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The Negative Argument For Staying In Iraq

Watching the Iraq Debate in Congress, I noticed that there are still some GOP "dead enders" who argue the Debacle is going well. For the most part, these arguments are rightly ignored as foolish inanity. Indeed, it seems clear that in the country, and even in the Beltway, such arguments are dismissed as silly.

The new argument is, as mcjoan discussed the other day, we can't leave because even worse things will happen. Predictably, Fred Hiatt and David Ignatius and all the "Very Serious People" at the Washington Post and in the Beltway, who have gotten it wrong on every single issue regarding Iraq (I kid you not, look it up, wrong every time), are now mouthing the latest Bush talking point. Hiatt, writing for the Post Editorial Board, states:

Conditions in Iraq today are terrible, but they could become "way, way worse," as the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Ryan C. Crocker, a career Foreign Service officer, recently told the New York Times.

Way, way worse. Sure it is possible. Not very likely. But possible. The question is then what is the force of such an argument? Keeping things from getting "way, way worse" at the tune of thousands of American soldiers' lives and $120 billion a year is not a strategy. More.

But such is the argument that the Fred Hiatts and David Ignatiuses of the world have left. Ignatius wrote:

The daily death toll measures the cost America and the Iraqis already are paying, but Crocker and Zebari are right in warning that a sudden U.S. withdrawal could be even more costly: The violence that is destroying Iraq could spread throughout the region -- an inferno stretching across Lebanon, the Palestinian territories, Jordan, Syria, and even Egypt and Saudi Arabia -- with devastating consequences for global security.

(Emphasis supplied.) This is just nonsense. The violence in Iraq won't "spread." The fight is OVER Iraq. Ignatius is just making this nonsense up. And he is doing it in service, perhaps unwitting service, to the latest Bush rationale fvor "staying the course." Sure, Ignatius and Hiatt and all the "Very Serious People" say they want a change of course, but they don't get to set policy.

In order to stem the growing resolve in Congress to confront Bush and end the Debacle, the negative argument is coupled with the unhinged confidence that General David Petraeus will ride to the rescue. Interestingly, it seems to me that Bush places proper confidence in Petraeus' ability to win the hearts and minds of the Beltway Gasbags come September.

But the American People are no longer so foolish as the "Very Serious People." 70% favor withdrawal now. Come September it will be even more.

And here's the rub. Republicans never listen to the Gasbags. But they do listen to their Wingnut base. They will never break with Bush on Iraq.

Democrats foolishly listen to the Gasbags. And they will defy their base. Less so now than before. But will they do what must be done to end the Iraq Debacle? I hope so. One hopeful sign is Senator Harry Reid and Rep. Nancy Pelosi's disdain for the Gasbags in brigning forward the Iraq debate prior to September and Petraeus' performance to come.

Let's hope that is a harbinger.

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    I've given up on "hopeful signs" (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:18:14 AM EST
    from Democratic leadership.

    I think yesterday's vote in the House was designed not to "increase pressure" on Bush and his Republican enablers, but rather to decrease pressure on the Democrats from people like us.

    It's very telling that (none / 0) (#5)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:41:36 AM EST
    The margin of 223-201 in passing the Responsible Redeployment act yesterday was smaller than the Democratic margin in the House (231-201).

    But, we'll have a veto proof majority to beat up Bush with real soon.

    Democrats are going to start defecting in droves to the Democrats any day now... just you watch. If you don't believe me ask the impeachniks.

    Parent

    It's very telling (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:43:56 AM EST
    you are anticipating my post that will come after the two weeks of Iraq Debate, with the Republicans in the Senate filbustering ANY and ALL attempts to change the course in Iraq.

    Parent
    You might have to acknowledge (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:47:22 AM EST
    Thanks (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:49:15 AM EST
    I meant to link in my comment but I got ahead of myself.

    Parent
    Stoller fails to acknowledge (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:54:15 AM EST
    as he did during the Iraq Supplemental fight, that this was so.

    Stoller fails to acknowledge, as he did then, that his insistence on "whipping" the Out of Iraq Caucus was incredibly wrongheaded.

    He fails to take Move On or himself to task for what they did.

    In essence, Stoller and that group fail to acknowledge they were dead wrong and what it means for IRaq policy now.

    I do not see Stoller endorsing the Not funding option.

    When he acknowledges that, then we can worry about acknowledging other things.

    Parent

    "acknowledge" was the wrong word (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:56:19 AM EST
    I actually note that particular post with some amusement. He just sort of seems to be looking at these numbers with an unfocused paralysis.

    Parent
    re: an unfocused paralysis (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:58:45 AM EST
    Well... it: Seems kind of important, you know? ;-)

    Parent
    No (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:04:39 AM EST
    His focus is that of a Democratic operative -- what does it mean for the Democratic Party in 2008.

    He did not have to leave MYDD to write stuff like that.

    It is part and parcel of the the cooptation problem of the Netroots I have discussed for some time now.

    Parent

    Well, that's why I say "seems" (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:12:50 AM EST
    If I were to mind-read, I'd say it's because the conclusions he's have to come to in order to explain what he observes aren't compatible with his desire to be Mr. Big Shot Democratic Consultant, like his new pal Mike.  

    Parent
    I'm No Big (1.00 / 1) (#22)
    by talex on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:27:33 PM EST
    fan of all of what Stoller thinks. But how in the hell could you expect Stoller or anyone else who thinks responsibly to possibly endorse the "Not funding option" when not you yourself can explain how it would work?

    It's easy to say 'Stop Funding'. But the devil is in the details which you have none of. You have no plan for where the money would come from to sustain the troops militarily for the 6 months or more that it would take to pull them out. You have no plan for where the money would come from to actually physically pull them out. You have no plan. You have a bumper sticker.

    If you ever wondered why responsible people in the blogosphere or anywhere else for that matter have not considered your plan I just told you why they don't. Because you have no plan.

    Come up with a plan and you might have something. But without a plan you have nothing but a few people who are endorsing something they really don't understand.

    Parent

    Repeatedly asking the same question (none / 0) (#23)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:12:00 PM EST
    insinuating the same lie... is simple and obvious trolling, talex. Nothing more.

    The answer to your question is here.

    But you pretend not to read it. Again. To justify your lies to yourself.

    Even rethug trolls are not this bad.

    Parent

    heh! (none / 0) (#8)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:47:50 AM EST
    Sad but funny at the same time, in a sick sort of way, isn't it?

    Parent
    Transparent (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:37:19 AM EST
    Conditions in Iraq today are terrible, but they could become "way, way worse," as the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Ryan C. Crocker, a career Foreign Service officer, recently told the New York Times.

    Much worse only means that America will lose control of the oil and their colonial dreams with all the resplendent real estate that goes with owning a country.

    Also what is at stake is the notion that America is the only superpower in the world and can do as it pleases.

    The expansion of war throught the mid east is just another bedwetter fantasy produced to keep Americans scared and docile.

    I spent the day watching it (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:42:04 AM EST
    I wasn't disappointed at all if this is indeed the beginning of the pressure and debates.  I was actually pretty impressed.  Didn't pay enough attention to the Republican debaters so can't remember which one made the Democrats argument for them on draw down......anyhow I was cleaning when some goofball went off on how we had all but given up on Al Anbar province and then suddenly those citizens came knocking on our door seeking help with the insurgents.  See what happens when we remove ourselves from the field and are no longer just another attacker?  Duh!  We should have pulled back and drawn down ages ago and only shown up when the Iraqis called on us to help them curb violence and genocide.  If we act like that though no promise that we'll get to puppet those in charge so not a good idea in the Bush White House I suppose.  I don't like Rahm much but I liked him just fine yesterday.  His time at the podium amounted to me to be the first shot across the Republican bow that they can come with us peacefully or we can start talking about waging a smart defense against terror verses their totally stupid wasteful unsuccessful not even targeting the terrorists war on terror.  So many Republicans lamenting how the rug is being pulled out from under David Petraeus gave me lots of chuckles.  Soldiers aren't exactly professors or CEO's, they wait everyday to be told what to do and expect things to change often very radically and don't take a whole lot personally because they spend all of their day focusing on everything but themselves......so all that was very comical.  I immensely enjoyed Pelosi's reality reminder that the President and Commander in Chief agreed to these nonbinding benchmarks.  I suppose if Petraeus feels slighted he can take it up with his command.  So be warned dead enders, you can give up your B.S. asap or Rahm will start talking freely not about how you are trying to accuse him of being soft on the war on terror but about how you have been so easily proven flat out stupid and nuts in the war on terror and should all be committed for psychiatric evaluation.

    Chris Hedges (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by Peaches on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 11:23:02 AM EST
    and Laila Al-Arian has an article in The Nation, confirming everything most of us knew going into the War and occupation of Iraq. Innocent Iraqis are being killed and the American presence in Iraq is creating a stronger and more resilient insurgency the longer the occupancy goes on.  

    My husband says they get lots of exercise (none / 0) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 11:30:37 AM EST
    and skill improvement probing for and exploiting all the weak points of America's occupying military ;)  It's like having the best chemistry set in the world for any aspiring terrorist organization.

    Parent
    The new argument mcjoan writes about (none / 0) (#2)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:35:38 AM EST
    is not an argument. It is simply another part or extension of the lies and manipulatory propaganda this administration has used all along, now turned towards hanging on to the last few suckers that make up their base.

    AJ in DC at AMERICABlog wrote yesterday about Brig. Gen. Kevin J. Bergner, the chief U.S. military spokesman feeding blatant lies to the press, calling al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) "the principal threat" to Iraqis.

    This is, quite simply, completely and totally false.

    Anyone who claims that the so-called al Qaeda in Iraq group is the "principal threat" to anything in that nation -- whether its citizens, the government, the political process, or any specific ethnic or sectarian group -- is either grossly ignorant of the realities of the Iraq war or blatantly lying. I honestly have no idea which it is in this case, though it's worth noting that the chief U.S. military spokesman, Brig. Gen. Kevin Bergner, was employed as a Special Assistant to the President prior to his current appointment.

    Most reliable estimates put the fundamentalist/jihadist/al Qaeda actors in Iraq at around 3-5% of the total insurgency, with virtually no approximations exceeding 10%. I really cannot overstate how misleading it is to focus on al Qaeda when the driving forces of the conflict are average, native, very pissed-off -- but not religious fundamentalist -- Iraqis. The vast majority of the Sunni population is relatively secular (more secular, in fact, than Iraqi Shia), and even tacit support of jihadists is founded in anti-American sentiment. Even the sectarian violence is fueled more by localized conflicts between Sunni and Shia families, tribes, and militias than by al Qaeda.

    The emergence of this fallacious "argument" was  descrbed back in early May by William Blum with:

    This appears to be the last remaining, barely-breathing argument of that vanishing species who still support the god-awful war. The argument implies a deeply-felt concern about the welfare and safety of the Iraqi people. What else could it mean? That the US military can't leave because it's needed to protect the oil bonanza awaiting American oil companies as soon as the Iraqi parliament approves the new written-in-Washington oil law? No, the Bush administration loves the people of Iraq. How much more destruction, killing and torturing do you need to be convinced of that? We can't leave because of the violence. We can't leave until we have assured that peace returns to our dear comrades in Iraq.

    To better understand this argument, it helps to keep in mind the following about the daily horror that is life in Iraq:

         It did not exist before the US occupation.

         The insurgency violence began as, and remains, a reaction to the occupation; like almost all insurgencies in occupied countries -- from the American Revolution to the Vietcong -- it's a fight directed toward getting foreign forces to leave.

    What will fix Iraq is not staying in there and fantasizing that continuing to do the same things that are causing the problems there will somehow magically begin to solve the problems.

    What will fix Iraq is not "doing" something.

    What will fix Iraq is "not doing" something.

    Not funding the occupation any longer is what will begin fixing Iraq.

    It's an argument (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 09:41:30 AM EST
    A silly, illogical, nonsensical one.

    Parent
    Do you follow.... (none / 0) (#14)
    by jarober on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:05:54 AM EST
    Do you read Michael Yon?  he's hardly an unvarnished cheerleader, and he's reporting from the ground in Iraq.  You might try reading some actual reporting, instead of what the AP and Reuters get from stringers of dubious reliability.

    As Green Greenwald wrote (none / 0) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:08:57 AM EST
    Patrick Cockburn has been in Iraq pretty continuously for 3 years. You reading him? Michael Yon is not an unvarnished cheerleader, but a cheerleader nonetheless. Indeed, no one except some GOP Senators can be unvarnished cheerleaders now.

    Oh, and Joe Lieberman, a de facto Republican.

    Parent

    Huh? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:23:17 AM EST
    You might try reading some actual reporting, instead of what the AP and Reuters get from stringers of dubious reliability.

    Are you saying that all those people aren't really dead and that all the money really hasn't been borrowed from China and spent?  Are you saying that the congresscritters who said they had to wear armor and were not permitted to stay overnight in the Green Zone were lying?  Are you saying the CIA was wrong when it announced that Al Qaeda is now stronger than it was when we invaded?

    Who are you telling us is wrong about this?

    Parent

    sure they could be worse; (none / 0) (#19)
    by cpinva on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 11:10:03 AM EST
    it could lead to armageddon, the rapture, etc. probably not. these are the very same people who predict, with regularity, that even the slightest increase in the minimum wage will lead to the next "great depression". that never happens either.

    these people (brooks, hiatt, et al) have been wrong, on everything, for years now. if i had their track record at work, i'd have been fired. clearly, i should be employed by the nyt's and wp, where even delusions of mediocrity aren't necessary to bring in a fat paycheck.

    what i can guarantee, with 100% certainty, will happen, upon our departure, is that the iraqi's themselves will be forced into acting, in their own defense, if nothing else. how that plays out is strictly a guessing game.

    Gasbags and constituents (none / 0) (#24)
    by chemoelectric on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:09:57 PM EST
    Interesting that it is after a whole holiday at home that Dems come back and are distrustful of Gasbags. It is almost as if a few trusted people at home specifically are warning of the unreliability of Gasbag advice; perhaps politicians talk to pollsters during breaks? I donâ€<sup>TM</sup>t really know how politicians spend their break time.

    they go into (none / 0) (#25)
    by cpinva on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 01:41:21 AM EST
    the shop for a thorough cleaning and tune-up. get the oil/filter changed, suit dry-cleaned and pressed. check all the fluids, top them off, rotate/balance the tires.

    Parent