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Wednesday Open Thread

My day will be filled writing motions and visiting clients in jail. The particular jail I'm visiting, 45 minutes from Denver, is new and built like an underground city with a futuristic look that makes me think of StarTrek -- and the Wizard of Oz,because while the guards can see you, you can't see them located high above you and behind blacked out windows. It's like talking to a ghost. The jail is so far underground that my cingular wireless device on my laptop, which has a built in sim card like my cell phone, doesn't even show service. Thus, no internet access. Also, while there are electrical plugs in the walls of the visiting rooms, they aren't activated so battery power runs low quickly.

Clients wear different colored jumpsuits depending on their security level, which doesn't seem to have much to do with the crime they are charged with. One client charged with a very serious offense wears orange and is in lockdown 23 hours a day. Another client, a female charged with not so serious an offense, wears red and is considered the greatest security risk. When she meets with me, they lock the door behind us so she can't escape. She spends 24 hours a day alone in her cell except for some time in an exercise pen which she spends with a guard. It's all so dehumanizing, especially for these pre-trial detainees who haven't yet been convicted of anything. Because the cases are complex federal cases that will take a year to get to trial, they will endure these conditions the entire time.

What all this means is I'll be hard-pressed to follow the news today and it's a perfect time for an open thread.

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    rethug vote suppression (none / 0) (#1)
    by Sailor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 08:59:25 AM EST
    Efforts to Stop `Voter Fraud' May Have Curbed Legitimate Voting

    During four years as a Justice Department civil rights lawyer, Hans von Spakovsky went so far in a crusade against voter fraud as to warn of its dangers under a pseudonym in a law journal article.

    Writing as "Publius," von Spakovsky contended that every voter should be required to produce a photo-identification card and that there was "no evidence" that such restrictions burden minority voters disproportionately.

    Now, amid a scandal over politicization of the Justice Department, Congress is beginning to examine allegations that von Spakovsky was a key player in a Republican campaign to hang onto power in Washington by suppressing the votes of minority voters.
    [...]
    The bipartisan, four-member commission stirred a political tempest last year when it delayed the release of voter fraud and voter ID law studies, saying that more research was needed. A House panel revealed last month that the fraud study's central finding - that there was little evidence of widespread voter fraud - had been toned down to say that "a great deal of debate" surrounded the subject.

    Commissioners rejected as flawed the second study's finding that voter ID laws tend to suppress turnout, especially among Latinos, and ordered more research.



    Hope and human touch (none / 0) (#2)
    by Aaron on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:03:53 AM EST
    Jeralyn

    I hope you take the time to talk with these people about something other than their case.  Human beings are social animals by nature, and when we are completely deprived of social interaction it tends to wear on us in ways that are hard to define, but it leads to a deterioration which can be lasting or even permanent.

    I imagine you're aware of these things given your occupation, but I just want to remind you that a little small talk, a joke ,a smile, and simple physical contact like touching the shoulder or hand can make a difference in these situations.

    Dehumanizing is the right word for isolation, being deprived of the sky over your head, the sun, and the feel of the wind on your face is punishment in and of itself.  Such conditions tend to break people down, regardless of how strong they are.  Oftentimes they themselves don't even notice it, but I imagine you and others can see it.  I suppose there's not much you can do about that given the limitations of what you can bring into a prison, but I would suggest taking some pictures with you, basic things like a flower, a landscape, the sea, people in a crowd.  It helps to be reminded that the world still exists, and that there is still life and joy outside those walls.  It gives people hope, and human beings need hope if we are to go on.

    A year detained, not guilty yet?? (none / 0) (#3)
    by lilybart on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:48:10 AM EST
    I am a civilian here, but doesn't it violate their right to a speedy trial to be locked up like a criminal, like a serial killer or something, waiting?

    Has anyone challanged this kind of detention?

    Do I believe in an America that only exists on paper and in my imagination?

    A year detained. (none / 0) (#9)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:19:07 PM EST
    I am a civilian here, but doesn't it violate their right to a speedy trial to be locked up like a criminal, like a serial killer or something, waiting?

    I am a civilian here too (?), but I will answer your question as best as I can.

    First, the Sixth Amendment right to a speedy trial doesn't go so far as to mean unreasonable speed. Rather, an arrested or accused person must (1) wait until a regular term of the court having jurisdiction of the offense with which he or she is charged, (2) until an indictment is found and presented, and (3) until the prosecution has had a reasonable time to prepare for the trial.

    Because the circumstances of each defendant's case are particularized, there is no general rule regarding length of captivity before trial. Instead, the courts use a balancing test and examine each defendant on an ad hoc basis. Factors include length and reasons for delay, and prejudice to the defendant for a delay. Some rather grotesque courts have made their decisions based on whether the defendant asserts their Sixth Amendment right.

    I suspect that for most of Jeralyn's clients, the delay comes from the court's schedule being full, rather than any intentional delay on the part of prosecutors.

    Second, their pre-trial incarceration is necessary in order to secure their presence at trial. Without knowing the particulars of a case, I couldn't tell you why a person is being held rather than bonded, but such captivity usually requires a rather heinous crime or likelihood that  the person would flee.

    Do I believe in an America that only exists on paper and in my imagination?

    Yes. But don't feel bad about it. Most people do.

    Parent

    the Sixth Amendment (none / 0) (#10)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:27:35 PM EST
      hardly enters the picture in actual practice. the speedy Trial Act states a trail shall be held w/in 70 days of arraignment unlesss--- and the exceptions essentially swallow the rule. Often of course, we need the additional time to prepare our cases. and waive the ST rights as well.

     unfortunately under 18 USC § 3142, detetion without bond does not require a "heinous crime."

     in fact in any drug crime with a potential sentence of 10 or more years -- which means just about allbecause 0-20 is the statutory range for all you common drugs, theit is a rebuttable presumption that no combination of coditions will suffice to ensure appearance and safety of the community and the DEFENDANT has to rebut the presumption to be eligible for release awaiting detention.

       A hugge number of people awaiting trial for relatively minor drug offense are held without bond.

    Parent

    Thanks. (none / 0) (#11)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:35:51 PM EST
    Thanks, Decon. Does the Speedy Trial Act apply only to federal criminal prosecutions? (I probably should assume that all the states have adopted their own versions, though, shouldn't I?)

    Parent
    Yes state courts (none / 0) (#14)
    by Deconstructionist on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:52:50 PM EST
      are governed by state laws, although conceivablty a state rule or statute could run afoul of the 6th AT LEAST IN CERTAIN APPLICATIONS.

     I say the 6th amendment doesn't really enter the picture because in practice it's fair to say that delays within statutory constraints will be thus found not to violate the 6th-- tail wagging the dog logic perhaps but that's the practice.

      the exceptions swallow the rule because the catch all "ends of justice" and  other provisions tolling the clock (for routine things such as filing pre-trial motions) pretty much make it exceedingly rare to find violations

    Here's a good link

    Parent

    bush sponsors terrorism (none / 0) (#4)
    by Sailor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:54:37 AM EST
    The CIA has received secret presidential approval to mount a covert "black" operation to destabilize the Iranian government, current and former officials in the intelligence community tell the Blotter on ABCNews.com.
    [...]
    As earlier reported on the Blotter on ABCNews.com, the United States has supported and encouraged an Iranian militant group, Jundullah, that has conducted deadly raids inside Iran from bases on the rugged Iran-Pakistan-Afghanistan "tri-border region."


    Good (none / 0) (#5)
    by Slado on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:56:38 AM EST
    Isn't this better then war?

    Parent
    it's terrorism (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Sailor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:06:46 PM EST
    they don't 'hate us for our freedoms', they hate us because we're terrorists.

    Parent
    It is war Slado.... (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by kdog on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:15:46 PM EST
    just a shady way of going about it.

    Parent
    Of course it's "war"... (none / 0) (#17)
    by Slado on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:34:49 PM EST
    but it does not involve American troops or bombing of civilians by our air force and navy.

    Seems like a good way to free the people of Iran from a terrible government.

    Also why the hell is ABC reporting it?

    Parent

    it's a secret war (none / 0) (#20)
    by Sailor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:55:34 PM EST
    without congress' approval or oversight. That's illegal and unconstitutional.

    bush can't complain about alleged iranian involvement in iraq if he's doing the same thing to iran. he is supporting terrorism ... something we lock people up for.

    Parent

    Sailor (1.00 / 0) (#22)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:06:09 PM EST
    It's a non-lethal action directive, so it doesn't sound like war to me.

    But let me ask you.

    What would you do about Iran?

    Seems to me these are the options.

    1. Do nothing and accept the fact that Iran has nuclear weapons. With these I see the following options.

    a. Submit to their demands or suffer a nuke strike within the US.

    b. Strike first at Iran with enough power to completely disable their ability to respond.

    c. After they have struck Israel with a nuclear attack, respond as in b.

    d. Do nothing and rspond as in a.

    2. Strike first with as much accuracy as possible using manned air and missile power to wipe out their nuke capabilities.

    a. Do nothing beyond that.

    b. Insist on on scene monitoring or strike again.

    Parent

    WTF (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by squeaky on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:16:11 PM EST
    Now Iran has nukes??????  HAHHAHAHAAHAHA

    Worn out rerun with minor spelling change: n replaces the q.

    Parent

    Squeaky (1.00 / 0) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 23, 2007 at 06:12:41 PM EST
    Uh, the last time I checked you were among the many of the Left who was complaining that Bush wasn't prepared for 9/11.

    Now we have a chance to discuss what is happening and you snark away.

    Guess I'll put you, along with dadler and Sailor down as do nothing and then give in. aka Surrender.

    Parent

    la, la la, (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Thu May 24, 2007 at 09:48:55 AM EST
    Uh, the last time I checked you were among the many of the Left who was complaining that Bush wasn't prepared for 9/11.
    WTF does bush ignoring OBL determined to attack the US and bush committing acts of war against 2 countries that had nothing to do with 9/11 have to do with each other?[/rhetorical question]

    Parent
    A 2000 year old culture (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Dadler on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:22:23 PM EST
    And you think it can entirely be dealt with by force and a complete lack of imagination or respect.

    Your notions about Iran seem as dim as those about Iraq which got us into the murderous fiasco we're in now.  And which, to this day, continue to empower Iran beyond anything they could have imagined.  Why are you so zealously supporting a war policy in Iraq that only benefits Iran?  Bushco's rank and profound stupidity were the greatest gift the mullahs and president ahmaf*ckingidiot could've wished for.

    The way you want to deal with Iran is the surest way to take a largely secular society and turn it against us -- and strengthen the extremists we all loathe.  How many more Iranian citizens have to say this?  

    And your options are farcical.  Your characterizing of Iran is cartoonish and based on a notion that EVERY muslim is suicidal.  You act as if with one nuke Iran will control the world, when we have thousands and can't control sh*t.  Just absurd.

    But keep playing the bully card.  It's worked so well up to this point.

     

    Parent

    Dadler (1.00 / 1) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 23, 2007 at 06:09:26 PM EST
    I'm not sure what a 2000 year old culture has to do with anything... For at least the past 500 years or so no one gave a flip until:

    a. oil was discovered.

    b. the Soviets wanted a warm water port.

    I also find it amazing that I can present OPTIONS and you don't even bother to think about them.

    I guess I can put you down as do nothing and then give in. aka Surrender.

    Parent

    material support for terrorism (5.00 / 0) (#29)
    by Sailor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:49:11 PM EST
    the United States has supported and encouraged an Iranian militant group, Jundullah, that has conducted deadly raids inside Iran from bases on the rugged Iran-Pakistan-Afghanistan "tri-border region."

    Let's see, how many countries has iran invaded because they said that country supported terrorism?
    And how many countries has the US invaded for that reason?

    Parent

    Sailor (1.00 / 0) (#32)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 23, 2007 at 06:05:24 PM EST
    So you have no plan about how to deal with Iran.

    I guess that keeps you flexible so you can criticize whatever plan the US comes up with.

    Parent

    it's the same plan I have for iraq ... (5.00 / 0) (#39)
    by Sailor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:09:33 PM EST
    ... and what I've said all along.

    Stop killing people who had nothing to do with 9/11.
    Stop trying to overthrow governments, overtly or covertly.
    Get the UN and the neighboring countries involved and deal with the problems diplomatically.
    And as a very last resort, get a consensus involving the UN and the neighboring countries and solve it militarily.

    But Iran is years away from the bomb and there is no actual evidence they are pursuing one.

    Oh, BTW, here's bush's plan b.

    Parent

    Sailor (1.00 / 0) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:43:24 PM EST
    Interesting.

    I'll keep you in the "I give up group."

    BTW - Would that be the same UN that has passed all those resolutions re Hezbollah??

    And you think it can solve anything???

    Parent

    yes, (none / 0) (#56)
    by Sailor on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:48:14 PM EST
    and you stay firmly in the bloodthirsty warmongering group.

    Parent
    BTW (none / 0) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:42:24 AM EST
    According to IAEA they have 1300 centrifuges up and working.

    If you wait until they have the bombs you can either do as you are told o....

    Parent

    1300 centrifuges ... (none / 0) (#53)
    by Sailor on Thu May 24, 2007 at 09:49:44 AM EST
    ... enriching at less than 4%, bombs take 85%. We have time to talk ... instead of sponsoring terrorists acts against them. It's hard to get someone to stop loading a gun inside the house when you're standing on the porch with a  

    Besides, it was rumsfeld, cheney and wolfowitz that sold iran on the need for nuke energy. And the iran/contra convicted criminal abrams is behind the terrorists that bush is attacking iran with.

    Parent

    sailor (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 24, 2007 at 07:39:05 PM EST
    And, as you may know, you do it again and again until... presto! Look how all those Jews died!!

    Parent
    Did You Forget (none / 0) (#34)
    by squeaky on Wed May 23, 2007 at 06:09:38 PM EST
    About North Korea? and Canada, and China. Mozambique, Mexico, etc.

    Or is Iran just the flavor of the day.

    Parent

    Squeaky (1.00 / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 23, 2007 at 06:15:15 PM EST
    I'll worry about them when they start threatening to destroy Israel and Israel's supporters.

    Parent
    That (5.00 / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Wed May 23, 2007 at 06:20:45 PM EST
    Is false and has been debunked many times, and you know that.

    Iran is no threat to Israel. If anything the opposite is true.

    North Korea has made plenty of threats, and they have nukes.

    Worried, no I thought not.

    Parent

    Squeaky (1.00 / 0) (#41)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:40:21 PM EST
    Really?

    Iran funds Hezabolla and provides it weapons, and it is no threat?

    There is no hope for you.

    Parent

    We'll never learn.... (none / 0) (#45)
    by kdog on Thu May 24, 2007 at 06:43:21 AM EST
    America deciding for the people of Iran...thats what got us into this mess Slado.

    Parent
    kdog (1.00 / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:35:39 AM EST
    America also decided for the people of Italy, Germany, Japan, etc....

    Parent
    DA (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu May 24, 2007 at 07:40:36 PM EST
    Say hello to Chamberlain the next time you see him..

    Peace in our time sounds so very good.

    Parent

    Dems just like the old congress (none / 0) (#6)
    by Slado on Wed May 23, 2007 at 12:01:30 PM EST
    I thought they ran on a "culture of coruption"?

    Seems like the same old congress to me.

    NYT

    Is that what she meant? (none / 0) (#12)
    by Slado on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:35:53 PM EST
    I read it that way too at first but I think she is talking more about the process of dealing with immigrants and how we treat them as criminals once they enter the system.

    I don't know how else to treat them but in any case I think Jeralyn was talking more about that then we should have totally open boarders.

    I hope she isn't saying that.

    Huh (none / 0) (#16)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:33:06 PM EST
    Maybe so Slado.

    Although, now that I think about it, is is very common, or even at all common, to detain illegal aliens who's only offense is their illegalness?

    In most of the stories I'm aware of concerning detained illegal aliens, their illegalness was only one of their several offenses which included possessing forged or stolen ID's and/or SS#'s, disobeying previous court orders to leave the country, etc., etc.

    Parent

    Not really. (none / 0) (#23)
    by Gabriel Malor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:11:26 PM EST
    Aliens who are caught attempting to enter without inspection are automatically detained and placed in expedited removal proceedings.

    Aliens who are caught inside the U.S. illegally are usually detained for a day to do the paperwork and then bonded out.

    Aliens who commit criminal violations may be detained by the civil authorities, rather than ICE.

    Parent

    GM (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:48:52 PM EST
    Thanks for the info, makes sense, although I'm not sure what you meant by "not really."

    Considering there are something like 12,000,000+ un-detained illegal aliens here right now, it does not seem very common that they be detained only for their illegalness...nor common to be detained for any reason at all, come to think of it.

    Although my impression was that JM was mostly talking, for example, about the detention of  illegal aliens like what happened after that raid on the textile business in MA that she wrote about a month or so ago, which is why I made the point I did about detention and criminal offenses.

    I just now went back to the thread from which I took her quote above, and I didn't see any obvious indication of what her comment was specifically referring to, so I guess, now, that it was a general comment which would include those caught in raids on businesses as well as those caught as you describe.

    Regardless, considering, as others have pointed out, that there are civil offenses which can result in detention of citizens, I think her premise is not supported by the facts.

    Parent

    btw (none / 0) (#31)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 23, 2007 at 04:01:04 PM EST
    What I said to scribe below goes for you to.

    Parent
    What I meant was (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Jeralyn on Wed May 23, 2007 at 11:57:10 PM EST
    once here they are entitled to the same due process protections as the rest of us.  Constitutional rights apply to all those present in the U.S., not just citizens or those here legally.

    Parent
    They have due process rights. (none / 0) (#44)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu May 24, 2007 at 01:00:27 AM EST
    You've described the current situation. Aliens located in the United States (and even those outside the U.S. but who have a sufficient voluntary connection to the U.S.) are protected by the Fifth Amendment. In other words, they cannot be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process. To that extent, illegal aliens, once inside the U.S., are not different than citizens or aliens who entered legally.

    They must be afforded procedural due process, which includes timely hearings and neutral adjudicators. They also have the usual substantive due process protections (privacy, sexual liberty, etc.).

    However, just because aliens and citizens alike have due process rights, does not mean that aliens are allowed all the advantages of citizenship. Furthermore, the federal and state governments are well within their rights to grant benefits or place burdens on one classification and not the other.

    Some of the common benefits of citizenship that are not granted to aliens include a right to entry into the country and voting rights. Those are rights not secured to aliens. There are other mere benefits that are similarly unprotected by due process, including discretionary waivers of removal and drivers' licenses.

    When it comes to process over issues of naturalization and entry to the U.S., because those processes are entirely at the direction of the Congress, due process is what Congress declares is due.

    Jeralyn writes:

    we need to stop the criminal sanctions and detention for violating civil laws and we need to protect the workers who migrate here.  I don't care whether they are here with valid visas or not. Once here, they should receive the same rights as the rest of us have.

    But, to my knowledge, there have been no criminal sanctions for civil violations, unless she considers the act of detaining someone to be a form of criminal sanction. That may seem true at first glance, but is obviously not the case.

    Consider: it is indisputable that the federal government can remove aliens from the United States under the Naturalization Clause. The ability to detain aliens in order to facilitate that removal is a necessary and proper action of the federal government. Such detention must be allowed, not just during the period of actual physical removal, but also to ensure processing of papers and attendance at hearings. Much like the criminal justice system, most aliens are released on bond during the process.

    The similarities with the criminal justice system do not end there. For example, detentions must take place pursuant to a warrant, issued by or on behalf of the Attorney General. Detention may last only so long as the aliens removal is pending (except in the cases of aliens guilty of criminal violations, who may face charges in other jurisdicitions).

    In short, it might help if Jeralyn described just what practices she finds objectionable. I get that she doesn't like that aliens can be detained in what is essentially an administrative justice system separate from the criminal courts. But are you really saying you'd prefer them to be treated in the criminal court system? I suspect you'd rather not have them treated in any court system at all. Since that's never going to be an option, would you rather that Congress gives them their own process, or would you rather they be thrown in with the criminals?

    Parent

    Frustrating (none / 0) (#55)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 24, 2007 at 12:44:14 PM EST
    once here they are entitled to the same due process protections as the rest of us.
    although you may have stated innumerable times in the past exactly which due process protections you believe they should be afforded but are being denied, and perhaps you presume the rest of us are or should be as aware of your past statements as you are, to me, to present such an abstract statement here with no explanation nor example stops what could be an interesting and educational discussion in its tracks.

    iow, don't make us try to guess, what the heck are you specifically talking about?

    Parent

    Sorry. (none / 0) (#57)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu May 24, 2007 at 01:17:53 PM EST
    Due process (actually procedural due process, in this context) means that a person must be treated with "fundamental fairness" by the government before they can lose life, liberty, or property. So, due process rights kick in for the immigration context at the point that the government tries to deny an alien a liberty or property interest that he already possesses. For example, detention is a denial of liberty, and thus must be accompanied by due process.

    Stealing right from caselaw: "The fundamental requirement of due process is an opportunity to be heard upon such notice and in such proceedings as are adequate to safeguard the right for which the constitutional protection is invoked. "

    So, due process implicates things like reasonable notice of pending government action, an opportunity to be heard and to be told the reasons for government action, a neutral adjudicator, and (often, but not always) an opportunity to appeal.

    That's why I question Jeralyn when she asks that aliens be given the same protections as citizens. Right now, they have all the same protections that I listed in the prior paragraph.

    Let's walk through an example of the process that was afforded to the SWIFT plant employees:

    (1) The first question is always whether or not a person has a protected interest (that would be life, liberty, or property). Here, they clearly have a liberty interest at stake and possibly a property interest in their employment (not really, but if I were their lawyers, I'd be making that argument anyway).

    (2) They were detained pursuant to a warrant. That warrant must be issued properly under the regs. So that's the first possible due process avenue of attack. Check to see if the warrant was proper.

    (3) They were issued notices to appear (NTAs) while detained. These absolutely must contain the date, time, and locations for their hearings (which are usually a few months in the future and in the same region of the country, though expedited removal at the border takes place much faster). That's the second possible avenue of attack. Check to see if the NTAs contain the required information or if they were supplemented later with the required information.

    (4) Some of them were released on bond. Bond is at the discretion of the AG or DHS, so there is probably no avenue of attack here, unless they were overcharged for bond (the statutory max is $1,500).

    (5) Some of them were moved to a detention facility until their hearing. Congress has provided for such action because release on bond is discretionary. Courts have upheld that as not a violation of due process, but if you really wanted to go up against the vast bulk of the law, you could challenge that, too.

    (6) The first hearing will be a master calendar hearing to inform the Immigration Judge (IJ) what forms of relief the alien is requesting (if any) and to schedule the merits hearing on that relief (another few months down the road). Aliens can have lawyers at these and the court provides a translator if necessary. If no relief is requested or if the alien does not appear at their hearing an order for removal will be issued.

    (7) After the merits hearing, if relief is declined, or after the removal order is issued, the alien may appeal to the Board of Immigration Appeals (BIA) if they wish to contest the disposition. They may also make Motions to Reopen or Motions to Reconsider with that particular IJ.

    (8) If they don't like the BIA's decision they can make Motions to Reopen or Motions to Reconsider with the BIA, too.

    (9) If they can raise a constitutional question or question of fact, they can then appeal to the Circuit Courts of Appeal (and then to the Supreme Court, if they want).

    In other words, they get a heckuvalotta process. I think the burden is on Jeralyn to describe where this system is unfair.

    Parent

    My comment was meant to be directed to JM and I should have indicated such.
    I think the burden is on Jeralyn to describe where this system is unfair.
    You said it way more succinctly than me, I'm in full agreement with you. Sorry to make you write the whole thing out...

    Parent
    Oh. Well, darn. n/t (none / 0) (#59)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu May 24, 2007 at 01:35:15 PM EST
    Yes (none / 0) (#60)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu May 24, 2007 at 02:07:58 PM EST
    It would be nice if JM responded, but I doubt she will. Probaly have to save it for another time...

    Parent
    Incarceration for a civil infraction? (none / 0) (#13)
    by JSN on Wed May 23, 2007 at 01:49:15 PM EST
    The only things I can think of are incarceration for contempt (which I don't think is very common) or for illegal entry when there is a high risk of flight (which may be too common). Failure to pay could be converted into a contempt charge so it is possible to have a debtors prison in this country.

    What other civil infractions could result in incarceration?

    I work with jail data a lot and people ask me all the time if there are people in jail who don't need to be there. The answer is yes but the jail administration is trying to get out them as fast as possible because they need the space for people who do need to be there. I do not know if the Sheriff has the authority to throw out people who don't need to be there to make room for a more serious offender. They do have the authority to keep people from entering jail if they are full.

    They also do not want mentally ill people in jail. We have a diversion program for mentally ill at our jail and all the sheriffs in Iowa want to know how we got it started so they can try to start one in their jail.

    civil incarceration (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by scribe on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:42:51 PM EST
    Some states still have debtors' prison, both pre-and post-judgment, under the writs of capias ad respondendum (ca. re.) and capias ad satisfaciendum (ca. sa.), respectively.  

    If the judge issues a ca. re. (and it ain't easy to get), that substitutes as initial process for the summons to start the lawsuit.  In other words, you use the Sheriff as the process server, and he serves the defendant with the lawsuit papers with handcuffs.  The defendant then goes to jail and stays in jail until he puts up bail - usually in the amount the defendant is being sued for.  

    Under ca. sa., which the judge issues post-judgment to aid in execution and collection of judgments, the judgment debtor is held in jail until he pays up.  The usual basis for issuance of a ca. sa. is the well-supported allegation that a judgment debtor is fraudulenty hiding assets to thwart collection/payment on a judgment, usually keeping them outside of the jurisdiction of the court.  This usually follows only after failed attempts to execute on the judgment debtor's assets by usual means.  I have read of a man owing money to a casino (or an ex-wife, I forget which) who has been in a New Jersey jail on a ca. sa. for something like seven years.

    Some other states also have the writ of ne exeat, which is sort of like arrest, in that it prohibits the person from leaving the jurisdiction.

    Some states prohibit the issuance of these writs, either by statute or even in their state Constitutions.  Some states are silent on them.

    And then there's the material witness statute - under that you get arrested and go to jail because you are believed to be a witness, not because you are liable for anything civil or criminal.  And, under this statute, you stay in jail (no right to counsel or speedy trial, either) until the government decides they're done with needing you.

    These are four aspects of civil incarceration, beyond contempt, which can happen.  There may be more which I have forgotten about.

    Parent

    Thanks scribe (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:03:26 PM EST
    In all seriousness, this blog benefits immeasurable from folks like you who have knowledge and opinions to give some balance to the rest of the hacks like me who only have opinions...

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    Like I said above (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 23, 2007 at 02:37:06 PM EST
    Are there many, if any, illegal aliens who are detained only for the civil infraction of being in the country illegally? In most of the stories I've heard those detained had at least some, if not a bunch, of criminal offenses as well...

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    INS does use local jails to hold (none / 0) (#24)
    by JSN on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:15:26 PM EST
    illegals picked up in a raid. So for them illegal entry would be the only charge. If  the illegal is arrested and jailed on a criminal charge the county can be partially reimbursed for the cost of incarceration under fairly restricted circumstances. This means that the sheriffs office will report that have an illegal in custody in order to get the money. The INS will then issue a warrant so the person is held for them until after the county has processed their case.

    I did a one day snapshot of our jail and of 120 prisoners only one was being held for INS. Our jail has overflowed so we don't have room to lease beds to INS. The jail where the Federal Courthouse is located probably averages 60 to 100 INS detainees.

    Parent

    Thanks JSN (none / 0) (#30)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Wed May 23, 2007 at 03:49:44 PM EST
    Color coded jump suits. (none / 0) (#38)
    by JSN on Wed May 23, 2007 at 07:17:50 PM EST
    Jeralyn wrote about the various colored jump suits worn by jail inmates. My recollection is that the LA County jail uses at least four
    colors to designate the security class of the inmate. I wonder how that influences the  outcome of initial appearance.

    I wonder how people would react during a presidential debate if the candidates all were required to wear an orange jump suit.

    a closer analogy ... (none / 0) (#40)
    by Sailor on Wed May 23, 2007 at 09:11:15 PM EST
    ... some of them have to wear orange jumpsuits.


    Parent
    That is the position the Constitution. (none / 0) (#46)
    by Edger on Thu May 24, 2007 at 07:47:44 AM EST
    Whether or not someone steps across the border.

    Which is probably one of the main reasons behind the Number of Evangelical Law Schools Growing that teach the students how to circumvent the constitution, eliminate the separation of church and state and deprive all of us of constitutional rights.

    And probably the main reason that Bush has been stacking the Supreme Court with right wing ideologues and religious nutbars. So that they can "interpret" the Constitution and the Bill of Rights - interpret 'the right way', of course.

    Why bother going to all the trouble?

    If people, love theocracy so much... well, they can always move to Iran. Or Iraq, for that matter - 4 years of working towards turning it into a theocracy is pretty close now to "mission accomplished", after all.

    To Whom Does the Bill of Rights Apply?

    ...the Constitution doesn't apply to Americans, it doesn't apply to citizens, it doesn't even apply to "people." It applies to the federal government. The body of the Constitution tells the federal government what it is allowed to do, and in some places it explains how to do it (election procedures and such). The Bill of Rights tells the federal government what it is not allowed to do . . .

       1. Make no law abridging freedom of speech, press, religion, or assembly,
       2. Do not infringe on the right to keep and bear arms.
       3. Don't quarter soldiers in peacetime.
       4. Don't conduct unreasonable searches and seizures.
       5. Don't commit double jeopardy or force people to testify against themselves.
       6. Don't deny an accused a speedy trial.
       7. Don't deny an accused a trial by jury.
       8. Do not impose excessive bail.
       9. Just because certain rights of the people aren't mentioned in this Constitution doesn't mean you're allowed to usurp them.
      10. Don't exercise any power not authorized in this Constitution

    The Constitution/Bill of Rights tells the government what it is NOT allowed to do - to anyone, anywhere, anytime, for any reason.

    Damn pesky and inconvenient god*amn piece of paper.

    It shouldn't be surprising, I suppose, that wingnuts holler and scream so much that they love freedom and rights.

    As long as it is only them with freedom and rights.

    The freedom and rights of anyone else scares the living sh*t out of them.

    I guess because the Constitution (none / 0) (#47)
    by Edger on Thu May 24, 2007 at 07:53:07 AM EST
    has been around for so many years now, people forget just how subversive, and just ho far beyond the fringe it is, was, and always will be.

    Not to worry, George is doing his best to fix that, though.

    Parent

    Heh. (none / 0) (#48)
    by Edger on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:10:45 AM EST
    The addled progressive liberal moonbat concepts that drove the founders to declare independence and eventually write the constitution, and that other addled concept that nobody is the "chosen" people, regardless of how long they bask in the glory of gawd... is a tough one to get a grip one.

    What would the prophets think? Or not think?

    Parent

    And it often seems that (none / 0) (#51)
    by Edger on Thu May 24, 2007 at 08:44:01 AM EST
    the toughest concept for people to wrap their minds around is that nobodys rights are protected unless everybodys rights are protected.

    Parent