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The Iraq Debacle: "Some Things Are Worth Losing Elections Over"

On ABC's This Week, Senator Joseph Biden really crystallized what is wrong with the Beltway Democrats' view of the Iraq Debacle.

Biden said he won't support continuing the Surge while at the same time saying he had to vote to FUND the Surge. This answer echoed his debate answer:

We have 50 votes in the United States Senate. We have less of a majority in the House than any time other than the last eight years. Ladies and gentlemen, you're going to end this war when you elect a Democratic president. You need 67 votes to end this war. . . . We're funding the safety of those troops there until we can get 67 votes...

Leaving aside the Orwellian "funding the safety of those troops" by voting to keep them in a war, what Biden is telling you is that even though he opposes continuing the war, he will vote to continue funding the war indefinitely. So let's be clear, Senator Biden, speaking for a good number of Beltway Democrats, including Netroots darlings like Senators Webb and Tester, despite opposing continuing the war, will not use the Not Spending power to end the Iraq Debacle. As long as this is true, the Iraq Debacle will not be ended. And, despite the protestations of these Democrats to the contrary, this means they are effectively, even if it is against their will, supporting President Bush's policies on the Iraq Debacle.

Many people, including many Democratic voters, understand and support this position. That is their right. They worry about electoral backlash, etc. In essence, despite saying, as Biden does, "that some things are worth losing elections over," mnay Democrats have calculated that ending the war (through the use of the Not Spending power by announcing a date certain when funding for the Iraq Debacle will end) is NOT worth losing an election over.

It so happens that I believe the riskier poltical play for Democrats is NOT ending the war. But even if it did have negative electoral consequences, it would be worth it to end the war. For the good of the country.

Beltway Democrats like Biden, Webb and Tester say they want to end the war but in the end, they vote in favor of Bush's policies. They claim they have good reason for doing this. Perhaps there are good reasons. But the bottom line is their votes are votes for the continuation of Bush's Iraq Debacle.

Say what you will about Senators' Clinton and Obama (yes they have not led on the issue like my favored candidate Sen. Chris Dodd), but at the least they are not voting for continuing Bush's Iraq Debacle.

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    Well, there's also the more siniser side (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 01:36:18 PM EST
    As you've noted before, some Democrats think that the "strategy" they're following now will allow them to run on Iraq in 08. I think that's the Hoyer position. Reid and Pelosi don't seem to believe this, but are toeing the minority line for the sake of party unity. Off a cliff I say, because running on Iraq is running empty.

    Running on having stopped it is not. (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 01:43:08 PM EST
    It would virtually guarantee them winning next year, imo.

    Parent
    If only. n/t (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by andgarden on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 01:44:18 PM EST
    Yeah, I know... (none / 0) (#4)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 02:13:28 PM EST
    Re: despite the protestations of these Democrats (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 02:23:57 PM EST
    to the contrary, this means they are effectively, even if it is against their will, supporting President Bush's policies on the Iraq Debacle.
    The continuous whine that "we don't have the votes" is also part of the big lie.

    If the Democrats stand up NOW and announce that they will no longer fund the occupation and that there will be no more emergency supplementals introduced when the current one runs out, the situation will become one of NO votes needed to NOT pass a bill. The ball will be in Bush's court.

    The Democrats have absolute power in this debate. What good is it and why should voters let them retain it next year if they are too weak kneed to use it to end the Debacle? If they will not, then by default they proclaim their complicity with Bush.

    The argument that 'defunding endangers the troops' is utter bullsh*t and is completely and irrefutably debunked. Let the rethugs try to accuse Democrats of it. Democrats will win that political argument, but ONLY if they have the cohones to do what they know is the right thing.

    As John Freelund wrote on May 27 at TPMCafe:

    Pin Bush and Gates Down

    At the next presidential press conference, I'd suggest question 1-5 be the following:

    "Are you Mr. President, and Mr. Secretary, prepared to leave troops in Iraq without adequate supplies?"

    Watch them squirm, watch them dance. They will not be able to say "yes." This is what the media and the Democrats should have been asking, over and over again, to frame this debate properly.

    If the Democrats don't want to do the right thing... it becomes obvious that they want to continue the occupation.
    Link

    The argument that 'defunding endangers the troops' (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 02:26:00 PM EST
    is utter bullsh*t and is completely and irrefutably debunked.

    Parent
    I don't know what it is (5.00 / 3) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:07:20 PM EST
    but there is a disturbance in the force and I feel very slightly hopeful today.  I have nothing against any Dem changing their position on funding from here on out.  In fact I'm looking very much forward to this September now that Petraeus isn't going to let them borrow his spine.  Biden is just the first.  It is okay to come to grips with the fact that you aren't representing your constituency so from Obama I want tears, no I want two episodes of tears at the podium and some sort of reflection on the faith of his father in at least one of those episodes!!  From Hillary, well if she doesn't throw herself upon the ground and scream "Satan Get Thee Behind Me" I'm not sure she's going to be able to keep up.  Sorry Edwards, because you aren't in the Senate you are probably going to have fly a jet and land on a defunding Love Boat cruise ship but we know you are talented and I know you can do this. As for the first Senator Wanna Be to the roast feast, gotta tell ya Joe I will never vote for you in this lifetime.  See I saw the Anita Hill thing.  I know I'm being horribly biased but dude, I have a vagina.

    Your diary yesterday was very good and (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:10:53 PM EST
    was not a short story, obviously. It still goes on. It must have been painful to start.

    Go, girl.

    Parent

    One of our kids is having a very hard time (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:35:55 PM EST
    with the upcoming deployment.  It has reached crisis level.  That pain, having that pain going on right now and the headlines spawned that whatever that was yesterday.  Thanks for the rec.

    Parent
    These friggin' ::politicians:: (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:39:36 PM EST
    think it's all just numbers. I think 90% of them wouldn't recognize a real human being if s/he dragged them off their podiums and strangled them with the mic cord.

    Parent
    I saw that Batiste was going to live blog (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:49:32 PM EST
    at orange today.  I'm ashamed to say that sweet little me, MT, saw that and I was laying for him if he wasn't sane.  I was a sniper stalking through the brush looking for one false move to beat the snot out of a General over and take my frustrations out on.  Damned if he wasn't stone cold sane as well as professing his Republican not a peace activist status.  Just the damned facts Jack and sadly the diary seemed to have a very short life on the Orange Rec list.  Still gives me hope and there's a lot of really mean linking to be had out of that diary.

    Parent
    He's a pretty straight talker it seems (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:55:56 PM EST
    Did you see Olbermann interview him?

    Parent
    This exchange snagged me (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 06:05:50 PM EST
    Sorry so long

    General Batiste- How long before breakage? (11+ / 0-)

    So many questions, so little time and so many thanks for coming.

    We see and here much about how the army is either disintegrating or broken not only at the troop level but we also hear about the sad state of the equipment and the massive amount of fund required to bring what we have back into working order much less ordering new vehicles in mass quantities.

    If true, how long do you estimate  this "surge" can be maintained?
    Are there short term fixes that the Pentagon can use if the Surge extends out past a break point?
    What happens if the place really blows; ie Turks attack up north, bombing of Iran etc.
    If this ends sometime soon, how long do you estimate it will take to bring the core of the Army and supporting forces back to where they were before we jumped into Iraq.
    I've also noted in previous posts and diaries here that the army seems enamored with sole source suppliers for critical troop protection gear which after research, I find many of these companies under-capitalized which inevitably leads to delays and substandard gear. In a four year war with apparently many more to go, why does the Army insist on this procurement policy when it would be advantageous to spread the work out.
    Contractors: In my mind, the high cost of contractors can only be justified if there is a very short term spike in activity. Stand by forces are expensive to maintain for activity that may last weeks or a few months. But here we are at Year 4+ and the use of contractors are going up? Their fees are rising just as fast as they are expanding to meet larger and larger contracts. They operate under no rule of law that I've seen. But we all know the Owners down to to the employees are making a boatload of money. It's not a far stretch to see that a Lowly CACI employee in IRAQ might make close to what your salary was prior to retirement.
    Why does this need to continue and if you were advising Democrats on the next round of funding what would you tell them in terms of oversight or any other matter that concerns their use in a war-zone including the Rule of Law?

    Thanks

    by Dburn on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 08:48:59 AM PDT

     Good questions (15+ / 0-)

    #1 We can't extend the current strategy and surge much longer. We need strategic focus.

    #2 The Pentagon is at the mercy of our failed national strategy. One thing we need for sure is a debate on national service. The Army alone is short 100,000 troops to meet requirements and the current recruiting system will fall short. This is one aspect of the mobilization that has yet to materialize.

    #3 It may blow and we have no strategic reserve.

    #4 It will take 8-10 months to redeploy the force and at least 10 years to rebuild it to where it was in 2002.

    #5 Good question - we need mobilization and competition is always good. I wonder why it takes three years to replace a helicopter destroyed in Iraq?

    #6 Contractors compensate for lack of military capacity. We can't have it both ways with a military that's too small.

    by Major General John Batiste on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 09:05:00 AM PDT

    Militarytracy's interpretation defund or your kids will be drafted next year stupid idiots

    Parent

    Yes (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 06:17:32 PM EST
    And they are already being cynically drafted with extended tours..... for no other reasons than to try to save Bush's political hide, and now also in a bad miscalculation by Democrats that funding Bush's attempt to save himself will help them politically.

    Parent
    Foreign Policy In Focus (none / 0) (#7)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 03:03:52 PM EST
    How the Peace Movement Can Win
    Lawrence S. Wittner | April 26, 2007
    One explanation for the weakness of the U.S. peace movement, often expressed by cynics about human nature, is that demagogues spouting patriotic propaganda easily hoodwink people.
    ...
    Another explanation, expressed by Green Party supporters and assorted leftists, is that the Democratic Party is a sort of reactionary vampire that schemes, successfully, to drain the blood of the peace movement and other progressive forces. First it seduces them, and then it abandons them--or so the argument goes.

    But this explanation begs the issue. After all, if the peace movement were strong enough, would the Democratic Party dare to abandon it?


    What the Peace Movement Should Do Now
    Robin Hahnel, Michael Foley, and Matt Meyer | June 6, 2007
    An overwhelming majority of the American public wants the war in Iraq ended and the troops brought home now. If anyone believed the Democrats in Congress were going to end the fiasco without massive pressure from the peace movement, that illusion just flew out the window with the Democrats acquiescing in funding the war without even any deadlines for withdrawal. Whether one thinks of it as making more Democratic lawmakers afraid to anger the peace movement, or showing sympathetic Democrats that the peace movement can cover their backs when Republicans try to pin the disaster on any who vote to cut off funding, is of little practical importance. The overwhelming antiwar sentiment that already exists must be mobilized.

    It has to be in the fall of 2007 because spring 2008 is too late. First, most Americans understand that every month that passes is more American and Iraqi lives lost for absolutely nothing. Second, the Democrats in Congress will face important choices in September, so that is when the pressure needs to be applied. And third, by spring 2008 too many supporters and activists in the peace movement will be drawn into primary campaigns. Unless we have made ourselves vocal and visible as an oppositional movement, the pressure to subordinate peace politics to the strategies of the candidates will be overwhelming.



    The question I have about the 'not funding' option (none / 0) (#8)
    by Geekesque on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 03:17:44 PM EST
    is this:

    How do they avoid a similar showdown such as they had with Bush this past go-round, wherein Bush successfully vetoed any partial funding?

    I understand in principle the notion that they should announce that they are funding the war through March 31, 2008.  My question is:  how do they provide the funding up until March 31, 2008?

    They don't ::avoid:: the showdown. (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 03:31:02 PM EST
    Thye embrace it.

    They walk right into the the ok corral and blow bush away:

    "Are you Mr. President, and Mr. Secretary, prepared to leave troops in Iraq without adequate supplies?"

    How do they provide the funding up until March 31, 2008?

    By passing a supplemental. And at the same time make it clear that it is the last one. After that Bush cannot veto a bill that is never introduced.

    Parent

    no showdowns since RayGun in '80 (5.00 / 1) (#48)
    by seabos84 on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 07:52:46 PM EST
    so let's keep folding?

    how about letting our fake 'leaders' know that they will be unemployed unless they finally

    FINALLY

    represent the REAL middle instead of the fake right wing middle?

    oh, and by the way - how come hundreds of congress critters AND hundreds of staffers AND how many millions can't come up with the messages to counter the fascists' lies?

    corrupting, incompetence, or a mix of both?

    there is NOT one of their g$$$$am excuses that doesn't sound like the SOS from ... the 90's? the 80's?

    rmm.

    Parent

    Yup (none / 0) (#9)
    by chemoelectric on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 03:18:04 PM EST
    It so happens that I believe the riskier political play for Democrats is NOT ending the war. But even if it did have negative electoral consequences, it would be worth it to end the war. For the good of the country.

    There is no war we can end, just a brutal, ineffective occupation in the midst of the occupied country's civil war, but the priorities here are as you say and it is important to say so. The last thing we need is to get in the habit of counting our political opportunities in numbers of bodies.

    A more acceptable Withdrawal Goal (none / 0) (#11)
    by MikeS on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:06:44 PM EST
    Setting an arbitrary date for withdrawal is politically unacceptable because it's 'arbitrary'.

    Instead why not withdraw the day after the last al Queda member is gone?

    This isn't even worth a reply. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:08:29 PM EST
    E (5.00 / 2) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:41:00 PM EST
    MikeS is making a point, that the "threat" Bush is harping on is Al Qaida.

    MikeS is solid guy who hates this war as muchas you or I.

    I think he does not think our thinking on this will work politically but you need not question his bona fides as anti-war.

    MikeS, hope you stay and comment more.

    Parent

    Well... maybe I misinterpreted. (none / 0) (#16)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:43:55 PM EST
    If so Mike has my apologies. His question has been answered and the implication refuted so many times I tend to run out of patience. I'm wrong as often as anyone else.

    Parent
    I've known Mike for years (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:48:20 PM EST
    I think I understand what he is trying to say.

    I do not agree with it in that what the American People want is the end of the Debacle.

    But he is a good guy.

    Parent

    I trust your judgement, you know that. (none / 0) (#19)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:51:35 PM EST
    I'll take your word for it.


    Parent
    MikeS a guy who hates this war (none / 0) (#20)
    by MikeS on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:58:41 PM EST
    Thanks Big.
    I like to think that I hate all wars, this one and the next one.

    Parent
    My apologies if I misunderstood you Mike (none / 0) (#21)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:01:38 PM EST
    Can you expand on what you meant?

    Parent
    But I thought ... (none / 0) (#13)
    by MikeS on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:34:10 PM EST
    I thought we were at war with al Qaeda.
    Did we lose that war too?

    Parent
    You are. (none / 0) (#15)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:41:27 PM EST
    Bush has teamed up with them for years. They were not in Iraq before 2003. And as soon as you're out of the way and not taking up their energy to drive you out, the Iraqis will slit all of al-Qaeda's throats. Probably in one day.

    Would you like another drink?:

    So, Osama Walks into This Bar, See? and Bush says, "Whad'l'ya have, pardner?" and Osama says, "Well, George, what are you serving today?" and Bush says, "Fear," and Osama shouts, "Fear for everybody!" and George pours it on for the crowd. Then the presidential bartender says, "Hey, who's buying?" and Osama points a thumb at the crowd sucking down their brew. "They are," he says. And the two of them share a quiet laugh.


    Parent
    Because thanks to us Al Queda is (none / 0) (#62)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 11:08:18 PM EST
    a franchise name that people who hate us for murdering their children adopt at the drop of a hat of a detained for no reason wearing a black hood relative.  I know you are baiting me but I'll play.  If we stop creating Al Queda in Iraq then we don't have to kill Al Queda in Iraq.  We could then even find some time and money on our hands and we could watch out for the really crazy bustas who want to kill us without much provacation....it is a crazy concept I know but I'm just a crazy girl.

    Parent
    Iraqis and al-Qaeda (none / 0) (#18)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 04:50:11 PM EST
    This one short article should make clear what will happen to al-Qaeda in Iraq once the Iraqis are able to turn their attention to them.

    The Iraqis Have A Word: "Sahel"

    PERHAPS no fact is more revealing about Iraq's history than this: The Iraqis have a word that means to utterly defeat and humiliate someone by dragging his corpse through the streets.

    The word is "sahel," and it helps explain much of what I have seen in three and a half years of covering the war.
    ...
    Listen to Iraqis engaged in the fight, and you realize they are far from exhausted by the war. Many say this is only the beginning.
    ...

    "No country in the world is fighting such terrorism," said Adel Abdul Mehdi, an Iraqi vice president and leader in the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council, a powerful Shiite party, on the day he made his pilgrimage. "Every time we give more martyrs, we are more determined. This is a big battle, there is no such battle in the world."

    The Shiites have waited centuries for their moment on the throne, and the war is something they are willing to tolerate as the price for taking power, said the Iraqi leader who had invited me to dinner in the Green Zone. "The Shia say this is not exceptional for them, this is normal," he said.



    al-Qaeda is doomed in Iraq (none / 0) (#22)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 05:07:17 PM EST
    The only thing saving al-Qaeda in Iraq is George W. Bush's occupation:
    "After the execution of President Saddam, now the Baath Party and all resistance groups reject any negotiations with the United States," said the former army brigadier general.

    Mudafar al-Amin, who was Iraq's ambassador to Britain from 1999 until the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003, said most insurgent leaders are willing to negotiate. "Look at the Lebanese civil war, look at Angola. They each fought for 20 years, and finally they had to talk and find a reasonable solution to take their countries out of the ruins," said al-Amin, who lives in Jordan. "The situation now is to nobody's benefit. The country has been made into hell."
    ...

    Al-Mutlak's allies say that rather than unleashing a worsened civil war, a U.S. troop withdrawal would have a calming effect.

    "If there is a timetable for the U.S. troops to get out, if a real Iraqi government has authority to make decisions, it can reach an understanding with the groups in the Mahdi Army to solve the situation, to stop the violence, and also with the insurgent groups," said Jawad al-Khalisi, a Shiite ayatollah and seminary leader in Baghdad who has tried to reconcile the radicals under a nationalist, pro-withdrawal banner. "The Iraqi people will get rid of the extremist powers from both sides. We won't allow them to continue their violent and terrorist acts."

    Link

    Parent
    You are for reid/feingold (none / 0) (#30)
    by Stewieeeee on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 06:14:49 PM EST
    Or you are with..... the president.


    You're with (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 06:18:48 PM EST
    ending the debacle and saving lives, or you're not.

    Parent
    A top ten list of false choices (none / 0) (#33)
    by Stewieeeee on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 06:21:21 PM EST
    "you are either with us or you are with the terrorists" still tops the list in my opinion.

    Parent
    Yes I know that, stewie. (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 06:23:05 PM EST
    You'll have to play by yourself from here on today.

    Parent
    as far as false choices are concerned (1.00 / 3) (#36)
    by Stewieeeee on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 06:24:50 PM EST
    republicans are still the supreme craftsmen thereof.


    Parent
    snark or troll? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 08:48:17 PM EST
    You are for reid/feingold (none / 0) (#30)
    by Stewieeeee on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 06:14:49 PM EST
    Or you are with..... the president.

    Parent
    btw (none / 0) (#34)
    by Stewieeeee on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 06:22:56 PM EST
    i found a general who supports using the power of the purse.

    look up odom's op-ed in wapo from feb.

    Parent

    Link? (none / 0) (#63)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jun 18, 2007 at 11:15:08 PM EST
    How about that drafty Batiste today?  I already told you that you don't know everything a purse can do and some teenagers Grandma might hit you upside the head with one next year if you don't wise up soon.  In fact, I advise avoiding the Raging Grannies at all cost if you find you are unable to change thought course.

    Parent