home

Faith vs. Science

So a Creationism "Museum" is opening:

[T]his museum created by the Answers in Genesis ministry . . . combines displays of extraordinary nautilus shell fossils and biblical tableaus, celebrations of natural wonders and allusions to human sin. Evolution gets its continual comeuppance, while biblical revelations are treated as gospel. Outside the museum scientists may assert that the universe is billions of years old, that fossils are the remains of animals living hundreds of millions of years ago, and that life’s diversity is the result of evolution by natural selection. But inside the museum the Earth is barely 6,000 years old, dinosaurs were created on the sixth day . . .

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but beliefs can not dictate to science. thus, you can believe this if you want:

Fossils, the museum teaches, are no older than Noah’s flood; in fact dinosaurs were on the ark.

But you don't get to teach it at public schools. The First Amendment doncha you know. Separation of Church and State.

< Good Journalism From The Boston Globe | The Iraq Debacle: There Is No Real Argument >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    T-Rex and Velociraptors were on The Ark? (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by SeeEmDee on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:31:30 AM EST
    It would have required true Divine Intervention to prevent the extinction of Humanity if every carnivorous species of dinosaur was bunkmates with Noah and Company. In-effin'-credible.

    They're coming out of the woodwork for sure, now...

    Besides that.... (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by kdog on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:38:46 AM EST
    How freakin' big were the brontosaurus and the T-rex?  That boat must have been bigger than Manhattan Island.  Noah must have been the best ship-builder in the history of mankind...where did he score all that timber?  

    Parent
    Aliens (none / 0) (#16)
    by squeaky on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:40:17 AM EST
    From outer space helped him. It is obvious.

    Parent
    tut tut (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:50:50 AM EST
    you godless heathens!

    Didn't you know that Noah only took the baby dinosaurs?

    10 bonus points to whomever can tell the rest of us here why Tyrannasaurus Rex had big teeth.  When you are searching for the answer I warn you not to have any liquid in your mouth. :)

    (hint the fundies believe that all animals were hebivores before the fall, so no points for saying the teeth are for chewing meat.)

    I shall return to improve your heathen education later...

    Parent

    ummmmmmmmmmm (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by cpinva on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:36:43 PM EST
    'cause his head would have looked really funny with small teeth? lol

    actually, it was to be able to rip out huge chunks 'o carrion, big T's favorite kind 'o meal.

    now, for real trivia: why'd he have such tiny arms, relative to the size of the rest of his body?

    Parent

    wrong cpinva! (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:57:40 PM EST
    Oh you've been indoctrinated by the leftist teaching EVIL-UTION!

    In fundie land, somewhere beyond the bounds of satire; When a curious museum visitor asks, why exactly T. rex had six-inch long serrated teeth, the guides go on to explain that T. rex used his big teeth to open coconuts.

    Why did T-Rex have small arms? to stop him picking his nose obviously!


    Parent

    and all this time ... (none / 0) (#30)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:34:27 PM EST
    ... I thought it was to prevent him from committing the sin of Onan.

    Parent
    you mean (none / 0) (#34)
    by Jen M on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:59:29 PM EST
    it wasn't?

    Parent
    i sit in awe gollo! (none / 0) (#57)
    by cpinva on Wed May 30, 2007 at 01:27:52 AM EST
    who knew big "T" even liked coconuts? and here i thought he just gulped his food down, chewing being a modern-day sort of idea.

    and you knew about the tiny arms too! you are a paleontological god! lol

    of course, this also explains why the big guy is always portrayed as being sort of angry. :)

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#36)
    by Jen M on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:04:49 PM EST
    It was Dr. Who

    The ark was a TARDIS

    of course

    Parent

    Protestant Sunday School materials in (none / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:05:35 PM EST
    Midwest did not include this important information.  

    Parent
    well abdul (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by cpinva on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:38:39 AM EST
    you might be on to something, if there were something there, other than hot air. please provide documented evidence of mr. gore dictating to scientists that they have a consensus. i won't bother looking for it, because it doesn't exist.

    mr. gore has dictated to no one, he's taken the scientific consensus, of reputable climatologists, not apologists for the energy industry, and used it as the basis for his lectures and documentary.

    two climatologists don't, by themselves, deny a consensus, as webster's defines the term.

    as for the "creationism" museum, it's utter nonsense, lacking any scientific merit. however, as the man said, you're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

    oddly enough, nowhere in the old testament are dinosaurs mentioned as being on the ark. i'm sure it was merely an oversight.

    Pick and choose (1.00 / 1) (#14)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:36:54 AM EST
    "mr. gore has dictated to no one, he's taken the scientific consensus, of reputable climatologists, not apologists for the energy industry..."

    In plain English this is picking and choosing the scientists that agree with you. Calling those with opposing views "apologists for the energy industry" is nothing more than than a way to ignore any scientific fact that does not agree with your belief system.  This is hardly defines a consensus.  The same shabby trick is used by the 9/11 truthers to show the towers were brought down by controlled explosions.  

    Parent

    the rest of us (none / 0) (#23)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:30:13 PM EST
    we're talking about religious views being forced thru government outlets, your climate change strawman, in addition to being silly, is off topic.

    IRT creationism, it is only proposed by religious wackdoodles who have no concept of science, only a christofascist desire to justify their reading of their bible and impose it on everyone else.

    Astronomy, biology, archeology, physics etc etc etc all agree that the 6k year scenario is BS. EEven simple geometry disproves it, unless these fundamentally unchristian folks think they can repeal the speed of light.

    Parent

    salior - Please keep up (none / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:31:23 PM EST
    we're talking about religious views being forced thru government outlets

    Actually the museum:

     

    (is)created by the Answers in Genesis ministry

    Is that part of Dept of Religion?? Who knew??

    Parent

    the office of feith based initiatives (none / 0) (#66)
    by Sailor on Wed May 30, 2007 at 09:42:26 PM EST
    Having attended High School... (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by Dadler on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:47:16 AM EST
    ...at the largest evangelical high school in the country (another reason to love Orange County), and learning science from books like "Biology for Christian Schools" from Bob Jones University Press (which I kept, by the way, I couldn't resist the temptation), where it stated "Dinosaurs, probably small ones, were actually aboard Noah's Ark", I can attest to this being actively taught in their "schools".  The book's introduction laid it out clearly: "The people who have prepared this book have tried consistently to put the Word of God first and science second."  I remember pictures of dinosaurs trotting up the gangplank of the ark.  My biology teacher would also say that carbon dating is really only accurate to 10,000 years, which, coincidentally, is about how long we think the universe has existed.

    A lot of soothsaying and question begging: God created the world.  How do you know?  Because it says so in the Bible.  How do you know the Bible is true?  Because God wrote it.

    BTW, we've got our own creation museum down here in LoCal already.

    No, but seriously (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Al on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:32:24 PM EST
    There is a frontal assault going on now against science, and rationality in general. The reason for this is political. Simply put, people who relinquish their ability to reason for themselves are easy to manipulate. If someone can be convinced that the world was created 6,000 years ago and dinosaurs ate coconuts, then they can be convinced of anything.

    Make no mistake: This is not about how old the Earth is. This is a battle for people's minds.

    All religions do this it seems... (none / 0) (#38)
    by kdog on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:11:18 PM EST
    The muslim crazies seem to be very adept at getting their followers to relinquish their ability to reason....and strap on bombs for god.

    The jewish crazies are also adept....they convince their followers that god reserved a slice of earth just for them.

    I guess you could say religion is inherently unreasonable.

    Parent

    That's a different matter (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by Al on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:32:01 PM EST
    I'm not talking about crazies performing violent acts. You could add to your list Catholics who murder abortion doctors.

    I'm talking about the attack on science and independent rational thought. Regarding evolution, which clearly obsesses Christian fundamentalists, Muslims don't seem to have a major problem with it, because the Qur'an is short on specifics, except to say that humans were created by God. So they have issues with the idea of humans evolving from other species, but not to the point of funding museums. In fact, Islam has been notoriously friendly towards science, especially mathematics and astronomy.

    Judaism doesn't appear to have strong objections to the findings of science, although they do believe in a Creator. Judaism is also a science-friendly religion and has no problem with rational thinking.

    For Buddhism, as far as I can tell, the question of whether the universe was created is not relevant. Buddhism is not a theistic religion (one might question whether it is a religion at all), and is perfectly at ease with rational thought and science.

    Hinduism is not at all anti-scientific either, quite the contrary. In any case, Hindus seem to be more interested in the evolution of consciousness than in physical evolution.

    I think it would be contrary to the spirit of any of these religions to actively attack science.

    Parent

    In fact... (5.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Aaron on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:44:42 PM EST
    ... the Islamic world helped create our modern understanding of mathematics and astronomy.  Many of the names we use to describe the night sky came from the earliest known astronomers in the Middle East.

    Parent
    The Intelligent Design/Creationism scam (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Aaron on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:26:54 PM EST
    I don't BELIEVE in evolution, I have no need to, nor does anyone need to believe in a scientific theory or the scientific method.  Science is about proving and disapproving, belief is not necessary, nor should it ever be considered in the realm of science.  It's no different than mathematical theory, I don't need to believe that 1+1 = 2 since it is easy to demonstrate.  Evolution is more complex, but no less demonstrable. If you reject evolutionary theory, then you must reject everything connected with it, biology, chemistry, physics, DNA, modern medicine etc. they're all connected, all built upon one another.

    Intelligent design and creationism on the other hand, have no basis in science whatsoever, let me repeat that for the peanut gallery, NO BASIS IN SCIENCE WHATSOEVER, it's a sham that was created for political purposes.  The same people who espouse and promote intelligent design and creationism, believe that its ethical and morally acceptable to deceitfully prey upon the followers of a religious belief by playing upon their superstitions with this concocted pseudoscience.  Their aim is to manipulate the faithful into falling in line with a specific political agenda.  Such pseudo-religious movements can be found in every society and among every faith.  I find them utterly reprehensible and they must be condemned in the strongest terms.

    The construction of this museum in Kentucky speaks to the depths of the depravity to which these people have sunk in America.   I look forward to the day when this affront to reason and truth is demolished and lays in ruins along with the lies which brought it about.

    Aaron (none / 0) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:28:45 PM EST
    The construction of this museum in Kentucky speaks to the depths of the depravity to which these people have sunk in America.
     

    Have you ever read about some of the groups that settled this country?

    All in the name of freedom of religon...

    It occurs to me that your railing about this is just the flip side of the same coin...

    In a few years each of you will know who is right.

    Send me a card and tell me who's the winner. ;-)

    Parent

    Stories like these (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue May 29, 2007 at 09:38:43 AM EST
    always make me think of Inherit the Wind.

    question (none / 0) (#2)
    by peacrevol on Tue May 29, 2007 at 09:53:42 AM EST
    does separation of church and state mean that teachers cant teach about religion and its effects on society over the ages? it seems that religion should be at least given some class time, but maybe that's what college is for? i could understand why it could be difficult to cover, what with all the parents getting angry b/c the teacher put a different perspective on it than they do, but it is a relatively important subject when you get onto the topic of diversity and tolerence for others...

    You can teach about religion (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:01:30 AM EST
    but you can not teach religion as truth or science.

    Parent
    The real kicker will come when we finally meet (none / 0) (#4)
    by kindness on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:21:50 AM EST
    folks from other planets.

    Yea, I'm one of those.  But truly....I really do look forward to seeing how the Creationists and fundamentalists of all stripes try to explain away how they are still right.  It'll be such fun.

    No Problem (none / 0) (#15)
    by squeaky on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:38:18 AM EST
    Their irrationality knows no bounds.

    Parent
    kindness (none / 0) (#21)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:27:53 PM EST
    Yea, I'm one of those.

    Nino Nino

    BTW - I think "God created heaven and earth" is a Big Tent Religion.

    ;-)

    Parent

    The funny thing is (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:30:31 PM EST
    What is wrong with the theory God created evolution?

    I think that is what Einstein favored.

    Parent

    Because that God's not personal enough (none / 0) (#28)
    by Dadler on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:09:46 PM EST
    Einstein believed in the unfathomable mystery of existence, in an impersonal God not interested in the petty problems of humans.  Most Americans would view you as weird for expressing such beliefs.  Americans are enamored with the personal God, the kind that will positively intervene in their tiny life, in minor ways, major ways and everything in between -- while, inexplicably, letting millions of others suffer.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:13:06 PM EST
    amazing how God let's all that bad stuff happen.

    Parent
    Einstein who? (none / 0) (#31)
    by peacrevol on Tue May 29, 2007 at 01:47:30 PM EST
    I think a lot of people favor a seven day theory and only count the history that's listed in the Bible. They hear that the world was created in 7 days and tend to think of it literally as day and night. Also, they tend to fail to consider that the current calandar system is relatively new. They have a literal interpretation of what it says in the Bible and they compare that to what they know. I wonder how similar the Bible as we know it is to the original text in its original language(s?). IMO, the main difference between religions is interpretation. Perhaps because religion is for the most part just an interpreation. That, unfortunately is also the root of religious intolerance, violence, persecution, and warfare.

    As for God being more personally accessible, my faith is that the true intimate connection between me and God is the faith itself, a conscience, and my ability to reason.

    Parent

    they also forget (none / 0) (#35)
    by Jen M on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:02:02 PM EST
    that whole tendency to speak in parables thingie.

    Parent
    firstly (none / 0) (#39)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 03:23:38 PM EST
    the Hebrew Bible was transmitted orally, then translated however the translator decided, then by a consensus, word for word, except Greek and Latin, which was mostly 'Sense for Sense'.

    The earliest examples in English, are in Old English, by a cowherd called Caedmon who is thought to have worked at Whitby Abby, which for trivia buffs is also the port where the ship carrying Count Dracula landed, and the inspiration for that novel.

    Parent

    Not to mention ... (none / 0) (#44)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:28:38 PM EST
    ... all the chapters in the king james bible were selected by king james. Hence 'apocrypha.'

    Parent
    It's not a theory. It's just an idea. (none / 0) (#40)
    by Edger on Tue May 29, 2007 at 05:54:49 PM EST
    A 'theory' is testable by scientific method. Whether or not 'god' exists is not testable.

    Whether there is something wrong with the idea is debatable. :-) Calling it a theory is not.

    Parent

    Oh I hate that argument (none / 0) (#41)
    by Jen M on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:19:44 PM EST
    "its just a theory its just a theory"

    1. Biggest lie in the english language: the word "just"  -- in more than one sense of the word.

    2. Gravity is too, but you don't see me floating around.


    Parent
    I don't quite get your point. (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:25:00 PM EST
    Are you agreeing that it is not a theory, or saying that it is?

    Parent
    but beliefs can not dictate to science (none / 0) (#5)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:27:49 AM EST
    ...but beliefs can not dictate to science.

    So Gore cannot tell scientists that they have a consensus!  Did not two state climatologists draw political heat recently for questioning the Gore's beliefs.

    Washington State and:

    Gov. Ruth Ann Minner has directed Delaware's state climatologist to stop using his title in public statements on climate change, citing a clash of views on global warming and confusion over the position's ties to the administration.


    Gore can not tell them to have a consensus (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:33:33 AM EST
    But you can not make it untrue that they do by writing stupid comments.

    Parent
    Faith (none / 0) (#11)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:18:35 AM EST

    The interesting thing about this "consensus" is that it is always asserted, and never demonstrated.

    That seems more a chatacteristic of a belief system than of science.

    Parent

    Never demonstrrated? (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:30:30 AM EST
    Oh boy. Whatever you say chief.

    Parent
    Science Magazine says (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:33:41 AM EST
    link:

    Policy-makers and the media, particularly in the United States, frequently assert that climate science is highly uncertain. Some have used this as an argument against adopting strong measures to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. For example, while discussing a major U.S. Environmental Protection Agency report on the risks of climate change, then-EPA administrator Christine Whitman argued, "As [the report] went through review, there was less consensus on the science and conclusions on climate change" (1). Some corporations whose revenues might be adversely affected by controls on carbon dioxide emissions have also alleged major uncertainties in the science (2). Such statements suggest that there might be substantive disagreement in the scientific community about the reality of anthropogenic climate change. This is not the case.

    The scientific consensus is clearly expressed in the reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Created in 1988 by the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environmental Programme, IPCC's purpose is to evaluate the state of climate science as a basis for informed policy action, primarily on the basis of peer-reviewed and published scientific literature (3). In its most recent assessment, IPCC states unequivocally that the consensus of scientific opinion is that Earth's climate is being affected by human activities: "Human activities ... are modifying the concentration of atmospheric constituents ... that absorb or scatter radiant energy. ... [M]ost of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations" [p. 21 in (4)].

    IPCC is not alone in its conclusions. In recent years, all major scientific bodies in the United States whose members' expertise bears directly on the matter have issued similar statements. For example, the National Academy of Sciences report, Climate Change Science: An Analysis of Some Key Questions, begins: "Greenhouse gases are accumulating in Earth's atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures to rise" [p. 1 in (5)]. The report explicitly asks whether the IPCC assessment is a fair summary of professional scientific thinking, and answers yes: "The IPCC's conclusion that most of the observed warming of the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations accurately reflects the current thinking of the scientific community on this issue" [p. 3 in (5)].

    Others agree. The American Meteorological Society (6), the American Geophysical Union (7), and the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) all have issued statements in recent years concluding that the evidence for human modification of climate is compelling (8).

    The drafting of such reports and statements involves many opportunities for comment, criticism, and revision, and it is not likely that they would diverge greatly from the opinions of the societies' members. Nevertheless, they might downplay legitimate dissenting opinions. That hypothesis was tested by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change" (9).

    Wil this matter to you? Of course not. But for the record.

    Parent

    How its done (1.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:53:59 AM EST
    The drafting of such reports and statements involves many opportunities for comment, criticism, and revision, and it is not likely that they would diverge greatly from the opinions of the societies' members. Nevertheless, they might downplay legitimate dissenting opinions.

    Downplaying dissent (the highest form of patriotism to many) is not a demonstration of consesnus, but of just the opposite.

    Parent

    dissent; (none / 0) (#20)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:14:53 PM EST
    The drafting of such reports and statements involves many opportunities for comment, criticism, and revision, and it is not likely that they would diverge greatly from the opinions of the societies' members. Nevertheless, they might downplay legitimate dissenting opinions.

    That hypothesis was tested by analyzing 928 abstracts, published in refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change" (9).

    The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.
    Admittedly, authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point.



    Parent
    There was no dissent to downplay (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:29:24 PM EST
    Well...well... (5.00 / 2) (#26)
    by Ernesto Del Mundo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 12:36:44 PM EST
    That's because it's all one big enviro-whacko conspiracy!

    (just saving the wingnuts some trouble in typing)

    Parent

    Dissent to what? (none / 0) (#32)
    by Abdul Abulbul Amir on Tue May 29, 2007 at 02:09:26 PM EST

    1. The planet is warming.  

    This seems to be agreed to by everyone.

    2. Human activity influences climate toward warming.

    Again, near total agreement that humans have influenced climate since the use of fire and the dawn of agriculture.

    3. The climate is constantly changing, and will continue to change.

    What is in dispute is the assertion that that consensus also includes an end of the world scenario if we don't quit using fossil fuels in the next decade or so.

    Parent

    Nope (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Al on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:45:39 PM EST
    The use of fire and the dawn of agriculture contributed nothing to climate change. The jump in the rate of temperature increase happens in the last 150 years or so, and is accelerating.

    Nobody has suggested quitting using fossil fuels in the next decade or so. We certainly do have to cut back drastically on carbon emissions if the trend in the graph linked to above is to be changed.

    Your refusal to accept experimental data is quite in keeping with this thread. And it supports my claim that the attack on science is political in nature. People who can be convinced not to believe in "their own lying eyes" as Groucho Marx said, can be convinced of absolutely anything.

    Parent

    How do you explain this? (none / 0) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 29, 2007 at 06:57:30 PM EST
    It is well established, for example, from historical accounts, that a thousand
    years ago, well before the onset of industrialisation, there was - at least in
    Europe - what has become known as the mediaeval warm period, when
    temperatures were probably at least as high as, if not higher than, they are
    today.
    Going back even further, during the Roman empire, it may have been even
    warmer. There is archaeological evidence that in Roman Britain, vineyards
    existed on a commercial scale at least as far north as Northamptonshire.


    Parent
    OFF TOPIC TROLL POST (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:12:23 PM EST
    The thread is about creationism, not climate change.

    Parent
    Salior (none / 0) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:24:05 PM EST
    Tell it to the Marines.

    Parent
    i would explain this (none / 0) (#56)
    by gollo on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:47:19 PM EST
    It is well established, for example, from historical accounts, that a thousand
    years ago, well before the onset of industrialisation, there was - at least in
    Europe - what has become known as the mediaeval warm period, when
    temperatures were probably at least as high as, if not higher than, they are
    today.
    Going back even further, during the Roman empire, it may have been even
    warmer. There is archaeological evidence that in Roman Britain, vineyards
    existed on a commercial scale at least as far north as Northamptonshire.

    as the scientists who agree or not on global warming do; it is solar variation, a factor that is included in climate models.  To suggest that the scientists are unaware of this effect and its causes is ludicrous in the extreme. Do you think that they don't know what they are doing?  The brightest people in their field don't know climate basics?

    Maybe you should give them a call and tell them of this exciting unknown variation?

    Parent

    The Climate Skeptic Scam (none / 0) (#49)
    by Edger on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:29:08 PM EST
    The attack on science is political in nature. Of that there is no doubt.
    There is a line between public relations and propaganda - or there should be. And there is a difference between using your skills, in good faith, to help rescue a battered reputation and using them to twist the truth - to sow confusion and doubt on an issue that is critical to human survival.
    ...
    Few PR offences have been so obvious, so successful and so despicable as the attack on the scientific certainty of climate change.
    ...
    One of the best examples - the most compelling proofs that the disinformation generation is no accident - came in a November 2002 memo from political consultant Frank Luntz to the U.S. Republican Party. Luntz followed the rules: he did the research; he identified the soft spots in public opinion; and he made a clever critical judgment about which way the public could be induced to move.

    In a section entitled "Winning the Global Warming Debate," Luntz says this (and all the points of emphasis are his own):

    "The Scientific Debate Remains Open. Voters believe that there is no consensus about global warming within the scientific community. Should the public come to believe that the scientific issues are settled, their views about global warming will change accordingly. Therefore, you need to make the lack of scientific certainty a primary issue in the debate, and defer to scientists and other experts in the field."

    Slamming the Climate Skeptic Scam

    Parent
    Nearly six years later (none / 0) (#50)
    by Edger on Tue May 29, 2007 at 07:55:39 PM EST
    Video: Luntz Converts On Global Warming, Distances Himself From Bush
    LUNTZ: It's now 2006. Now I think most people would conclude that there is global warming taking place, and that the behavior of humans are affecting the climate.

    QUESTION: But the administration has continued to follow your advice. They're still questioning the science.

    LUNTZ: That's up to the administration. I'm not the administration. What they want to do is their business. And it's nothing to do with what I write. And it's nothing to do with what I believe.



    Parent
    Edger (none / 0) (#54)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:25:38 PM EST
    You don't have to be an expert at anything to understand that "consensus" isn't science.

    Parent
    if it is a consensus of scientists (none / 0) (#58)
    by Jen M on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:17:05 AM EST
    peer reviewed studies
    and verifiable observations

    then yes, it is

    Parent

    Edger - Duke and National Geographic (none / 0) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 30, 2007 at 08:06:28 AM EST
    What (none / 0) (#63)
    by jondee on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:43:46 PM EST
    about all the other scientists at that hive of anti-war Leftists; you interested in what the other scientists at Duke have to say or just what "Duke" (the one that agrees with you) has to say?

    Parent
    DA (none / 0) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 30, 2007 at 08:39:27 PM EST
    You sure are incapable of understanding.

    Repeat after me.

    WHEN YOU CAN QUIT TALKING ABOUT CONSENUS AND USING QUALIFIER WORDS LET ME KNOW.

    UNTIL THEN IT ISN'T SCIENCE.

    Parent

    when salesmen go bad (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Sailor on Wed May 30, 2007 at 09:39:37 PM EST
    Hucksters don't do research, they lie for a living. No wonder they hate facts so much.

    When every scientist in the field agrees that the data supports the conclusions, there is a consensus. Consensus, in this context, means they agree.

    It's not politics, where any liar, or salesman, can give an uninformed opinion, and if he has the votes he can force a 'compromise.' Consensus is not a qualifier, this is not a consensus of opinion, it is a scientifically arrived at fact.

    But the sheer stupidity some husksters show by thinking people in science 'vote' on facts just shows how misguided and willfully ignorant these fools are.

    It's not a matter of opinion, no one gives a flying f**k about your opinion, especially such an ignorant one, these are established facts.

    Parent

    gollo (none / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed May 30, 2007 at 06:35:49 PM EST
    Then how do you know isn't happening now??

    Fact is you don't.

    Don't forget to sacrifice to the Moon God otherwise Delp of the Underworld will steal our water for your crops.

    Parent

    Gore can say anything he wants (none / 0) (#10)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue May 29, 2007 at 10:40:42 AM EST
      He is a private citizen and not acting on behalf of the government. HE can proclaim  proof of man's exacerbation of global warming exists AND that man is thus angering God and we will all be punished by the God of Abraham. He could also claim GW is God's response to man's rejection of him and embrace of sin.

      When the government is the actor, it cannot promote religion in the sense of favoring one conception of religion over other conceptions or even religion generally over being non-religious or anti-religious.

       The government is not required to be "right." There is nothing to prohibit government from stating man's exacerbation of global warming has been proven-- but IT would be prohibited from interjecting as to God's supposed position on the subject.

     

    no, it isn't (none / 0) (#51)
    by cpinva on Tue May 29, 2007 at 08:15:47 PM EST
    What is in dispute is the assertion that that consensus also includes an end of the world scenario if we don't quit using fossil fuels in the next decade or so.

    because not one of the reports, or the scientific consensus make this claim. again, show me.

    what has been noted is that the radical change in climate, resulting from the increased warming, will have an equally radical effect on the earth's population, both flora and fauna. this would include its human population. there has been no "end of the world scenario" posited.

    It is possible to prove a theory is false (none / 0) (#68)
    by JSN on Thu May 31, 2007 at 08:37:47 AM EST
    by testing it. If the theory passes the test it may or may not be true. If the theory consistently makes predictions that turn out to be true the prevailing view by scientists will tend toward thinking it is probably true.

    One of my professors told me that physicists did not reach a consensus on quantum mechanics the ones who did not believe in quantum mechanics all died. I told one of my colleagues that and he said I don't believe in quantum mechanics and I'm still alive. By the way several of my colleagues who are quantum mechanicians are very dubious of the theory of global climate change.

    Scientists are skeptics by necessity they have seen too many beautiful theories destroyed by ugly facts. I believe that much of the skepticism is based on the complexity of the problem.

    I have tremendous respect for Jim Hansen ever since I was a member of his thesis committee (a dust insulation model for Venus a fine piece of work even though it was wrong) but I think it is too early to say that the prevailing view of scientists is that the theory of human induced climate change is true. I do agree there is a very strong trend in that direction.

    One problem was that the data sets that were used to test the theory were not very reliable twenty or so years ago. In the past twenty years these data sets have been vastly improved.

    The are still unresolved questions about feedback (in particular by clouds) in the global climate system so to some degree the theory is incomplete. I don't think that ocean currents are very well understood and they transport an enormous amount of heat so that even a small change in an ocean current can have a major impact on climate.