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Poking The Right With Castro

Kevin Drum makes a great point about Michael Moore:

It's true that I wish Michael Moore were a wee bit more scrupulous with the facts in his films, but I sometimes wonder if he doesn't insert random distortions into his movies deliberately. . . . [T]he end result is the kind of publicity money can't buy, and it's the sweetest kind of publicity of all: the kind that's subsidized by his enemies, who helpfully boost ticket sales by furiously denouncing his films for weeks on end. . . . Which, of course, explains why he shot part of SiCKO in Cuba. Sweden or Canada would have worked just as well, but probably no other country in the world could have produced the kind of howling denunciations from the National Review set that Cuba has produced. . . .

That makes total sense.

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    Cuba was the inspiration (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:03:42 PM EST
    for the film Sicko

    according to Moore Monday on Democracy Now!

    MICHAEL MOORE: Well, I actually -- I had a TV show on back in the '90s called TV Nation, and one day I just -- I thought it would be interesting to have like a race. So we sent a camera crew to an emergency room in Fort Lauderdale, a camera crew to an emergency room in Toronto, and then one to Havana. And they would each wait until someone came in with a broken arm or a broken leg. And then they were going to follow that person through and see how good the quality of the care was, how fast it was and how cheap it was. And I convinced Bob Costas and Ahmad Rashad, sportscasters, to do the play-by-play of what we called the Healthcare Olympics. And so, it was a race between the US, Canada and Cuba. And to make a long story short, Cuba won. They had the fastest care, the best care, and it cost nothing.
    We turn the show in to NBC that week, and we get a call from the censor. They're not called "the censor," they're called Standards & Practices. And so, this woman calls. She's the head of Standards & Practices -- Dr. Somebody. I don't know they -- she actually had a "Dr." before her name, but I forget her last name now. But she calls, and she says, "Mike, Cuba can't win." I said, "What?" "Cuba can't win." "Well, they won. What do you mean they can't win? They won." "No, we can't say that on NBC. We can't say that Cuba won." "Well, yeah, but they won! They provided the fastest care. They were the cheapest. And the patient was happy, and the bone got fixed." "No, it's against regulations here." I said, "Oh, well, I'm not changing it."
    Well, they changed it. They changed it. Two days later, when it aired, they changed it so that Canada won. And Canada didn't win. Canada almost won, but they charged the guy $15 for some crutches on the way out. So it's bugged me to this day that anybody who saw that episode, you know, where it said, you know, "and Canada won the Healthcare Olympics," and in fact it was Cuba, but that couldn't be said on NBC, because God knows what would happen.


    A rather silly point (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:09:55 PM EST
    And part of the problem with the seriousness of Moore's argument.

    No serious person can claim Cuba has the best health care system.

    Parent

    have you seen the film yet? (none / 0) (#13)
    by conchita on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:18:45 PM EST
    i don't think he is claiming cuba has the best healthcare system - just that it is more humane and better than ours.  he looks at healthcare in the u.s., canada, england, cuba, and france.  the discrepancies he illustrates speak for themselves.

    Parent
    I haven't (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:21:39 PM EST
    I was reacting to the quote.

    Parent
    when you do i think it will become clearer why (none / 0) (#17)
    by conchita on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:24:26 PM EST
    he chose cuba.  and as you originally stated, i agree, it is partially because of the publicity.  he is a wily businessman.  

    Parent
    Depends (none / 0) (#16)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:24:11 PM EST
    how best is defined and who is labeling whom serious.

    For instance, you are a serious person who seriously thinks you can judge the seriousness of comments and posters making the claim of serious or not serious superfluous.

    Parent

    Of course (none / 0) (#19)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:33:50 PM EST
    You state the obvious on the question of opinions.

    BTW, do you think Cuba has the best health care system in the world?

    Parent

    Is that a serious question (none / 0) (#21)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:47:18 PM EST
    They won TVNations Healthcare Olympics, didn't they?

    In all seriousness, I would say that for the size of their GDP and population, if we define best as the most bang for the buck, then Cuba surely has a better healthcare system than our own and, using this definition of best, Cuba would be close to, if not, the best in the world while the US would be close to, if not, the worst in the world.

    Parent

    Bang for the buck? (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:56:35 PM EST
    Well, if you say so.

    You're entitled to your opinion.

    Parent

    Well, I never c,laimed (none / 0) (#27)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:02:12 PM EST
    my say is as big as the Big tent. all I have at my disposal from this location in Minnesota many hundreds of miles from cuba are some statistics on a nation that is on the third-world/developing level in terms of per-capita GDP and on a first world/developed level in many other standard of living indicators such as life expectancy, infant mortality and literacy.

    Now, my little tent mind, gives some credit for this discrepancy in standard of living indicators to Cuba's health care system and since they are an apparent aberration as far as statistical measures of the nations in the world my little tent opinion concludes that bang for the buck they have a pretty good system.

    But, I don't have that big tent perspective with the self confidence to determine differences between silly and serious, so even if I am entitled to my opinion, I still feel a little bit insignificant in the shadow of the Big Tent.

    Parent

    And well you should (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:27:40 PM EST
    My Gawd victimhood suits you so very well.

    No wonder you like Castro so.

    [Peaches: Oh no I don't! You're putting words in my mouth!]

    There, I saved you the trouble of responding.

    Here's a serious response, how do you determine the bang for the buck? How much bucks have been spent? How much bang?

    What was Cuba's life expectancy and infant mortality (very related statistics BTW), and literacy (not really a health statistic BTW) ranking prior to this outstanding investment by the Cuban government?

    How much of that BANG comes from remittances and the sending of medicines by Cuban-Americans? Or is that part of the "bang for the buck" system you feel so good about?

    [Peaches: BTD is sooo mean to me!@ Why can;t he be civil? Like me.]

    Peaches, you are incredibly uncivil and support others who are uncivil.

    Parent

    Well,. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:31:16 PM EST
    That is your opinion, silly as it is.

    I'm just trying to be serious, I din't know we were talking about civil.

    Parent

    Peaches (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:33:49 PM EST
    Your hostility comes through in every comment.

    Very uncivil of you.

    but the funniest is your attempt to pretend you were not deliberately projecting it.

    I see no substance in your most recent comment so I take it the pretend substance portion of our exchange is now over.

    Parent

    It was over, (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:36:06 PM EST
    before it started. My intention was not to have a discussion with you. It was as you rightly guessed, to be uncivil and mock you.

    I'd apologize, but that would be civil.

    Parent

    The whining is what comes through (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:41:53 PM EST
    The mocking is, well, in my opinion, weak.

    Parent
    Well, (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:49:50 PM EST
    You're the Big tent.

    All I can do is whine. You get to decide what is silly and serious and now what is weak, too.

    I can say this, its easy to bring out the silliness in you. Just Dare to mock the BIG tent.

    Parent

    Dare to whine (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:52:06 PM EST
    you mean.

    Parent
    Oh, Sorry (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:53:51 PM EST
    Dare to mock the BIG tent in a whinney voice, I mean.

    Parent
    Did anyone, (none / 0) (#23)
    by jondee on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 01:10:20 PM EST
    at anytime, claim Cuba "has the best healthcare system in the world"? Just to save you the trouble, I dont think Moore or anyone on the thread believes 9/11 was an inside job either.

    Parent
    The parent comment in this thread (none / 0) (#25)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 01:14:29 PM EST
    provides a quote from Moore on his supposed inspiration for using Cuba in the film SICKO.

    Parent
    Which means what? (none / 0) (#29)
    by LarryE on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:21:07 PM EST
    a quote from Moore on his supposed inspiration

    "Supposed?" An odd word choice. Are you suggesting that experience wasn't his inspiration? Or that's he's being untruthful about the earlier episode? If not, what's with "supposed?"

    What Moore is asserting is that Cuba won a "Health Care Olympics" segment on his old TV show, which, apparently, it did, with Canada a close second. (I remember that segment and can confirm that in the segment as broadcast, Canada won. In either case, the US was a distant third. Which was the point.)

    Turning that into the assertion that he was or is claiming that Cuba has "the best health care system in the world" is preposterous.

    Parent

    Is it? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:29:20 PM EST
    Then why was Cuba chosen as the counterpoint in Moore's movie?

    Let's see . . . you made my point.

    In other words, read the post AGAIN.

    Parent

    You've got to be joking (none / 0) (#44)
    by LarryE on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 03:01:28 PM EST
    This "you made my point" line of which you've grown so fond is a sophomoric evasion. You sometimes remind me of he line from "Inherit the Wind" about the man who could "strut sitting down."

    As made clear in other comments to which you have already replied, it was apparently Guantanamo to which Moore went, not "Castro's Cuba." It seems you should read those comments AGAIN.

    What is so bizarre about this is that in other comments you maintain the assertion that it's for marketing but here you insist without evidence that he's making a claim for Cuban superiority. It seems to me at this point that you're arguing either out of pure ego or just for the sake of arguing.

    Parent

    I would agree (none / 0) (#51)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:28:56 PM EST
    Is this true? Was it Guantanamo? I have not seen the film.

    Then the inspiration story makes no freaking sense.

    OR was it Gitmo that was in the HealthCare Olympics?

    Parent

    I think this story (none / 0) (#52)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:32:21 PM EST
    link points to you being wrong on this. But have you seen the movie?

    Parent
    BTW (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:33:21 PM EST
    I was NOT making the claim. I was refuting the claim.

    I was asking Peaches if he thought it.

    You have been way out of line in this thread.

    Parent

    ducking while i write this (none / 0) (#60)
    by conchita on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:54:06 PM EST
    but think clarification might help a little.  for the record, the film includes footage of both guantanamo and cuba proper.  there are two different points made:  1) at gitmo the government is providing better healthcare to its inmates than it is the populace of the u.s.; 2) cuba is providing cubans and americans better healthcare (both medical treatment and pharmaceuticals) than the u.s. and at minimal direct cost to the patient.  moore ties together multiple threads with the cuba segment of the film.  i think once you all see it, there will be less reason to argue.  my guess is then righteous anger will be directed at the u.s. government.

    Parent
    Actually... (none / 0) (#35)
    by LarryE on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:33:31 PM EST
    ...never mind "preposterous." Say rather that it's the kind of argument Jim would make.

    Parent
    Actually (none / 0) (#37)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:35:29 PM EST
    The best health care system of the 3 was what I meant but it seemed pointless to me to argue with you about that. It had nothing to do with my post.

    And ypu now act like Jim by avoiding the question - why then did Moore use Cuba?

    My post posits a theory. I think your arguments supported it. What say you?

    Parent

    Last on this (none / 0) (#45)
    by LarryE on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 03:08:15 PM EST
    best health care system of the 3 was what I meant

    But of course it's not what you said. Maybe your own comments are things you should read AGAIN.

    ypu now act like Jim by avoiding the question - why then did Moore use Cuba?

    That wasn't the question here, the question was your unfounded assertion about what Moore was saying. You seem now to have made a non-retraction retraction ("I meant something else"). I also questioned your use of the word "supposed," of course to no avail.

    My post posits a theory. I think your arguments supported it. What say you?

    Again, very Jim-like: Ignore questions, ignore the subject of the thread, and accuse others of being evasive.

    But what say I is that first, claiming that disputing a charge Moore is calling Cuba's health care system the best in the world supports the argument that he "inserts random distortions" for marketing purposes is manifestly absurd.

    Second and more important, what say I is that the fact that, as again other comments have noted, it was not Cuba proper where the film was shot, but Guantanamo, pretty much blows your theory apart.

    Parent

    Excuse me (none / 0) (#50)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:27:23 PM EST
    ""You now act like Jim by avoiding the question - why then did Moore use Cuba?"

    That wasn't the question here"

    Say what. I was the question.

    I made no assertion that Moore said it was the best ion the world. I asked Peaches if she thought that.

    Stop the BS LArry.

    This is mst Jim like of you. Taking the thread off the rails.

    This is obvious. Stop the BS.

    Parent

    You're not excused (none / 0) (#54)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:33:34 PM EST
    Your Comment #9

    You are so silly and ridiculous sometimes

    Parent

    Apparently (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:35:32 PM EST
    you did not understand it was directed at YOU, not Moore.

    Parent
    Please Explain (none / 0) (#58)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:37:35 PM EST
    And part of the problem with the seriousness of Moore's argument.

    You were replying to a quote I provided of Moore's. I had said nothing on the subject. You are so silly

    Parent

    That he was using Cuba purely (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:50:36 PM EST
    as an example of a superior health care system instead of as a provocation for the Right.

    Read the post again.

    Parent

    So..... (none / 0) (#68)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 09:05:04 AM EST
    You were addressing Moore and not Peaches in her little ol' puptent as you implied to LarryE.

    And you were wrong.

    Will you admit it?

    And is that a whine I detect in your voice from way up on high, there?

    Parent

    Here is my first comment Larry (none / 0) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:34:41 PM EST
    A rather silly point (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:09:55 PM EST

    And part of the problem with the seriousness of Moore's argument.
    No serious person can claim Cuba has the best health care system.

    Will you admit you are wrong now?

    Parent

    WIll You? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Peaches on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:36:14 PM EST
    As you would say, your comment proves Larrye's point.

    Parent
    Looks That Way (none / 0) (#18)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:25:39 PM EST
    No serious person can claim Cuba has the best health care system.

    Or, whether or not it is true no person can say that on TV in America. Cause it won't get by the censors.

    According to the The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health Cuba ranks 39th and the US ranks 37.

    and

    Latin America -- Cuba has the highest healthy life expectancy in the region, at 68.4 years, near U.S. levels.

    link

    Parent

    Consider Puerto Riuco life expectancy (none / 0) (#34)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:32:01 PM EST
    and when we discuss life expectancy consider taking out murders, which are not really reflective of the quality of health care.

    Parent
    Not sure of your point? (none / 0) (#49)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 04:03:06 PM EST
    A quick google shows PR life expectancy is 78. Which is higher than the US.

    My point was one of surprise to see that Cuba ranked so high and the US ranked so low. The stats seem very close which is surprising. Also apart from the art/drama/power aspect of the Cuba stunt in Moore's film, the comparison seems apt based on these stats.

    What would the life expectancy rate be w/o murder? Still comparable or skewed?  

    Parent

    Old Link (none / 0) (#40)
    by Randinho on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:42:01 PM EST
    Squeaky, your link is from 2000. The most recent info (which you can find here) has the US, Cuba and Costa Rica even in this regard.

    Parent
    Thanks Randinho (none / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 03:50:25 PM EST
    Looks like things are improving over there. It would be horribly ironic (and unlikely), to say the least, if poor Cuba developed cures for diseases through stem cell research, before we even start on it.

    With the current bunch running the show most of america is headed to the dark ages.

    Parent

    I would love it (none / 0) (#63)
    by Wile ECoyote on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 06:27:51 PM EST
    for any country to lead the way in health care reasearch.  It will not be Cuba though.  Like capitalism or not, money is a great incentive to go out and research, start bio-tech compaines, etc.  

    Parent
    There is a lot of foreign capital in Cuba--just (none / 0) (#70)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 01:37:56 PM EST
    not from the U.S.  

    Parent
    And Moore is now refuting rumors (none / 0) (#1)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 11:42:19 AM EST
    he did actually meet with the head of GM.  What next.  

    Not a great point (none / 0) (#2)
    by karelrocha on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 11:47:34 AM EST
    Kevin Drum's assertion that Michael Moore's SICKO would have worked just as well if the Cuba part was filmed in Sweden or Canada is way off the mark.

    As Moore mentioned yesterday on the radio, the point he was trying to make was that the US government is spending all kinds of money to treat the prisoners (alleged terrorists) in Guantanamo and not extending the same kind of free treatment for its own citizens in the US.

    Filming a scene in Sweden or Canada surely would have shown that those countries have great health care systems but would not have been able to make the point that Moore was trying to make (i.e. that the US government is completely hypocritical)

    Also, just in case people don't know enough about the Cuba scene, Moore clarifies that he did not go to Castro's Cuba for the film's scenes but to Guantanamo.

    I agree (none / 0) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 11:50:47 AM EST
    that if that was the point Moore is trying to make it is not a good point at all.

    To compare incarcerated person with free citizens and what the oblogations of the government is to each is not a point at all.

    Indeed, I would say it is a very poor pretext for going to Cuba.

    To make that point, he could have gone to any federal prison in the US.

    Parent

    true, but i wonder how many prisons in the u.s. (none / 0) (#5)
    by conchita on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:02:51 PM EST
    would have brand spanking new facilities that look like they have never been used.  and i mean sparkling new.  of course, my mind went to other places - wondering what horrors could also be accomplished in those rooms.


    Parent
    The newest ones (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:10:46 PM EST
    yeah, the ones that haliburton just built (none / 0) (#11)
    by conchita on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:14:25 PM EST
    i forgot about those.

    i find myself wondering how he would get access to them and how he got access to guantanamo.  must have bought the footage.

    Parent

    Moore is incredibly resourceful (none / 0) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:16:51 PM EST
    and an incredible filmmaker.

    F911 was brilliant. As was Roger and Me. I also liked the Columbine film.

    He is terrific. And smart. And knows how to sell his films.

    Parent

    just a small thing but can't help myself (none / 0) (#15)
    by conchita on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:21:58 PM EST
    michael moore is a brilliant and creative man, yes, but it is his producers who are resourceful.  he has the ideas, they make it happen.

    Parent
    Not a small thing at all (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:35:01 PM EST
    kevin drum is spot on (none / 0) (#4)
    by conchita on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 11:57:51 AM EST
    i saw the film on sunday and, while i have had my painful moments with him when producing a music video he directed, i applaud michael moore for this effort.  i believe it is the most important film this country will see this year.  as with f911 he is using it as a vehicle to rouse the slumbering masses.  it is my fervent hope that he succeeds.

    however, back to your point.  the cuban trip is probably very much publicity driven, but it also worked very well in the edit.  for example, how much more poetic to see three fishing boats head off to gitmo than to watch people board a plane to europe?  besides he also visits canada, london, and paris.  i  took exception to how he characterized the detainees at gitmo as the most dangerous of the dangerous as it is becoming increasingly clear how many men we have unjustly incarcerated, but i do understand his premise of revealing the hypocrisy and injustice within the american government and health system.  the cuba scenes were actually very moving and gave him a great way to tie together different stories in the film and make a final statement.  moore is not an easy man to work with, but he has created an crucial film/tool which reveals exactly how low this country has fallen and what dire straits we are in.

    when asked during the q&a why he thought the insurance companies have not yet retaliated, he said that they probably aren't worried that on friday nights you won't hear many couples say "honey, let's go see that healthcare documentary."  i hope everyone here proves them wrong and sees it when it opens this weekend.  it was also interesting to hear him say that one of the weinsteins is fighting to have it open in twice as many theatres as f911, so something tells me they know they have a significant and box office worthy film on their hands.

    You left out this quote: (none / 0) (#7)
    by Lora on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:05:35 PM EST
    From the linked article by Kevin Drum:

    With SiCKO, though, I'm willing to bet Moore mostly sticks to the facts.


    It wasn't relevant to my point (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 12:08:19 PM EST
    Omitting it leaves the impression (none / 0) (#47)
    by Lora on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 03:34:59 PM EST
    ...that Drum felt Moore was playing a bit fast and loose with his facts in Sicko, when actually he felt that Moore was probably not doing that.

    Parent
    Costa Rica (none / 0) (#24)
    by Randinho on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 01:13:25 PM EST
    Costa Rica has an excellent health care system and it's human rights record is so good that it doesn't even appear on AI's Annual Report.

    Kevin's right, this is primarily to goose the right. If Moore wanted to showcase a health care to compare to the US, he could have also chosen Costa Rica's.

    Yep (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 01:14:52 PM EST
    Moore's point besides making money (none / 0) (#28)
    by pioneer111 on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:06:46 PM EST
    is to have a lot of people think about the issue.  Unless you make it controversial not as many would see it.  Cuba was the perfect choice for many reasons.  And this issue needs people's attention, health care needs to be fixed.  Michael Moore is doing a public service as well as making money.

    Great capitalist approach.  The RW should be pleased but I doubt it.

    Parent

    So you agree with my post (none / 0) (#32)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 02:29:48 PM EST
    really? do tell! (none / 0) (#46)
    by cpinva on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 03:08:43 PM EST
    It's true that I wish Michael Moore were a wee bit more scrupulous with the facts in his films,

    it's true i wish pundits were a bit more scrupulous with their comments, especially when they fail to provide evidentiary support for said claims. but now i'm just being nit picky.

    i hear and read this assertion constantly, about mr. moore's productions. however, just as constantly, not one shred of supporting evidence is ever actually provided by the commentator. why do you suppose that might be, he asked?

    how about this? the republican party, and right-wing media, have been drumming this supposed truth into our heads since "roger and me". it has now become accepted wisdom that mr. moore prevaricates in his documentaries, even in the absence of any actual proof to that effect.

    this explains why even purportedly "liberal" pundits start their commentaries with half-baked assertions, that have never been proved. these same "liberal" pundits still wish that al gore had never claimed to have invented the internet, even though he never did.

    Jeez (none / 0) (#62)
    by Repack Rider on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 06:25:09 PM EST
    What if the Bush administration was held to the same standard of truthfulness that Mr. Moore is being held to?

    You would think that Moore lied about something that got somebody killed or cost a few billion dollars or got a freeway interchange built near his commercial property.  

    We're talking about Moore on this blog and he's making lots of money.  Whatever he's doing, it's working for him very well and he makes his money the old fashioned way, by being very smart and creative and working hard.  I applaud him for that.  

    I notice that everyone who says he is casual with truth does so without providing an example.  To me it seems arrogant to criticize a man who got rich making films about uncomfortable subjects and forcing the public discourse to address his questions.

    Parent

    i don't disagree that moore played a bit (none / 0) (#64)
    by conchita on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 07:25:36 PM EST
    loose with the truth in his earlier films, but this one and f911 i don't think he is taking any chances.

    the screening i saw was for an audience composed of film production professionals and an interesting thing he shared in that context that might not be discussed with other audiences was how deeply entrenched the insurance industry is in the media. there is an insurance coverage every film has to have called "e&o" - errors and ommissions - in order for a theatre to be willing to show the film. for sicko they could not get an insurance company to give them e&o coverage until they finally found a democratic owner of an insurance company in ohio who was willing to do it. however, given the topic of the film there was concern about the future viability of the insurance company and they had to pay $750,000 in premiums. to give a sense of what that means, the e&o premiums on f911 were something around $14,000.  

    during this discusion moore also shared that he has only been sued once for about $6250 by "the brother of the oklahoma city bomber" for maligning the family name.

    Parent

    Very telling..... (none / 0) (#69)
    by kdog on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 09:53:28 AM EST
    but not surprising.  I worked in insurance for a short time....a dirty filthy shady business.

    Parent
    I wonder if the Cuban government (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 05:32:40 PM EST
    permitted Moore and his group to select which medical facilities they visited in the non-Gitmo portion of Cuba and whether Moore could freely interview whomever he chose in Cuba.  I doubt it.  The guidebooks still incourage tourists to bring non-prescription medicines to Cuba to be distributed to Cubans who cannot obtain them through their government health care system.

    The reason I wonder is that, although reports are that their is full employement in Cuba, in fact, many, many people of working age are standing about on work days during work hours.

    I also wonder if the reported statistics on life expectancy and literacy rates are accurate.  

    Oculus, (none / 0) (#66)
    by diogenes on Wed Jun 20, 2007 at 09:01:03 PM EST
    Oh Oculus, you are slipping into the cynical school here about Cuba.  Good for you.

    I figure BTD has better information than any (none / 0) (#67)
    by oculus on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 01:21:34 AM EST
    of us, but he's not biting.

    Parent
    Big Tent Democrat (none / 0) (#71)
    by Ambiorix on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 05:31:19 PM EST
    I just removed talkleft form my Favorites of my browser because of your sick views on Cuba. Really.