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Bush Wants $100 Billion for Iraq But Will Veto 3.5 Billion in Farm Aid

President Bush believes in the War in Iraq but not in the plight facing our own country's farmers.

He's said he will veto the Iraq funding bill passed Thursday night by the House because it's not enough and comes with conditions. He wants more for Iraq. The bill authorizes $42.8 billion over the next two months.

He also says he will veto the $3.5 billion farm aid bill passed by the House today.

How is it that we have a President who wants to spend untold billions helping those in a foreign country but won't help those at home who need assistance, like the farmers and Katrina victims and those without health insurance? Why should we rebuild Iraq before rebuilding New Orleans?

If this is typical of all Republicans, it's time we vote them out for good.

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    Not helping Iraq (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by koshembos on Fri May 11, 2007 at 03:25:52 AM EST
    Bush doesn't want to help Iraq; he wants to continue to play war.

    I don't believe Bush wants to help/support anyone; he owes his supporters, e.g. Big Oil, Big Right, nothing except that.

    "helping those in a foreign country" (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Andreas on Fri May 11, 2007 at 04:11:22 AM EST
    Jeralyn wrote:

    we have a President who wants to spend untold billions helping those in a foreign country

    This is the official position of the regime. No, he and the Democrats who support the war do not care about the fate of the Iraqi people.

    It has been nothing but a transference of power (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Freewill on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:00:25 AM EST
    and money. I agree with koshembos comment but I don't believe he owes his supporters. If that were true why did so many southern Farmers support this preznit? Bush only wants funding for things that he and his selected few have their meat hooks into so that they can reap huge profits and become more power in the future.

    Freewill (1.00 / 0) (#17)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:41:51 AM EST
    Well, since you know so much, can you tell me who these people/corps/companies are?

    Parent
    Jim (none / 0) (#28)
    by Freewill on Fri May 11, 2007 at 11:15:46 AM EST
    Did I push some kind of button to make you so eager to defend this administration once again?

    Parent
    Freewill (1.00 / 0) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:29:46 PM EST
    No. I just asked for some information.

    You do have the list, don't you??

    Parent

    Don't call them farmers (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Che's Lounge on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:34:15 AM EST
    They are corporations. The US farmer is virtually extinct. I watched it happen.

    Che (none / 0) (#16)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:39:37 AM EST
    Not as much as you think, but to a large degree, yes.

    Parent
    jim (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:55:47 AM EST
     is at least honest enough to say he doesn't know whether it's a "good bill" or a "bad bill."

      His point is well-taken because we see an example of "Bush threatened to veto it, so I must support it despite not knowing who it will help and who it will hurt."

     Is it limited to to grants to "family farmers" to offset catastrophic losses? Will it provide subsidies to major corporations? Is there a lnkage between the allocations and political support for certain influential legislators? will certain provisions continue to encourage the continued unsustainable diversion of limited water supplies? Are environmental issues being considered so as not to continue to make "healthier" meat, produce and dairy less competive in the marketplace because the "unhealthy" producers are more insulated from market forces?

      I could go on and on with issues that I doubt anyone here even though about asking once they saw "Bush" and "veto" in the same sentence.

    Why the opposition to food imports? (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri May 11, 2007 at 09:29:42 AM EST
      Don't we think globally here? There is an argument that we contribute to impoverishment of people in less developed countries when we enact subsidies that make their farm products less competitive in the U.S. market.

      I agree that food,  along with energy, steel, and few other things are so vital that we must always endeavor to maintain domestic production capability but these are COMPLEX issues without easy answers and solutions that produce all good or all bad.

      My point remains that emotinal reactions without though rarely make good points and if they do it is just random luck. these reactions also often lead people to espouse positions that they might actually oppose if the thought about it.

    YES (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by Peaches on Fri May 11, 2007 at 09:56:41 AM EST
    There is this argument.

    There is also an argument that we contribute to the impoverishment (and the malnourishment] of people in less developed countries when we allow large conglomerate agriculture farms to produce for exports to more developed countries at the expense of local farmers growing food for the local communities. The Global pecuniary economy may not be a benefit to the less developed countries [or even the more developed one] is an argument I would make - especially the local or small farmers.


    Parent

    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri May 11, 2007 at 10:32:47 AM EST
     and because of our size, our policies have huge impact. It goes even further subsidized U.S. agricultural production can provide incentive for less developed nations to remove lands from the production of staple food crops to other products (maybe cocoa, coffee or tobacco-- or, who knows,  coca and poppies?) which can provide cash for the owners at the expense of local food production leading to more expensive and more scarce food in those places.

    Parent
    There is nothing (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:06:15 PM EST
    "wrong" with representtatives "representing" the interests (including "special" interests)of their individual districts.

      To answer Obey, I don't have a problem with it because that is a large part of the reason you are there and why we have a lowe house representing relatively small districts. The theory is that a whole lot of people competing for limited resources will compete and cmpromise and that the individual pursuit od individual district interests will diffuse resources in a "fair" (though not necessarily "rational") manner.

      What I have a problem with is pretending it's something that it's not-- black and white game of good guys v. bad guys, with "my guys" being altruistic common good advocates and the other guys being evil people out to enslave and impoverish.

      unlike some here, the congressmen quoted, to their credit, don't do that. They point out they are merely doing what they believe their district wants.

    Golden Rule #1 (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by Freewill on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:30:56 PM EST
    Rule #1 of the Carlyle/Government Counter Propagandist Training Manual states:
    When confronted with truthful statements about your identity, location, or purpose use divisive tactics. Try to make your opponent seem crazy or out of touch with reality. Question their motives and establish a negatively constructed adjective to their nature (see appendix A: Catch Phrases Used to Bring Discredit Upon Individuals). These negatively constructed phrases have been thoroughly tested by our K Street market research teams and are highly effective in turning any conversation you may be engaged in to your advantage. If you are engaged in a hot button topic on a news media show, don't answer your opponent's questions, simply attack their motives and character. This will ensure that we can accuse the media for being biased when they don't follow up on our allegations of the opponent's motivation or character. When the media outlet is diverted into looking at our opponent the hot button topic public interest drops and the public is redirected to learn more about our opponent instead of the actual topic at hand. This is how we control the media's agenda.

    Golden Rule #2:

    Attack everything your opponents stand for. Even though you might agree with some of their issues do not for once let your guard down. We have thoroughly mapped out our plans for World dominance. Whenever you divert from the "Message" and "Go off script" you open yourself and our message for attacks. We know better than you! You must Trust us and stay focused! Attack your opponents and every stance they take.

    Golden Rule #3:

    Do Not Watch any news other than Fox News. We have invested extreme amounts of money into the media so as to control the messages being delivered. We are close to completely destroying PBS and running any opposing voices away from the public being able to hear their messages. Listen to A.M radio talk shows, this is how we expect you to learn daily how to counter the Moonbat positions. In the evening watch our Flag Station Fox to see how the message of the day has been working for our cause.

    Jim if that's your real name? I could be all day answering the question about the companies that Bush is enriching. Do you actually think there are no connections to Bush/Cheney and company that have not been enriched by their decisions, policies, or actions? Wow, before you try to defend this administration connections, be careful of what you might learn and how much information you might actually get.

    Let me take a page out of your Counter-Propaganda manual (pg.22):

    "Always answer a question with a question. If your opponent doesn't answer your answer, it only diverts the debate and allows you to achieve the higher ground of the debate by proclaiming "You didn't answer my question". Research has proven it doesn't matter what questions you ask as your answer, only that you ask a question, period. We need for our agents to respond quickly and not look as if they are "uncertain" or "without an answer". Just ask a question and put your opponent on the defensive. Once they are on the defensive, Attack, thus controlling the conversation. We can then proclaim a bias if the media doesn't hold your opponent to answering the question you posed."
     

    Freewill (1.00 / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:00:59 PM EST
    Jim if that's your real name? I could be all day answering the question about the companies that Bush is enriching.

    It seems to me that if you are capable of charging the President of the US with such a crime that you would be capable of tossing off a few names and links, immediately.

    That you cannot merely proves that you are suffering  from an acute case of Bush Derangement Syndrome...

    BTW - You provide no link to your "book?" Got one??

    BTW - I loved this.


    Always answer a question with a question

    Uh.... I was the one asking the question... not you.

    Parent

    RE:Uh.. I was the one asking the question. not you (none / 0) (#100)
    by Freewill on Sat May 12, 2007 at 02:40:53 PM EST
    Precisely Jim. You should be honored that I have evolved because of your tutorledge. I have watched as you, the "Master Debater", have executed your craft with precision and cunning!

    Therefore, is it wrong of me to use one of the tactics of debate that I've learned from you and your book against you?

    Don't be mad, be glad your work here is not in vain!

    Parent

    D.A. I beg to differ (4.00 / 0) (#40)
    by Freewill on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:22:29 PM EST
    Pa-Paw Jim is a tax write off. He has to be paid in order for someone to receive the tax credit. The better the pay the better the deduction!

    Frogwog (1.00 / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:47:33 PM EST
    That's what happens when you get old and they make you live in a Palatial Retirement Compound...

    Please make sure you are paying your social security and medicare taxes...

    Excuse me now, I've got to call United and make sure they have a First Class seat for my trip to Vegas next week...

    Ta Ta!!


    Parent

    Farm Aid Bill? (1.00 / 1) (#6)
    by jarober on Fri May 11, 2007 at 06:50:59 AM EST
    There hasn't been a useful farm bill passed in decades.  It's time for farmers to live in the market system like the rest of us do.

    What? (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by mack on Fri May 11, 2007 at 07:59:22 AM EST
    It's time for farmers to live in the market system like the rest of us do.

    This will eventually lead to having a greater percentage of our primary food source outsourced to foreign countries.

    Food imports are already on the rise at alarming levels.

    There are certain things a country should keep "in-house"; the food source is one of these things.

    U.S. food imports rarely inspected

    The one thing in this country I have no problem with in regards to subsidies is the farming industry; personally, I think it's in the interest of national security.

    Parent

    mmmmm . . ... (5.00 / 4) (#23)
    by nolo on Fri May 11, 2007 at 09:42:07 AM EST
    . . . melamine.  It's what's for dinner.

    Parent
    RE (none / 0) (#11)
    by mack on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:11:35 AM EST
    I would like to add that I don't mind farm subsidies as long as they are being used correctly.

    I'm sure some smart-a** is bound to come by, see my post, and link to a few articles that show how farm subsidies only benefit this group or that group and do more harm than good.  If that's the problem then the solution involves fixing the distribution of the subsidies, not eliminating subsidies altogether.

    My point is that completely eliminating farm subsidies would force the farmers in the US to compete in the global economy and would result in increasing reliance on foreign countries for food supplies.


    Parent

    mack (none / 0) (#13)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:29:08 AM EST
    Like most Congresspeople I do not know what is in the bill.

    I would assume that Dear Leader has snuck back in aid for the farmers who had the "pollution" problem that ended up in Taco Bell.

    And unlike the vast majority of you, I was raised on a farm, and have real sympathy for those who live and work on them.

    But, the truth is that much of what is here is pure pork keeping people in business growing things that should not be subsidized. i.e. Cotton and tobacco.

    And then I'm sure there are grants to the states for "native lands" and "soil banks."

    Like the war on drugs, farm aid needs a good scrub and rationalization. Maybe the Demos have done something useful after all.

    Parent

    Shouldn't you have stopped right there? (5.00 / 3) (#18)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:43:38 AM EST
    Like most Congresspeople I do not know what is in the bill.

    Just asking!



    Parent

    MB (none / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:22:13 PM EST
    When Congress stops let me know...

    Parent
    The bills are available on the web. (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:15:41 PM EST
    You have sympathy for farmers ;)? (none / 0) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 11, 2007 at 11:59:48 AM EST
    I had to spend my summers working on my family's farms and ranches.  I just love you Jim, you have warm fuzzies about military service and you have sympathy for farmers.  I have no sympathy for my Uncle running around his fields in his shiny red air conditioned Combine listening to his satellite radio while he waits for his wife to radio him that dinner is on the table!  He's hardly plowing with a damned ox.

    Parent
    Tracy (none / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:28:34 PM EST
    Tracy... works for me, as I noted in my reply to mack.

    Like the war on drugs, farm aid needs a good scrub and rationalization. Maybe the Demos have done something useful after all.

    And if you didn't like working in the summers, let me assure you that you would have liked it even less at 5AM when the temp was 20F and snow and blowing snow was in the air.

    Parent

    Oh that, that was feeding (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:06:46 PM EST
    during Christmas vacation.  I like doing it.  So you are posting some place in the Colorado Springs area huh?  You know I'm from there?  My family farms and ranches in Rush, CO 30 miles East of Colorado Springs.  I also lived in Wyoming for awhile where feeding is -20F in the blowing snow.  In Colorado though 20F in the blowing snow is about right so are you a native to the area you are in?  

    Parent
    Great Idea!!! (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by kdog on Fri May 11, 2007 at 09:18:32 AM EST
    If we really believed in a free market, farmers would be free to grow reefer and hemp and bring it to market...then they wouldn't need aid.

    Until then, I support aiding our farmers as a national security issue.  Our nation won't be secure if our farming is exported and our farmland is converted to strip malls.  We are already dependent on other countries for our energy, lets not be food-dependent as well.

    Parent

    which market system? (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Sailor on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:33:47 PM EST
    It's time for farmers to live in the market system like the rest of us do.
    You mean like the one exxon lives in? Or the one enron lived in? Or the one SAIC lives in? etc, etc etc.

    And there's a huuuuge difference between what small farmers get and what agribusiness gets.

    And folks who want to outsource our food deserve to starve.

    Parent

    I have farmers and ranchers in my family (none / 0) (#35)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 11, 2007 at 11:53:47 AM EST
    so I know that there is a nugget of truth in your post along with a nugget of untruth.  I haven't read the bill word for word, have you?  Not sure what sort of Farm Aid is in the bill.

    Parent
    Tracy (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:11:13 PM EST
    What comment are you speaking of??

    My Father was a sharecropper and I was raised very poor. After the war he used the GI Bill to educate himself, bought his own farm and worked full time farming and "in town." He helped organize a Teamsters local and never knew there was a politican outside the Democratic party until 1968 when the radical Left caused him to quit voting. (He would never vote for a Repub.) I exited in 1968, gave the Demos a second chance in 1976, and have tried to live down that shameful display of lack of good judgement and commonsene by being an Independent since.

    I worked on the farm and "in town" through high school. My first social security payments were in 1952, and I paid in continualy until 2003. The last 35 years was always the "maximum."

    But trust me. Having them "in the family" and "being one" is two separate things.

    And, as I said, I haven't read the bill, and I would guess most of Congress hasn't either except to be sure their "pet" program is covered.

    So I guess I can comment about Farm Things with some degree of understanding of how they were.


    Parent

    Fair enough (none / 0) (#58)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:21:18 PM EST
     

    Parent
    Farm aid loss will be your fault (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:10:52 AM EST
    If the Democrats in the House are concerned over the farmers, they can easily pass a separate bill.

    And in fact, that is what they will wind up doing because holding farm aid hostage to a political fight is politically stupid.

    BTW - Two things:

    1. Don't tell me it is the Pres fault because, as you havetold us time and again, all spending bills originate in the house. So there is no excise to not do the funding.

    2. Most of this money is for large farmers. The Left has screamed for years about this very thing. Where, I ask, is your consistency??

    Oh. I just found it . The Demo leadership has stolen it. They are consistently demanding to surrender and leave Iraq.


    jim, do you ever read first before responding? (5.00 / 3) (#12)
    by conchita on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:24:21 AM EST
    they passed two separate bills.  it's bush who is stealing american taxpayers dollars to finance an occupation and pad the profits of his cronies.  when will it take for you to realize what a disgrace this administration is?

    Parent
    No he doesn't read before posting. (5.00 / 3) (#19)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:48:34 AM EST
    Its not necessary. Jim just defends Bush and Republicans reflexively. He is NOT, however, a Republican and Jim gets very indignant when you suggest he is.



    Parent

    MB (1.00 / 1) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:13:36 PM EST
    Did you ever consider just how awful the current group of Demos are if an Independent will defend Bush??

    Parent
    Eye of the beholder (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:21:13 PM EST
    I like most of the Democrats even if I don't agree with every single one on every single issue. According to the latest polls, most Americans agree with the Democrats.

    Its just you Jim. ;-)



    Parent

    You are not an Independent ;) (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:23:21 PM EST
    You are a Neocon.  My husband is an Independent.  Course opinions are only opinions.

    Parent
    Tracy (1.00 / 1) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 02:24:56 PM EST
    I realize you are young and probably remember the Cold War through what you have been taught in history class or told.

    So I just want you to know a few things.

    First, I have never heard of a neocon being for national health care, gay marriage, women's rights or rationalization of the drug war...

    Secondly, being a liberal on the above issues and for a strong defense is perfectly possible.

    Parent

    But if you are for a strong defense (5.00 / 4) (#77)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri May 11, 2007 at 03:13:21 PM EST
    why do you reflexively defend Bush, and the Neo cons? They are terrible on national defense and security issues. I keep reminding you of this and you keep forgetting!

    Also many of the star neo-cons have liberal views on social issues. They just happen to like empires and are clueless on issues of national security or foreign affairs.



    Parent

    The term itself was originally neoliberal. (5.00 / 2) (#78)
    by Edger on Fri May 11, 2007 at 03:28:35 PM EST
    IMO, it should be 'neoliars' (5.00 / 2) (#79)
    by Edger on Fri May 11, 2007 at 03:41:27 PM EST
    A Neoliberal? (5.00 / 1) (#80)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 11, 2007 at 03:45:14 PM EST
    Really?  I can't get the two ideas to marry in my mind.  Is that someone who wants to be fully liberated to dominate the world?  I'm for a strong defense, I'm for a strong military....but my opinion of what constitutes a strong defense and a strong military what defines a strong defense and military with the Neos are two completely different things totally alien to each other.

    Parent
    Neoliberal Because (5.00 / 3) (#81)
    by squeaky on Fri May 11, 2007 at 03:53:50 PM EST
    They were liberals that became radical, right wing radicals. They believe the left has become the conservative right, and therefore some define themselves as left wing radicals.  

    Altogether convolued like their belief that war is the optimum state of existance.

    Parent

    Learn something new every day (none / 0) (#83)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 11, 2007 at 04:11:42 PM EST
    Today I learned it from squeaky and Edger.  Time out for a chuckle.......my brother-in-law is in the Air Force and a Neocon and I'm not sure that he knows from where the seed has sprung forth ;)?  It pays to be naive about some things.  I don't have to read as much.  You guys give it to me condensed.

    Parent
    Thom Hartmann (none / 0) (#91)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri May 11, 2007 at 05:28:53 PM EST
    was discussing this point- what we call Neo Conservative is known elsewhere as Neo Liberal- just this past week.



    Parent

    You'll often hear ppj (5.00 / 2) (#82)
    by Edger on Fri May 11, 2007 at 03:55:51 PM EST
    protest that he used to be a democrat but that the left drove him away.

    Operation Comeback:

    TO: My Fellow Neoconservatives
    FROM: Joshua Muravchik
    RE: How to Save the Neocons

    We neoconservatives have been through a startling few years. Who could have imagined six years ago that wild stories about our influence over U.S. foreign policy would reach the far corners of the globe? The loose group of us who felt impelled by the antics of the 1960s to migrate from the political left to right must have numbered fewer than 100. And we were proven losers at Washington's power game: The left had driven us from the Democratic Party, stolen the "liberal" label, and successfully affixed to us the name "neoconservative."

    Muravchik has yet to understand that he and the rest of the neocons were losers, are losers, and always will be losers.

    But they will try to take down as many people as they can while remaining losers. Since they cannot lift themselves, their strategy is always to try to drag the world down to their level.

    Parent

    Another way of looking at them is that (5.00 / 2) (#84)
    by Edger on Fri May 11, 2007 at 04:20:16 PM EST
    they seem to do their utmost to "deconstruct" liberal democracy built by true liberalism, to build a society with only their own benefit in mind. And one of the problems that their belief that war is the optimum state of existence results in is what they excuse as 'Collateral Damage'.

    Parent
    Of course, another one of my (5.00 / 1) (#85)
    by Militarytracy on Fri May 11, 2007 at 04:40:19 PM EST
    BIL's favorite wordings.  Collateral Damage is fine until it happens to you, but it can't happen to him because he's too special or something ;(  He's the one flying the plane.  I guess nobody else has planes and bombs too.

    Parent
    Yeah... (5.00 / 3) (#86)
    by desertswine on Fri May 11, 2007 at 04:50:31 PM EST
    who can forget this gem?

    "I adopted the "Social" part to distinguish myself from the "Left Wingers" who have, with the aid of the Repubs, stolen the term "Liberal." Some call themselves "hard Liberals" based on their stance on National Defense and the war on terror."

    He's textbook.

    Parent

    ::Neoliars:: (5.00 / 0) (#87)
    by Edger on Fri May 11, 2007 at 04:52:57 PM EST
    No thanks (1.00 / 0) (#95)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:06:23 PM EST
    Since I am not one, why should I care about advice from one??

    Go read some more Juan Cole and MoveOn, edger.

    Parent

    MB (1.00 / 0) (#94)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:04:04 PM EST
    Because Bush is for a proactibe preemptive defense.

    In the age we live in we cannot afford fellow travelers set our national defense.

    Parent

    MB (none / 0) (#88)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 05:05:46 PM EST
    That you say so doesn't make it true.

    The Demos have a history in the past 40 years that is terrible in defense. And yes, many Repubs joined them.

    In the WOT the basic differences between Bush and the Demos has, and is, the Demos argue for a classic criminal justice defense, while Bush believes that you can no longer wait until the attack is over before you start looking.

    Even Richard Clarke said:

    CLARKE: No, it came up in April and it was approved in principle and then went through the summer. And you know, the other thing to bear in mind is the shift from the rollback strategy to the elimination strategy. When President Bush told us in March to stop swatting at flies and just solve this problem, then that was the strategic direction that changed the NSPD from one of rollback to one of elimination.

    QUESTION: Well can you clarify something? I've been told that he gave that direction at the end of May. Is that not correct?

    CLARKE: No, it was March.

    Link

    Parent

    That you say so doesn't make it true. (5.00 / 3) (#92)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri May 11, 2007 at 05:35:10 PM EST
    The Demos have a history in the past 40 years that is terrible in defense. And yes, many Repubs joined them.

    Eye of the beholder- again.

    I agree the Democratic party (LBJ) was bad on Vietnam, though that was not necessairly as harmful to the national defense as Iraq is in general and Bush and the Neo-Cons are in particular.  

    I would dispute you on the era post Vietnam as would most serious historians.  



    Parent

    B (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:10:03 PM EST
    You would do what???

    Can you spell 19 years of Repub Presidents since 1980??

    Reagan fought tooth and toenail for a strong military after Carter destroyed it.

    Looking reality in the eye is not one of your strong points.

    Parent

    Repeat it often enough (5.00 / 2) (#97)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri May 11, 2007 at 10:00:38 PM EST
    and people will believe it regardless of accuracy.

    Who wanted more MX missles? Reagan or Carter?
    Who lifted the grain embargo? Reagan or Carter?
    Who first sent sent weapons to the Afghanis? Reagan or Carter?
    Whose National Security Council articulated a goal of forcefully changing the character of Nicaragua's Sandinista regime? Reagan or Carter?

    Jimmy Carter, like it or not, began rebuilding the military after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Post Vietnam and prior to the Soviet invasion, there was not a consensus to increase military expenditures.



    Parent

    MB (1.00 / 1) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 12, 2007 at 09:58:25 AM EST
    And who did these things?

    Reagan.

    Parent

    Reagan can't begin something (5.00 / 3) (#99)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat May 12, 2007 at 10:24:59 AM EST
    that started before he was in office. He can only complete the work. Sorry to disappoint you. You are merely repeating bar room conventional wisdom.

    You should re-examine your apriori beliefs.

    After the military build up during the Vietnam era, it was inevitable that military spending would de-escalate post Vietnam (or any war for that matter). Jimmy Carter happened to be in office during that period. That doesn't mean he was anti-military. Nor is Jimmy Carter representative of all Democrats, nor was JC a liberal Democrat. If any thing, during his tme in office he was a moderate to conservative Democrat. You claim to be a moderate- JC is closer to you, than to me. JC was challenged in the primaries in 1980 by the liberal wing of the party.

    As for your other points about 19 years of GOP occupying the White House since 1980. I hate tell you, but 7 of those years include  GWB presiding over Iraq and the hollowing out of our military. Leaves you 12 years to compare with 8 years of WJC. Bill left GWB an army capable of taking out the Taliban with ease.

    Minor detail that.

    In short a serious historian would take all of that into account before drawing any conclusions.

    On the other hand, Reagan mythologists and bar room philosphers don't need history, they go with their gut (like Stpehen Colbert, but not as funny).

    Reagan mythologists conveniently ignore Reagan's cutting and running from Lebanon in 1982 and the fact there were several hostage crises in the ME during his tenure, which he did nothing about. Didn't invade, didn't threaten. Reagan  ignored them. They were inconvenient to him then and they remain inconvenient to his hagiograhpers today.

    Which returns us to my original premise. George Bush and the  Neo-cons are clueless and terrible on issues of foreign policy and national security. Sensible national security voters  don't support them.  Idealogues on the other hand...



    Parent

    You got me :-() (1.00 / 0) (#15)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 08:38:51 AM EST
    You got me.

    I totally missed the two bills.

    I should have known not even the Demos would not have been that dumb...

    Read my response to mack.

    And speaking of rationalization, it is almost two years. How long do you thing we should use the Katrina card to buy votes? don't you think LA is safely Demicratic?

    Parent

    Its not the Dems, it is the voters (none / 0) (#33)
    by MiddleOfTheRoad on Fri May 11, 2007 at 11:45:31 AM EST
    It is we the voters who are demanding that we surrender in Iraq.  The Dems are simply following the wishes of those who elect them.

    Furthermore, the voters are fed up with the false bravado of the chickenhawks in the Bush administration.  Macho talk and swagger has led us nowhere.

    When did Cheney last declare that he would hunt down the last insurgent in Iraq?

    Parent

    really depressing. (none / 0) (#1)
    by the rainnn on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:39:01 AM EST
    simply sad, on so many levels. . .

    but i am grateful for the information. . .

    it belongs on bill-boards, all across america.

    Looks like we have the votes (none / 0) (#2)
    by andgarden on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:45:02 AM EST
    in the House to override the veto for the Farm Aid. . .

    Pelosi: IMPEACH THIS PSYCHO. (none / 0) (#3)
    by Pneumatikon on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:28:07 AM EST
    What the hell is wrong with you?

    During the state visit (none / 0) (#7)
    by HK on Fri May 11, 2007 at 06:57:39 AM EST
    from the Queen, Bush said in one of his speeches that the UK and the US were together "supporting young democracies in Iraq and Afghanistan".

    Hmmmm.  And here we are thinking that all that is going on is a prolonged, expensive and futile game of toy soldiers.  How could we?

    $100 Billion (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Fri May 11, 2007 at 10:21:20 AM EST
    buys a lot of "convenience", I suppose.

    [Dick] Morris: It's `Convenient' To Keep U.S. Troops In Iraq So Terrorists Can Kill Them `Around The Corner'

    President Bush has repeatedly argued that the United States needs to "eliminate terrorist threats abroad, so we do not have to face them here at home."

    [Monday] night on Hannity and Colmes, right-wing pundit Dick Morris also claimed that we need to keep U.S. troops in Iraq so that terrorists don't come to the United States. But he argued that we need to put "Americans right within their [terrorists'] arms' reach" so that they have the opportunity to "kill Americans" there. He added that therefore, "they don't have to come to Wall Street to kill Americans. They don't have to knock down the Trade Center. They can do it around the corner, and convenience is a big factor when you're a terrorist."

    Think Progress has the video.

    How else can continuing the occupation of Iraq be justified unless more attacks on Americans are created?

    I'm not sure, freewill, if (none / 0) (#30)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri May 11, 2007 at 11:30:06 AM EST
      that post is meant to make us:

    fear jim for being a "secret agent" (albeit with the least important assignment of all-time)?

    be funny?

    question your sanity?

     

    Never fear, that's how terrorist want us to live (5.00 / 0) (#32)
    by Freewill on Fri May 11, 2007 at 11:43:37 AM EST
    I just wanted to give props to Jim so that Karen Hughes knows that he is doing his job well!

    Don't ever allow yourself to be put into living in fear! Those who always remind us that we need to be fearful prey on those of us that allow fear to control us.

    If you find fear developing in your mind here is a trick I learned: I simply take myself back to a time where life was simpler and I watch this.

    As for questioning my sanity? That's something I do every second of the day! I've always been intrigued by this thought: "Are the sane ones who proclaim others to be insane really the insane ones who fear the sane?"

    Parent

    He was probably just checking (4.00 / 0) (#31)
    by Edger on Fri May 11, 2007 at 11:34:07 AM EST
    to see if you had a you had a sense of humor, decoy. ;-)

    Parent
    Decon (1.00 / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:42:02 PM EST
    Yeah, that's what happens when you get old.

    Just call me ROF 007.

    Parent

    You question your sanity (4.00 / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:51:54 PM EST
    when you get old? You must still be pretty young then?

    Parent
    yY know, jim, (none / 0) (#70)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri May 11, 2007 at 02:23:48 PM EST
     I don't know what your secret agent  manual says, but it seems to me that if discrediting the Left (as opposed to just amusing yourself in your retirement by stirring the pot)  is your goal you are going about it all wrong.

      You should adopt the positions of the Left but then express yourself as if you are extremely ignorant, irrational and possibly unhinged. Write tona and tons of inane rambling nonsense and then lash out violently any time anyone challenges you.

      Think  about it. Does espousing right-wing propaganda do any real good here? On the other hand, if people read things purportedly from the Left that sound incredibly stupid and are combined with unmistakable authoritarian overtones,  THAT might actually give some people pause. (Or are your putative "enemeies" here actually working for you as secret double agents?)

    Parent

    Decon (1.00 / 0) (#73)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 02:34:09 PM EST
    THAT might actually give some people pause. (Or are your putative "enemeies" here actually working for you as secret double agents?)

    Nope. They are real. No one could invent'em.

    Parent

    Of course YOU would say THAT. (none / 0) (#74)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri May 11, 2007 at 02:39:13 PM EST
      That's in the manual too, isn't it?

    Parent
    Shhhhh! (1.00 / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 05:08:34 PM EST
    No one but Rove, Cheney and Bush know.

    ;-)

    Parent

    That (none / 0) (#34)
    by Edger on Fri May 11, 2007 at 11:49:09 AM EST
    would be a subsidized gardener. In spite of Bush's veto.

    Yeah, I agree (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by Freewill on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:00:02 PM EST
    Regardless of the outcome of this 3.5 bil Bill it will effect Jim's lively hood and everyone elses for that matter. Maybe this is why he is so quick to respond with his attack messages? If his boss can no longer afford a private gardener, Jim might not be employed by him any longer? Scary thought!

    Parent
    From the USA Today: (none / 0) (#41)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:27:56 PM EST
    WASHINGTON -- Three months after promising to curtail spending on pet legislative projects, House Democrats have salted the Iraq emergency spending bill with $3.7 billion for farm interests that make significant donations to Democrats.


    got a link? (none / 0) (#45)
    by Sailor on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:37:44 PM EST
    Speaking of Dairy Farms (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:43:38 PM EST
    Got Google???

    Parent
    But of course (none / 0) (#49)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:43:42 PM EST
    Link (none / 0) (#51)
    by squeaky on Fri May 11, 2007 at 12:53:35 PM EST
    Added on as an afterthought to this very baised USA Today article.
    Last year, the Republican-controlled Congress added $4 billion in farm aid to a $97 billion emergency Iraq bill, but the Bush administration negotiated to cut the farm aid to $400 million.

    Biased because it suggests that the Democrats are the only ones getting donations from lobbiests. It gives dollar amounts received by dems from farmers but mentiones no a word about the money that the same group gave to Republicans.

    From the same source as the article The Center for Responsive
    Politics
    we find out that the Republicans were given more than twice the amount as Democrats by the Agribusiness lobby.

    Parent

    Ah (none / 0) (#62)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:33:16 PM EST
    so the Dems take money from special interest Ag lobbies, but hey, so do the Repubs - in fact they take more!

    You've convinced me, the Dems are the good guys and the Repubs are not.

    Parent

    Your Link (none / 0) (#63)
    by squeaky on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:35:57 PM EST
    make up whatever truisms you like, my point was that your linked article was misleading at best.

    Parent
    Too funny (none / 0) (#65)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:46:36 PM EST
    The USA Today article was in no way misleading.

    It explained who was going to get the pork from this Ag bill (indeed, the very Ag bill this thread is about) and why.

    If you want the USA Today to write an all together different article about overall Ag lobby donations to each party - because that is the point you wish to make - feel free to ask them to do so.

    Parent

    No way misleding? (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by squeaky on Fri May 11, 2007 at 01:58:19 PM EST
    It that because your partisanship has made you blind?

    The article states that Democrats have attached farm subsidies to the Iraq funding bill because they have been bribed. The misleading is that the Republicans have clean hands compared to the Democrats. I fail to see how this would be a "different" article had they mentioned that Republicans accepted twice as much money as the dems from the agribusiness lobby.

    Parent

    Although I probably wouldn't use the word (none / 0) (#69)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 11, 2007 at 02:20:11 PM EST
    The article states that Democrats have attached farm subsidies to the Iraq funding bill because they have been bribed.
    "bribed," I think that your's is an excellent recap of the article.

    The article was not a comparison article of Dem v Repub's "hand cleanliness" (as you seem to think it should have been).

    Instead it - very accurately, factually and without bias - described who got the pork from this bill that's in the news today and why.

    I really can't say it any clearer than that.

    Parent

    Really? (none / 0) (#72)
    by squeaky on Fri May 11, 2007 at 02:30:00 PM EST
    If the article was in any way balanced and fair you would not have used it to bash Democrats.

    Parent
    "bash Democrats?" Good God. (none / 0) (#75)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri May 11, 2007 at 02:46:51 PM EST
    The article states the facts about the bill accurately, truthfully and w/o bias.

    That you find the truth distasteful is not something I can help you with.

    I don't think there is anything left to say.

    Parent

    Sure Thing (4.00 / 0) (#76)
    by squeaky on Fri May 11, 2007 at 03:01:45 PM EST
    Your honest intention saves your argument and the article it is based on with life-raft that is cast in lead.  

    Parent
    Hey Decon!! (1.00 / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri May 11, 2007 at 05:12:24 PM EST
    Do you think I could invent the above??

    Parent
    Please do not (none / 0) (#68)
    by Jeralyn on Fri May 11, 2007 at 02:14:01 PM EST
    post information about IP addresses of other commenters or quote or restate information in deleted comments.

    Thank you.