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Court Reissues PlameGate Opinion Adding Karl Rove's Name

How close did Karl Rove come to getting indicted in PlameGate? As they say, "this close." Check out today's re-issued opinion (pdf) in the Judith Miller - Matthew Cooper D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals subpoena case containing new un-redactions: the name of Karl Rove.

Now unredacted:

"Regarding Cooper, the special counsel has demonstrated that his testimony is essential to charging decisions regarding White House adviser Karl Rove."

Then on page 39:

"Thus, given the compelling showing of need and exhaustion, plus the sharply tilted balance between harm and news value, the special counsel may overcome the reporters’ qualified privilege, even if his only purpose—at least at this stage of his investigation—is to shore up perjury charges against leading suspects such as Libby and Rove."

The unredaction there is the last two words: "and Rove."

There's more goodies, including those about Armitage, Libby and Cheney. The pdf is searchable, type in your favorite name. The unredactions are in italics.

[Hat tip to TL reader and diarist Scribe.]

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    A Bit Of (4.50 / 2) (#3)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 12:52:53 PM EST
    Vindication for Jason Leopold, no?

    Not really (none / 0) (#8)
    by robrecht on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 02:24:33 PM EST
    IIRC, Jason reported a year ago that Rove had already been indicted and that Fitzgerald would make a public announcement of the indictment within a number of days.  When that obviously never happened, they speculated that perhaps Rove's indictment was secret (06 cr 128, sealed v sealed).  To date this case remains sealed.

    Parent
    Well I Said A Bit (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 02:43:20 PM EST
    How ungenerous of you, but you are not alone. There are many Leopold haters out there, I am not one of them. To me the guy is doing far more good work than bad.

    Parent
    Get a grip (1.00 / 1) (#10)
    by robrecht on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 05:00:17 PM EST
    What in the world are you talking about?  I expressed no hatred for Jason Leopold.  Why would you accuse me of a lack of generosity?

    Parent
    I have a grip (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 05:50:13 PM EST
    Thanks.

    Sorry, I thought you were among the legions of Leopold haters.
    Glad to hear that you are not.

    To me this news makes me think that Leopold was on to something that ultimately fizzled out. Many think that he made the whole story up to get attention.

    Sorry to have called you ungenerous for not thinking Leopold deserves a bit of vindication. We just disagree on that.
    It was a kneejerk reaction because I think that the mass condemnation of Leopold was really unfair and I lumped you in to that group.  


    Parent

    Mmmm, Leopold Kool-aid (3.00 / 2) (#13)
    by CMike on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:32:18 PM EST
    Everyone following the case knew Karl Rove was on thin legal ice. What Leopold did was to pass off an educated guess of his as solid inside information. When the accuracy of his exclusive was questioned soon thereafter, Leopold promised he would expose his sources if it turned out they had misled him. Well the Leopold story was bogus and he failed to name his sources.

    Indictments don't fizzle out after they are returned by grand juries. Leopold was lying from start to finish in this matter. A journalist who lies some of the time is worse than useless as a journalist all of the time.

    Parent

    What you are doing is (4.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Edger on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 07:30:34 AM EST
    passing off a guess, and not even an educated one, by saying: "What Leopold did was to pass off an educated guess of his as solid inside information."

    You have no way of knowing that.

    Jason Leopold may have been right that Rove was to have been indicted... The circumstances may have been changed by events or through machinations we know nothing of.

    Jason Leopold may have been wrong. He may have misinterpreted things his sources told him.

    He may have been truthful and honest in his reporting. His sources may have misled him, either because they thought they were giving him accurate information, or because they may have themselves been misled by other sources who either may have thought they had real information or who may have been fed lies by others who knew they would pass them to Jason's sources as fact.

    We can speculate forever on what happened... As I see it, the greatest danger that may come of this is that the quality of new reporting by the MSM with their golden handcuffed reporters, the real media and independent journalists beholden to no one, and the blogosphere, may deteriorate through the fear that there will from now on be absolutely no way to have 100% confidence in sources in future it it turns out that Jason Leopold was set up.

    Some have suggested that Leopold's article was intentional lies and fabrications. I think that is the least likely possibility, if for no other reason that he could not possibly hope to gain from such.

    There's an elephant sitting in the middle of the room that I see some are doing their squirmiest best to avoid looking at.

    Why would anyone lie knowing that he'd be caught at it and damage his reputation?

    The uncomfortable truth of it is that no one would, unless completely off his nut. Which is why the swiftboating of Jason Leopold and the impugning of his professionalism, ability and credibility, and the portraying of him as drug damaged and incompetent began...

    Standard Rovian tactics. Demonize the messenger. At all costs avoid addressing the issue or considering the message.

    If Jason didn't lie, then either his sources did, or his sources themselves were lied to... If Jason didn't lie, then either his sources did, or his sources themselves were lied to.

    And the ramifications of that are obviously too uncomfortably close to the bone for some to accept.

    You are correct that "Leopold promised he would expose his sources if it turned out they had misled him"

    You have no direct knowledge that his sources "misled" him. If  you did you'd know more about the circumstances than anyone in the world. If you are claiming inside information that no one else has the it's time you spit it out. If you don't have it you are doing exactly what you accuse Jason Leopold of doing.

    Whether intentionally or not, you are exacerbating the swiftboating of Jason Leopold.

    Parent

    Yes That's (none / 0) (#14)
    by squeaky on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:37:04 PM EST
    The current popular opinion. I'm not as convinced as you are that Leopold made it all up with no source.

    We'll see. Or not.

    Parent

    The question is (none / 0) (#18)
    by aj12754 on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 06:57:58 AM EST
    whether he should have gone with a story he couldn't back up.  It was inevitable that doing so would lead people to take him less seriously than other bloggers working the same territory.

    Parent
    My personal opinion is that (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 10:41:27 AM EST
    Jason had good solid reliable sources for the story whom he had worked with in the past, that he was set up, and that the way he was set up is that his sources were lied to and were confident that they were passing reliable information to him. So the sources, in fact did not mislead him. They told him what they "knew". They did not mislead him (intentionally or knowingly).


    Parent
    How does this vindicate Jason Leopold? (none / 0) (#22)
    by robrecht on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 10:04:35 AM EST
    No problem, just realize that I don't engage in hyperbolic political rants and distortions or, in other words, I'm not a hater.

    Now, as to our point of disagreement, perhaps you could address CMike's point: "Everyone following the case knew Karl Rove was on thin legal ice."

    How does yesterday's story vindicate Jason Leopold even a bit, whose famous story was much later and much more specific in it's details?

    Parent

    OK (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 11:41:35 AM EST
    How close did Karl Rove come to getting indicted in PlameGate? As they say, "this close."

    For me that is a bit of vindication. As far as CMike's comment goes, he claims to know that Leopold made the story up out of whole cloth.

    That says everything about Cmike and nothing about Leopold.

    Parent

    Sorry, ... (none / 0) (#26)
    by robrecht on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 02:06:09 PM EST
    ... but that's not the comment that I quoted and asked you to address.  If you just want to argue with CMike that's your business, but I'm trying to get you to explain your disagreement with me on this specific point.

    Parent
    The News (none / 0) (#27)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 02:34:04 PM EST
    That Rove was very close to being indicted vindicates Leopold a bit for me. There is really nothing more. I have no problem that you see no connection to the news and Leopold's reporting about Rove.

     Many have villified Leopold's person for his Rove Indictment story, I am not in that camp. The story turned out not to be true but so what. I did not make any bets on it or lose any sleep on either end of the story as much as I would have liked it to pan out.  If Leopold writes something else that is breaking I will take it with the same grains of salt that I did before his Indictment story.

    There is no proof to my feeling. You simply do not share the same feeling that I have which is largely one of generosity toward Leopold, however a flawed person he may be.  I believe that he adds, rather than subtracts, to the mix and was/is  treated quite unfairly.

    Parent

    Generous feelings don't change history (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by robrecht on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 03:13:27 PM EST
    I don't think it's a question of generostiy but rather of understanding this "news" and whether or not it relates to Jason Leopold's reporting of Rove's indictment.

    The "news" from yesterday is that in December of 2004 Patrick Fitzgerald argued that Matthew Cooper's testimony was essential to deciding whether or not to charge Rove.

    In May of 2006, Jason Leopold reported that Karl Rove had already been indicted and that in a secret meeting on May 12th 13 May 2006 Fitzgerald served Rove's attorneys with the indictment and said Rove had 24 hours to get his affairs in order.  Leopold had also reported that Rove himself had already told Bush and Bolten and others that he would be indicted and would immediately resign when Fitzgerald announced the charges.

    This "news" from December 2004 does not in any way vindicate Jason's reporting in May of 2006.

    Parent

    Yes I Understand (none / 0) (#29)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 03:41:43 PM EST
    The timeline, as I was following Plamegate quite closely. Thanks for laying it out so clearly, though.

    This is not about math and I am not trying to change history.  Just stating my opinion. From my point of view this opens up more questions about Rove and why he ultimately got a get out of jail free card.

    Perhaps a hypothetical may explain my feelings as to how this relates to Leopold:

    What if a document surfaced proving that at no time did Fitzgerald ever consider Rove to have broken the law in the scope of his investigation. That would show that Leopold was either duped or lying.

    There are still many unanswered questions regarding Rove's involvement in outing Plame to the creation of the Niger scam. I for one am happy that Leopold is out there reporting. This is a bit good news for him. Nothing major. Hardly worth all these words.

    What do you think of Leopold's reporting in general?

    Parent

    Hypothetical parallel universes (none / 0) (#32)
    by robrecht on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 03:58:46 PM EST
    I'm glad you're not trying to change history, but you are retreating into hypotheticals.  Yes, it's true that in a hypthetical world of parallel universes it is indeed possible that Jason Leopold could be even more discredited.  That, however, does not explain why Leopold's reporting from May of 2006 in this world was vindicated by this news from December of 2004, again in this world.

    This is not about math and I am not trying to change history.  Just stating my opinion. From my point of view this opens up more questions about Rove and why he ultimately got a get out of jail free card.

    Perhaps a hypothetical may explain my feelings as to how this relates to Leopold:

    What if a document surfaced proving that at no time did Fitzgerald ever consider Rove to have broken the law in the scope of his investigation. That would show that Leopold was either duped or lying.

    There are still many unanswered questions regarding Rove's involvement in outing Plame to the creation of the Niger scam. I for one am happy that Leopold is out there reporting. This is a bit good news for him. Nothing major. Hardly worth all these words.

    What do you think of Leopold's reporting in general?

    Parent

    OK (none / 0) (#33)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:16:35 PM EST
    Sorry to give you an example that was not useful, as you seem to have had a snark fest with it.

    Looks like this question may be the answer:

    What do you think of Leopold's reporting in general?

    Parent

    Snark Fest? (none / 0) (#34)
    by robrecht on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:33:45 PM EST
    I've merely asked you to explain how this news from December of 2004 vindicates Jason Leopold's reporting of very specific events in May of 2006.

    I can't really answer your question very well because I have not formed an opinion on Jason Leopold's reporting in general.  I'm only really aware of his reporting of this story.  I do recall that a few months before Raw Story stopped carrying his stories and I've heard he's had problems with other publishers but I don't have any first hand knowledge of this.

    Not sure you should be accusing people of snark fests.  I've already defended myself against your charges that I'm not generous and that I'm a hater.

    Parent

    Unaware? (none / 0) (#35)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:42:03 PM EST
    Parallel Universe? If that is not snark, not sure what is.

    Parent
    Snark or just humor? (none / 0) (#36)
    by robrecht on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:48:55 PM EST
    But you brought up a hypothetical defense of your point ... rather than just answer my question about your disagreement with me.

    It's good to have a sense of humor  

    Parent

    YEs (none / 0) (#37)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 04:59:00 PM EST
    It's good to have a sense of humor. No argument there.

    Parent
    Humor is truth (none / 0) (#38)
    by robrecht on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 05:03:21 PM EST
    It's also good to answer questions or admit when one is wrong.

    Parent
    Wrong? (none / 0) (#39)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 05:34:14 PM EST
    How can what I said be wrong? It is a feeling about material that no one knows about couched by giving the minimum uptick to Leopold in light of news.

    I have no problem admiting to being wrong. Sorry that my answer to your question falls short of what you are looking for.

    From my point of view you are looking for absolutes here where there are none.

    As far as humor goes you do not seem that funny, so I'm not sure that your truism is working for you. But I am always up for a laugh so I am keeping an open mind.

    Parent

    Feelings, nothing more than feeling ... (none / 0) (#40)
    by robrecht on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 05:47:53 PM EST
    I did not say your feelings about the unknown were wrong, but I did say that this piece of news from December 2004 does not really vindicate Jason's reporting from May of 2006.  You keep insisting it does but won't explain how or why.

    Sorry you don't find me funny, but I did not claim to be funny, just amused at your hypothetical reasoning and evasions.

    Parent

    You can't reason with zealots (none / 0) (#30)
    by CMike on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 03:41:50 PM EST
    Scroll down to the Listen Now feature in Mike Stark's post and listen to Jason Leopold himself.

    Leopold says both at the beginning and the end of the interview that he will out his sources if they have led him astray; in the first instance he says if they "led me astray" and the the second instance if they are "leading me astray." The will not tolerate being led "astray" construction Leopold twice uses implies that he will hold his sources to a higher standard for accuracy than will a reporter who will not tolerate being misled by his sources - in the former construction there's no wiggle room for sources later claiming to have been misinformed themselves by others.

    Leopold explicitly states that he has sources, not just one source in this matter. Leopold says, "These are people I trust, they are also sources who know full well..." As an aside, Karl Rove does not have a Secret Service detail that accompanies him.

    Here's what Leopold says in the interview at one point, and I do quote: Patrick Fitzgerald handed indictment(sic) to Rove's attorney and instructed Rove he has twenty-four quote twenty-four business hours to get his(sic) affairs in order.

    That use of the word "quote" is a nice touch isn't it? Don't waste your time with Leopold's defenders, they may visit from time to time but they refuse to live in "the reality based community."  

    Parent

    Frothing Zealot (none / 0) (#31)
    by squeaky on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 03:52:52 PM EST
    Sounds to me that you are the Zealot. I have no stake in the Leopold story. I do not read him regularly. If he writes something interesting I read it and see no point in marganilizing him. He is a minor voice that adds to the dialogue.

    Saying that this news vindicates Leopold a bit is not remotely the  postion of a zealot. Your froth on the other hand is full of zeal.

    Parent

    "perjury charges agains Rove pg 39" (1.00 / 1) (#20)
    by diogenes on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 07:53:52 AM EST
    Strange how nowhere in this is any reference to actually indicting anyone for "leaking" the "covert status" of secret agent "Plame".

    Good question, lampless (none / 0) (#24)
    by Edger on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 10:58:11 AM EST
    Who, in your opinion, should be indicted?

    Cheney? Bush? Or both of them?

    Parent

    who to indict (1.00 / 0) (#41)
    by diogenes on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 09:15:22 PM EST
    If Libby leaked, indict him.  If Rove leaked, then indict him.  If Armitage leaked, then indict him.  It is a matter of public record around here that Libby and Armitage leaked stuff to reporters; Libby's coverup might have protected Cheney but it wouldn't protect Libby himself.
    Occam's razor says that no one of these many people have been indicted for leaking the identity of the "covert" Plame because, well, she wasn't covert.

    You're a lawyer now? (none / 0) (#42)
    by Edger on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 09:41:52 PM EST
    Occam's Razor says you're not.

    And Occam's Razor says nothing about the reasons that no one has been convicted of any crime for which no person has been indicted.

    But the Republican Bush Administration appointed prosecutor in the case, Patrick Fitzgerald, did explain that Libby's obstruction of justice through his lies to the FBI in the course of their investigations prevented him -- and the grand jury -- from determining whether the alleged leak violated federal law.

    Occam's Razor says you probably need new batteries for your lamp too, diogenes. You're having trouble seeing the simplest explanations.

    Parent

    Edger (1.00 / 1) (#43)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 11:16:06 PM EST
    and the grand jury -- from determining whether the alleged leak violated federal law.

    Nonsense. Federal law is plain. He either violated it or he did not.

    Parent

    Good grief (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 11:25:00 PM EST
    You haven't the vaguest.

    Occam's razor is a logical principle attributed to the mediaeval philosopher William of Occam (or Ockham). The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This principle is often called the principle of parsimony. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one.

    On the one hand we have a twisted tale of conspiracy to leak the name of a non-secret agent by dozens (okay, three or four)....

    On the other we have a guy who has a terrible memory....

    See the difference??

    I'm LOL, edger. You are a funny dude when you try and make an argument. Maybe that's why you normally depend on "Bush bad" links.

    Parent

    Hope Bush says this (1.00 / 0) (#44)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 11:18:59 PM EST
    There is no reason for a man to lie about something that to him was unimportant. Therefore, I believe, again, that Mr. Libby did not commit perjury. It is on that basis -- and on the totality of the other evidence, which I will not rehash here -- that I pardon Mr. Libby.

    Link


    DA (1.00 / 0) (#47)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 09:55:30 AM EST
    Gee, why do you keep repeating what Russert told Libby and vice versa??

    Did you read the link??

    No? Thought so.

    Goodbye.

    That's easy. (1.00 / 0) (#49)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 01, 2007 at 03:36:29 PM EST
    Uh, they may both think they are correct based on faulty memories.

    It is possible that not eveything that results in a disagreement is a lie.

    Try to remember that.

    Parent

    Why are opinions reissued? (none / 0) (#1)
    by jerry on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 12:40:42 PM EST
    I find it interesting an opinion can be reissued -- what prompts that?

    It was reissued (none / 0) (#5)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 01:22:27 PM EST
    to include information that was previously under seal. Since Libby's sentencing and with Fitzgerald saying no one else will be charged, there's no longer any reason to keep it sealed. At least that's my guess.

    They didn't change anything, just supplied some of the language that had been redacted (hidden) in the earlier version.

    Parent

    the opinion was reissued because (none / 0) (#6)
    by scribe on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 01:23:08 PM EST
    Dow Jones & Co., which had been one of the media organizations seeking to have access to the whole opinion, renewed its application after the conclusion of the Libby trial.  Here's a link to the DC Circuit's opinion deciding their renewed application. Fitz wanted to give less than we ultimately got, and Dow Jones wanted all of the redactions removed.

    Parent
    In layman's terms what does this mean? (none / 0) (#2)
    by Electa on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 12:42:10 PM EST


    an explanation in lay terms (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Beldar on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 06:41:29 PM EST
    It means that Fitzgerald was very seriously considering asking the grand jury to indict Rove as of the time he asked U.S. District Judge Hogan to hold Miller, Cooper, and Time Inc. in contempt of court for their refusal to testify pursuant to the grand jury's subpoenas of them.

    He won that fight, the journalists appealed, and Fitz was still considering asking the grand jury to indict Rove as of the time he filed his briefs in the D.C. Circuit.

    One of the things that the D.C. Circuit three-judge panel relied upon — as part of their balancing of the grand jury's and Fitzgerald's need for the testimony versus the reporters' desire to keep their sources confidential — was Fitz' assertion that this testimony from the journalists was essential in order for him to be able to decide whether to ask the grand jury to indict Libby.  We've known that since the Libby indictment.

    Now we also know that Fitz told the D.C. Circuit at the same time that he needed the journalists' testimony to decide whether to ask the grand jury to indict Rove, too.  That was hidden — redacted, or concealed — in the version of the D.C. Circuit's decision that was previously released, in order to protect the privacy rights of people who were under grand jury consideration but hadn't been indicted (like Rove).

    We can presume that after the U.S. Supreme Court denied the journalists' petition asking them to overturn the D.C. Circuit's decision, Fitz did eventually (after Judy Miller gave up her defiance and got out of jail) get all the testimonial cooperation he wanted.  Otherwise he would have brought further contempt charges.  We don't know exactly what all that testimony was, though, because it's still largely cloaked in grand jury secrecy (and always will be).  Of course, we know what those witnesses later said at Libby's trial, but they may have been asked things about Rove in the grand jury that nobody had a sound basis to ask about during the Libby trial.

    We know that Fitz has said he's not going to seek any more indictments in addition to Libby.

    So whatever the journalists did say, after the courts made them testify, it ended up either (1) not persuading Fitz to ask the grand jury to indict Rove (the most likely explanation), or (2) Fitz did ask them to indict Rove, but the grand jury no-billed him (very unlikely).

    The new revelation of what was going on behind the scenes at the D.C. Circuit is fascinating, but it doesn't change anything.  Rove still isn't going to be indicted.

    It is, however, surprising to me at least that the D.C. Circuit saw fit to allow it to be revealed that Fitzgerald was trying to indict Rove.  I need to study its decision a bit, and might comment on that on my own blog.

    Does that help, Electa?

    (Excellent post, thank you Jeralyn.)

    Parent

    Yes, it does and thank you so much (none / 0) (#15)
    by Electa on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 08:47:14 PM EST
    what is your blog address?  It gives a since of relief that at minimum Fitz was considering indicting the dough boy.  At least he made the pitbull sweat a bit.  Thanx again, Beldar.

    Parent
    address (none / 0) (#16)
    by Beldar on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 09:30:39 PM EST
    It's beldar.org ... but be advised, I'm a conservative law blogger.

    However, I welcome civil opposing opinions in comments on my blog, and I respect honest and intelligent bloggers from the left like Jeralyn who allow me the opportunity to comment occasionally on theirs.

    On the Libby case in particular, I've been generally supportive of Team Fitz throughout, which seems to me a conservative position but admittedly puts me out of step with most of the conservative punditry.

    Parent

    Obstruction of justice and perjury (none / 0) (#17)
    by robrecht on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 06:16:41 AM EST
    It's nice when people from opposing perspectives can have civil and enlightening discourse.  I agree that conservatives should ordinarily denounce perjury and obstruction of justice, but when political allegiance becomes normative for the positions one takes, everything else can be distorted, including common sense.  Thanks for posting.

    Parent
    Much agreed, and ... (none / 0) (#21)
    by Beldar on Sat Jun 30, 2007 at 09:34:59 AM EST
    Part of being intellectually honest is recognizing your biases and prejudices, and trying to fight against and compensate for them. I try to do that, with such success as I'm able, which despite my best efforts will never be quite successful. Jeralyn and many of her commenters do too, which makes this site worth reading as an island in a sea of bile. I hope the same is true of mine. It's a noble struggle.

    Parent
    The grand jury (none / 0) (#4)
    by sphealey on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 01:14:09 PM EST
    I find it very interesting that no one on the grand jury that indicted Libby but didn't indict Rove has sought out any reporter, or been willing to talk to any reporter that found them.  That was what, 25 people?  They are all taking the concept of grand jury secrecy to a hyper-level which is very unusual for a group that size.  I wonder why?

    sPh

    because it's a grand jury, and not a (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by scribe on Fri Jun 29, 2007 at 01:41:55 PM EST
    regular petit jury.  There's a strong rule of secrecy for grand jurors and grand jury material and they dare not breach it, lest they be held in contempt of court.

    Parent
    Virtue (none / 0) (#51)
    by Virtue Lord Purple on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 03:41:38 PM EST
    I have news for you folks. Bush is `The Leaker'.

    In the Name of Brutus

    Dames and Gents,

               In times unprecedented and tinged with despair, it is appropriate to reflect on the founding of our great nation. It was not with George Washington, but with Brutus, and not the one who killed Caeser. There was another who rebelled against the tyrant monarchy of Rome, The Tarquins. He wrote the Roman Constitution that would stand for 500 years. His sons sided with the monarchy. The monarchy lost. So to punish his sons and found a perfect union, he immolated his own sons.
              Machiavelli speaks fluently and voluminoulsy and voiciferously on this subject, in `The Discourses', and yet is proved wrong on several counts by the miracle of America. He says that a nation founded in servitude, as America was a colony, will never win its freedom. He also says that a nation founded on fertile soil that is easily defended, will in time loose all of its freedoms because it will become, eventually, inevitably, sloth and sated, and will forget to protect them.
             As regards 'The DC Madam', I am personally involved. You can view my involvement at http://www.maytheygetwhattheydeserve.com/KAT.html
    Sometimes a mouse will lead you to a kat, and a kat can lead you to a rat and a rat, ironically, can lead you to the truth. And the truth, as they say, and as it is written, will set you free.
            May all those who sincerely and patiently wait for freedom be free and may all those who desire to steal those freedoms find instead the dire consequences that accompany contempt for a great man like Brutus.

    As regards Machiavelli,
    eram sapiens tamen nefas
    And again,
    vox vocis publicus est vox vocis deus

    May The Republic stand forever and bring the Glory Of The World, with Dignity, into Its Treasury.

    Purple

    risible to every occasion (none / 0) (#52)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 16, 2007 at 04:48:27 PM EST
    Not to mention EVERYONE contradicted scooter's lies.