Iraqi National Police. Most of the media coverage has focused on her taboo-breaking decision to speak publicly about the assault, but has missed two crucial points for understanding--and combating--sexual violence by Iraqi police recruits.

    As Iraqi women's organizations have documented, sexualized torture is a routine horror in Iraqi jails. While this woman may be the first Iraqi rape survivor to appear on television, she is hardly the first to accuse the Iraqi National Police of sexual assault. At least nine Iraqi organizations as well as Amnesty International, the U.N. Assistance Mission in Iraq and the Brussels Tribunal have documented the sexualized torture of Iraqi women while in police custody. These include Women's Will, Occupation Watch, the Women's Rights Association, the Iraqi League, the Iraqi National Association of Human Rights, the Human Rights' Voice of Freedom, the Association of Muslim Scholars, the Iraqi Islamic Party and the Iraqi National Media and Culture Organization.

    According to Iraqi human rights advocate and writer Haifa Zangana, the first question asked of female detainees in Iraq is, "Are you Sunni or Shia?" The second is, "Are you a virgin?"
    ...
    It's no surprise that we're hearing allegations of rape against the Iraqi National Police, considering who trained them. DynCorp, the private contractor that the Bush Administration hired to prepare Iraq's new police force for duty, has an ugly record of violence against women. The company was contracted by the federal government in the 1990s to train police in the Balkans. Human Rights Watch reports that DynCorp employees were found to have systematically committed sex crimes against women, including "owning" young women as slaves. One DynCorp site supervisor videotaped himself raping two women. Despite evidence, the contractors never faced criminal charges.

    Contrary to its rhetoric and its international legal obligations, the Bush Administration has refused to protect women's rights in Iraq. In fact, it has decisively traded women's rights for cooperation from the Islamists it has helped boost to power. Torture of women in detention is one symptom of this broader crisis.

    ----------
    The Bush War on Terror is in horrible reality a cowardly War on Women and Children, a War on Asian Women and Children and a War on Muslim Women and Children.


    If you see one (none / 0) (#61)
    by Edger on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 10:47:33 AM EST
    of these so-called :real men: - grab him by the scruff of his neck and rub his nose in his mess in the Middle East.

    Parent
    ppj (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 01:14:11 PM EST
    You're not really in the best position to dredge up peoples past comments.

    Jondee (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Feb 25, 2007 at 07:54:54 PM EST
    Fire at will.

    Parent