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The Right Kind of Christian

Digby points out what we should all know by now; the Radical Religious Right is intolerant of religious beliefs not in lockstep with their own:

Liberal faith . . . ultimately morphs into societal and self-improvement efforts and jettisons the life-changing message of salvation, forgiveness of sins and a transformed life.

If the newspaper story is accurate, this is where Clinton is on her faith: "In a brief quiz about her theological views, Mrs. Clinton said she believed in the resurrection of Jesus, though she described herself as less sure of the doctrine that being a Christian is the only way to salvation."

This is a politician speaking, not a person who believes in the central tenets of Christianity. . . . Clinton is entitled to whatever faith she wants to practice, but when she uses it as an election tactic, she should not be allowed to alter classic Christian theology.

If it is "classic Christian theology" that Cal Thomas is looking for, how about the Spanish Inquisition? It always makes me smile when Southern Baptists speak in this fashion. Cuz in the "classic Christian theology" - ole Cal Thomas is a heretic. I also wonder when ole Cal is gonna dissect Mitt Romney's Christianity.

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    Thomas and Co., (5.00 / 2) (#5)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:24:11 PM EST
    like Imperial Wizard Falwell before, are wedge issue water carriers running on Scaife, Olin, Coors and Koch money, and "the secularists" they're always ranting about, on closer inspection, would probobly include the millions of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus living in the U.S.

    My qustion is, how did this walking insult to serious journalism ever get such a wide platform?

    Definition (none / 0) (#77)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:38:59 PM EST
    secular humanism

    HUMANISM 3; especially : humanistic philosophy viewed as a nontheistic religion antagonistic to traditional religion
    - secular humanist noun or adjective

    So it is religions, not christians only.

    Parent

    Let me guess (none / 0) (#88)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:10:26 PM EST
    That's the definition from wingnutipedia.

    Parent
    Wrong (1.00 / 0) (#93)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:39:07 PM EST
    For another $1.00 you can guess again.

    BTW - What do you find objectionable about it?

    Parent

    The word secular (5.00 / 2) (#100)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:06:52 PM EST
    should be your first clue. Only a wingnut would view a "humanistic philosophy" as a "nontheistic religion". You might just as well say "Science: a humanistic philosophy viewed as a nontheistic religion antagonistic to traditional religion." It's trying to define one of two non-overlapping categories in terms of the other.

    Although I probably should have just answered you with a yadda yadda yadda and been done with it for all the good it will do. :)

    Parent

    You can't trust nobody (1.00 / 0) (#112)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:17:47 PM EST
    Actually it is right out of the AOL dictionary.

    Who knew they were Right Wingers??

    As for where the word "the secularists"" comes from, I invite you to read this thread.

    Parent

    AOL Time Warner (none / 0) (#123)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:58:23 PM EST
    You can't trust nobody

    Hey, if you can't trust the world's largest corporate media hegemon to give you the straight goods on a politically divisive issue who can you trust?

    Parent

    Alien (1.00 / 0) (#127)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:18:37 PM EST
    Do you have any other fav consporacies??

    Parent
    Lots (5.00 / 1) (#146)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 10:25:27 PM EST
    And all of them have Republicans as a common theme strangely enough.

    Parent
    How many members of (none / 0) (#105)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:22:03 PM EST
    your "Christian" base have ever defended Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish etc rights to a fair hearing, ppj?

    Parent
    Jondee (1.00 / 0) (#115)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:32:16 PM EST
    My "Christian" base??? Didn't know I had one. Wonder what type of Congressman I will make...;-)

    Well, the Quakers did a bang up job on slavery...

    But really, what is the meaning of your question? Are saying that this country, founded on rights given by God rather than man, doesn't defend the rights of the various groups??

    Jondee. You continually play the blame game. It is 2007, not 1957, or 1967....Don't you think it is time for you to come into the 21st century??

    Parent

    What do you think (none / 0) (#107)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:32:52 PM EST
    the MCA is for? Heh.

    Parent
    Forget bible study, Republicult Theofascism Kills (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:10:02 PM EST
    Also via Digby, the Testimony of Dr. Richard Carmona, ex Surgeon General under the Republicult administration. He describes the religious persecution of partsan faith police inflicted on the Surgeon General's office.

    The history of sectarian roles in the inquisition  is fascinating. (I'm interested.) For electing a leader today, a discussion I want to have more is about how Republicult theofascism continues to suffocate science, withhold medicine from the sick, and just plain condemn to suffering and death people the cult doesn't like.

    (Not saying don't discuss what you want, just that as an ordinary schmuck voter, I'm sick of my choices for leadership having a contest to see who can thump his or her bible the hardest. Jeez Louise, I'd rather vote for Albert the Teenaged Athiest.)

    Ellie (none / 0) (#116)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:35:42 PM EST
    withhold medicine from the sick

    Just in case you were in another dimension a while back, it was Bush who signed the Medicare RX Insurance plan....

    Millions of the elderly can now get their medicene and still buy food and pay their utilities...

    BTW - The plan as opposed by the Demos, most notably Kennedy.

    Parent

    Please stay on topic (none / 0) (#130)
    by Jeralyn on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:27:33 PM EST
    it's religion.

    Parent
    Carmona's persecution by religious croneyism (none / 0) (#147)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 10:26:00 PM EST
    The link above to the ex Surgeon General's testimony establishes a well documented pattern of this administration withholding health resources that don't flatter the pet religious beliefs of the party in power.

    This is patently unfair to every man woman and child. Disease doesn't strike in a partisan manner and people should not be deprived of up to date, top notch health and health related information because the Republicult is inappropriately stuffing yet another office with religious crazies..

    Parent

    "Classic Christian theology" (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:09:05 PM EST
    What the heck is that? I guess he means Eastern Rite Christianity:

    The Eastern Orthodox Church (including Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, etc.) refers to the single, theologically unified, multinational Christian community that views itself as:

    • The historical, unbroken continuation of the original Christian communities established by Jesus Christ and the Twelve Apostles, having maintained unbroken the link between its clergy and the Apostles by means of Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition.

    • The ecclesial communion which has never fallen into error nor deviated from the beliefs and traditions of the original Christian body, but rather has gone to great lengths to preserve them for future generations. All theological concepts, all explanations and expansions are compared to and validated by the original core beliefs; no deviation is allowed.

    • The Christian body which most closely adheres to the canons of the first seven ecumenical councils held between the 4th and the 8th centuries.



    The Bush Crusade (5.00 / 0) (#119)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:41:56 PM EST
    George W. Bush plumbed the deepest place in himself, looking for a simple expression of what the assaults of September 11 required. It was his role to lead the nation, and the very world. The President, at a moment of crisis, defines the communal response. A few days after the assault, George W. Bush did this. Speaking spontaneously, without the aid of advisers or speechwriters, he put a word on the new American purpose that both shaped it and gave it meaning. "This crusade," he said, "this war on terrorism."
    ...
    Crusade. I remember a momentary feeling of vertigo at the President's use of that word, the outrageous ineptitude of it. The vertigo lifted, and what I felt then was fear, sensing not ineptitude but exactitude. My thoughts went to the elusive Osama bin Laden, how pleased he must have been, Bush already reading from his script. I am a Roman Catholic with a feeling for history, and strong regrets, therefore, over what went wrong in my own tradition once the Crusades were launched.

    The same dynamic--war against an enemy outside leading to war against an enemy inside--can be seen at work today.
    ...
    A cosmic moral-religious battle justifies, equally, risks of world-historic proportioned disaster, since the ultimate outcome of such a conflict is to be measured not by actual consequences on this earth but by the earth-transcending will of God. Our war on terrorism, before it is anything else, is thus an imagined conflict, taking place primarily in a mythic realm beyond history.

    In waging such a "war," the enemy is to be engaged everywhere and nowhere, not just because the actual nihilists who threaten the social order are faceless and deracinated but because each fanatical suicide-bomber is only an instance of the transcendent enemy--and so the other face of us. Each terrorist is, in effect, a sacrament of the larger reality, which is "terrorism." Instead of perceiving unconnected centers of inhuman violence--tribal warlords, Mafia chieftains, nationalist fighters, xenophobic Luddites--President Bush projects the grandest and most interlocking strategies of conspiracy, belief and organization. By the canonization of the war on terrorism, petty nihilists are elevated to the status of world-historic warriors, exactly the fate they might have wished for. This is why the conflict readily bleeds from one locus to another--Afghanistan then, Iraq now, Iran or some other land of evil soon--and why, for that matter, the targeted enemies are entirely interchangeable--here Osama bin Laden, there Saddam Hussein, here the leader of Iran, there of North Korea. They are all essentially one enemy--one "axis"--despite their differences from one another, or even hatred of one another.
    ...
    "The past is never dead," William Faulkner said. "It isn't even past."



    From the post (1.00 / 0) (#3)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:14:18 PM EST
    though she described herself as less sure of the doctrine that being a Christian is the only way to salvation."

    If she doesn't believe that, then Thomas is correct.

    He is also correct when he says she is entittled to whatever she wants to believe.

    That has nothing to do with the Inquisition, or any other historical facts regarding any religion and any attempt to connect the Inquisition with modern day Christanity is a real stretch, especially on the Protestant side.

    How her comments play in Peoria is a different subject, just as Romney's Mormon faith is.

    I would hope neither detracts to whatever the candidate wants to say about what they will do if elected.

    Excuse me (5.00 / 3) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:18:14 PM EST
    It has everything to do with the Inquisition.

    Christianity, the "classical" version, is contained in the Nicene Creed. the relevant portion that Thomas does NOT believe in is this:

    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

    In "classical" Christian theology, Cal Thomas is a heretic who will burn in hell.  

    Parent

    Classical? (none / 0) (#7)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:31:40 PM EST
    If you define Classical as synonymous with Catholic, then, of course, you are correct. But, others might have different interpretations. Protestants would put Martin Luther under the heading of Classical. Others think Classical refers to is a strict literal reading of the bible, as in Jonah REALLY was swallowed by a whale. This interpretation has nothing to do with religious or church affiliation.

    Parent
    Interestingly (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:52:35 PM EST
    it seems to me that the One and Original and self proclaimed Christian Church, the one that Peter, Jesus's Rock, founded, would be the best and well, only, candidate for "classical" Christianity.

    The very words PROTESTANTISM, REFORMATION and the like make the point nicely.

    But have it your way.

    The Catholic Church is NOT "classical" Christian theology.

    Riiiight.

    Parent

    I didn't make a preference one way or another (none / 0) (#11)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:56:59 PM EST
    Merely pointing out that language is flexible. It is always the case that it one makes oneself the sole arbitrator and decider on the meanings of terms one will always have sole possession of Truth. That is why you are always correct, BTD.

    Parent
    Do you know (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:58:05 PM EST
    what the word "Catholic" means?

    Parent
    What definition would you like? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:02:56 PM EST
    Let me save you the trouble (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:10:57 PM EST
    it means "universal." (as in "UNIVERSAL CHURCH")

    Parent
    All right (none / 0) (#32)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:24:50 PM EST
    You are correct. Now do with that definition as you please.

    Parent
    That is the church's ::self:: definition, yes (none / 0) (#63)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:15:08 PM EST
    Classic tactic to set terms of debate: try to make non-believers deny it and prove them wrong.

    Parent
    Edger (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:56:51 PM EST
    I wouldn't think non-believers would care one way or the other.

    Parent
    Well it's like this, ppj (none / 0) (#106)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:31:19 PM EST
    "____"!!

    Parent
    edger (1.00 / 1) (#128)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:21:40 PM EST
    Come on edger...

    If you don't believe, why would you care???

    Seems kinda like looking for a complaint to make...

    Parent

    Nice Try (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by squeaky on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:24:37 PM EST
    If you don't believe, why would you care???

    The same can be said for:

    If you do believe why would you care.

    Parent

    Squeaky (1.00 / 1) (#133)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:37:08 PM EST
    No, if you believe it is also logical to assume that the Pope is wrong in your opinion.

    If you don't, why would you care??

    Parent

    I suppose (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:05:08 PM EST
    some say black is white.

    Carry on Peaches.

    Pointless contrarianism has its place too one supposes.

    Parent

    Let me be clear (5.00 / 2) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:10:00 PM EST
    I am not a beleiver in "classical" anything when it comes to Christianity.

    But if you are going to invoke the concept, the "classical" Christian theology is indisputedly Catholicism.

    It was the only Christian religion for 1500 years.  

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#28)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:21:07 PM EST
    You're right.

    Carry one.

    Parent

    Yes, carry on (none / 0) (#26)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:19:39 PM EST
    I realized your point and Thomas is not my cup of tea either. I think he is even deserving of much derision and ridicule as I do all fundamentalists/foundationalists.

    Your ridicule of him was certainly justifiable, but it required your interpretation of the word "classical," which was different from his interpretation. You think his interpretation is wrong and I, Peaches, being the contrarian, made the point only to maintain the flexibility of the language and preserve Classical for us all who are not catholic, nor whom were raised catholic and think the Gospels fit perfectly fine under the heading of Classical without having to defer to a church that we have had little or no contact with although they do have as much right as I, Thomas or anyone else to interpret the Gospels in whatever way they wish.

    But, excuse my interlude and carry on with your language as before.

    Parent

    You are flexible regarding (none / 0) (#30)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:22:29 PM EST
    the meaning of the word "flexible."

    Parent
    And, Your are NOT flexible with flexible (none / 0) (#33)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:29:59 PM EST
    Flexible, like all the words in your vocabulary, has only one True definition and those who don't agree upon your definitions are wrong. I accept how things are in BTD land and that is why I rarely come here except to be the contrarian.

    Parent
    Harumph! (none / 0) (#95)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:48:02 PM EST
    We, the followers of James the Just, brother of Jesus are the true classics,  the rest of you guys have been wrong, ever since you started listening to that crazy old coot Saul. the followers of James the Just, brother of Jesus are the classics,  the rest of you guys have been wrong, ever since you started listening to that crazy old coot, Saul and stopped following the Torah.

    But we can tell you a thing or two about what happens when your rivals get hold of the powers of government...



    Parent

    I see a lot of source material (none / 0) (#96)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:54:10 PM EST
    awaiting Dan Brown and his imitators.  

    Parent
    Semi OT (none / 0) (#102)
    by Molly Bloom on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:18:57 PM EST
    But since we are on the subject of which brand name Christian sect is correct, I reccomend the following books by Bart Ehrmann

    Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why

    and

    The Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew

    Links here and here.

    Suffice to say, the Professor is not a bibical literalist and asks a very good question- which words are the words of God and which are mistakes and "corrections?"

    (Not sure how my previous post got so screwed, hopefully my meaning was clear)



    Parent

    Which brand name Christian sect is correct? (none / 0) (#135)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:40:17 PM EST
    If any.

    Zeitgeist: Part 1 - Greatest story ever told (starts 15 mins into the video)

    Parent

    Peaches (1.00 / 0) (#51)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:59:28 PM EST
    But if he does not do that he can't beat up on Thomas, and thus has no post.

    Parent
    True enough (none / 0) (#56)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:03:00 PM EST
    But unfortunately for you and Peaches, what I wrote was exactly correct.

    Parent
    BTD (1.00 / 0) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:13:20 PM EST
    The following is from Oculus' link.

    This document contains pointers to internet accessible literature related to Classical Christianity (a term coined by C.S. Lewis to describe a theology which affirms the importance of a transforming faith in Christ as God and Savior)

    Now, should I believe that noted expert on Christian theology, Big Tent Democrat, or C.S. Lewis..

    sigh

    decisions decisions

    Parent

    How about the Pope? (none / 0) (#64)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:16:21 PM EST
    See my latest post.

    Parent
    The Pope isn't buying the (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:37:27 PM EST
    "all boats going to the same shore" theory.  Not too surprising.  

    Parent
    I refer you to my first comment (1.00 / 0) (#98)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:02:08 PM EST
    though she described herself as less sure of the doctrine that being a Christian is the only way to salvation."

    If she doesn't believe that, then Thomas is correct.

    He is also correct when he says she is entittled to whatever she wants to believe.

    That has nothing to do with the Inquisition, or any other historical facts regarding any religion and any attempt to connect the Inquisition with modern day Christanity is a real stretch, especially on the Protestant side.

    How her comments play in Peoria is a different subject, just as Romney's Mormon faith is.

    I would hope neither detracts to whatever the candidate wants to say about what they will do if elected.

    Parent

    Here's some information (none / 0) (#59)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:07:07 PM EST
    on the history of the Nicene Creed.  Pretty complicated--what is the position of the Holy Spirit?  Lots of disagreement, even after the adoption of the Nicene Creed.  I can envision Hillary Clinton in confirmation class.

    http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Nicene_Intro.htm

    Parent

    ROFLOL (none / 0) (#76)
    by Strick on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:38:35 PM EST
    It has everything to do with the Inquisition.

    Er, my denomination believes in one holy catholic church and we're apostolic but we're not Catholics with a captial "C".  The one catholic church is the body of believers, not a denomination.  I imagine Cal believes in pretty much the same things, assuming he's a Protestant.

    The thing is, comparing someone who disagrees with another Christian over a point of doctrine to the Spanish Inquisition is sort of like comparing an American politician to Hitler.  It's absurd unless that person is proposing torture to get heretical confessions followed by burning at the stake, the image the person making the comparison is trying to mentally dredge up.  Pure inflamatory rhetoric.  

    Does anyone really believe that Cal is proposing torture or the stake for Hillary?  Even (assuming Protestants did that sort of thing) excommunication?  CAl might propose at least the torture thing for Bill, but, hey, Bill's a Baptist and that has nothing to do with his religion.

    Since comparing someone to the Spanish Inquisition is the equivalent of comparing someone to Hilter, I say that anyone making the claim automatically loses any argument, since they apparently don't have anything more rational and constructive to say.

    Parent

    strick (1.00 / 0) (#99)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:05:23 PM EST
    Gosh..... that is funny....and right...

    Parent
    Ridiculous (none / 0) (#141)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:53:26 PM EST
    Talk to the Pope is if yopu like.

    I have never seen this amount of ignorance on a simple subject in one thread in a long time.

    Parent

    Look (none / 0) (#156)
    by Strick on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 07:26:37 AM EST
    Big Tent, supposed I'm a modern Christian concerned about your immortal soul over one your religious beliefs.  What's the big deal?  We won't know which of us is right until we're in the hereafter, and the odds are we're both wrong about something and if we're wise, we've been praying for forgiveness for our errors and doing the best we can.

    More to the point, what exactly is the downside of my belief?  You can shake it off, you're a big guy.  Either way, it's God's decision who's saved, not mine, no matter what I think.  Both of us should move on and not get too heated about it.

    The Spanish Inquisition was completely different.  It was less about heaven than creating hell here on Earth.  When they decided your beliefs were wrong, they burned you at the stake.  Some how that seems a bit more serious a problem than my mentioning to you that I think you're wrong on an issue.

    As for Cal, you know he wasn't going to vote for Hillary anyway.  This isn't the reason.  And if you look down, you'll see I disagree with his assessment of her Christianity.  The folks he's probably talking to will probably agree with him instead of me, but, hey, they weren't going to vote for Hillary before this either, so it's just not that important.  

    You can call Cal on his inane comment with out comparing him to the Inquisition.  That's admitting you have an inadequate argument in my book.

    Parent

    Next you'll be telling us (none / 0) (#6)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:29:13 PM EST
    that Thomas ISNT (despicably) "using Christianity as an election tactic."

    Parent
    Jondee (1.00 / 0) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:02:54 PM EST
    I don't think Thomas is runnng. Hillary is the only politican defining beliefs.

    Not that others haven't, and won't.

    Parent

    I wonder if Cal has ever eaten lobster (none / 0) (#1)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:01:34 PM EST
    because, I mean, that violates the "classic theology" of my religion, and, you know, I can't trust anyone who doesn't subscribe to the strictest version of my particular sect.

    What if he loves Manischewitz? (none / 0) (#155)
    by kovie on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 06:11:07 AM EST
    Would that make up for it? ;-)

    Parent
    Mox nix... (none / 0) (#2)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:03:08 PM EST
    There's only one kind of Christian; and this is it.

    Send me a postcard from the Netherword, Bubbie.

    Hey, that's Benny talkin' not me.

    Doncha love them fundies.

    Benny has to worry about this expose ... (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:49:31 PM EST
    "The Devil Wears Prada"

    The Pope's red Prada shoes and couture cassocks aside, people have a constitutional right to a secular government and representation that promises to uphold that.

    If we're electing a pope or a national reverend, at the very least I want a deck of cigs out of the deal so I can get a crony gig sending up the white smoke after the ballot count.

    Also, I want churches to be taxed. This level of rights-shredding and galumphing onto congressional floors is something I and the vast majority did not explicitly sign on to, yet we're being held under its grip.

    It's beyond unfair.

    Parent

    I don't suppose you really support (none / 0) (#50)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:59:24 PM EST
    the Coast Guard retiring its boats to faith-based groups either, eh?

    Parent
    Strangely enough ... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:24:47 PM EST
    Offline, I've worked with many multi-faith efforts through NGOs, and there's a huge difference between the multi hyphenated religio-politico-corporate moneysucker and people of various belief systems pitching in to help people in need.

    Boats back to the community: I'm all for it providing there's not a moral clause attached, or if it's community property dispensed to cronies or used by religious cronies for recruitment.

    I don't want a state religion.

    Parent

    These particular boats were sold by the (none / 0) (#72)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:36:06 PM EST
    faith-based recipients.  Article recently in the NY Times.  One boat is now being used for commercial tourism in San Francisco Bay.  

    Parent
    I didn't click over for the article ... (none / 0) (#152)
    by Ellie on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 11:18:55 PM EST
    ... before responding, but with really great community programs so starved of resources they can barely keep the lights on, it's wearying tracking the latest Bush era example of public resources being chop shopped to line yet another crony pocket.

    Not sure what we could have done with boats, though. :-)

    Parent

    First, the o.k. to return to the Latin Mass; (none / 0) (#8)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:42:23 PM EST
    then this.  

    Parent
    Query: why must the reader go via Digby, to (none / 0) (#10)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:56:36 PM EST
    the Sacramento Bee to read Cal Thomas's thoughts on Hillary Clinton's religious beliefs?  SacBee is directly accessible on the Internet.  

    It is common (none / 0) (#16)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:03:59 PM EST
    in the Internets to link to folks who pointed out the piece you are writing about. I also linked to Mr. Thomas' piece.

    Parent
    Those pesky unwritten rules again. (none / 0) (#24)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:17:10 PM EST
    Think of it ... (none / 0) (#58)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:06:36 PM EST
    ... as an homage to the blog you were made aware of the article on.

    Not so much an 'unwritten rule' as a cited reference. Just like one would site Nexis/Nexis or Northwestern Court Reporter even tho they didn't write the decision or publish it originally.

    And if that doesn't work, think of it as a tip o' the hat to the folks who found the gem amongst dross.

    Parent

    I consider this tradition a waste of the reader's (none / 0) (#60)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:09:45 PM EST
    time.  Maybe a few footnotes, but just spit it out first.  

    Parent
    I'm sorry you feel that way (none / 0) (#90)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:23:05 PM EST
    When you hover over a link you can see the site referred to in your status bar at the bottom right of your browser.

    Most ethical bloggers will link to the site where they discovered the article and the site where the original source can be found. As was done in this case.

    e.g. If I see a TL post about a Supreme Court ruling that I didn't/wouldn't discover on my own, I link to TL AND the article.

    Another example would be that the blog you're linking to has an analysis that is not readily apparent, so I would link to the blog instead of the article (said blog already includes the link, but the analysis is the key point.)

    Parent

    Can you tell I'm a newspaper reader (none / 0) (#91)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:28:35 PM EST
    at heart?

    Parent
    Classical Christianity (none / 0) (#13)
    by Al on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 03:58:27 PM EST
    should be what Jesus preached. It's pretty clearly laid out in the sermon on the mount. Everything else, including the Catholic Church, is politics.

    You went and translated (none / 0) (#20)
    by andgarden on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:10:11 PM EST
    the original sermon yourself, did you?

    Parent
    Well (5.00 / 2) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:12:03 PM EST
    You assume he is not referring to the oral version in Aramaic.

    Parent
    Huh (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:03:50 PM EST
    Digby points out what we should all know by now; the Radical Religious Right is intolerant of religious beliefs not in lockstep with their own:
    just like some other radicals I know...

    The difference (none / 0) (#25)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:18:40 PM EST
    is, the R.R has been given entre into the mainstream and "the national stage."

    Parent
    right on suo (none / 0) (#29)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:21:13 PM EST
    Joseph Smith was tarred and feathered for his beliefs and labeled a heretic, hasn't stopped 12.5 million from believing his doctrines.  Hinduism is the oldest, starting in 1500 BCE.  Of course Christ, like Joseph Smith was labeled a heretic and he came some 1500 years after Hinduism.  

    And the pope reissued a second ecumenical recently declaring catholics as the one true religion.  

    Some muslims are willing to martyr themselves and murder a few along the way to achieve salvation.

    Benny Hinn talks to god on a regular basis and Pat Robertson can do 1500 push ups.

    To hell with democracy as a world platform, what I would love to see it theocracy outlawed and freedom to practice any religion in any country without any government influence and that includes - under god.............

    Parent

    Don't smear (none / 0) (#31)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:23:52 PM EST
    Romney like that.

    Parent
    Even if Joseph Smith (none / 0) (#34)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:30:39 PM EST
    would be the modern day David Koresh?  Although there is no documentation citing any visits from Moroni to Koresh and Smith did not stockpile weapons......

    Parent
    As I recall, the citizenry lynched (none / 0) (#39)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:38:42 PM EST
    Smith and his followers.  Yes, law enforcement let it happen, but still.

    Parent
    Not that i recall (none / 0) (#44)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:45:30 PM EST
    He was ambushed in jail and shot several times before he jumped or was thrown out of a window.  During his tarring and feathering, his wife was threatened with rape and his child left outside who later died from exposure or most likely pneumonia making him a "martyr".....hmmmm

    Parent
    I'm referring to Nauvoo. (none / 0) (#49)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:54:48 PM EST
    I meant (none / 0) (#52)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:59:33 PM EST
    when Joseph died they made him a martyr not his kid, worded incorrectly.  

    JS was murdered in Carthage IL...

    Parent

    You got me. I was thinking Nauvoo. (none / 0) (#75)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:38:30 PM EST
    Carthage, however, is the county seat.  

    Parent
    I didn't. (none / 0) (#36)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:34:41 PM EST
    he was talking to me (none / 0) (#38)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:38:23 PM EST
    ref: Joseph Smith

    Parent
    Oh. OK then. (none / 0) (#41)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:40:56 PM EST
    This exchange reminds me of Get Shorty. (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:39:04 PM EST
    Only not as near as humorous (none / 0) (#161)
    by Jlvngstn on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:02:24 AM EST
    I was kidding (none / 0) (#42)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:41:15 PM EST
    I knew you were (none / 0) (#45)
    by Jlvngstn on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:46:00 PM EST
    hence the follow up...

    Parent
    SUO (none / 0) (#57)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:04:35 PM EST
    Nah... you're kidding me.

    Parent
    "Classical Christianity": (none / 0) (#23)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:16:21 PM EST
    phrase coined by C.S. Lewis:  

    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-books.html

    Sounds more like Martin Luther than the Papal doctrines Luther challenged.  

    But he was a heretic (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:21:07 PM EST
    as he became a High Anglican, never a Catholic.

    Sorry, but he can not define "classical" Christianity when he rejected the one and only Christian religion that existed for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

    It is to strip the word "classical" of all meaning.

    Parent

    Strip it of YOUR meaning (none / 0) (#35)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:33:00 PM EST
    Bad, Bad, NO-No in BTD land.

    Parent
    You entirely miss the point (none / 0) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:40:12 PM EST
    For whatever reason, you do not accept that the religion that WAS Christianity for the first 1500 years of Christianity is "classical" Christian theology. If the concept is to have any meaning, how could it be otherwise?

    It seems a silly point for you to make.

    Let's face it, what Thomas MAY have meant is the common precepts of all Christian religions may include that which he is arguing for. Ande it may be so.

    But it is not "classical" Christian theology that he ascribes to.

    For the obvious reasons I point out.

    Is it fair to argue that the Anglican Church is classical Christian theology when it sprang froma break with the Catholic Church and the Pope on Henry VIII's discarding of his marriage with Catherine of Aragon?

    Puhleeeaze. Now you argue for no reason whatsoever.  

    Parent

    BTD (1.00 / 0) (#71)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:34:24 PM EST
    The point is not what is classical.

    The point is that by saying what she did, Hillary admits doubting the central tenet of all christian churches.

    Your argument over "classical" is just a cover for that.

    Parent

    I say burn her. (5.00 / 1) (#79)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:40:28 PM EST
    Suffereth not a left wing witch to live, eh Jim?

    What a surprise that you're backing up fellow "social liberal" Thomas. Im shocked, shocked I tell you.

    Parent

    Jondee (1.00 / 0) (#101)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:16:44 PM EST
    Yes, when Thomas says:

    Clinton said she believed in the resurrection of Jesus, though she described herself as less sure of the doctrine that being a Christian is the only way to salvation.

    Clinton is entitled to whatever faith she wants to practice, but when she uses it as an election tactic, she should not be allowed to alter classic Christian theology.

    I find him very correct.

    Do you disagree? Should she be allowed to alter it?

    Parent

    Well (1.00 / 0) (#108)
    by Strick on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:33:46 PM EST
    There is the point that Hillary really didn't change any theology.  She's basically professing beliefs, and a doubt, that are pretty common among "liberal" (that is, liberal in the theological sense) Christians.  

    Those particular beliefs are pretty common among Methodists and their cousins Episcopalians and Anglicans.  Other liberal denominations, too.

    If this were really an accommodation Hillary was making to soften the reactions of non-Christians to her beliefs, I'd agree with Cal.  Since it's a pretty common set of beliefs among other Christians like Hillary, Cal's a little off base on the the religions for politics criticism.  

    That doesn't mean there aren't a lot of Christians who would think anyone shares Hillary's beliefs aren't really Christians, just like Cal, either.  But disagreeing with a theological point and thinking someone is not "saved" is not harkening back to the Inquisition.  That less about heaven or hell and more about creating a hell on Earth.  YMMV

    Parent

    strick (none / 0) (#157)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:04:24 AM EST
    Gee, just when we were getting along so well. ;-)

    If this were really an accommodation Hillary was making to soften the reactions of non-Christians to her beliefs, I'd agree with Cal.

    She is running for President. She knows she will get almost zero support from the Religious Right so she is simply trying to pick up everything from the others that she can.

    Alter?? My bad.

    Big Tent is merely trying to defend Hillary's position with a strawman attack on Thomas. Who, btw, has much to be wrong about. This he isn't.

    Parent

    But Alter is the key word (none / 0) (#178)
    by Strick on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 04:19:23 PM EST
    Sorry, I think Cal's wrong on this one.  Hillary didn't "alter" anything.  She's simply expressing beliefs that other Christians share, including not a few of Hillary's fellow Methodists.  The line of reasoning goes back nearly a century.  I'd be surprised if she had felt strongly the other way, but not at this.

    If this were somehow new or unique to her, I'd see Cal's point about " altering classical Christianity".  Since neither is true, I'm inclined to believe she actually believes what she says.  YMMV

    Parent

    Isn't the proper procedure to (none / 0) (#83)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:54:03 PM EST
    first see if she sinks?

    Parent
    No need to go that far. (none / 0) (#85)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:00:47 PM EST
    Just dress her up like one.

    Parent
    Indeed (none / 0) (#148)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 10:26:59 PM EST
    What central tenet of Christianity is it that Hillary is doubting that Thomas is not clearly violating?

    As I have staed numerous times now, Thomas' rejection of Catholicism brands him a heretic in the eyes of the Church that Jesus founded, according to Scripture:

    Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, THAT THOU ART PETER, AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    Enough of this Jim. Cal Thomas liveth by the Scripture, then shalle he burneth in hell by the Scripture.

    Parent

    I see your point (none / 0) (#46)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:46:34 PM EST
    As usual I disagree and think you are silly because you can only look at the world through the lense of BTD and not your interlocutor.

    The fact that the Catholic church existed for 1500 years has nothing to do with the meaning of the word Classical for many people in the world and also nothing to do with Classical Christian Church for many Christians. For you, raised in a Catholic culture, It is impossible to accept this.

    The Catholic church was not stagnant for 1500 years. Many heretics who rejected the church did so because of their beliefs that the Catholic church was no longer True to the Classical beliefs it was founded upon.

    Two different views, two different definitions of a word, two different truths. I see two rights. You see a Right and a wrong. That is the only difference and for me that make you ridiculous and not worth taking serious.

    Parent

    A Catholic culture (none / 0) (#54)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:01:37 PM EST
    is not where I learned that the Reformation occurred in the 1500s.

    Parent
    Peaches (none / 0) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:24:55 PM EST
    I wonder if it was the eastern or western branch that is classical....

    By the fourth century CE, church authority in the Christian movement had become concentrated in five bishops or patriarchs. They were located in the main Christian centers: Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome. The Bishop of Rome was considered the first among equals. With the rise of Islam, the influence of church leaders in Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem was severely reduced. Over time, the two power centers of Christianity, centered in Constantinople in the East and Rome in the West, drifted apart. They developed divergent paths in the areas of creeds, beliefs, practices, liturgy, the use of icons, organizational structure, etc. A formal split finally came in 1054 CE.


    Parent
    Let us not forget the Swedish (none / 0) (#94)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:44:27 PM EST
    Lutherans, who also claim direct Apostolic succession:

    Some Churches within the historic episcopate believe the Church of Sweden and the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland[12] have maintained apostolic succession, despite their Lutheranism. This is a view that is not held by the Roman Catholic Church[13] nor by all of Orthodoxy.



    Parent
    Yes, we all get that Thomas (none / 0) (#48)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:50:23 PM EST
    is no Albertus Magnus.

    After all the hair splitting is done, your last strand is about a hairs breadth away from Peaches', BTD.

    Parent

    I thought the point an easy one (none / 0) (#53)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:00:35 PM EST
    But have it your way.

    What is peaches' point in your view?

    Parent

    Obviously, (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:36:24 PM EST
    he's making the point that the debate centering around what constitutes the essence of "classical" Christianity is an old one and has been fueled by alot of presumption on all sides right up to the immediate present, and that everyone in the debates always "knows" what constitutes classical doctrine (just not enough to act on it IMO).

    Parent
    That is simply incorrect (none / 0) (#138)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:50:37 PM EST
    There was the Schism I suppose of East and West but I am sure that is NOT what Peaches is referencing.

    Parent
    Whatever (none / 0) (#173)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:56:05 AM EST
    Simply whatever.

    Parent
    Here's a bit of Wiki. (none / 0) (#37)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:37:01 PM EST
    Apparently Lewis incorporated some oh-so-Catholic ideas into his theology.  [I especially like the part about the hymns, BTW.]

    A committed Anglican, Lewis upheld a largely orthodox Anglican theology, though in his apologetic writings, he made an effort to avoid espousing any one denomination. In his later writings, some believe he proposed ideas such as purification of venial sins after death in purgatory (The Great Divorce) and mortal sin (The Screwtape Letters), which are generally considered to be Catholic teachings. Regardless, Lewis considered himself an entirely orthodox Anglican to the end of his life, reflecting that he had initially attended church only to receive communion and had been repelled by the hymns and the poor quality of the sermons.

    [Emphasis added.]

    Parent

    An I support the troops moment. (none / 0) (#43)
    by Fritz on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 04:45:09 PM EST
    I wish Democrats would be honest and drop the pandering towards religion.  It is like I support the troops but not the mission.  Same for Christianity, I support Jesus but not his mission.  

    Swinging at the low hanging fruit (5.00 / 2) (#66)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:21:44 PM EST
    I wish Democrats would be honest and drop the pandering towards religion.
    [laugh, choke, sputter, cough] excuuuuuse me? Repubs are the ones constantly pandering to alleged christains like falwell, robertson, and roberts.

    It is like I support the troops but not the mission.  Same for Christianity, I support Jesus but not his mission.
    Jesus preached love, there is no love in 'islam is evil', 'you're going to hell', 'god hates gays', or even the slightly more innocuous 'jesus talks to me and told me to tell you to send money to me.'

    I'm thinkin' if god tells you he's on your side, you ain't been listening to God or your humanity.

    Of course, I could be wrong, in which case I will choose hell for eternity rather than be cooped up with a bunch of violent, sanctimonious hypocrites.

    Parent

    Sailor (1.00 / 0) (#70)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:28:53 PM EST
    Repubs are the ones constantly pandering to alleged christains like falwell, robertson, and roberts

    So Hillary didn't say what she said??

    How many black churches did Algore visit...?? Clinton/Bill? Clinton/Hillary? etc.....

    They ALL do it, Sailor, just different bases.

    Parent

    They're only black (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by jondee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:12:26 PM EST
    because your base tried to bomb and burn them all in the sixties.

    Parent
    Now Jondee, you know better ... (5.00 / 2) (#92)
    by Sailor on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:32:29 PM EST
    ... those folks are still burning churches in the 70's, 80's 90's and in this millennium. But they ain't terrerists, they's christians.

    Just like the terrorists that bomb abortion clinics and federal buildings in OK city.

    but ppj ALWAYS has an excuse, i.e. he's not one of their base, he's just a poor good ol' boy who supports torture, the taliban, and saddam.

    Parent

    Amazing (1.00 / 1) (#103)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:19:55 PM EST
    You claim that only Repubs have played the religion card and when I note that Demos have done it also, Jondee makes a racist attack.

    Now what does your claim have to do with the other?

    Nothing.

    Parent

    incorrect (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by Sailor on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:17:23 AM EST
    You claim that only Repubs have played the religion card
    No, I didn't.

    I pointed out that republicans pander to the worst, most vile, hateful religious extremists in America.

    Parent

    Do you support Dem candidates (none / 0) (#61)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:12:45 PM EST
    briefly bearing arms for the purposes of the campaign photo op?

    Parent
    oculus (1.00 / 0) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:21:33 PM EST
    No.  A Demo candidate taught them better than that in 1988....

    Parent
    My question was addressed to Fritz. (none / 0) (#80)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:41:09 PM EST
    oculus (1.00 / 1) (#104)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 07:21:23 PM EST
    Nobody is keeping him from answering.

    (This isn't a newspaper.)

    ;-)

    Parent

    Codpieces. (none / 0) (#69)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:26:32 PM EST
    Eh? (none / 0) (#81)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:41:52 PM EST
    Bearing arms for campaign photo ops (none / 0) (#82)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:48:40 PM EST
    Wearing a codpiece for photo op.

    Wingnuts compensating. They're such cute little things.

    Parent

    Have to check that out tonight. (none / 0) (#84)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 05:55:23 PM EST
    Hmmm? (none / 0) (#86)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 06:01:37 PM EST
    edger (none / 0) (#132)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:34:44 PM EST
    I see you know nothing about flight gear..

    Parent
    History (none / 0) (#109)
    by jarober on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:05:54 PM EST
    Taking a quick walk through history, we find that the Christian wars of religion ended in 1648.  Beyond that point, Western war has always been about secular power (and was usually about secular power before that point as well).  

    For the left though, the Inquisition is always a convenient thing to bring up - never mind that left ideology (Communism), and Fascist ideology (Nazism) killed hundreds of millions more people.

    But hey - I bet those Maoists meant well.

    Mmmmmm. (none / 0) (#110)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:09:22 PM EST
    Last book you read was in 1648? Try a longer walk through history next time. Maybe 30 or 40 years of walking. Then report back.

    Parent
    Edger (1.00 / 1) (#117)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:39:07 PM EST
    Leaving aside the attempts of the Moslems to destroy Israel, and Israel defending itself, what religious wars happened after 1648???

    Parent
    Edger (1.00 / 1) (#118)
    by jimakaPPJ on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:39:57 PM EST
    I also exclude all Moslem on Moslem wars....

    Parent
    DA (1.00 / 1) (#163)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:32:45 AM EST
    Good point. Learned something.

    Kinda proves my point that the radcial Moslems are doing the same.

    But it wasn't a religious war based on religious beliefs by both sides, just as the WOT isn't.

    Parent

    DA (1.00 / 1) (#177)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 02:55:12 PM EST
    Last time I check Boykin isn't the Pres or running the country.

    I mean if you are right, and if he is... have we launched yet????

    Really. Get serious.

    Parent

    Sikhs vs Hindus (none / 0) (#167)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:46:50 AM EST
    Hindus vs Moslems in India. Or, didnt Hannity, Rush or Fox ever discuss that?

    Parent
    Right on point jarober... (none / 0) (#111)
    by Slado on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:16:49 PM EST
    The wiping out of religion by goverment claimed many more lives in the last 200 years then any religion could ever hope to but lets not think about that.

    Let's roll the clock back 400 years to make our point.

    Parent

    Heh. (none / 0) (#114)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:25:31 PM EST
    Sure.  Good point.

    Parent
    So... (1.00 / 1) (#126)
    by jarober on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:10:21 PM EST
    So photos of Bush praying are equivalent to the 30 years war?  Edger - do you even know where the 30 years war was fought, what the issues were, and what famous treaty brought it to a close?

    Do you really believe that a man showing private faith is equivalent to what happened during the wars of religion?

    Do you understand that the Communists killed hundreds of millions more than Torquemada ever dreamed of killing?

    Parent

    Come on Edgar (none / 0) (#120)
    by Slado on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:47:35 PM EST
    While quite amusing Iraq is not a religous war on our side.

    It is on the side of the Terrorists but we're not supposed to talk abot that.

    Jihad

    Parent

    Slado (none / 0) (#121)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:50:39 PM EST
    Iraq is not on Bush's side.

    Parent
    The point... (1.00 / 1) (#134)
    by jarober on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:39:50 PM EST
    The point, Edger, is that The Iraq war is not being fought by the US for religious reasons.  The jihadists, on the other hand, are explicitly fighting for religious reasons.  But as Slado says above, the left does not want to face up to that - and I think a large part of the reason is that the left has no understanding of religious motivations or history.  When - like Edger - you equate prayer with Jihad, there's a huge gap in understanding.

    Parent
    Fighting for religious reasons (none / 0) (#137)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:50:28 PM EST
    Religious reasons:
       The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.

        I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy.

        The situation was like a crocodile meeting a helpless child, powerless except for his screams. Does the crocodile understand a conversation that doesn't include a weapon? And the whole world saw and heard but it didn't respond.

        In those difficult moments many hard-to-describe ideas bubbled in my soul, but in the end they produced an intense feeling of rejection of tyranny, and gave birth to a strong resolve to punish the oppressors.

        And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

    More religious reasons: "Ancient History": U.S. Conduct in the Middle East Since World War II and the Folly Of Intervention

    Parent
    I guess they (none / 0) (#140)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:51:30 PM EST
    must be "right to lifers"....

    Parent
    Sorry... I meant (none / 0) (#142)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:56:58 PM EST
    Not so much (1.00 / 1) (#143)
    by jarober on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 10:07:29 PM EST
    You really think that the US sent Marines to Lebanon in 1982 as part of a Crusade?

    Edger, you simply have no idea how the world works.

    Parent

    Well, james (none / 0) (#150)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 10:43:40 PM EST
    If I "believed" that I would have said so. Rather than debunking your delusions that "The jihadists, on the other hand, are explicitly fighting for religious reasons."

    But you see, unlike you, I prefer facing reality over being delusional.

    Was there any other comprehension assistance you needed this evening?

    Parent

    Nor is it (none / 0) (#122)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:53:21 PM EST
    Wow what a site (1.00 / 1) (#125)
    by Slado on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:05:43 PM EST
    The link that made excuses for North Korea was quite amusing.

    Parent
    Excuses? (none / 0) (#131)
    by Edger on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:30:55 PM EST
    In this link?

    To paraphrase yourself, The linked article is not excuses, it is history.

    Parent

    Yep that's it... (1.00 / 1) (#174)
    by Slado on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:17:20 PM EST
    History is a funny thing.   It is factual but like many facts can be twisted to form to one's own view.

    If one wants to consider NK's removal from the world stage as persecution rather then willingful withdrawl by a dictatorship then the facts can't proove you wrong can they.

    Parent

    Sure Slado. (none / 0) (#175)
    by Edger on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:29:14 PM EST
    Provide some.

    I have.

    Parent

    In the meantime (none / 0) (#176)
    by Edger on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 02:17:04 PM EST
    if you have any specific dispute with any of the points and historical facts presented in the article about North Korea feel free to give us a point by point reasoned refutation, rather than just a blanket dismissal based on nothing more than you don't like what you read. If you read.

    This is your opportunity to earn some credibility for right wing reasoning abilities and give people real grounds to give you some credit, in other words.

    Parent

    Come on Edgar (1.00 / 1) (#179)
    by Slado on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 04:37:05 PM EST
    The whole post (is this technically hijacking?) is a rather one sided view of North Korea from a pro-communist prespective.

    It is impossible to adress all the statements made in that article in a post on this site especially one that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

    I will say you are entitled to your opinion but I am to mine.  Mine is that NK choose to stay a communist country while the rest of the world has moved away in one form or another from communism and that choice in the long run was a very poor one.   The articel tries to place blame on lots of other things (namely the interference of the great USA) but the cold fact is communism doesn't work and it hasn't for NK.

    Agree to disagree.

    Parent

    Great excuse (none / 0) (#182)
    by Edger on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 05:03:00 PM EST
    for unsubstantiated blanket assertions, but excuses don't lend any credibility, unfortunately. They just look like excuses.

    You would have been better off making the assertions in your attempt to change the subject to laugh off and avoid looking at The REAL Face of War.

    Parent

    err (none / 0) (#183)
    by Edger on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 05:04:26 PM EST
    better off ::not:: making the assertions

    Yes?

    Parent

    It's Edger btw. Not Edgar. (none / 0) (#184)
    by Edger on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 05:07:49 PM EST
    BTD (none / 0) (#113)
    by Slado on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:23:42 PM EST
    I don't understand your point.

    The inquisition is not theology it is history.

    Did Marx intend for Stalin, Castro and Kim to kill millions?  Was that part of his theology?

    People have killed in the name of religion but Jesus' tenants never had anything to do with the Inquisition.

    By your logic terrorism is Islamic theology no?  Or do you reserve such simple camparisons for only Christians?

    The inquisition (5.00 / 1) (#136)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 09:48:32 PM EST
    was a product of theology young man.

    Learn some history.

    Parent

    The Inquisition... (1.00 / 2) (#144)
    by jarober on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 10:08:46 PM EST
    Was centuries ago.  As opposed to the Jihad, which is going on across multiple continents today.  Far be it from Big Tent to grasp the difference

    Parent
    This is of course (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 10:23:11 PM EST
    a nonsequitor.

    Jesus Christ himself died 200o years ago.

    In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus said:

    Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, THAT THOU ART PETER, AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    If you actually read and understood this post, you might have a clue that this does not relate to Islam in the least but rather to the claims of one Cal Thomas.

    Truly obtuse of you.

    Parent

    Obtuse? (1.00 / 3) (#149)
    by jarober on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 10:41:14 PM EST
    Whats obtuse is that you - and the left in general - refuse to accept the reality that modern Christianity is not a threat to anyone.  Nor is Buddhism, Judaism, or any other major religion other than Islam.  Your attempts to equate intellectual squabbles with violent Jihad are amusing at best, and dangerous at worst.  

    Parent
    you just make sh*t up (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 11:04:56 PM EST
    No one said anything about Christiantiy being a threat to anything.

    Stop with the lying bullsh*t.

    Parent

    Hate to bring this up (1.00 / 1) (#158)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:17:38 AM EST
    No.
    by Edger on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:41:04 AM EST
    There is no equivalence, ppj.
    White supremacist nutbars have barely grown feet from their flippers and crawled out of the primordial slime pits. They are eons behind anyone they try to demonize.
    There will probably never be equivalence.

    edger
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 11:51:59 AM EST
    So you don't claim equilavence between the christians radicals, small though they may be in numbers, and the radical Moslems, your claim is that they are much worse than the radical Moslems?

    Zero weight"
    by jondee on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 01:09:56 PM EST
    means you're either completely out to lunch, or so occupied recieving "links" that you havnt heard or noticed that the bulwark of pressure and support from organized "Christians" for regime-change and The Greater Israel comes from groups that embrace the very dangerous, crack-brained, theological vision I described.

    Yeah, in the long view, (none / 0) (#69)
    by jondee on Mon Jul 09, 2007 at 01:15:08 PM EST
    I believe they're equal threats.



    Parent
    Christianity is no threat to anyone. (none / 0) (#162)
    by Edger on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:20:37 AM EST
    The pseudo-christian radical nutbars and their supporters like yourself are.

    They've sent armies to kill thousands of times more innocent people than muslim radicals retaliating for pseudo-christian radical nutbars killing their children and women ever have.

    But you knew that. It's an awful reality.

    It's not at surprising to see you try to divert away from it and remain in denial.

    Iraq: The Death of Reason has now been released to the public by Voice in the Wilderness productions. This stunning new film attacks the Evangelical Church's error in supporting the war in Iraq. Produced and directed by Raymond Schwab and Elliott Nesch of Beit Shalom Ministries, Iraq: The Death of Reason addresses just war theory, Abu Ghraib torture, depleted uranium, the deceptions sold to the American public by the Bush administration, false flag operations, war profiteers and calls the Christian church to reconsider their position, since prior to invasion 79% of evangelicals supported military action.
    You get a little stuck when you refuse to learn and evolve, ppj.

    Parent
    edger - That's funny. (1.00 / 1) (#165)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:41:09 AM EST
    So you define christians as anyone who:

    a. agrees with you.

    b. won't defend themselves.

    BTW - You still haven't answered the question as to why the Marines were in Lebanon in 1982.

    As you know, they were there trying to separate the warring factions and establish peace. Instead

    By late August the Marines of the MNF were caught up in firefights with armed elements outside their perimeter in the predominantly Shia suburbs of South Beirut. The Marines also received occasional fire from nearby mountain slopes, largely held by Druze fighters, supplied by Syria. On August 28, fighting between the LAF and militia forces in South Beirut spilled over to the Marine positions. On August 29, Marine positions came under mortar, rocket, and small-arms fire. Two Marines were killed and fourteen wounded. The Marines returned fire with artillery, small-arms, and a helicopter gunship. President Reagan informed the Congress that the continued presence of U.S. forces in Lebanon was essential to the objective of helping to restore the territorial integrity, sovereignty, and political independence of Lebanon.[39]

    In the weeks following the attack on Marines at Beirut International Airport, U.S. ships of the Sixth Fleet responded with naval gunfire. Two more Marines were killed on September 6. Druze and Palestinian militia forces engaged in intense fighting against Christian forces over areas in the Shuf mountains evacuated by withdrawing Israeli forces. Shultz had wanted the Israelis to remain in the Shuf so as not to reward Syrian intransigence in refusing to accept the May 17 agreement.

    So OBL's concern really is over the fact that Israel was not destroyed, and he views us as helping Israel.

    Parent

    Twisting the meanings into (5.00 / 0) (#168)
    by Edger on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:52:31 AM EST
    something unrecognizable from what they were isn't helping your image, ppj.

    I know it's hard to face the reality of the horrors you guys have unleashed, but remaining in denial  won't help.

    Parent

    The Christians -- who've (5.00 / 1) (#171)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:44:54 AM EST
    had audiences at the Whitehouse -- that believe Armageddon needs to occur in the Holy Land, are certainly a major threat.

    Also, it's worth mentioning that a Sikh leader in Canada was recently quoted as saying (paraphrase) "We wont rest until 50,000 Hindus are killed." Check it.

    Parent

    Theology (none / 0) (#180)
    by Slado on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 04:42:59 PM EST
    "Theology", then, is the systematic study of God and His divinity, the science concerning God ... the study and analysis and knowledge that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe, like creation, providence, salvation... yes, and it lies in the very essence of theology to be the doctrine not only of God and of faith, but also of religion. It is this triple function which gave rise to the old adage of the School: Theology teaches of God, is taught by God, and leads to God.

    That is not what lead to the Inquisitions.   The raher perverse application in the name of God by the then misguided church and society of the times lead to the Inquisition.  

    Even if you are right historically do you apply this logic to the Muslims of today, or do you only apply it concerning Christians and their actions 500 years ago?


    Parent

    Jesus' tenants (none / 0) (#124)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 08:59:50 PM EST
    Jesus was a landlord? Who knew?

    Parent
    Jesus had tenants? This (none / 0) (#154)
    by oculus on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 01:37:03 AM EST
    deserves a separate post.

    Parent
    Doubt (none / 0) (#153)
    by Alien Abductee on Tue Jul 10, 2007 at 11:24:13 PM EST
    Christians have experienced doubt in their faith right back to the apostle Thomas. Did Jesus castigate Thomas for his lack of faith? No, he just said "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."

    Mrs. Clinton said she believed in the resurrection of Jesus, though she described herself as less sure of the doctrine that being a Christian is the only way to salvation."

    Shame on Cal Thomas for condemning Hillary Clinton for her honest expression of doubt. It seems not very Christian of him. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and all that.

    Alien (none / 0) (#159)
    by jimakaPPJ on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:21:39 AM EST
    His condemnation is over her use of it for political purposes, not for whatever he faith/belief is.

    This is a politician speaking, not a person who believes in the central tenets of Christianity. . . . Clinton is entitled to whatever faith she wants to practice,

    Parent

    And you believe fellow (none / 0) (#164)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:33:42 AM EST
    social liberal Thomas isnt using Christianity for "political purposes"?

    Parent
    Hate to bring this up (none / 0) (#166)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 10:42:24 AM EST
    but the kind of intellectual dishonesty that you seem to imbibe like mothers milk from hacks like Thomas and disseminate here, does nothing to contribue to the struggle against the equal threats alreay discussed.

    Parent
    Not that I expect a straight (none / 0) (#172)
    by jondee on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 11:47:39 AM EST
    answer to that question..

    Parent
    I have no opinion (none / 0) (#160)
    by Peaches on Wed Jul 11, 2007 at 09:31:36 AM EST
    I'm not a religious scholar. I only know that many people make contradictory claims based upon the same sources. I give people that right.

    There is no ONE truth in my opinion. People use the same words and have different intentions and meanings. I made one point to BTD that Classical means to him something different than it does to someone else. He confirms that, but states clearly that he is right and the other is wrong. The human drama continues and we all go on arguing over words and thoughts.

    Give someone a new word or a new meaning for an old word and they will believe they are in possession of a new fact. But words are only human inventions or tools used for the purpose of communication and to uncover their meaning you have to engage in dialogue with your interlocutor and be prepared to shift meanings of the words you have become accustomed to using in certain ways - if you are truly reaching for understanding.

    As far as religion, I am of the same mind as a deceased Appalachian fiddler who said on an Alan Lomax documentary something to the effect.

    I ain't never joined no Church. They's all claimed  they are right. I might join the wrong one.