home

On The Relevance of The Presidential Campaign Now

Kos writes:

Being a blogger has been on-the-job training for me. I was obsessive about the presidential polls in 2003. Then, as you see above, they meant squat. Kerry had 9 percent heading into Iowa. He won the thing easily. I learned my lesson. These months are an opportunity for candidates to raise money, build organization, hone their message, and prep for the storm that'll hit them in September when they'll enter the stretch run of the race. At this point, the numbers mean little, and candidates have little incentive to lead the horse race.

You are correct sir. With a caveat. At Blogometer, Conn Carroll commented:

After noting that "current national polling of presidential preferences for 2008" show Hillary Clinton will likely be the nominee, Talk Left's Big Tent Democrat blogs: "Horserace blogging on the Presidential election may be fun, but it is completely nonserious and not based on anything. And it will continue to be so until about a couple of months before the Iowa caucuses." . . . Reading these posts (and many others), it appears that many in the netroots have resigned themselves to a Clinton presidency despite a clear understanding in the community that she does not share their policy position on Iraq. While they berate Dems in Congress While they berate Dems in Congress for not doing more to end the war, are the netroots doing enough to make sure the next WH occupant will? If now isn't the time to use netroots power to push an HRC alternative, when is? If the netroots waits til IA for a U.S. out-of-Iraq candidate to emerge, they just might have to wait til '12 before they have a real chance to affect policy again.

The time is now and, as I try to express on occasion, my only focus with regard to the Presidential race is how it can effect today's Iraq debate. I believe oin using the Presidential race to move issues now. As anyone can tell, the issue uppermost in my mind is Iraq.

So the relevance of the current goings on in the Presidential race relate not much to the horserace, but a whole lot on the issues, particularly Iraq.

< Who Is Digby? | Missing Emails and Casual Compliance With the Law >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Interesting Statements (none / 0) (#1)
    by talex on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 03:57:44 PM EST
    While they berate Dems in Congress for not doing more to end the war, are the netroots doing enough to make sure the next WH occupant will?

    Just what can the netroots really do to affect who is the nominee besides vote? And at that we are a small fraction of the vote.

    John Edward's leads the Straw Poll at dkos which I think is pretty representative of the netroots as a whole. But he only carried 39% in the last poll. Obama carried 24%. So total between the two they carry 63%. I'm sure as time moves on they will carry and split all but the 6% that Clinton has.

    Which brings me to the point I have made over and over at dkos. If the netroots can do anything for their candidate to win then they must pick between either Obama or Edwards. Because if they don't then the netroots vote is split in the primaries and Clinton runs away with it. The only chance the netroots has is to consolidate their vote behind one or the other. Will that happen? Probably not because most netrooters are not sharp enough to figure out that is what they have to do - even when it is explained to them. As I said the netroots represents a small fraction of the Dem vote. so the only way to have an impact is through the consolidation of our vote.

    Howard Dean is a good example. He practically had the entire netroots vote - but still lost. So this cycle electing a netroots candidate is even going to be tougher with two netroots candidates. Yes one or both (Edwards & Obama) will get non-netroots votes. But so did Dean. The fact is that we are a minority vote in the Party. With one candidate we stand a chance. With two candidates we drastically reduce our chances.

    So the relevance of the current goings on in the Presidential race relate not much to the horse race, but a whole lot on the issues, particularly Iraq.

    Well it is good to see Armando come around to what I said weeks ago. This race is about more than Iraq and does include a whole lot of issues. He disagreed with that before. But given that the candidates are pretty close on their Iraq policies and that Clinton has done a good job of 'blurring' the minor differences the other issues have become more important.

    And in addition to the other issues what is as important in the minds of the voters, if not more important, is the quality of leadership and experience. And so far Clinton is blowing away both Edwards and Obama in that department. Take Edwards for example. His Iraq rhetoric in this race to get out of Iraq is the most aggressive of all three. But yet he is running a distant third in all but the Iowa poll. Same for Obama - he is behind also. Why? When asked in polls who they think has the most experience and leadership qualities Clinton's lead in those departments are even greater than her overall lead which shows that it is those qualities that are for the most part giving her her lead. Can either Obama or Edwards make that gap up on experience and leadership in the eyes of the non-netroots public? Put it this way - I wouldn't put money on it.

    Any one who discounts the national polls this election cycle with over half of the primaries taking place in a matter of a month is not paying attention to the very different dynamics at work because of those compressed primaries.

    That is one thing Kos did not take into consideration in his post today. Nor dd he consider other factors in coming up with his theory. His theory was wrong. And people that take his word as gospel are obviously less informed than he is.

    Generally I would ingore you (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 04:08:42 PM EST
    but I need to point this out to you:

    So the relevance of the current goings on in the Presidential race relate not much to the horse race, but a whole lot on the issues, particularly Iraq.

    Well it is good to see Armando come around to what I said weeks ago. This race is about more than Iraq and does include a whole lot of issues.

    I wrote that what is going on now in the campaign is not very relevant to the horserace. Obviously you do not read very well.

    Parent

    Yeah (none / 0) (#4)
    by talex on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 04:54:52 PM EST
    My response was correct. You said it's relevance was "a whole lot on the issues, particularly Iraq".

    I didn't disagree. I just pointed out that you said it was about "issues" (plural) which includes other "issues" in addition to Iraq. That is what you said. Or can't you read what you wrote:

    but a whole lot on the issues, particularly Iraq.

    See - "particularly". which means that you were highlighting Iraq over the other issues. But the other issues were still mentioned by you.

    Generally I would ignore you

    Yeah I can tell. That is why you took the time to read one of my posts over at dkos and then copy and paste it here. That's ignoring me. Heh.

    In the meantime you want to use the Presidential race to push your issues and the candidates themselves want to use their time to win the race which doesn't necessarily equate to pushing the same issues you want to push.

    So just how do you propose to use the Presidential race to push your issues? Once again you lay out a goal of yours but you neglect to say how it would be accomplished. If you want readers to adopt your goal it might be helpful if you told them how it can be accomplished. What tactics and methods are you proposing to use to "effect today's Iraq debate" via the Presidential race?

    I mean you say "The time is now" in response to Conn Carroll's post. And you say:

    my only focus with regard to the Presidential race is how it can effect today's Iraq debate. I believe oin using the Presidential race to move issues now. As anyone can tell, the issue uppermost in my mind is Iraq.

    But yet you don't say how to go about having an effect on Iraq using the Presidential race or as you say "move issues now". So what do you suggest? What are readers supposed to do now?

    Or is this a little like advocating a date certain when there will be no more funding but you don't have a plan on how to get the congress to do that?

    Just wondering. I think moving issues now using the Presidential Race is a great idea in theory. But after giving it a little thought I'm not sure how to do that. Given that you wrote about it first - got any suggestions?

    Parent

    Heh (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 05:04:42 PM EST
    Believe it or not, when I started reading the thread, I had no idea you had commented in it.

    It was a shockingly stupid comment and brought to light some issues we have all had with you here.

    BTW, you still do not understand my post.

    But who cares if you do? You're right. I will ignore you now.

    Only 2 more comments to go today.

    Parent

    Ah! (none / 0) (#10)
    by talex on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 05:53:00 PM EST
    Just as I thought. You have no plan to bring an effect to today's Iraq debate using the Presidential race. None. Was it just blowing hot air or just filling space on the blog with meaningless babble?

    Man if you are going to come up with such bold ideas you should at least have a plan to accomplish it. But No. Zip. Nada. All hat no cattle. The barn is empty. You are a piece of work.

    Kind of like yesterday when you wouldn't answer if you supported a veto proof majority if nothing else happened to end the war. That's because you don't. There is nothing less that you would like to see than a veto proof majority. After all you have pooh-poohed all over the idea so it would be better to leave people dying than have something you pooh-poohed come to pass. Sad.

    And you say you want to end the war! What a joke. Any rational person reading can see that you only want to end it on your terms. How selfish.

    BTW, you still do not understand my post.

    Oh I understand it fully and you know it. You wrote what you wrote. It's easy to understand. You know there are other issues at play in the primaries besides Iraq and you have no real plan for using the Presidential race to "move issues now". That about sums it up.

    Only 2 more comments to go today.

    Ha ha!  Way to go Armando Bush. The only thing you have is suppressing free speech - suppressing votes, er, posts, and trying to surround yourself with only those who agree with you!

    Ha Ha Ha! How ironic. You say you hate Bush but you act and use the same tactics as him. Exactly like him! Suppression. That is what you are about. How Democratic.

    Heil!

    Parent

    One more to go (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:00:15 PM EST
    As usual you either are not smart enough to absorb my point are speak falsely of it.

    This in particular belies everything I have ever said on the subject:

    Just as I thought. You have no plan to bring an effect to today's Iraq debate using the Presidential race. None. Was it just blowing hot air or just filling space on the blog with meaningless babble?

    Man you are stupid.

    Your last comment coming up thank God.

    Parent

    So, (none / 0) (#13)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 07:03:34 PM EST
    Kind of like yesterday when you wouldn't answer if you supported a veto proof majority
    One more stupid question for the day?

    Parent
    heh (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 07:17:31 PM EST
    Yes I strongly OPPOSE a veto proof majority.

    What a moron.

    Parent

    BTD: Closet Republican. Tonight at 11! n/t (none / 0) (#15)
    by andgarden on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 07:31:53 PM EST
    When you start with a wrong assumption (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Sailor on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 04:30:16 PM EST
    Just what can the netroots really do to affect who is the nominee besides vote? And at that we are a small fraction of the vote.
    Your original premise is wrong. Millions of dollars were raised by a lot of small and large blogs and by a $hitload of folks who knocked on doors and supported candidates that the DLC had ignored. Those candidates won.

    The reason that Dems have a majority in the house and senate is due to that money and a groudswell of public opinion saying 'bushco is running the country into the ground, what can I do?' And then they read a blog or listened to a guy who knocked on their door.

    we are a small fraction of the vote
    p.s. What do you mean 'we?'  I personally don't care if I'm a 'small fraction' because I will always say, do and vote my conscience. As it turns out I'm part of 70% of America.

    Parent
    What does "you are correct sir" mean? (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 05:15:59 PM EST
    (1) You agree with the paragraph quoted; and/or
    (2) You agree Hillary Clinton will not win the Democratic presidential nomination?

    1 (none / 0) (#7)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 05:24:09 PM EST
    Kos did not say anywhere I saw that he was predicting Hillary would lose.

    Parent
    I took Kos theory to be how Obama COULD win (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 05:26:21 PM EST
    BTW, as I read it more carefully, I think he is wrong. Obama has to win in New Hampshire imo and finsih second in Iowa.

    Parent
    Second full paragraph. (none / 0) (#9)
    by oculus on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 05:28:11 PM EST
    It does seem to be having a positive effect (none / 0) (#12)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jun 19, 2007 at 06:59:57 PM EST
    on Hillary's willingness to commit to getting out of Iraq sooner rather than later. Maybe it's reading too much into what she says here, but sure seems she's back-pedaling on her earlier indications not to expect her to get the troops out until near the end of her second term. Although it's true she's just specifying combat troops here:

    Six months into a Hillary Clinton administration, about how many U.S. military personnel do you envision being in Iraq to handle what you've referred to in the past as "vital national security interests" -- from helping the Kurds to preventing Iran from crossing the border?

    I cannot give you a figure because I will not become president until January 2009 and there is no way to predict what will occur between now and then. I have said repeatedly that I am committed to taking our combat troops out of the midst of this sectarian civil war. And there may well be vital national security interests that require a continuing presence, although I do not support permanent bases or a permanent occupation. When I'm elected -- and between the time that I am elected and the time I become president -- I will focus to a great extent (and nearly to the exclusion of a lot of other important matters) on being ready to make those decisions once I become president.

    But it is just impossible to make any kind of credible predictions at this point. I am still hoping that the president will decide to follow the Iraq Study Group's recommendations and begin to alter the makeup and mission of our force before he leaves office. I think it is his responsibility to do that. So that's my principal emphasis during this time -- to try to persuade or require him to take the steps that I would have to do initially if he has not...

    We would certainly like to begin withdrawing troops as soon as we can. It is complicated and dangerous to withdraw troops. That's one of the reasons why a few weeks ago I wrote to Secretary [of Defense] Gates asking that he ensure that there is a serious planning process under way right now -- not just the usual contingency plans on the shelf, but operational planning -- to begin to be prepared to withdraw troops.

    Indicating her first order of business and top priority is an operational plan to withdraw them. If this is actually what she's committing to (though of course she gives herself outs right and left re "what happens on the ground"), voting for her won't be so painful come Nov 08 if she's The One (as I think she will be).