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Still Waiting For The Godot Republicans

Meteor Blades comments:

The optimists hope that by September enough Republicans will be in boiling water that they will join enough Democrats to pass some kind of out-of-Iraq bill of the sort we haven't seen yet, or who will just cut off funding by not voting for any bill.

I think the first option - call it the Obama plan - is highly unlikely, but possible.

I think the second option - call it the Armando plan - is not possible, even though it is the one I would favor were I a Congressman or Senator.

So rounding up Republicans will be easier than holding the line with Democrats? Okaaaaaay. Let me remind my good friend MB what Krugman wrote today:

What we need to realize is that the infamous “Bush bubble,” the administration’s no-reality zone, extends a long way beyond the White House. Millions of Americans believe that patriotic torturers are keeping us safe, that there’s a vast Islamic axis of evil, that victory in Iraq is just around the corner, that Bush appointees are doing a heckuva job — and that news reports contradicting these beliefs reflect liberal media bias. And the Republican nomination will go either to someone who shares these beliefs, and would therefore run the country the same way Mr. Bush has, or to a very, very good liar.

The GOP base will hold the line on all Republicans. They will never ever break with Bush.

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    Maybe (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Edger on Fri May 18, 2007 at 07:51:42 PM EST
    he forgets the legend that if you put a republican, sorry, I mean a frog, in water and heat it slowly you can get it to the boiling point and he won't jump out. He'll cook.

    Golly (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by JanL on Fri May 18, 2007 at 08:21:09 PM EST
    That was my question MB answered, well sort of answered. He did say cripes, indeed.  I just listened to Glenn Greenwald, Lawrence Tribe, and Bruce Fein on a radio show from yesterday re: the Comey testimony.  Between Iraq and whatever domestic wiretapping that went on (impeachable high crimes was their consensus) it seems pretty clear Democrats will be in real hot water by the end of the summer if they don't act with courage.  I cannot imagine why they are being so tepid.  Of course, I am one of those idiot liberals.


    Heh (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 18, 2007 at 08:31:40 PM EST
    I've read this from him before but today, after all I have said comes to fruition, it galls me somewhat to have the silliness continue.

    It seems even the smart ones like MB will never ever learn.  

    Parent

    Seems to me that MB understands (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 08:36:17 PM EST
    just fine. He just wants to avoid saying that there's nothing left to be done.

    Do you disagree, after what we've seen, that the Reid-Feingold-McGovern framework just isn't going to move forward?

    Parent

    Except that (none / 0) (#6)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 08:37:31 PM EST
    he's off on the question of relative ease. You are obviously correct that it's much easier to not fund than to override a veto with Republican votes.

    Parent
    Your second comment (5.00 / 5) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 18, 2007 at 08:49:49 PM EST
    saves me the trouble of responding to the first.

    Some chance is better than no chance.

    This has been my mantra since January.

    The waste of time and political capital on the4 house Supplemental was roundly condemned by me because I knew  it led to today. If instead we had all worked towards the not funding option for the past 4 months and knew that had to be the endgame and acted accordingly, we would not be where we are today.

    IT is why I was`so harsh on it, on Move On, on MYDD and all the fools who called US delusional.

    I point you to in particular my post, The Perfect v. The Useless.

    The snottiness of ther Harolod Meyersons, Tom Matzzies, Matt Stollers, Mahablogs et al was extremely gtallling when I knew how incredibly stupid they all were.

    If the stakes were not so enormous, it would give me great satisfaction to stick the crow down their throats. Their attitudes were insufferable.

    Parent

    I think we're drifting (5.00 / 3) (#11)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:00:36 PM EST
    And I find absolutly no satisfaction in all of this. It's like October 2005 and the Roberts nomination all over again, except that this time we're supposedly in the majority.

    Parent
    We can work for defunding option now, (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by fairleft on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:46:16 AM EST
    but we couldn't work for it 4 months ago. Now that Nancy et al have played the game the way they wanted to and see that they can't get anything going with Bush and his loyal Republicans. And they never will, I think they see that now (they didn't a few months ago, and a lot good Dems didn't either).

    What Nancy P did had to be done. And that was a helluva good short-leash bill she got through the House.

    Now the Dems are where we antiwarriors want them to be: between their angry base and a no-compromise President.

    So now, I hope, the leadership may have to start speaking the magical mantra: "We sent a bill up to Bush that funded the troops and he vetoed it. We sent him another and he vetoed it. He vetoed the funds, so he's responsible for defunding the troops." And that will be the end of the story, the end of the U.S. in Iraq.

    Hopefully they can get even Obama to toe the party line and quit pursuing his mythical '16 wobbly Republicans'.

    Parent

    fairleft (none / 0) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:51:26 AM EST
    The problem you have is that the public understands that the purpose of the bill is to defund the war and put a date on withdrawal.

    That isn't acceotable, so the Demos will take the hit.

    BTW - I understand you aren't going to understand, or like the above, but is just the truth.

    Parent

    The polls say it's acceptable, (5.00 / 1) (#149)
    by fairleft on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:00:20 PM EST
    but the Democratic leadership must push it. It can't whimp out and/or go into disarray mode.

    The Dems should do whatever they can to pass a short-leash, short-term funding bill. The Repubs and Bush can then legitimately be blamed for refusing the funding. And we'll be out of Iraq!

    Parent

    Same thread (5.00 / 1) (#127)
    by JanL on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:50:36 AM EST
    MB says he thinks your plan is impossible now (though he has always liked it) and prolly impossible in September.  Because there is no profanity on this site, all I can say is GAH.  We don't need any stinkin Repub's for this, only Dems.  Herding cats gives me a headache!  

    Parent
    I think the Obama "plan" is impossible (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 08:24:37 PM EST
    therefore, we're stuck.

    Alas (5.00 / 4) (#15)
    by squeaky on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:08:01 PM EST
    It has to get much, much, worse before there could a revolution.

    That is a problem.

    Parent

    Revolution? (5.00 / 4) (#17)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:17:06 PM EST
    I'd stand for a Democratic party doing its job.

    Parent
    I Dunno (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by squeaky on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:22:25 PM EST
    They are all dependent on big doners and the doners are all the same.

    That is why it sucks.

    Otherwise the dems would step up to the plate and take a stand agaisnt the war and defund it.

    Parent

    There are a variety of big donors (none / 0) (#19)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:26:11 PM EST
    and I would venture that most of them arent keen on staying in Iraq. I mean, why not just give your money to Republicans?

    Parent
    Puzzling Out Pelosi (5.00 / 3) (#22)
    by Edger on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:33:19 PM EST
    In fact, most of the media coverage has dropped any mention of the very idea of including a deadline.  And most of the media coverage has never mentioned the bill's inclusion, both in its previous version and the latest draft, of a requirement that Iraq pass an oil law expected to transfer control of much of that country's oil to U.S. corporations.  The peace movement, as well as Democratic Party Astroturf-roots groups masquerading as a peace movement, are well aware of the oil law, but are not saying much.  The new bill, like the old one, does nothing to oppose an aggressive attack on Iran.
    link

    Parent
    It's easy to see a conspiracy (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:37:45 PM EST
    You'll notice that the Iran question was put to its own vote, and failed. I tend not to have the fixation on oil that others do, though it's obviously an issue.

    Parent
    She may be (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:44:19 PM EST
    confident that Iraq will reject the oil law.

    Parent
    CS Monitor today (5.00 / 3) (#38)
    by Edger on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:24:48 PM EST
    has a decent article about the Iraq oil law here.

    Parent
    The House Voted Down A Separte Bill To (5.00 / 2) (#103)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:11:24 AM EST
    prohibit the use of funds for military action against Iran. It failed by a vote of 202 to 216. 29 Democrats voted against the bill. I wrote a diary on it yesterday that has the Hall of Shame and other info. if you are interested.    [http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/5/7/17146/37930]

    Parent
    Good Point (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by squeaky on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:37:32 PM EST
    I mean, why not just give your money to Republicans?
    Although I could never do it, way too gross for me.

    But I think that there is always more money to be made during a war where big money is spent on military stuff. And the democrats wamt to use the war as a much as the republicans.

    Isn't that why the troops are still in Iraq, The Dems don't want to give the thugs the credit for ending the war. so they keep it goung.

    Wasn't lt Hilary's talking point that she would end the war if elected  president?

    Parent

    Well, I'm not the sort who (none / 0) (#25)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:39:56 PM EST
    wets the bed over AIPAC. In other words, I do believe that a Democratic President would get us out of Iraq.

    Parent
    In 2010 (5.00 / 4) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:44:10 PM EST
    With several.... (5.00 / 2) (#126)
    by kdog on Sat May 19, 2007 at 09:07:53 AM EST
    military bases staffed with soldiers left behind till 2020 and beyond.  

    Parent
    Yeah. . . n/t (none / 0) (#32)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:46:56 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:42:18 PM EST
    That is the point.
    I do believe that a Democratic President would get us out of Iraq.

    After they are elected. Which means war into 2009.

    Parent

    No question, that's the problem (none / 0) (#31)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:45:18 PM EST
    I just don't think that most elected Democrats actually want us to stay in Iraq, which is what I think your post suggested. (Strategy is another matter.)

    Parent
    Yes, but (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:10:20 PM EST
    And we have also gotten a lot of lip service from the thugs too.

    Parent
    Hope you're wrong... (none / 0) (#7)
    by JanL on Fri May 18, 2007 at 08:43:15 PM EST
    ...fear you're right. I am still baffled by Webb's statement about his vote the other day.  I hope they all take a hard look at the direction we're going and the handbasket we're going in - with a weakened president and Republican party, what is the problem with doing the right thing?  


    Parent
    The whole thing sucks. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:03:30 PM EST
    Do you (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:01:36 PM EST
    just come here to troll?

    I deleted the comment (5.00 / 3) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:08:09 PM EST
    as it violated the site rules.

    Parent
    I'm sorry (5.00 / 1) (#53)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:47:19 PM EST
    that the comment I addressed the point to is gone; it was a classic troll.

    Sickeningly immoral charade (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 04:55:33 AM EST
    Theater of Death:
    ...for our ruling elites, the suffering and death of innocent people, American, Iraqi or of any other nationality, are not of primary importance. In the perverse scheme of their priorities, such matters appear well down on the list. Their major and often sole concern is political power: its acquisition, its maintenance and its expansion. Tactics of only one kind are their concern: the means by which their own power is maintained and enhanced.

    It is deeply regrettable, and also inevitable - since the world of political blogs cannot be other than a reflection of the larger culture - that this same indifference to human pain and suffering infects the approach of the great majority of political bloggers. For all their ferocious opposition to the Bush administration and to Republicans generally, [some] liberal and progressive bloggers act as if they are largely indifferent to bringing about a quick end to the incomprehensibly deadly Iraq occupation. They certainly demonstrate no sustained, serious effort to pressure Congressional Democrats into defunding the war - or into acting to oppose an attack on Iran in every way possible.  The concerns of these bloggers and the Washington Democrats are perfectly coextensive: they will condemn the Iraq war and act to block an attack on Iran only to the degree such actions will not endanger their perceived political opportunities in 2008.


    The Bush Veto, the Democrats' Response, and Why Millions Must Break with the Politics of Empire:
    When Bush vetoed the bill, and the Democrats failed to override it, they immediately began talking about concessions: giving Bush the money he wanted and removing any timetables for troop withdrawals. Simply refusing to fund the war (including by filibustering) wasn't considered.
    ...
    This whole dynamic of riding the anti-war vote to power, then voting to fund an ongoing war while claiming to be ending it, reflect the conflicting necessities the Democrats face. As representatives of U.S. imperialism, they are committed to maintaining U.S. global dominance.
    STOP Funding The Iraq War:
    Shank: So why has Congress been so timid in exercising its authority to fund or not fund the war?

    Kucinich: I think that's a question that requires a deeper understanding of the primary process that produced candidates that may not have been so strongly in favor of ending the war. But the surge that happened in the November elections was a profoundly anti-war surge that carried in all the Democrats, whatever their positions were. And now we find ourselves in this paradox: the American people demanding an end to the war and the Democratic Congress saying "hey, not so fast, here's a Democratic version of the war that we want you to look at as opposed to a Republican version of the war."

    I think that as the American people realize what's happened here they're going to be outraged and they're going to lose faith in the Democratic Party.



    GOP Plan for "Victory" In a Nutshell (5.00 / 5) (#132)
    by john horse on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:31:55 AM EST
    Heres the Bush/GOP plan for "victory" in Iraq.  
    1. Keep blocking any attempt to end the war
    2. Allow GOP Senators and Reps who are in danger of losing their seats over the war to come out against the war (but not enough to change #1)
    3. Keep claiming that progress is being made.
    4. Hand the problem to the new President.
    5. If the new President is a Democrat, blame him/her for losing the war after he/she withdraws the troops.


    Exactly. (none / 0) (#135)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:39:43 AM EST
    Fuzzy Logic (1.00 / 1) (#9)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 08:54:03 PM EST
    on Armando's part.

    Bush has a 30%+/- approval rating. Pretty safe to say that all of them are repubs.

    But on Iraq 34% of repubs disapprove of his handling of Iraq according to a CBS-NYT poll April 20-24.

    So as far as the public is concerned 34% of repubs have already broke from him.

    Now as we know congress as a whole is behind the curve compared to the public. That's true for either party. So already there is soft pressure on the repubs from 34% of their party. That number will grow as Iraq gets worse.

    So given that we need approximately 35% of the repubs in the Senate to override a veto it is just a matter of time before public pressure will probably move enough Senators over to our side.

    Same math holds true for the House. And already in both chambers we have see real and significant signs of movement.

    So when Armando says:

    The GOP base will hold the line on all Republicans. They will never ever break with Bush.

    Wrong wrong wrong!

    A third of them already have broke from Bush.

    Note: Meteor Blades is right about 'Armando's plan. it isn't going to happen. And as Armando obviously read the entire thread that contained Meteor's post I think he knows in part how he came to his conclusion.

    Pffft (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:06:57 PM EST
    Today, on a day you have been totally discredited by the results of your favored approach, you still come crowing.

    You are funny as all getout.

    You I will certainly gloat over because as far as I can tell, there actually is not even a plan behind your lunatic ravings.

    Parent

    Pffft Squared (1.00 / 3) (#21)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:31:21 PM EST
    How have I been discredited? You can't explain that. You are just throwing out one of you baseless charges. Well it won't stick. Splain yourself Lucy!

    What is it you don't understand - the math? This isn't physics Bubu - it's simple math.

    As it stands the 34% who disagree with Bush on Iraq are already moving some repubs. The 11 who visited Bush even said so in so many words. The Senators like John Warner who is working with other repubs on Reid proposed Benchmarks hear them.

    What is it you don't understand?

    Or probably more to the point...

    What part of it don't you want to hear?

    [insert Armando with fingers in ears]...lalalalalalalala

    Parent

    You've been asked for weeks (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:40:59 PM EST
    to give your list of 17 Senate Republicans who will break with Bush. We're still waiting.

    Parent
    Along with the number of (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Edger on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:48:21 PM EST
    repubs he's flipped and the tactics he's used to do it, to show how it can be done.

    Parent
    If I Had Claimed (1.00 / 1) (#34)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:56:00 PM EST
    I had a list then I would present it. I never claimed I did. Although two have already voted with us and more are working on benchmarks as we speak.

    Now can anyone here give a date certain that the Dems will definitively announce the date that Dems will quit funding?

    Or for that matter if they will ever quit funding without an actual bill?

    I guess we are even.

    Except that I have VoteVets on my side and Obama on my side. And many retired Generals on my side. And Reid and Pelosi on my side who everyone on this site happens to loathe.

    Parent

    IOW (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Edger on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:59:13 PM EST
    like all delusions yours have no basis in reality.

    Parent
    2 voted for nonbinding timelines (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:59:20 PM EST
    Hagel said EXPRESSLY he would not vote for a binding timeline.

    You simply do not know what you are talking about.

    But forget the 17. Find the 90 in the House. You got 2 there also.

    88 to go.

    Parent

    Yeah Well (1.00 / 1) (#40)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:30:26 PM EST
    Hagel also didn't vote with us on initial Iraq test votes at first either. Neither did smith from what I recall. People change as the situation changes. Certainly you have followed congress long enough to know that.

    People change as the public changes. Certainly you have been around long enough to know that.

    But forget the 17. Find the 90 in the House. You got 2 there also.

    No don't forget the 17 or 15 or even getting closer to less now - they are important.

    88? It's all relative. It isn't really about hard numbers, it's about percentages. It will take the same percentage of the public to move the needed Senators as it will take to move the needed number of congress people.

    In fact when momentum starts it will probably take a smaller percentage to move the House reps than it will to move the Senators. As you know the House sentiment always moves faster than the Senate because of a number of factors. One - their constituency is much smaller and they ar not protected by statewide elections. Two - they are up for reelection more often. And three - their reelections are local and they can be targeted much easier for far less money.

    If Hagel and Smith stick with us. and then you add Snowe who has her own bill to end the war in 4 months - you already have three of 17 for 17% of what is needed. Add to that the Warner group who is working on benchmarks and can be brought along as things worsen.

    On the House side you have two of 88. Plus it's reasonable for discussion sake to include the 11 with cojones for a total of 13 of 88 for 15% of what is needed.

    Both the House and Senate are running pretty even on the percentage of what is needed already in the bag.

    It's simple math and percentages added to the unfortunate downward spiral of Iraq and public sentiment with it.

    I'd say we have the Perfect Storm brewing except there is nothing perfect about Iraq - but you get my drift.

    Parent

    Handy Dodge there, Chester. (5.00 / 2) (#41)
    by Edger on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:39:23 PM EST
    It isn't really about hard numbers, it's about percentages.

    What percentage of rethugs have you personally flipped and convinced to flip what percentage of their reps with your persuasive talents, and what tactics have used to do it?

    Share your expertise here so we can all together move the 'ball down the field' towards that looming veto proof majority.

    Or don't you do 'hard' percentages, either? They're sort of like fractions, you know. Not really that hard.

    Parent

    Here's the list (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:43:28 PM EST
    Find the 88 -

    Aderholt
    Akin
    Alexander
    Bachmann
    Bachus
    Baker
    Barrett (SC)
    Barrow
    Bartlett (MD)
    Barton (TX)
    Biggert
    Bilbray
    Bilirakis
    Bishop (UT)
    Blackburn
    Blunt
    Boehner
    Bonner
    Bono
    Boozman
    Boren
    Boustany
    Brady (TX)
    Brown (SC)
    Brown-Waite, Ginny
    Buchanan
    Burgess
    Burton (IN)
    Buyer
    Calvert
    Camp (MI)
    Campbell (CA)
    Cannon
    Cantor
    Capito
    Carter
    Castle
    Chabot
    Coble
    Cole (OK)
    Conaway
    Crenshaw
    Culberson
    Davis (KY)
    Davis, David
    Davis, Lincoln
    Davis, Tom
    Deal (GA)
    Dent
    Diaz-Balart, L.
    Diaz-Balart, M.
    Doolittle
    Drake
    Dreier
    Duncan
    Ehlers
    English (PA)
    Everett
    Fallin
    Feeney
    Ferguson
    Flake
    Forbes
    Fortenberry
    Fossella
    Foxx
    Franks (AZ)
    Frelinghuysen
    Gallegly
    Garrett (NJ)
     Gerlach
    Gillmor
    Gingrey
    Gohmert
    Goode
    Goodlatte
    Granger
    Graves
    Hall (TX)
    Hastert
    Hastings (WA)
    Hayes
    Heller
    Hensarling
    Herger
    Hobson
    Hoekstra
    Hulshof
    Hunter
    Inglis (SC)
    Issa
    Jindal
    Johnson (IL)
    Johnson, Sam
    Jordan
    Keller
    King (IA)
    King (NY)
    Kingston
    Kirk
    Kline (MN)
    Knollenberg
    Kucinich
    Kuhl (NY)
    LaHood
    Lamborn
    Latham
    LaTourette
    Lee
    Lewis (CA)
    Lewis (GA)
    Lewis (KY)
    Linder
    LoBiondo
    Lucas
    Lungren, Daniel E.
    Mack
    Manzullo
    Marchant
    Marshall
    Matheson
    McCarthy (CA)
    McCaul (TX)
    McCotter
    McCrery
    McHenry
    McHugh
    McKeon
    McMorris Rodgers
    McNulty
    Mica
    Michaud
    Miller (FL)
    Miller (MI)
    Miller, Gary
    Moran (KS)
    Murphy, Tim
    Musgrave
    Myrick
    Neugebauer
     Nunes
    Paul
    Pearce
    Pence
    Peterson (PA)
    Petri
    Pickering
    Pitts
    Platts
    Poe
    Porter
    Price (GA)
    Pryce (OH)
    Putnam
    Radanovich
    Ramstad
    Regula
    Rehberg
    Reichert
    Renzi
    Reynolds
    Rogers (AL)
    Rogers (KY)
    Rogers (MI)
    Rohrabacher
    Ros-Lehtinen
    Roskam
    Royce
    Ryan (WI)
    Sali
    Saxton
    Schmidt
    Sensenbrenner
    Sessions
    Shadegg
    Shays
    Shimkus
    Shuster
    Simpson
    Smith (NE)
    Smith (NJ)
    Smith (TX)
    Souder
    Stearns
    Sullivan
    Tancredo
    Taylor
    Terry
    Thornberry
    Tiahrt
    Tiberi
    Turner
    Upton
    Walberg
    Walden (OR)
    Walsh (NY)
    Wamp
    Waters
    Weldon (FL)
    Weller
    Whitfield
    Wicker
    Wilson (NM)
    Wilson (SC)
    Wolf
    Woolsey
    Young (AK)
    Young (FL)

    Parent

    A Perfect Storm of Ignorance (5.00 / 4) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:39:48 PM EST
    A simple final question - if the momentum is rolling downhill in favor of the GOP moving towards Dems, why in God's name would it not be possible to hit the lower required number for the not funding by a date certain approach.

    That is your fundamental illogic.

    218 is less than 290. 218 can agree not to pass a bill. A vetop proof bill requires 290. I have said this a million times but a lunatic like yourself simply can not see the obvious.

    NOT passing a bill is easier than getting a veto-proof majority. I simply do not see how you can not understand that. This is the arithmetic.

    Frankly, no one can seriously believe your theory. It is to MB's great discredit that he foolishly says a veto-proof majority is easier. But frankly, as muchas I love MB, he really is not particualrly good at political analysis. He is a grassroots activist at heart, not a political analyst type.

    But still a 4th grader should know this.

    Finally, anyone who says 88 in the House is the same as 17 i9n the Senate simply demonstrates he knows nothing of the partisan extremist nature of the House bodies, particularly the GOP House.

    With that observation by you you have made it clear you are ignorant about the subject.

    But do the exercise. Name the 88 GOP reps who will revolt. wehen you get to the 30th name, you will realize how absurd the statement is.

    Parent

    Mama Mia! (1.00 / 1) (#44)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:57:32 PM EST
    A simple final question - if the momentum is rolling downhill in favor of the GOP moving towards Dems, why in God's name would it not be possible to hit the lower required number for the not funding by a date certain approach
    .
    What are you talking about? According to you it wouldn't take a bill to 'announce' a date certain. All it would take according to you is to send Bush some money in a no strings attached clean bill that he would accept and tell him that is all you are getting and come March 2008 there is no more money - better get the troops out.

    Man!! You can't even follow your own logic. Wakeup! You don't need Repubs for your approach. That's the whole premise of doing it your way.

    See why I don't take your comments seriously?

    Frankly, no one can seriously believe your theory. It is to MB's great discredit that he foolishly says a veto-proof majority is easier. But frankly, as muchas I love MB, he really is not particualrly good at political analysis. He is a grassroots activist at heart, not a political analyst type.

    But still a 4th grader should know this.

    I see you have read: How to Win Friends & Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

    Parent

    Then you've just (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:13:50 PM EST
    conceded the entire argument to BTD. Thank you.

    Parent
    I conceded nothing (1.00 / 1) (#47)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:32:25 PM EST
    I let him know I understood his approach better that he did. If you read his post he is saying he needs repubs to do what he want to do. He doesn't. And you listen to him?!!! How can you listen to someone who does not even know how his position would work from one day to the next?

    Understanding someones position is not conceding. It is just being intelligent and showing that you understand all options people are taking about as opposed to you and Armando and others who refuse to think about other people positions all the way through. Start to wise up a little. A closed mind like yours is not one to be listened to. Neither is Armando's which is evidenced by his post.

    Parent

    Wow (5.00 / 1) (#49)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:35:34 PM EST
    If you read his post he is saying he needs repubs to do what he want to do.
    His plan explicitly requires not a single Republican. Your reading skills are lacking.

    Parent
    He just admitted to me (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:52:57 PM EST
    over at dkos in this ridiculous comment that he doesn't really listen to anything BTD has to say anyway. I don't see why BTD should bother to engage him again then.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:55:23 PM EST
    He responds with a string of accusatory irrelevancies. Oh, and then there's his "plan."

    Parent
    I believe that it is a fine and wonderful (5.00 / 1) (#137)
    by Militarytracy on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:54:31 AM EST
    thing to engage talex and others who hate Armando's stance on this issue.   I know that they are annoying at times but as we engage in debate with them the way becomes clearer and the kinks get ironed out in our own abilities to debate for the only thing we know will end this life sucking blood letting debacle called the Iraq War.  Most people want real answers and real solutions where Iraq in concerned, and we all find our way to this path now even though some hate it.  We must be able to address those who hate it because the path is not an easy one even without those hate it.  I guess this is where we are the soldiers in all of this, bring your gear and all of your battle knowledge with you and we will be ambushed at times ;).

    Parent
    But read my comment (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:43:54 PM EST
    above. Talex admits he's not listening.

    Parent
    I think I would point out (5.00 / 1) (#155)
    by Militarytracy on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:48:11 PM EST
    that he isn't listening and call that a win for you in the debate....the people who fight this path are those who refuse to listen to facts ;)  You win in my school!

    Parent
    Now you are acting like a child (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by talex on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:00:51 AM EST
    Armando was wrong in the premise of his post in saying he needed less repub votes than a veto proof majority would need.

    As you know his approach requires none.

    Now that you have seen that he screwed up you want to change the subject and talk about my post at dkos which by the way also showed you to be a little misguided in your own thought about things.

    Trying to change the subject to me and away from Armando's mistake is childish.

    He wrote what he wrote. He screwed up plain and simple. He's a man he doesn't need you doing childish things to cover for him.

    Goodnight - I'm out.

    Parent

    Your inability (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:03:35 AM EST
    to understand BTD's prose does not constitue an error on his part. Even if you were right (and you aren't), he has presented his plan so many times that the record is quite clear: what he wants the Democrats to do does not require any Republicans.

    Parent
    Of course he needs (5.00 / 2) (#65)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:06:13 AM EST
    less repub votes than you. He needs ZERO. And he's well aware of that. Anyone paying even the slightest amount of attention realizes that Armando knows full well that the point of his entire plan is that it requires ZERO help from republicans.

    But you made it clear to me at dkos that the very reason you don't like the plan is because it doesn't require any help from the GOP. You are all about bipartisanship, and no plan that lacks GOP support is acceptable to you. That's fine if that's how you see it, but don't come around telling us you are all about ending the war, because you are not.

    And what are you calling childish? You publicly stated that you really don't pay any attention to what Armando says, and I was merely pointing that out. I think it only fair to Armando that he know this so that he can stop wasting his time on you. I plan to stop wasting my time on you from now on as well.

    Parent

    No you can't read (1.00 / 2) (#60)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:54:53 PM EST
    he said:
    why in God's name would it not be possible to hit the lower required number for the not funding by a date certain approach.

    You see? He is asking if I need more votes for a veto proof majority then why not go for a lower amount of votes for a "the not funding by a date certain approach".

    He is saying his approach would require fewer repub votes than mine.

    When in fact approach his would require no repub votes as I already posted above.!!!

    He doesn't even know that? Yesterday he did. Why not tonight?

    You better go back and read his entire post again my friend.

    It's Friday night. Maybe he just has one to many beers.

    Parent

    You I$%*# (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:56:50 PM EST
    Of course he knows that. The "lower number" doesn't include any Republicans!

    Parent
    You spent how long finding what you (5.00 / 1) (#139)
    by Militarytracy on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:01:13 AM EST
    believe to be a flaw in some of the thousands of words that Armando types ;)?  I think this thing is getting personal for you and not so much about the issue than it is about not liking Armando my friend.  And as you waste your personal time and efforts (which is your prerogative) the bloodbathe to nowhere in Iraq goes on and on.

    Parent
    I think your forgot your own proposal. n/t (none / 0) (#46)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:25:45 PM EST
    Whys that? (none / 0) (#48)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:33:51 PM EST
    Do you understand (none / 0) (#50)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:36:36 PM EST
    what BTD means by "lower required number"?

    Parent
    Duh (none / 0) (#54)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:47:58 PM EST
    he wasn't talking about my proposal. He was talking about his. He mentioned mine needing more votes for a veto proof majority but he was asking about his not needing as many votes.

    And in actuality his needs no repub votes at all. He doesn't even know what his own proposal would take.

    Parent

    This is (none / 0) (#55)
    by andgarden on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:50:08 PM EST
    the most incompetent  straw man I've ever seen in my life.

    BTD knows full well that his plan doesn't require any Republicans. Yours requires many, and you've refused to name the ones you think could possibly switch.

    Parent

    but BTD's plan (none / 0) (#68)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:09:59 AM EST
    requires Democrats he'll never get.

    Parent
    Obviously (5.00 / 2) (#71)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:18:06 AM EST
    BTD's plan cannot work if the Dem leadership won't adopt it. But talex's plan won't work no matter how many Democrats adopt it, because it requires support from a whole mess of Republicans.

    But this is what it boils down to for talex: he supports no plan unless it can be called 'bipartisan'. Better the war go on than that the Dems dare do anything that doesn't require any GOP help.

    By his logic, if the Dems had a veto proof majority all on their own, he STILL wouldn't support any plan to end the war unless an acceptable number of GOPpers went along with it, as bipartisan cover.

    Parent

    i don't know about talex's plan (none / 0) (#72)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:22:17 AM EST
    or lack thereof.

    but any hope BTD is giving anyone that dems like webb and tester will support defunding is, perhaps, inspirational, but at the very least just as unrealistic as the expectation that repugs will go against bush.

    at the very best, we are talking about two different plans that are equally unlikely.


    Parent

    That's open to debate (none / 0) (#69)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:11:41 AM EST
    Reid-Feingold and McGovern got a majority of the caucus in both houses. The point is that it will be much easier to sway Democrats than Republicans.

    Parent
    i disagree (none / 0) (#70)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:17:38 AM EST
    not about defunding.

    reid himself couldn't herd the cats around reid/feingold, grassroots activism isn't going to do any better than reid.

    you know what.  try.  i couldn't hurt.

    that's what those staffers get paid for.  if they get paid.

    but i disagree.  i have an opinion.  and people can troll rate this opinion all they want.  but i believe the chances of repugs ditching bush is more likely than enough dems backing defunding.

    at the very least, BTD has not provided a substantial rationale for why dems who don't support defunding will suddenly start.  those dems are not at risk for re-election in the states where they come from.

    by comparison, repugs are at risk for continuing to support bush.

    Parent

    Wait a sec (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:29:46 AM EST
    As I understand it, another point of the plan is that it doesn't require all the Democrats to go along with it either, since it doesn't require a vote. All that is required is for the leadership of the party to not bring forward any bills that don't fit in with the plan.

    No 'blank check' bills would be allowed, so even those Dems who aren't crazy about the plan and want only bipartisanship to end the war would still have to go along with it OR refuse to vote any funding to Bush at all. They won't do the latter, so they are stuck with the former.

    But I agree that time is running out and it's looking increasingly obvious that the party won't take any meaningful steps to end the war unless they can claim it's bipartisan. Bush is counting on the Dems to behave this way, so eventually he will get his blank check and the war will go on into 2009 and beyond.

    Parent

    No (none / 0) (#79)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:32:48 AM EST
    Dems won't do it unless they can at least claim they are unified behind that course of action.

    Partisan means unity as much as it means against the other side.

    Dems will never unite behind defunding.


    Parent

    Then, objectively speaking (5.00 / 1) (#81)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:34:23 AM EST
    they don't want to end the debacle.

    Parent
    That's what it boils down to (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:38:40 AM EST
    "We'll end the war if you Republicans think it's ok. But if not, we'll just keep it going."

    Parent
    that's typical of the blogosphere (none / 0) (#84)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:36:30 AM EST
    adopt my plan or i'll question your intent.

    tell me..   do you think webb wants the debacle to continue?

    Parent

    What I think he thinks (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:38:35 AM EST
    doesn't matter. If he doesn't want to enforce a date certain for withdrawal, what is his plan? If it's some version of getting Republicans to join in opposing the President, then he is not serious.

    Parent
    His plan (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:43:01 AM EST
    is right here. Webb wants to give it another 6 months and 'let's hope' Bush finally gets it right this time. Basically it's the same plan as the GOP 11 who claimed that if there's no progress in September then ... well there's no telling what might happen, darn it.

    Parent
    but what you think (none / 0) (#94)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:46:43 AM EST
    other dems think does matter.

    apparently.

    you are deciding what other people think based on their disagreement with you about defunding.

    support defunding or you want the war to continue.

    might was well just say it.   you are with me.  or you are with ......   the neocons!

    Parent

    There is no middle ground on Iraq (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:48:35 AM EST
    Armando has presented the only plan that can get us out of Iraq before 2009. If you disagree, feel free to suggest another one. Giving the President "until September" is not a plan to get out of Iraq.

    Parent
    i have offered a different plan (none / 0) (#97)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:51:45 AM EST
    it is not acknowledged as a viable plan because it requires something to happen that is highly unlikely to happen.

    if that's what it takes to make a plan viable, then explain how dem leadership splitting the party over defunding is likely to happen.

    and we'll call that plan viable too!

    Parent

    My definition of viable (5.00 / 1) (#98)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:55:50 AM EST
    can be accomplished without the President or more than a handful of Congressional Republicans. Only Armando has offered such a plan.

    Parent
    my definition of viable (none / 0) (#100)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:01:32 AM EST
    can be accomplished only with the co-operation of the dem leadership and a unified dem party.

    armando has not offered such a plan.

    armando has offered a plan that divides dems and unifies repugs.

    my plan unifies dems and divides repugs.

    if the goal is to end the war, both plans are about as likely to do so.   or rather, neither will accomplish that goal.

    if the goal is to divide dems, armando's plan is the right course of action.

    if the goal is to divide repugs, the other plan is the right course of action.

    Parent

    What is this (none / 0) (#99)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:58:13 AM EST
    split over defunding? What exactly are they split over? I wish you could define it for me. Those who are against defunding, what is it they are against exactly?

    Because it seems to me that those who are against it are against for only two reasons: 1. They want the war to continue, to give it yet another chance to succeed, or 2. They are simply afraid to end it without bipartisan cover, for fear that it will cost them votes.

    Is there a third or a fourth reason?

    Parent

    Yes (none / 0) (#102)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:11:24 AM EST
    There some who think defunding actually hurts the military.

    I can back that up with people who will also be happy to point out that the single most hurtful thing to the military has been repugs.


    Parent

    I gotta take off (none / 0) (#105)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:18:45 AM EST
    for a couple of hours.

    this might take a little time to digest.

    http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2007/5/17/10249/9156/68#68

    Parent

    You dishonest SOB (none / 0) (#113)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:50:06 AM EST
    I just saw the entire Easton clip and it's obvious that he's only responding to the idea of immediate defunding of the war, which is not what the plan we are talking about involves.

    Defunding after a certain future date will get Bush plenty of time to get the troops home. When they are home, congress will give them the funds they need to re-equip and get medical care, which is what Easton is worried about.

    You deliberately and wilfully chose to misunderstand the distinction between immediate defunding, and defunding by a future date certain, in spite of the fact it has been discussed literally ad nauseum on this blog. Therefore, I will not be responding to your comments in the future, as I have no time for such blatant intellectual dishonesty as yours.

    Parent

    sorry man, that must have been hard (none / 0) (#114)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:04:04 AM EST
    to watch.

    two good military men aren't for defunding.

    webb and eaton.

    i guess they must be with the president on the issue.

    eaton was clearly responding to the question of defunding, period.   now or later.  he didn't say later would be a good idea.

    webb voted against reid/feingold.

    it's time to re-evaluate your binaries or force the same conclusions that you make about others onto webb and eaton.

    i don't see how i can be dishonest when all i'm doing is posting links.


    Parent

    It wasn't hard to watch at all (none / 0) (#116)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:12:07 AM EST
    frankly. The guy totally eviscerated Bush, Rumsfeld, and the Republican Party.

    But you are thoroughly dishonest and you know it. Maher never mentioned the specifics of defunding. He just said 'some people say the war should be defunded, what do you think?' I know from plenty of experience that when you pose it that way people think you mean just cut off the funding NOW. Well, obviously that is a stupid idea. I don't need Gen. Easton to tell me that. And that's not the idea proposed here. AND YOU KNOW IT.

    Furthermore, you weren't just posting links. You used the link to make an argument that the link doesn't support. Hence, you were dishonest. And you continue to be.

    Parent

    his answer about defunding (none / 0) (#117)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:21:49 AM EST
    was direct and unequivocal.

    if it really makes people feel better to think he was endorsing a "date certain" defunding scenario and was only responding to an immediate scenario, gosh, one could have only asked maher to be more specific.  it's obviously regrettable that he wasn't.  of course reid/feingold wasn't in play at the time the question was asked.

    even so, the answer sounded pretty direct to me.  

    at least we know webb doesn't support defunding, he voted against reid/feingold which means he doesn't even support defunding in that context.  so it's not totally dishonest to conclude a likeminded military man like eaton would have the same opinion.

    this is a serious problem with the entire argument being posed by the defunding advocates.

    if someone even asks "will it impact the military?" the defensiveness sets in and the only argument offered in rebuttal is "NO IT DOESN'T!" "SHUT UP!" "YOU LIAR!" and "STOP POSTING RIGHT WING TALKING POINTS!"

    these arguments are aggressive, but they aren't very convincing to anyone who isn't already on board the defunding bandwagon.


    Parent

    More (none / 0) (#118)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:33:37 AM EST
    dishonesty from you. Can you ever refrain from lying about what someone else has said?

    I never said Easton was endorsing a date certain scenario, so stop with the crapola that it makes people feel better to think he did. He didn't.

    I merely said that he was only responding to an immediate defunding scenario because that is how everyone I have ever seen interprets that question on its face. The date certain scenario never even came up. STOP lying.

    Parent

    no (none / 0) (#119)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:40:16 AM EST
    he wasn't endorsing a date certain scenario.    he could have if he felt one was advisable.

    the word "immediate" never appears there either.

    that is what you bring to his answer.  

    the question was general.  what about defunding?  he gave his answer.

    i've confronted other defunding advocates with eaton's remarks.  you're the only one who has tried to weasel out of it the way you're doing.

    most just say, "he's a good man, he has a right to his opinion.  i just disagree."

    and then we move on from there.

    Parent

    i'll have to try a different approach (none / 0) (#120)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:46:08 AM EST
    lets do it this way.

    lets assume you are right about the context of the question being asked in that clip.   and lets assume i knew that.  and my interprestation was a willful lie.  ok.  lets give you all that.  i'm a lying bastard.

    but answer this, if you can:

    you still have to concede that IMMEDIATELY defunding will adversely affect the military AS EATON SAYS IT WILL.

    then i really have to ask.  how will defunding 9 months from now NOT adversely affect the military?

    Parent

    Explain to me (none / 0) (#82)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:35:13 AM EST
    why, and why it is essential that they do?

    Is it because they don't really want to end the war? Will they only unite behind something that is bipartisan?

    Parent

    they've already united behind (none / 0) (#89)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:39:35 AM EST
    something that wasn't very bipartisan.

    Parent
    That hardly proves (5.00 / 1) (#92)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:44:27 AM EST
    that they have to all be united under this. Are they even united behind the idea of ending the war? Apparently not.

    Parent
    Congressmen have two elections (none / 0) (#73)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:24:02 AM EST
    The Primary and the General. Any Republican who breaks with Bush over the war will be in deep doodoo for the former.

    Parent
    and any congressman (none / 0) (#74)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:25:36 AM EST
    who doesn't break with bush is gonna hear about it in the general.


    Parent
    Doesn't matter (none / 0) (#75)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:26:29 AM EST
    Just ask the Republicans who've had close calls recently. The Club for Growth et al. have no mercy.

    Parent
    you don't want to ask the repugs (none / 0) (#76)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:27:19 AM EST
    who just lost?

    we can't ask them too?

    Parent

    We've already gotten most of (none / 0) (#78)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:30:03 AM EST
    the easy Republicans. Seriously, you're free to think that we can get 88 Republican votes in the house, but you'll be wrong.

    Parent
    All i'm saying (none / 0) (#80)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:33:58 AM EST
    is it's just as likely as dems uniting behind defunding.


    Parent
    NO (none / 0) (#83)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:35:59 AM EST
    As BTD has explained repeatedly, a veto override requires many more members to agree. "Just as likely" is therefore almost certainly wrong.

    Parent
    Highly unlikely (none / 0) (#85)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:38:03 AM EST
    as unlikely as dems uniting behind defunding.


    Parent
    They needn't "unite" (none / 0) (#88)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:39:29 AM EST
    behind the Reid-Feingold framework. We just need 218 in the House.

    Parent
    That would split the party (none / 0) (#90)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:42:47 AM EST
    it won't happen.  the fallout there would be worse for dems than it would be for repugs, and there's no guarantee the war would even end at that point.

    that turns '08 into "do you support defunding?"

    i'd rather '08 be about about "do you support bush?"


    Parent

    The choice is binary (5.00 / 1) (#93)
    by andgarden on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:46:15 AM EST
    whether you like it or not. Democrats can support the Reid-Feingold framework, or they can support the President.

    Parent
    i think that sums up your position (none / 0) (#95)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:48:06 AM EST
    perfectly.


    Parent
    Percentage Are Good Guidelines (5.00 / 1) (#106)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:21:30 AM EST
    Polls show 75% of Republicans voters believe that we can win the war, 77% oppose setting a timeline for withdrawal and 61% believe that the terrorists will follow us home?  [http://americanresearchgroup.com/]

    A Republican in a red state is not going to tick off 75 - 77% of his support and change his vote.

    Parent

    that relies (none / 0) (#107)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:27:27 AM EST
    on repuglicans being the majority in all states.

    they are not.

    they may choose not to piss off their base.

    they will get 40% of the most passionate voters ever in their state.


    Parent

    Do me a favor (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:43:27 PM EST
    They appreciate you back at daily kos right? Go enjoy the adulation there.

    Frankly, there is no place for delusion here.

    Parent

    I read him at dkos (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Warren Terrer on Fri May 18, 2007 at 10:25:14 PM EST
    quite frequently, and I see no indication that he's particularly appreciated over there.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#51)
    by talex on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:37:12 PM EST
    since I started talking about a veto proof majority a lot of people have come around to that position. If I had a small part in them making up their own mids then fine.

    I know this - I was talking about it before Obama was and before VoteVets started their ads advocating for it.

    Parent

    thank you for saying that (none / 0) (#58)
    by conchita on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:53:50 PM EST
    it's not my place so have held back.  catching up here very late in the day and, frankly, found myself thinking why is talex wasting people's time again with the s.o.s.  deckchairs on the titanic again.

    looks to me like bushco is gearing up for a full on battle, and sadly, at this point, it also looks like the dems don't have much fight in 'em.  what the h are they waiting for?

    Parent

    if you're waiting for them (none / 0) (#67)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:09:02 AM EST
    to unite behind defunding, it's gonna be a long wait.

    that'll probably happen 10 minutes after the arrival of the aforementioned godot.

    Parent

    Logic Is Off (5.00 / 1) (#110)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:39:25 AM EST
    You can't use national or state percentages to come up with the additional Republican votes you need in the House to get to a veto-proof majority.

    You have to look at the support for Bush or Republicans at the district level and in red districts there is little chance of their Representatives changing their votes since their constituents believe the war can be won, they oppose any type of time line, believe that the terrorist will follow us home and on general principle would never vote for a Democrat because we believe in choice, don't hate gays and will take away their guns.

    Parent

    Fuzziest (none / 0) (#20)
    by Edger on Fri May 18, 2007 at 09:27:36 PM EST
    i just figured (none / 0) (#66)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:06:37 AM EST
    you should have something to troll rate here.

    Parent
    The Republican base (none / 0) (#56)
    by Mike Mid City on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:50:18 PM EST
    Basically the Republican base is 28% of the voting public.  28% of the voting public will not win elections.

    I fell safe in saying that independents are off the GOP and if Republicans don't offer up Bush for impeachment then it will be the end of the Republicans.

    You Have To Look At The Percentage Of (none / 0) (#111)
    by MO Blue on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:45:19 AM EST
    Republicans by district and not at the state or national level if you want to analysis the chance of getting enough Representatives in the House to have a veto-proof majority. No veto-proof majority in the House - no chance of changing course in Iraq.

    In heavily Republican districts there is no way that a Representative is going to change their vote on the war.

    Parent

    MB (none / 0) (#59)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri May 18, 2007 at 11:53:53 PM EST
    Isn't talking about repug base.  krugman is.  and krugman should stick to what he knows best.  economics.

    i'm siding with MB on this one.

    You take two possibilities.   Here are two possibilities.

    1.  Dems unifying behind Defunding.

    2.  Repugs joining dems and parting with the president on progressively more and more aggressive legislation on the issue.

    now be honest and rate which one is more likely.

    if you said no. 1, you're not being honest or you're being naive or dumb or both.  or all three.

    i wouldn't know.

    if we learned anything from reid/feingold it is that dems will never unite behind defunding.

    keep making your phone calls.  keep using your "sticks".  all you're doing is giving webb's and tester's staffers headaches.  they're not going to change their mind just cause a blogger called them a coward.

    nor should they.  i, for one, my opinion of them would deteriorate if they changed their minds just cause a blogger called them names on the internet.


    So they should (5.00 / 1) (#101)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:04:22 AM EST
    stick to their guns against us. But not against the president. Good to know whose side they are on.

    Parent
    that boils down to (none / 0) (#104)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:14:49 AM EST
    you are either with us or you are with... the president.

    i have higher hopes for the blogoshere.

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 3) (#108)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 01:29:15 AM EST
    On this issue you are either for ending the war, or for supporting the president. There is no in between space, since the president will never be in favor of ending this war.

    Parent
    Now you know (5.00 / 1) (#121)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 04:44:18 AM EST
    whose side stewieeee and talex are on. They need and want the occupation to continue. You'll notice that in all of their comments and shrill screechings there is never any consideration or even apparent awareness of how many people will die so they can have something to run against next year.

    Are they willing to die in the place of someone who will because the Democrats cave?

    Parent

    I think you're wrong (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 03:54:26 PM EST
    I tend to skip over stewieeee's offerings as a dull waste of space, but talex is much more interesting and clever. I doubt he particularly cares one way or the other about whether the occupation continues or not. His MO over at dk seems to be to take positions that pointlessly muddy what otherwise are very clear issues in order to divert discussion and sow discord. And he expends quite a bit of time and effort at this without any particular consistent political viewpoint apparent to be driving it. I won't say the T word, but hmmm...

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#157)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 03:58:58 PM EST
    If I am, it won't be the first time, and not likely to be the last. :-)

    I say this though: What other reason would there be to take positions that "take positions that pointlessly muddy"?

    Parent

    What reason? (none / 0) (#158)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 04:04:48 PM EST
    He's mentioned he "used to argue cases" and that he's in PR. Maybe it's a professional interest.

    Parent
    I didn't see that one. (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 04:27:31 PM EST
    Heh. If I argued as ineptly as he does I'd probably want some professional interest too. Somebody would have to pay me to keep getting bashed.

    Parent
    They don't even bother (none / 0) (#124)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 04:59:12 AM EST
    to deny that they could care less how many die. They just try to change the subject when confronted with it.

    Parent
    The actually believe (none / 0) (#125)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 05:06:13 AM EST
    that they won something on Friday.

    Parent
    They cling to the idea (5.00 / 2) (#129)
    by Warren Terrer on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:11:07 AM EST
    that there's some middle ground scenario in which Bush or the GOP is convinced in a bipartisan fashion either to end the war or change course and find the pony. This way they don't have to oppose him.

    But that means they are with him, because all the evidence of the past 4, even 6, years shows that Bush is not interested in being persuaded by anyone to change course. Bush will never join them in the middle.

    This has become a polarizing, binary issue because of Bush's intransigence, even in the face of calls by his own party to change course. The very idea that this is really a binary issue scares the heck out of people who are hung up on 'bipartisanship' with the least bipartisan GOP in history.

    Parent

    Centrists and 'extreme' centrists (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:19:20 AM EST
    who were rethug supporters have moved to calling themselves democrats and try to drag the democratic party to the right because they see it as the way to retain power.

    'Real world' trolls. See 'Blue Dogs'. Emphasis on 'dogs'.

    Parent

    Odom (5.00 / 1) (#131)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:23:15 AM EST
    ...a leader has to know when to change course. Hitler did not change his course: rather he kept sending more and more troops to Stalingrad and they suffered more and more casualties.

    When the president [or anyone else] says he is staying the course it reminds me of the man who has just jumped from the Empire State Building. Half-way down he says, `I am still on course.' Well, I would not want to be on course with a man who will lie splattered in the street. I would like to be someone who could change the course...

    Stay The Crooked Course

    Parent
    You are lying (none / 0) (#138)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:54:45 AM EST
    about other people just as assuredly as I'm sure you believe others have lied about you.


    Parent
    No, (none / 0) (#142)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:29:40 AM EST
    I'm stating an opinion based on everything I've read from both of you.

    Parent
    one could just as easily (none / 0) (#147)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:45:32 AM EST
    say the bullmoose and joe klein only make opinions based on everything they read from the blogosphere.

    i've tried.  i have often failed, but if i ever start saying things like "that person thinks this.." and "that person wants that...", i typically end up regretting it.

    i said more than once yesterday that i believe armando is trying to end the war.

    that doesn't mean i agree with him, and that i would stop expressing my disagreement.  it just means i am going to really try to prohibit myself from ever questioning his intent.

    i just know that when i have in the past done that with others, i have ended up regretting it.

    i may succumb to such rhetorical conceits in the future.  and i suspect i'll regret it then too.

    Parent

    As long as I see you (none / 0) (#148)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:57:38 AM EST
    or anyone else appearing more concerned with getting the democrats into power than in defunding and ending the occupation, it remains my opinion that that is what you want.

    Parent
    keep in mind (none / 0) (#150)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:07:43 PM EST
    one of BTD's reasons why defunding must be the course of action for democrats is that it will also pay off politically.

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 1) (#152)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:25:50 PM EST
    It will. Doing the right thing is probably the best way to achieve political gain, IMO.

    But that is not his reason for pushing it. You know that.

    Parent

    He's doing because it's the right thing to do. (none / 0) (#153)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:34:15 PM EST
    i'm not making an argument (none / 0) (#115)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 02:05:28 AM EST
    i'm posting links to other people who are far more reliable than you or myself on the topic.


    The rethugs (none / 0) (#123)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 04:56:34 AM EST
    having nothing to offer but more death, are going to try to win by making the Democrats lose. Standard rethug 'can't lift themselves so drag everybody else down to their level' strategy.

    The Democratic leadership thinks they can win by funding the occupation so that it will still be going on next year for them to run against.

    To do that they have to pay for it.

    With American lives. And Iraqi lives.

    As soon as they do the electorate will blame the occupation on the Democrats.

    The Republicans are a top down authoritarian organized machine. Not many will flip. They are laughing at the Democrats fighting amongst and dividing themselves.

    The DLC, when they lose next year, will blame their loss on people who advocated defunding and ending the occupation by saying that there was no unity behind continuing to fund death to run against.

    Wonderful scenario.

    The only way out of it is the Democratic Leadership defunding the occupation. By do that they will cut the feet off the Republicans.

    It's the only way that makes any sense.


    The leadership (1.00 / 2) (#133)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:34:42 AM EST
    As far as Pelosi and Reid are concerned are behind the Armando plan (Reid/Feingold).

    So it seems a little bizarre to blame Democratic Leadership on this.

    Maybe you're talking about a different Leadership.  If you're talking about the Democratic Leadership Council and that wing of power in the Democratic Party.  That's fine.

    But two of the Dems who have voted AGAINST Reid/Feingold have NEVER belonged to that wing (corporate/DLC) of the party.  Those two Dems (Webb and Tester) speicically chose to side with the blogosphere wing of the Democratic Party.

    You can downrate this if you want.  But I'm really not sure how one can not be confronted with some of the inconsistencies that, indeed, do exist in the narrative one is trying to create.

    The battle lines in the war for the soul of the Democratic Party are no longer clear.

    Defunding will divide this party.  Defunding is DIVIDING THE BLOGOSPHERE!


    Parent

    Fantasy. (none / 0) (#134)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:38:18 AM EST
    Defunding will divide this party.  

    The democratic party is not the GOP no matter how many times you click your heels.

    Defunding is DIVIDING THE BLOGOSPHERE!

    NOT defunding is murdering people.

    Parent

    It just seemed that such a determination (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 10:53:14 AM EST
    That this statement:

    "NOT defunding is murdering people."

    As long as it only applied to Vilsack, Bayh, Carper, Clinton, Obama, and Ford, all was good.  The blogosphere was taking on people firmly entrenched in DC politics.

    But Clinton and Obama voted for Reid/Feingold.

    Now that it is being applied to someone who has a son in the war, I just don't know what to say.

    Now that it is being applied to people who ARE NOT entrenched in DC politics, i just think there's a re-evaluation to be made.

    And I am NOT saying that re-evaluation needs to be made concerning your views regarding defunding.

    Parent

    Then it gives you something to consider, I hope. (5.00 / 1) (#140)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:22:26 AM EST
    Because it was meant to apply to anyone who places politics above lives, or places a higher priority on  getting the democrats into power than on ending the occupation and bringing them home, so they don't die.

    I've said it before, here, and I'll repeat it here today in case people have trouble understanding it.

    I do not care which party is elected next year. In the slightest.

    I. do. not. care. I belong to no party. I am here to do everything I can do to eliminate a mindset. Not to get anyone elected.

    I want the occupation ended as soon as possible so that the fewest Americans and Iraqis die. Preferably none. Period. I also see the occupation as a specific instance of the more general doctrine of preemptive war - really imperialist hegemony - that the neocons and rethugs want to pursue. I want the specific instance ended and the mindset behind the general doctrine made politically and socially unacceptable and people who hold that mindset treated as pariahs, so that no matter which party is elected it will not happen again...

    ...because NOT defunding is enabling is murdering people.

    There  is no way around that simple ugly fact.


    Parent

    I hope your son remains safe (none / 0) (#141)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:27:23 AM EST
    and comes home unharmed. I have a brother working a CentCom. I hope to god (and I'm not religious) that Bush does not attack Iran too. CentCom is less than a hundred miles across the water within range of the Shahab-3 missile emplacements on the coast of Iran.

    Parent
    I was talking about (none / 0) (#143)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:37:53 AM EST
    Webb.  He's the guy with the son in the war.


    Parent
    Sorry (none / 0) (#144)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:39:14 AM EST
    If that wasn't clear.

    My bad if it wasn't.  I thought everyone knew that Webb had a son in Iraq.


    Parent

    My misunderstanding. (none / 0) (#146)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:41:16 AM EST
    I thought you meant your son.

    Parent
    He is in logistics (none / 0) (#145)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 11:40:01 AM EST
    He used to email me depressed and freaked out telling me about the body bags he just unloaded from a plane.

    Not the ones with bodies in them.

    The bags full of unrecognizable hamburger...

    He doesn't email me about this so often anymore. I gather it is too regular an occurrence..

    Parent

    Watch (none / 0) (#151)
    by Edger on Sat May 19, 2007 at 12:11:29 PM EST