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Iraq Update

Soldiers, their families, their friends, and their country continue to pay a heavy price for the Bush administration's intransigent refusal to change course in Iraq:

Fourteen American soldiers were killed in five separate incidents over the last 48 hours, most of them in Baghdad, including a roadside explosion in the capital that killed five soldiers and four Iraqis, the American military said today.

< On Iraq: Carl Levin's Cynical And Misleading Invocation of Abraham Lincoln | On Iraq: The Democratic Congress Appears Prepared To Abdicate Its Constitutional Responsibilities >
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    3,545 (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 02:33:55 PM EST


    Lets Implement Nonpartisan Iraq Study Group (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by john horse on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 06:08:32 AM EST
    Its time we started implementing the conclusions of the nonpartisan Iraq Study Group and start significantly pulling back our troops.  What the surge has accomplished is a surge in casualties.

    Truman (1.00 / 2) (#1)
    by HeadScratcher on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 02:10:46 PM EST
    One thing I admire about President Truman is that when he was faced with either losing thousands of our own in an invasion of Japan or killing thousands of Japanese - he protected his own in order to stop the war.

    One thing I don't admire about President Johnson is that when faced with the same scenario in Vietnam he chose to neither option.

    The message is simple - either fight to win or don't fight.

    No way (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 03:09:07 PM EST
    You didn't just say that WWII=Vietnam=Iraq did you?  My husband is a stupid soldier and even he knows there is a huge difference.  This NCO that I despise anymore because he is a GIANT WINGNUT  but got his orders cancelled to start recruiting cuz it is too hard and now he has orders for Iraq, came over here last night whining to my husband wanting my husband to help him somehow get TDY orders. Americans are just lazy he told my husband and don't believe in fighting for their country anymore, they should all be ashamed because in WWII everybody sacrificed.  This guy is trying to get out of his orders to go to Iraq now by saying that those orders are destroying his marriage more than his recruiting orders were.  It's hysterically funny.  He's a huge psycho wingnut from h*ll.  My husband had the most incredulous look on his face.  He told that whackjob, "Iraq didn't do anything to us, they didn't do anything to anybody, a bunch of people lied to put us there and nobody wants to go die in Iraq for a bunch of lies.  Who in their right mind would want to go do that?"

    Parent
    uh, what? (none / 0) (#10)
    by HeadScratcher on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 03:40:39 PM EST
    I didn't equate any war with another. What I said was that you either fight to win or you don't fight at all. I don't care if it's World War I or a skirmish on a playground. Any cop or thief will tell you not to point a gun unless you're prepared to shoot.

    One of my problems with the Iraq war is that we're putting our men and women in harm's way without giving them adequate protection. If you can't do that, then don't fight. Period.

    Let's say there was a war in which the cause was noble (WWII), you wouldn't put our men and women in battle without giving them every tool to win. If you can't do that, then don't fight.

    Parent

    Both your examples... (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 03:48:02 PM EST
    are bifurcations anyway, and moot.

    Parent
    Wow desertswine (none / 0) (#13)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:00:37 PM EST
    Bifurcations.  I swear I know what moot means even though it is sort of a lawyerish term, and  I do fairly well on the Readers Digest Quiz but I'm going to have to look that one up today and use it five times in a sentence ;)

    Parent
    I'm sorry... (5.00 / 1) (#14)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:02:20 PM EST
    I just looked it up (none / 0) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:06:40 PM EST
    No wonder you are sorry.  I'm going to have one hell of day with a seven year old coming up with five sentences.

    Parent
    False dilemma... (none / 0) (#18)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:14:29 PM EST

    A bifurcation is a logical fallacy of false dilemma.

    His examples were also false analogies.

    In other words, he doesn't know his a** from a hole in the ground.

    Parent

    Thank you (none / 0) (#19)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:21:26 PM EST
    I was really having a rough time with Roughly speaking, a bifurcation is a qualitative change in an attractor's structure as a control parameter is smoothly varied. For example, a simple equilibrium, or fixed point attractor, might give way to a periodic oscillation as the stress on a system increases. Similarly, a periodic attractor might become unstable and be replaced by a chaotic attractor

    Parent
    OT (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 05:16:00 PM EST
    But simply stated that just says that instability can be introduced into a system not just in a linear manner (balloon gets bigger when you breathe more air in), but in sudden changes when a tipping point is reached (balloon suddenly blows up when too much air is blown in.) The bifurcation happened at 'boom.'

    More simply, bifurcation means a split. But maybe I'm just bananas;-)

    p.s. I love chaos theory and fractals!

    p.s. et al sorry for the OT.

    Parent

    Now I'm sayin' "WOW"... (none / 0) (#20)
    by desertswine on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:26:12 PM EST
    I just used it my first sentence (none / 0) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:28:19 PM EST
    of the day ;)

    Parent
    Winning war (5.00 / 2) (#24)
    by wlgriffi on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:52:10 PM EST
    "One of my problems with the Iraq war"

    Here is the problem with the war nutcases. The war was over with the fall of Bagdadd. What we have now is an OCCUPATION--I repeat an OCCUPATION. Untill this is recognized the argument of "winning the war" is just a smoke screen to avoid the fact.

    Parent

    I am ROFL (none / 0) (#12)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 03:56:07 PM EST
    Do you know how expendable soldiers were considered to be during WWII?  Do you know that inspite of WWII having a valid reason for America's involvement that the absolute disregard the command had for the cost of American life was later ruled to be appalling and the Pentagon forced HUGE doctrine changes to happen because of how we literally murdered our own troops during WWII.  Our troops have never had better equipment.  Giving them the best of the best of the best will never make Iraq a victory or anything that any of us can ever be proud of so whatever.  Whatever allows you to look yourself in the face when standing before the mirror.

    Parent
    Legal murder (none / 0) (#22)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:33:09 PM EST
    the absolute disregard the command had for the cost of American life was later ruled to be appalling and the Pentagon forced HUGE doctrine changes to happen because of how we literally murdered our own troops during WWII.

    The huge doctrinal changes of which you speak was merely a change in emphasis for achieving objectives and making war palatable. Rather than sacrificing our soldiers (what you call legal murder was the business of war for hundreds of years previously)to win power over resources, we decided to sacrifice the civilians of other nations to gain power over the world's resources.

    Give the smartest minds in our universities the task and resources for developing weapons that kill the greatest amount of people, from the furthest distance away, while putting our soldiers  at the least amount of risk and we have seen the results since WWII. Less loss of life of our soldiers and an even greater loss of lives of civilian. The evolution of mankind and warfare.

    Parent

    I'm not sure at first (none / 0) (#23)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:46:17 PM EST
    it was about making war palatable and I didn't call anything legal murder, I did say literal murder.  Some Americans were genuinely angry when they began debriefing from WWII and understood some of the exercises that Commanders "exercised" upon our troops.  People had reason to be damned angry.  I consider it a fact that America needs some kind of military.  I also consider it a fact that well over half the military knows that we can't kill the village to save the village and they find the idea repulsive, but when warhawks take over the entire government and nobody stands up to them those knowledgeable voices within the military and Pentagon aren't heard or considered when whatever course we take in a military action is being designed.  The Geneva Convention also makes war palatable if one follows your train of thought.

    Parent
    Fact or opinion (none / 0) (#27)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 09:00:47 AM EST
    My opinion is that America does not need a military. I dipute your facts. You may need the military. I don't.

    I'm not afraid to live or die. I will not commit murder, though - legal, literal or otherwise. Humans are not genetically predisposed to murder. They are socially conditioned to murder. We need to change the social conditions. Simply focusing on the warhawks while continuing our dependence on the military industrial complex to provide the economic stimulus for our economy and jobs for families like yours, only continues us along the path to murder. I am not blaming you or your family. Your are a part of our society - and our society glorifies murder, calling it war and presents it to us as a fact of life. I think this is wrong and I have no part of it.

    Parent

    And it is your right to believe as you choose (none / 0) (#28)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 09:18:39 AM EST
    to believe and live your life how you see fit.  I do think that most anthropologists would disagree with you though that mankind isn't genetically predisposed to off each other.  We have done it since the dawning of our time here on earth, and the animals of the jungle have no conscience about killing each other.  We are still animals but we have evolved and most of possess higher angels.  I believe in those higher angels and I believe in cultivating what they have to offer us.  There are still those out there though who don't and I will defend myself and my children when those people come to harm or kill my children or myself.  You believe as you believe and I believe as I believe.

    Parent
    I'm not suggesting differntly (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 09:36:29 AM EST
    I fully recognize that these are my beliefs and I might be wrong. I rarely carelessly throw around the word "fact," because I first always recognize I am not omniscient and I might be wrong. As far as genetics, nature gave us the ability to kill each other. Of course, if someone came to my home and was brandishing a weapon and threatening my family, I could kill without any regret. But, playing the game of hypotheticals, can lead us down the wrong path. Such as, Would you support torture if you knew a terrorist had knowledge of a nuclear bomb in New York City and you had to find its whereabouts before it was scheduled to go off in 24 hours? Using this scenario to justify torture leads to Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Likewise, the scenaorio for what you would do to protect your family can lead to rampant war.

    Anthropologists have many different theories and studies suggesting man is first and foremost a social animal that learns more behaviors from the society it is born into than it inherits as instinct. That we need to kill life to preserve our own is a fact. But, we can also revere life, and recognize what the Earth provides for us and be thankful for it without killing indiscriminately - which is what modern war does, with or without the  help of the warhawk.

    That is the only point I am making. I don't trust anyone in the military. I think the military is dangerous to all of mankind as well as other creatures on the Earth. Its purpose is solely to kill and it does it very efficiently without remorse, no matter who is in charge.

    I read an interesting statistic in Harpers index this month. 7000 and some military personal were killed during the Clinton administration in accidental and non-accidental deaths as a result of their service. 9000 and some have been killed during the Bush administration. I would have thought that it was many many more of our soldiers would have dies during the Bush administration. Not sure what it means, but it was an interestingf stat.

    Parent

    We have more in common than not (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:18:02 AM EST
    I think you would be surprised at how many soldiers that have remained in the United States Military revere life and in fact stay in uniform and serving to steady the hand and head of the young soldiers in Iraq right now.  I perceive how dangerous America's military is after a prolonged peaceful time often depending on who the President is.  After a time when nobody is serving who has really seen and fought in an actual war, the emotions behind the past lessons learned recede and all that remains is a doctrine that many don't emotionally understand.  They only know that they respected the old guy who handed it off to them and he had very sad eyes.  I'm in Jimmy Carter's boat and firmly believe that our military only does a good job when its existence is used as a deterrent but Dubya doesn't care what I think.  I can deal with my husband also participating in actions that attempt to stop genocide.

    I saw at Fort Carson how dangerous moving heavy war vehicles around is when they were gearing up to go to war.  I think six soldiers lost their lives just loading the trains, things fell on them off of cranes, one soldier was smashed in between trains that were being loaded.  They have to do the same loading when they train and go to NTC and soldiers are usually killed in those training exercises as well just pretending that they are fighting.  A lot of people in different occupations have a pretty high risk of being killed on the job. Police officers kind of have it a little tough sometimes and those King Crab fishermen are nuts ;)

    Here is sort of a surprising Gallup Poll that shows that Americans have more faith in the military right now than any other American institution.  Not sure why that is.

    Parent

    I don't find the poll (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 10:45:43 AM EST
    surprising. We Love War and we love the military.

    Until the military utterly fails us, we will continue to glorify it. We are the USA, a Superpower, and even as we lose economic power to other countries around the world, our military still remains supreme.

    It takes a lot not to get caught up in this Glory. My heart pumps and the adrenaline begins to rush every time I watch Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan or Martin Sheen in Apocalypse Now. I sat at the pub and watched the onset of both gulf Wars on TV with a packed crowd, just as if it was the superbowl. Our military is impressive and the gadgetry shocks and awes us all.

    But, this doesn't change the fact that tens of thousands of children, mothers and families have huddled together in fear all over the world as American Military Jets fly overhead dropping bombs and Missles, or an Army or Marine Platoon goes house to house in their neighborhood with ammunition and weapons poised to shoot anything that moves. All of this is done in our name and it has happened under every administration, including Carter's.

    I admire American soldiers and the job they do. I am not even above glorifying their jobs and missions. But this does not change the objective of the military as an institution. That there is a minority of Marines and other soldiers who have learned to revere life and will not shoot their weapons indiscriminately at civilians, I am aware. I am also aware that some of these soldiers have been killed as a result of this reverence. I am also aware that many are merely kids and putting a weapon in the hands of a young man (or woman) who is afraid to die and has an unlimited amount of ammunition in their hands will lead to some dire consequences. That is why I would choose not to have them there, even for a deterrent.

    There are other ways to reach consensus besides fighting. I am sure you tell your kids that everyday. But, our government gives us another example and after a time, we just say, thats how it has to be when people want to kill us. Or, that how it has always been.

    I am in the minority. I dare to imagine that it could be different and that we all might achieve something better that resides inside each of us. Perhaps, my hopes will lead me astray and a day will come where my belief in these hope and reverence for life will put me in danger costing my life (or even my families). Anything is possible. But, I also believe that without this hope, our world is doomed and the only thing that can nourish such a hope is love and respect for all of life and even in death this hope can still continue on because, really, the only reason and justification for life resides in the hope for better things to come and love of one another. Without that, and in the main Americans are losing each of these despite our continued reverence for the military, life is meaningless and we might as well just get on with it and kill us all.

    Parent

    A few things I quibble with (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 01:14:09 PM EST
    I don't believe Americans love war at all.  I believe that 28% of them do.  60% of them are mad as h*ll right now about Iraq, but they obviously aren't mad at their soldiers because the numbers just don't match up.  I believe that the vast majority of Americans have a firm grasp on Military Deterrent vs. Military Force and they understand that they as civilians are the "DECIDERS" if this really is a democracy of what the doctrine of their military is.  I think they are mad as h*ll right now that nobody in D.C. hears them and if D.C. isn't very careful they are going to be very sorry in the near future.  All of them!

    Apocalypse Now is a terrible movie.  The only part I even remotely conneted with was when Robert Duvall's character was broadcasting from the helicopters for the return of his surfboard.  The rest was unfit for human consumption ;)

    There is a HUGE VAST DEEP MAJORITY of American soldiers that never ever fire their weapon indiscriminately ever at civilians and my husband won't even fire on the enemy until he has checked, double checked, and rechecked that that is the enemy and only the enemy.  He can't unfire if he "F"s that one up and he takes that deadly serious.

    I don't believe there is any more glory in doing the job of a soldier than there is in being an E.R. doctor or nurse, and my God how about abortion providers right now having their lives threatened daily and some have been murdered, or an inner city teacher fighting the gangs for the souls of their kids, or the unpaid volunteer who walks into a room and gently takes the hand a beaten and brutalized rape victim.  I think we all have opportunities in our lifetimes to preform acts that are amazing feats of courage and bravery.  There are sadly those opportunities now for American soldiers and I know a lot of  amazing things that soldiers have done but this isn't the time to talk about those and almost the entire Army buttons their lips right now, looks at the ground and shakes their head no to stop anyone from telling those tales right now.  The potential is too great that evil people could only use such things to prolong death and war in Iraq. It isn't the press "cheating" Bush out of his Good Iraq Stories.  The press has a hard time even getting out of the Green Zone.  It is Bush's own soldiers "cheating" him because he would only use those things to do more damage, make more war, and get more people killed!  This is the Army I experience right now, we are structurally and some what spiritually broken and it is a hostage like humility.

    I can't speak much for the Marines.  Marines have always seemed NUTS to me and it didn't help that my father taught me that anyone who can be brainwashed that they can eat bullets and just keep on ticking is a little shy of a full deck.  I have a cousin-in-law in the Marines right now but his denial of how bad things are for everyone on the ground including Iraqis causes my husband and I to withdraw from his company at this time.  The Marines educated him into his MBA and he spends his days behind a desk negotiating deals to feed and clothe soldiers.  I seriously doubt he has seen a dead Iraqi child laying in the street.  

    Being a soldier is only a job and I hope it becomes a very boring one again soon in America.

    Parent

    A few things I quibble with... (none / 0) (#34)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 01:40:54 PM EST
    Americans are not that mad about anything. Iraqis are mad. Afghanis are mad. Some Americans are mad. Native Americans, Blacks, immigrants (legal and illegal), poor people, the slipping middle class...

    But few are that mad about the war. I don't see it. I hear some people grumbling, but I don't see it. I read some rants on the internet, but I don't see it. No, we aren't that mad, we are removed. Maybe a draft will get us mad...maybe not.

    Apocalypse now was a great movie.

    Marines are also "just doing a job," and your characterization of them from the "Armies" view sounds like a Bosox fan talking about the Yankees.

    We love the sanitized view of war. We tune into the coverage like we tune into sports. War movies are always at the top of the box office hits. Video games cater to our love for war and we consume them like candy. We love to watch those jets rumble and cruise missiles launched. We don't want to see dead american soldiers and we even don't like viewing the attrocious results of our occupation. But there is no greater high for Americans than when we launched the invasion of Iraq and when we dropped the "daisy cutters" over Tora Bora. We love it.

    Parent

    Some Americans.... (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by kdog on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 02:03:24 PM EST
    are mad that their neighbor's children make noise while playing outdoors....mad enough to call the cops and propose new noise ordinances.

    Iraq Occupation?  Not so much...out of sight of mind.

    Parent

    To each his own reality I suppose (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 02:19:05 PM EST
    You are the one who thinks of the military though as baseball teams, not me.  Perhaps that has something to do with how little you really understand about what they do or how the majority of them really conduct themselves in real life and in combat.  I'm not really going to worry about it from here because the majority of my countrymen GET IT and that's good for me because that is what a democracy is about. I live among the military and I understand the significant differences between the branches and their doctrines.  I never said the Marines weren't doing their job.  Just meant to say I didn't know how all of this was shaking out affecting the people who really are Marines and not just figments of your imagination. My cousin-in-law I don't feel is in a position to reflect the majority of Marines that have been deployed and actually been to Iraq because he hasn't been there and my husband has and he sees my cousin very out of touch in an administration sort of way.  Real soldiers will tell you that Apocalypse Now is War Porn.

    Parent
    OK, TRACEY (none / 0) (#37)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 02:31:00 PM EST
    I know where you are coming from and we travel in different circles. We both live in America.

    My point is that Apocalypse Now is porn and that is why we love it. Check out how well porn sells in America and you will get the point.

    You live and believe in an idealized version of America. Good for you. And you are disgusted that Bush betrayed you. Good for you. I am too. But I operate under no pretensions that there isn't someone just as willing as BUsh to betray you and your husband and all good people who choose a career in the military.

    But, you know what? I empathize with your plights and I cry over the losses that you suffer. However, a life in the military is all about war. This idea of it being a deterrent, I don't buy. We build weapons to use and we will always use them and never will it be about democracy. I realize that the majority of my countrymen don't feel as I do. But, I also know that the majority of my countrymen don't take democracy seriously. So, my final point is that, even if I suffer with you over your losses, I don't feel your sense of betrayal. I never believed that crap that people fed me about the military. Not when I was five, not when I was 20 and being recruited and certainly not now at 42. If you would have asked me when I was twenty if you and your husband would be betrayed by the commander-in-chief along with the American people, I would have said, "of course you will, but go ahead sign your life away."

    Its tragic and I hate it, but the military has nothing to do with democracy. Never did and it never will.

    Parent

    No YOU love Apocalypse Now (none / 0) (#38)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 03:38:02 PM EST
    Please stop projecting on me and anyone else who doesn't "love it because it is War Porn".  A lot of people really exposed to or responsible for a role in the worst case scenario of war don't like that stuff.  There isn't a war movie I like that much. I come here to support any kind of political fight to end the Iraq War and BTD is part of a savvy well thought out and supported within the Senate battle to accomplish that. The military does have something to do with this democracy as long as a majority of the people say so and they say so.  It is hard to not have a military in a world that does create dictators even worse than Bush (who we don't have to have forever thank God).  Other dictators have militaries and could easily want what we have.  A dictator's military probably isn't one that is volunteer or interested in following any kind of ROE or Geneva Convention and just very well armed and angry.  I think it vain as to believe that America and everything that America does militarily or otherwise creates all the other military problems in this world and if we just stopped having a military everybody else would throw their's away too and we could all hold hands and live happily ever after.  American just isn't that important in the grand scheme. It's a nice thought but it isn't realistic and my DNA insists that I protect my DNA.  This has been a plight for me but I'm seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.  It has been hard having my life hijacked by a rubber stamped dictator. The political fight to end Iraq is heating up big time right now and if it fails and we end up in another Vietnam mess this family only has to survive this for another year and a half and then we can leave without passing Leavenworth first.  I really want to keep my eyes on the prize and I don't want to be distracted by debates that accomplish nothing obtainable for anyone other than neener neener neener, so I step back from this conversation now.  Be Well...I have to finish the laundry and I get to watch Jimmy Neutron for the rest of the day .

    Parent
    Projecting, (none / 0) (#39)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 04:07:48 PM EST
    Apocalypse Now was a popular movie. It still is. The army loves it. There were stories from embedded journalists about soldiers playing Wagner as they advanced on Bahgdad. I'm only repeating what journalists reported on.

    We outspend all other nations put together in the world on our military. Yes, if we got rid of our military and our weapons and our citizens in this democracy, instead of electing a president who invades countries, chose instead not to volunteer for military service and do the bidding of the corporatocracy, the world would be a more peaceful place. I truly believe that.

    Nothing is being done to end the Iraq war here. Nothing is being done anywhere. We will be there next year. We will be there until either the oil runs out or our republic collapses under the weight of the debt our military expenditures have placed on us. I'd like to be able to predict when either would happen. But, I am not a fortune teller. All I can tell you is that the democratic congress, elections sponsored by the corporatocracy, or a new president is not going to end the war in Iraq. They might end the occupation, but the war will continue there and elsewhere for as long as we can afford it (and we can't afford it much longer - but that has nothing to do with defunding efforts by BTD or anyone else).

    Parent

    Porn (none / 0) (#40)
    by Peaches on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 04:28:44 PM EST
    Pornography is a fantasy that appeals to our basest desires. Men are especially vulnerable to its appeal, but women can be sucked in as well.

    It is not real life and it is not meant to be. It is a fantasy. Like sex-porn, where what is experienced is nothing like the real thing, war films and video games glorify killing and appeal to those impulses inside of us that our in our genes, but bring them out into the open, usually with the objective of selling something or making a profit. I consider most advertising to be a from of pornography. And sex-porn merely intends to sell more sex-porn. But violence porn not only wants to sell itself by selling more films and games it wants to sell the idea of killing itself, and war as something desirable. Films like Apocalypse Now are popular because they are porn and teenagers that watch them or play violent video games often feel more attracted to life in the military so they can play at real war. The fact that real war is nothing like the films or games doesn't mean that we don't love the porn anyway.

    You don't like Apocalypse Now, and that is fine. But your fellow citizens loved it. If you don't recognize that Americans love their violence and their wars, then we truly are living far apart.

    Parent

    Ostensibly in Vietnam (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 03:33:57 PM EST
    Our allies were the South Vietnamese. Where could we drop an Atomic bomb in Vietnam and not risk fallout? Since the North was allied with the USSR, what do you suppose might have been the response?

    Just hope and pray when they drop the bomb,
    They drop it on the Vietcong!
    And its 1,2 3...



    Parent

    Wrong message (none / 0) (#3)
    by Sailor on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 02:41:11 PM EST
    the message is don't start wars on lies.

    WMDs or Tonkin Gulf.

    Parent

    hmmm, (none / 0) (#4)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 02:45:45 PM EST
    Don't mind me, while I scratch my head in thought. We've killed thousands of Iraqis, and we are no closer to winning. I suppose we could kill thousands more by dropping a nuke on them like Johnson, to win your admiration, but that starts a new world war and  no one wins in this scenario.

    We could start a draft and send more troops, but we'd need more money to rebuild a military that is vastly overextended and rundown. We could "stay the course" and continue to fight, but lose some more.

    We don't have an agenda that I am aware of. One day it is about Iran, the next day about Sadr, then the next is is about the Baathists, then the next about the Sunni Insurgents, and then the next day about Al Quaeda, and finally if the Iraqi parliament would just sign the damn oil bill.

    There is nothing to win. We've already lost. You might as well do it. Drop the bomb! (scratches his head some more) Will, that make you feel better?

    Parent

    while headscratching I mistook Johnson for Truman (none / 0) (#5)
    by Peaches on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 02:47:02 PM EST
    And (none / 0) (#15)
    by HeadScratcher on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:03:55 PM EST
    I agree with you. Believe it or not. Except for we've already lost. It can be turned around to a political victory but not with these turds in power.

     

    Parent

    Same old same old (none / 0) (#17)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 04:08:18 PM EST
    Is this 1965 or 1966 or maybe it is 1967 or 1968?  

    Parent
    Resisting the Drums of War (none / 0) (#7)
    by Roy Eidelson on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 03:09:24 PM EST
    The Bush administration succeeded in promoting the misguided and destructive war in Iraq with messages targeting our core concerns about vulnerability, injustice, distrust, superiority, and helplessness. Looking ahead, they will likely try to sell us a continuing occupation of Iraq--or an attack on Iran--in much the same way. I examine these warmongering appeals and how to counter them in a new 10-minute video entitled "Resisting the Drums of War." It's available for viewing on YouTube HERE.

    Someone is a little worried about (none / 0) (#8)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jun 21, 2007 at 03:33:49 PM EST
    how p*ssed you guys are getting.  Since it is only a worst case scenario though and nothing in writing I think you guys are going to have to stay good and p*ssed to hope to help your soldiers.  Or you could not be p*ssed about the draft so you don't abuse your soldiers anymore.

    FOG WATCH: (none / 0) (#30)
    by Edger on Fri Jun 22, 2007 at 09:41:48 AM EST
    The U.S. Now Poses the Greatest Threat of Any Country (.pdf)
    The harsh title of this essay is not based on the belief that U.S. leaders are the most vicious ever, although they are amply arrogant, ruthless and even vicious, rendered more hypocritical by the veneer of self-righteousness and Godly service. Rather it rests, first, on the facts that they have far more destructive power than any predecessors, have already used it and threaten to escalate their violence, and are not only subject to inadequate constraints but operate in a political culture that is volatile, manipulable, and contains threatening irrational elements. The rise of U.S. destructive power, far beyond anything related to national "defense," and far beyond the capabilities of any potential rivals, was clearly purposeful and designed to serve both the transnational business and financial interests of the U.S. elite and the
    contractor-Pentagon-politician vested interest in militarization - the military industrial complex (MIC).

    U.S. military and economic power have allowed it to engage in three wars of aggression in violation of the UN Charter in the last decade without any serious opposition by the UN or "international community" (i.e., governments capable of any effective opposition to hegemonic power).
    ...
    In the case of its attack on Iraq the United States even received from the UN ex post facto recognition of its occupation and pacification rights - which helps explain the August 19, 2003 bombing of the UN offices in Baghdad - and the UN is busily engaged in providing the United States and Israel with some kind of quasi-legal sanction for the next phase of the U.S.'s serial aggressions.

    Global publics have disapproved of these aggressions, and protests have grown in breadth and size, but thus far they have not been able to stop the onslaughts. Democracy is not working well across the globe as elite rulers have regularly ignored public antiwar sentiment as expressed in elections as well as polls, and where they have not, as in France and Turkey in 2003, those rulers have been vilified in the United States and have struggled to compensate for their democratic excesses. In the United States itself, not only has the ruling elite been able to ignore poll majorities favoring an exit from Iraq, the 2006 election victory of the Democrats, widely seen to have been a reflection of the public's interest in withdrawal, has not prevented a further Bush escalation of the war, with only nominal Democratic Party resistance. In another mark of democratic failure, the Democrats agreed to remove a funding bill requirement that Bush seek congressional approval before launching an attack on Iran.
    ...
    The world needs leadership in resolving these real problems, and what it has been getting from the United States are policies that waste resources, stoke conflict, kill and destroy, and literally fight against a constructive dealing with the threatening environmental disasters. The "end times" folks that have close links to the Bush administration may be getting their Armageddon without any divine aid, merely by Bush-U.S. policy as usual.