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McCain and Obama: War of Words

Barack Obama said:

I have concerns about cutting off funding . . . I think there is a possibility, given how obstinate the Administration is, that if we try to cut off funding, Bush is hellbent on doing what he is doing . . . he may decide to play chicken and say 'you guys do whatever you want [I'm keeping the troops there]' . . .

John McCain said:

When the President vetoes . . . I hope Democrats in Congress will heed the advice of . . . Senator Obama, and immediately pass a new bill to provide support to our troops in Iraq without substituting their partisan interests for those of our troops and our country.”

Obama replied:

“Progress in Iraq cannot be measured by the same ideological fantasies that got us into this war, it must be measured by the reality of the facts on the ground, and today those sobering facts tell us to change our strategy and bring a responsible end to this war."

"No matter how much this Administration wishes it to be true, the idea that the situation in Iraq is improving because it only takes a security detail of 100 soldiers, three Blackhawk helicopters, and two Apache gunships to walk through a market in the middle of Baghdad is simply not credible or reflective of the facts on the ground."

"What we need today is a surge in honesty. The truth is, the Iraqis have made little progress toward the political solution between Shiia and Sunni which is the last, best hope to end this war. I believe that letting the Iraqi government know America will not be there forever is the best way to pressure the warring factions toward this political settlement, which is why my plan begins a phased withdrawal from Iraq on May 1st, 2007, with the goal of removing all combat troops by March 31st, 2008."

What does Obama NOT say? He does not say that it is NOT his advice that the Congress:

immediately pass a new bill to provide support to our troops in Iraq . . .

Obama "reply" is a nonsequitor. The question is Senator Obama -- do you believe the Congress should, in the face of a Presidential veto of the Iraq supplemental funding bill, immediately pass a new bill to provide support to our troops in Iraq?

Yes or no. It seems a simple question to answer. I do not understand why it is so difficult for Senator Obama to give a straight answer to this question.

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    Here's your answer (5.00 / 5) (#1)
    by Categorically Imperative on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:13:04 PM EST
    I do not understand why it is so difficult for Senator Obama to give a straight answer to this question.

    Because despite his initially correct perception that we should not go to Iraq, Senator Obama is now working out of the same playbook that led the Senate Dems to sign off on the AUMF.

    Well (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:15:44 PM EST
    All I know is that if he wants to correct the alleged misperception about his comments and refute what McCain said, then he needs to say that McCain is not telling the truth about his position.

    Greg Sargent is wrong when he said McCaion dissembled. Bad show by Greg.

    Parent

    But as I'm sure you know (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by Categorically Imperative on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:23:06 PM EST
    He wants to correct the "alleged" misrepresentation without actually refuting the fact that what McCain said is an entirely accurate portrayal of Obama's position.  The non-denial denial.  Obama's position IS what McCain says it is.  

    Obama wants to deflect attention from that and onto his words while leaving himself the option of passing a no-strings-attached funding bill and still pretending to be willing to pressure the "administration" to pull the troops out.

    Like I said last thread, it's the audacity of empty rhetoric.  As the days go by, Obama offers more proof that he is a clown.  Perhaps it's good he's running now, though, as he seems to be polluted enough by Beltway views of "serious politicians" after a mere 2 1/4 years in office.

    Parent

    oh gawd yes, heavily polluted (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by fairleft on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:40:14 PM EST
    Anyway, there is the slight possibility someone who is sincere about putting pressure on Bush, very unlikely that is Obama, will propose a 3-4 month funding bill, no strings attached. That will technically satisfy Bush, but still keep pressure on.

    Parent
    True about the 3-4 month bill (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Categorically Imperative on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:51:15 PM EST
    But hard to see what that accomplishes.  I thought the real numbers indicated that current funding was sufficient thru July, anyway.  Which is the 3-4 month window right there.  Aside from which, what's the point of backing off now...does Obama (or whoever else) really need 80% disapproval of the war to think it's justified to stand up to Bush?  

    Don't get me wrong, I see your point but I'm heavily skeptical that support for a 3-4 month "no strings" bill is indicative of a sincere desire to keep the pressure on.  Almost by definition it alleviates pressure, while also setting the precedent that the Dems have caved before, and giving BushCo more time to mobilize the Wurlitzer to optimum effect.

    Parent

    well, assuming Dems have already (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by fairleft on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:02:39 PM EST
    caved on a no-strings-attached supplemental, then the next best thing is a short-term supplemental.

    Then, we need real antiwar pressure in the country so that those running next year will be forced to display their  support for the President closer to primaries and general elections.

    Of course, as long as the discourse in the U.S. MSM and both big parties is about whether or not you're "playing chicken with the troops" or "support the troops" ... there won't be enough antiwar pressure. The conversation needs to be changed, in the streets and on the campuses (I guess?), to something real.

    Parent

    Actually the Blue Dogs (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:43:44 PM EST
    have floated that idea.

    Parent
    You're speculating (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:24:45 PM EST
    I am asking questions.

    Parent
    Half and half (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Categorically Imperative on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:31:49 PM EST
    I'm (educatedly) speculating as to Obama's motives, but as to the content of his position I'm simply reading plain English.  What McCain said is wholly accurate on its face and any doubts should be erased by the fact that what Sargent termed Obama's "scorching response" entirely ducks the issue.  

    The reference to his own plan is particularly galling, as it isn't even on the agenda in the Senate.  If he wants to reference a counter-proposal to Bush's "no strings attached" offer, he should support Reid-Feingold, period.

    Parent

    Scorching red herring response (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:35:28 PM EST
    Are you supporting a presidential candidate? n/t (none / 0) (#12)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:37:34 PM EST
    He is for Chris Dodd (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:44:27 PM EST
    I think. All hail Dodd!!! Heh.

    Parent
    Let's see how long you are with Dodd. (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:59:44 PM EST
    Edwards is right around the corner.

    Parent
    I'll probably end up with Obama (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:02:00 PM EST
    once he shapes up.

    Parent
    And it's up to you (us) to get him in shape. (none / 0) (#26)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:08:40 PM EST
    I'm with Gore if he enters the race.  If not, well I'm going to have a hard time making a decision where to throw my support.

    Keep up the constructive criticism.

    Parent

    I'm keeping an open mind (4.66 / 3) (#16)
    by Categorically Imperative on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:46:05 PM EST
    My favorite of the bunch right now is Senator Dodd, with Gov. Richardson a close second.  I don't work for or with either campaign in any way, if that's what you mean.  Can Obama sway me?  Sure, but as far as I'm concerned right now he's an a hole and feverishly searching for a larger shovel.  

    Parent
    Our man Dodd (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:49:53 PM EST
    has a nice one coming up tonight. See my latest post.

    Parent
    Brilliant move by Dodd (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Categorically Imperative on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:54:40 PM EST
    Politically astute and in the service of a good end.  The only question is whether certain other candidates respond by feigning deafness or issuing a doublespeaking press release:  "Support the troops is doubleplusgood!"

    Parent
    Just trying to evaluate your "clown"... (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:56:09 PM EST
    measuring skills.  I did not suggest anything.  I just want to know if you have picked a clown to support.  Thanks for the answer to my question.

    Parent
    No problem (5.00 / 2) (#21)
    by Categorically Imperative on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:56:52 PM EST
    If I may ask, what does my answer tell you about my ClownDar?

    Parent
    I have liked Sen. Dodd for years. (5.00 / 2) (#25)
    by cal11 voter on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:05:25 PM EST
    He is no clown.  Actually none of the Dem presidential candidates are clowns IMHO.  But that doesn't mean that Dodd will win the Dem nomination.

    Parent
    True (5.00 / 2) (#27)
    by Categorically Imperative on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 03:11:04 PM EST
    The best thing about his chances for the nomination is that it's still early and a lot can change (which is never the best sign).

    Perhaps "clown" was a tad harsh, but suffice it to say that I am highly skeptical of Obama, who seems to be long on flash and short on substance.  Most of the public stands he takes reek of the triangulating, DLC-style politics that have harmed both the country and the Democratic Party over the last decade.  Faced with the platform and opportunity to truly lead, he has been a disappointment.  If Senator Dodd received half as much media play as Senator Obama, Iraq policy (and education policy, among others) would be much the better for it.

    Parent

    Do you have a link (none / 0) (#3)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:21:48 PM EST
    for Obama's "response"?  One paragraph in it appears to be identical to a comment he made before McCain's comments.

    Same as the McCain link (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:23:12 PM EST
    to Greg Sargent. I don't see the identical part.

    But I'll double check it.

    Do you think he responded to what McCain said about him BTW?

    Parent

    No idea. . . (none / 0) (#8)
    by LarryInNYC on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:25:57 PM EST
    I've been waiting to see a reply reported, your post is the first I've seen.  I did read the part about "reflective of reality" yesterday, however.

    It's a great opportunity for him to engage McCain and the administration directly on the war and I look forward to seeing how he does with it (assuming anyone outside the blogosphere is paying attention to McCain's comments).

    Parent

    He just did "reply" (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:35:03 PM EST
    with that non-reply.

    That you are questioning whether it was a reply is my conclusive evidence.

    I rest my case.

    Parent

    No overlap at all LArry (none / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 02:24:02 PM EST
    The kool aid is affecting your vision, heh.

    Parent
    Watch CNN... (none / 0) (#28)
    by Elise on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 06:47:55 PM EST
    "If he decides to veto it...my advice to Dems, ratchet up the pressure...work on other solutions that would reign in this President and his disastrous plan."

    Oh, and you can check out this comment I made here that has polling numbers in it for you to show you just how many Americans support defunding. The answer is...not a majority.

    Obama makes himself clear...stop obfuscating his position. Obama has said repeatedly that McCain is flat wrong and that Bush is flat wrong. And he's been repeating that on CNN for the last 3 hours...just so you know.

    Our love affair is over (none / 0) (#33)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:33:42 AM EST
    Obama has come between us. Now I really dislike him . . .

    Parent
    Straight answers (none / 0) (#29)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 08:36:23 PM EST
    Who needs to take stands and answer hard questions anyway? Obama has twice as many friends as everyone else.

    Forget the politics of personal destruction: Obama practices the politics of personal adoration. His candidacy is based not on policy but on identity, not on a record of political success but on personality. He wants everyone to be friends and offers himself as Pal Number One. He might as well be running for friend-maker in chief. On MySpace, he has collected more than 96,000 friends; if Facebook held an election today, he would undoubtedly win....

    Obama the friend. It's not exactly presidential, but it sounds pleasant enough. And for the hundreds of thousands of Obama supporters on Facebook and similar sites, it's the key to his popularity. They may be naïve about politics and confused about policy, but they seem to know what they want from a candidate: someone to "hang out" with, encourage, and generally not take too seriously. In Obama that's just what they've found. He's a man of the digital people, and a friendly one at that.

    If he's not careful they're going to take him apart on his strength - his fluffy pop idol popularity - just like this. Lightweight.

    Time for him to start backing it up with some courageous stands on the hard stuff before he permanently tarnishes his "brand".


    It's a bit late isn't it? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:01:23 PM EST
    If he had any "courageous stands" on anything he wouldn't have to start "coming up" with them because he runs into trouble. Everyone, his financial backers especially, would know what they were already and he wouldn't run into trouble. He'd just plain be in the race or not be in the race by now.

    IOW, he'll need them because he's never had them, and if he had them he wouldn't need them.

    He's got a problem...

    erm... (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Edger on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 09:03:12 PM EST
    That was a reply to you, Al-Abductee.

    Parent
    I don't like to be harsh on him (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Apr 11, 2007 at 10:34:26 PM EST
    like some here. I think he's got a stealth strategy and that he'd actually do great things as president. It's just that it's time for him to change course to keep ahead of the game. So I fundamentally disagree if you're saying you think he isn't capable of "courageous stands."

    Re al-Abductee - LOL I've been arabicized.

    Parent

    No - not 'saying' (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 07:49:29 AM EST
    just speculating. He may have. Truthfully, I don't know enough about him.

    I have a not always good habit of couching speculation as flat statement. I'll work on it, Al. ;-)

    Parent