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Pentagon Outrageously Attacks Sen. Clinton

This is truly outrageous politicization of the Pentagon and deserves the most serious reubke:

In a stinging rebuke to a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Undersecretary of Defense Eric Edelman responded to questions [Sen.] Clinton raised in May in which she urged the Pentagon to start planning now for the withdrawal of American forces. "Premature and public discussion of the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq reinforces enemy propaganda that the United States will abandon its allies in Iraq, much as we are perceived to have done in Vietnam, Lebanon and Somalia," Edelman wrote.

Edelman seems not to know that the Pentagon is not the commanding officer of the Senate. His response is disrespectful, outrageous and he should be immediately fired for his unacceptable behavior. And you can have no doubt that Edelman is not a uniform wearing member of the military, but rather a BushCo hack (From February 2001 to June 2003, he was Principal Deputy Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs. Career foreign service officers do not get that posting without being Cheney acolytes.) Senator Clinton's response is right on the mark:

Clinton spokesman Philippe Reines called Edelman's answer "at once outrageous and dangerous," and said the senator would respond to his boss, Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Gates should apologize and fire Edelman for this outrageous behavior.

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  • Display: Sort:
    "...its allies in Iraq." (5.00 / 2) (#1)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 02:52:51 PM EST
    And those would be?  Oh, that's right, a tangled and dysfunctional web of conflicting loyalties all converging at our impossible position as foreign invader/occupier in the middle of a multi-faceted civil war.

    He'll probably get a f*cking promotion.

    As Woody Allen said in Annie Hall, "I need a large sock full of horse manure."

    Allies in Iraq? (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by Edger on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 03:27:44 PM EST
    By arming Sunnis to ostensibly help fight al-Qaeda (who was NOT in Iraq before the invasion and is such a small minority the Iraqis will slit all their throats the moment they are not distracted by throwing the US out) but who will use the help to fight Shias Bush is now taking sides in a civil war with people who composed Saddam's Ba'ath Party, against the very Shia backed puppet government Bush set up in the first place.


    Parent
    Eric Edelman, neocon extraordinaire (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by joanneleon on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 03:25:19 PM EST
    As an assistant to Cheney, he was part of the foreign policy network that hurriedly established the "intelligence" rationales for the U.S. invasion of Iraq. Edelman, who is close to such leading neocons as Michael Ledeen and Richard Perle, worked closely in the vice president's office with Scooter Libby in establishing a policy network of hawks and neocons that was based at the Pentagon and Cheney's office but extended through key figures into State, the various intelligence agencies, and the National Security Council.

    Right-Web via Wot Is It Good 4, from their analysis of Edelman.

    He also worked at the State dept. during the Clinton administration so it's interesting that he's going after Hillary.  It looks like she was somewhat safe from their wrath while she supported the war but now they're going after her?

    So then if Bush... (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by desertswine on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 03:36:53 PM EST
    deems that Clinton is working to threaten stability in Iraq, by urging the Pentagon to withdraw forces, he can order her assets siezed?
    All by himself?


    The Unit (none / 0) (#7)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 03:52:50 PM EST
    Can do as he pleases, evidentially.

    Parent
    Exactly my thought. (none / 0) (#13)
    by lilybart on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 04:38:03 PM EST
    We should not be surprised when this new "regulation" is used on a citizen speaking out.

    Parent
    All racist comments (5.00 / 2) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 06:56:06 PM EST
    will always be deleted.

    Because of his surname (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 07:26:49 PM EST
    is.

    Parent
    We agree. (none / 0) (#27)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 07:33:14 PM EST
    BTD, at least we agree on some things. I also questioned that comment when it appeared and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one.

    Parent
    Something like. (5.00 / 1) (#38)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 08:26:52 PM EST
    walter, if you were to presuppose that I had nefarious connections to the German government based on my last name alone that would be objectionable. Similarly, if you made such an assumption about BTD (assuming BTD gets his last name from the German Llorens). Same thing if you assumed that Jeralyn is taking directions from her Majesty's government or perhaps that President Clinton had such nefarious connections.

    It is patently objectionable to make the suggestion that a person is acting in a nefarious manner based only on his last name. You tied the last name in question to a particular race, hence the observation: racist.

    Parent

    Hmm. (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 09:38:27 PM EST
    I should have taken a hint from BTD and just let you spin your wheels over there in that corner by yourself. My bad.

    Parent
    No (none / 0) (#36)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 08:10:17 PM EST
    Your thought was that someone named Eric Endelman might have a propensity to favoring Israel is NOT a racist remark?

    Look, I a m not going to argue with you.

    Do NOT do it again or I will ask Jeralyn to ban you.

    Parent

    Pentagon Dissing Hillary (4.50 / 2) (#14)
    by terryethics on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 04:47:25 PM EST
    I sense that the rebuke was designed to fire up Dumbya's base and help Hillary with the Democrats. Dumbya is trying desperately to hold onto the GOP and the GOP recognizes that it is headed toward a massive election disaster if current trends continue. The only chance that Dumbya or the GOP have is to continue to demonize the Democrats rather than try and convince anybody that their policies are superior. Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton are not running, so that leaves Hillary. They get a twofer, because a lot of Democrats are uneasy with Hillary's stance on Iraq and being criticised by a Dumbya political hack helps Hillary. The GOP's longterm strategy is to energize the base not by the strength of their candidate, but by demonizing the Democratic candidate. That works best if Hillary is the candidate. It still isn't going to work, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

    et al (1.00 / 3) (#5)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 03:47:03 PM EST
    the Pentagon is not the commanding officer of the Senate.

    What he is, is 110% right when he writes:

    "Premature and public discussion of the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq reinforces enemy propaganda that the United States will abandon its allies in Iraq, much as we are perceived to have done in Vietnam, Lebanon and Somalia," Edelman wrote.

    Clinton demonstrates extremely poor judgement and an amazing lack of military strategy when she asks for this. But then she will surely claim that since
    her leader, Reid of NV has claimed the war is lost such a question is perfectly okay.

    A more meaningful question would have been how many body bags have been ordered to take of those killed during the surrender/retreat.

    And Clinton could write a response (5.00 / 5) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 03:57:31 PM EST
    letter saying "OSama bin Laden could not be happier with your service Edelman."

    It amazes me NOT that you utterly miss the point.

    No one asked Edelman's opinion on whether it should be discussed. The question was are plans being drawn up. As a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, you can hardly argue Clinton did not have the right to ask the question and to be answered respectfully.

    But you are what you are and this answer is more of the same.

    Gabe disapponts me. You fulfill my expectations on this.

    Parent

    The military disagrees with Edelman (5.00 / 2) (#19)
    by TexDem on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 06:25:38 PM EST
    The military is already wargaming an exit. KO had the wargaming episode on last night.

    So I guess the military is guilty of giving comfort to Osama because they've already wargamed an exit theory and what will happen in Iraq when the US leaves.

    Parent

    Really (1.00 / 0) (#25)
    by Slado on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 07:25:12 PM EST
    The military is also war gaming the invasion of Iran, North Korea and many other countries in the world that we will never invade.

    Non point.

    Parent

    Not Really (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by TexDem on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 07:36:10 PM EST
    Edelman is the one who said to even have discussions of exiting Iraq gives credence to AlQueda's claims. By extension wargaming an exit would have to be considered premature and it gives the same credence. You cannot separate the words of one from the actions of the others.

    As a matter of fact all Edelman had to do was refer to the wargaming and say they are considering all options and this would be moot. But he being a political animal couldn't resist the attempt to slam a political rival.

    Parent

    TexDem (1.00 / 1) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 07:47:36 PM EST
    But he being a political animal couldn't resist the attempt to slam a political rival.

    He also happens to be correct.

    Parent

    Then why isn't the Pentagon (5.00 / 2) (#32)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 07:53:53 PM EST
    being slapped down for war gaming what happens when we leave? Doesn't that give aide and comfort to the enemy?

    BTW, you won't like what the Pentagon's war games determined- all your dire predictions are wrong.



    Parent

    MB (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 08:03:00 PM EST
    If someone leaked war game plans they would be slapped down... and in charged..

    Parent
    Well where is the slapdown and charges? (5.00 / 2) (#39)
    by Molly Bloom on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 08:44:28 PM EST
    The war games results are out here are the conclusions:

    Shiites would drive Sunnis out of ethnically mixed areas west to Anbar province. Southern Iraq would erupt in civil war between Shiite groups. And the Kurdish north would solidify its borders and invite a U.S. troop presence there. In short, Iraq would effectively become three separate nations.

    Al Qaida lite would not gain power, nor use Iraq as base to attack us here, and that an Iranian takeover would be unlikely.



    Parent

    That's the way I heard it (5.00 / 2) (#45)
    by TexDem on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 09:17:24 PM EST
    And Iran if involved at all would be trying to pat down a Shi'a civil war.

    Parent
    Geeeee MB (1.00 / 1) (#50)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 10:05:16 PM EST
    Got some links to the US Government's War Games, POA's and POD's??

    Didn't realize you had that much hump.

    Looking forward to reading them.

    Parent

    Use your eyes or use google (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:49:06 AM EST
    If you bothered to read the threads you reply in, you might see it.



    Parent

    MB (1.00 / 1) (#58)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:33:42 AM EST
    Uh, I'm not interested on what is on the net.

    We're talking US War Plans here.

    You know, the classiied and secret stuff.

    The stuff that counts.

    Now, if you don't have'em, I understand.

    But please don't confuse Internet chat with the real thing.

    Parent

    Bona fide news sources- WAPO, MSNBC (5.00 / 1) (#62)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:57:33 AM EST
    not good enough for you? I gave  you the link. Tex Dem gave you the link. Have yo had your eyes checked recently?



    Parent

    Molly Loves Strawmen (1.00 / 1) (#68)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:03:13 PM EST
    Perhaps you should read the entire post before you comment.

    WASHINGTON - The Pentagon told Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton that her questions about how the U.S. plans to eventually withdraw from Iraq boosts enemy propaganda.

    Hillary wasn't asking for news reports, she was asking for the secret details.

    Now, when you get them, please advise.

    Parent

    Lets get on track again (5.00 / 0) (#70)
    by Molly Bloom on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:56:40 PM EST
    Here is the original thread. See if you can follow it.

    To recap the question was:

    If asking if we have plans aides and comforts the enemy, then what about wargaming plans for withdrawal?

    You've never actaully responded to the question.



    Parent

    Molly wants new Strawmen (1.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 09:56:19 AM EST
    See my response to BTD.

    The question by Hillary wasn't if we have plans..

    The question was:

    WASHINGTON - The Pentagon told Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton that her questions about how the U.S. plans to eventually withdraw from Iraq boosts enemy propaganda.

    That qustion assumes we have plans, and then asks for details.

    How will you drive to the shopping center?

    Ans: In my car.

    Discussions would confirm, with details, what is widely asssumed. Someday we will leave. As I wrote to another:

    I know I will die.

    Hearing my doctors discuss when and how with my wife would certainly provide a great deal of creditability.

    Parent

    Do you have a point? (5.00 / 1) (#86)
    by Molly Bloom on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 10:41:09 AM EST
    Or are you just rambling?



    Parent

    Try to pay attention (none / 0) (#83)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 10:01:58 AM EST
    Dear Mr. Secretary:

    On May 22, 2007, I wrote to you to request that you provide the appropriate oversight committees in Congress - including the Senate Armed Services Committee - with briefings on what current contingency plans exist for the future withdrawal of United States forces from Iraq. Alternatively, if no such plans exist, I asked for an explanation for the decision not to engage in such planning.

    Clinton letter to Gates, July 19, 2007

    Parent
    BTD (1.00 / 1) (#29)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 07:44:27 PM EST
    You write:

    The question was are plans being drawn up.

    Your link wrote:

    WASHINGTON - The Pentagon told Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton that her questions about how the U.S. plans to eventually withdraw from Iraq boosts enemy propaganda.

    Either the link is wrong or you are wrong.

    Which is it?

    I'll take the link's word.

    You again disappoint me with your mistake.

    Parent

    So when did you abandon democracy? (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by kovie on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 04:23:22 PM EST
    After 9/11, or were you born that way?

    Read the constitution before you post here again, fool.

    Parent

    PPJ is right, because (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Al on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 05:04:13 PM EST
    Al Qaeda is of course blissfully unaware of the possibility that the US may withdraw its troops from Iraq, this being such a well-kept secret.

    Parent
    Al (1.00 / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 07:55:14 PM EST
    I am very aware that someday I will die.

    Hearing my doctors discuss the estimated date and how with my wife will add a great deal of realty to it.

    Parent

    Which is it? (none / 0) (#54)
    by scarshapedstar on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:23:33 AM EST
    A more meaningful question would have been how many body bags have been ordered to take of those killed during the surrender/retreat.

    I've never understood this talking point.

    An invading force pretty much has two options: retreat or surrender. You can't really do both. It's pretty clear that we'd simply retreat.

    Parent

    scar - Don't kid yourself. (1.00 / 1) (#59)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:36:40 AM EST
    Retreat is defacto surrender.

    And that's exactly how the terrorists and all other countries will see it.

    Parent

    Okay (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by scarshapedstar on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:51:34 AM EST
    So what? Lemme guess, then they'll trash talk us and our National Face will be red and/or egged.

    Why do you steely eyed rocket men preoccupy uourselves with saving face and swaggering? Is "keepin 'em scared" the only thing keeping us safe? Do you realize how pathetic that sounds?

    Parent

    PPJ and Osama sittin' in a tree... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:40:57 AM EST
    Retreat is defacto surrender.

    Much better to follow the OBL strategy of tying our military down and grinding it to pieces while bankrupting the United States and driving AQ recruiting through the roof.  Why do you and Mr. Bush support Osama's strategy?

    And that's exactly how the terrorists and all other countries will see it.

    So we should be more worried about what the terrorists think of us than about our national interest?  Why do you CARE about what terrorists think of us?

    I forgot.  You support the Osama strategy, and it's important to you that we don't upset him by leaving Iraq.

    Parent

    Anything to keep "the war" (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by jondee on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 11:07:19 AM EST
    (any war) going. These fantasists and narcissists never change the way they think until, in some shape or form, they're hurt directly themselves.

    Parent
    DA's Strawman falls down (1.00 / 2) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 10:10:58 AM EST
    there was no terrorist group in Iraq.

    That statement is not accurate and all that follows falls apart.

    Saddam was a supporter of Hamas, making cash payments to the families of those who were successful suicide bombers.

    Fitzgerald told the 911 commission that al-Qaeda and  Iraq were working togther on an enemy of my enemy is my friend basis.

    David Kay confirmed he had rockets with ranges beyond that agreed to. Kay also confirmed that he was trying to get back into the WMD business.

    Even Joe Wilson confirmed to the CIA that Iraq had tried to purchase yellowcake from Niger per the belief of the Niger ex-premier.

    Of course our attempt to change the regime in Iraq and establish a liberal democracy is being opposed by al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Why would anyone think it wouldn't be?

    That is why it is very important that we win. Perhaps if the Demos quit declaring the war lost, trying to quit funding the troops and telling the enemy the date certain we will surrender and leave we will be successful.


    Parent

    all of those are complete and absolute lies (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by Sailor on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 10:54:00 AM EST
    Fitzgerald told the 911 commission that al-Qaeda and  Iraq were working togther on an enemy of my enemy is my friend basis.

    David Kay confirmed he had rockets with ranges beyond that agreed to. Kay also confirmed that he was trying to get back into the WMD business.

    Even Joe Wilson confirmed to the CIA that Iraq had tried to purchase yellowcake from Niger per the belief of the Niger ex-premier.

    not even rethuglicans believe those lies.

    They have been disproven over and over on this site so many times that your only purpose is pure trolling.

    You sir are delusional and beneath contempt or further reply.

    Parent

    sailor (none / 0) (#96)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:03:29 PM EST
    I have linked to all of them.

    Try reading.

    Parent

    yes, you have ... (5.00 / 1) (#102)
    by Sailor on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:33:27 PM EST
    ... repeatedly linked to all those disproven arguments over and over.

    It's just more cherrypicking from a delusional mind.

    You just can't handle the truth, even when bush and the cia and the pentagon and the 9/11 commission and the iraq study group all say there was no connection between AQ and 9/11 you still insist on there was one.

    No wonder only 24% of Americans agree with your support of bush and his failed war.


    Parent

    HAhhahaha (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by squeaky on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 11:44:05 AM EST
    You seemed attached to the word strawman like a 4-year-old who has just discovered the meaning of the word buttocks.

    Yes we have all noticed the new favorite word of ppj, but you have made the perfect analogy. Very funny and exactly right.

    Parent

    Thanks DA ... (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by Sailor on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 11:46:06 PM EST
    ... not that it'll do any good;-)

    p.s. I do think there is a crack in your first statement;-)

    Parent

    DA - You left some stuff out. (none / 0) (#97)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 11:18:13 PM EST
    Now I wonder why. Seems a bit dishonest to me.

    From Fitzgerald's answer to Fielding in the 9ll Commission hearing minutes.

    that at a certain point they decided that they wouldn't work against each other and that we believed a fellow in al Qaeda named Mondu Saleem (ph), Abu Harzai (ph) the Iraqi, tried to reach a, sort of, understanding where they wouldn't work against each other. Sort of, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

    And somehow you missed this. I wonder why?

    The CIA's DO gave the former ambassador's information a grade of "good," which means that it added to the IC's body of understanding on the issue, The reports officer said that a "good" grade was merited because the information responded to at least some of the outstanding questions in the Intelligence Community, but did not provide substantial new information. He said he judged that the most important fact in the report was that the Nigerien officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Nigerien Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium, because this provided some confirmation of foreign government service reporting.


    Parent
    Native Speaker (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:01:17 PM EST
    Do you think that ppj is a Mexican who adopted the Right Wing in order to become a real American?

    It would explain his love of Jacksonian fantasies.

    Parent

    Hahahahaha! (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:02:58 PM EST
    Was Jackson (none / 0) (#101)
    by Edger on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:20:39 PM EST
    an illegal immigrant bent on destroying ppj's "culture"?

    Parent
    Not (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 01:37:51 PM EST
    It is this fantasy perpetuated by ppj's hero Walter Russell Mead which under cloak of darkness reinvigorates KKK ideology.

    Parent
    Jiminsky Popoveritka Platenishdy (none / 0) (#105)
    by squeaky on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 04:21:00 PM EST
    Who would have guessed?


    Parent
    "Strong wording" (1.00 / 4) (#6)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 03:52:17 PM EST
    I was struck more by this sentence in the article:

    The strong wording of the response is unusual, particularly for a missive to a member of the Senate committee with oversight of the Defense Department and its budget.

    Apparently, the proper way to address Senators is to shuffle one's feet, look at the floor, and avoid "strong wording." Maybe throwing in a few "yessa, massas" might help, too?

    How about addressing a (5.00 / 4) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 03:54:53 PM EST
    sitting Senator with respect.

    How about not virtually accusing such Senator of treason for asking if there are plans being developed for a contingency that seems more and more likely each day.

    It is beyond stupid to write that letter.

    Earth to Gabe and Edelman, the CONGRESS has been debating withdrawal for two weeks now, including bill passage.

    IT disappoints me Gabe to see you comment in this stupid fashion.

    Parent

    You have yet to show (1.00 / 0) (#16)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 04:54:21 PM EST
    that Edelman addressed Senator Clinton without respect. I have yet to see a copy of the letter and I bet you haven't seen one either. All we have are these excerpts selected by the AP:

    Premature and public discussion of the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Iraq reinforces enemy propaganda that the United States will abandon its allies in Iraq, much as we are perceived to have done in Vietnam, Lebanon and Somalia.

    [S]uch talk understandably unnerves the very same Iraqi allies we are asking to assume enormous personal risks.

    We are always evaluating and planning for possible contingencies. As you know, it is long-standing departmental policy that operational plans, including contingency plans, are not released outside of the department.

    Perhaps you could put your creativity to work and explain to me how those sentences could be more respectful.

    This is my favorite part of the AP report:

    Clinton aides said the letter ignored important military matters and focuses instead on political payback.

    Wouldn't it be great if we were allowed to read the letter and decide for ourselves?

    Parent

    Your favorite part of the AP report (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 05:01:00 PM EST
    is of course the point.

    If you really do not see it, then I have overestimated your intelligence.

    Parent

    I read that Jack the Ripper (none / 0) (#53)
    by kovie on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 11:52:39 PM EST
    was a real gentleman before he got down to business too.

    This is no more about superficial shows of respect than is when senators who despise each other refer to each other as "the distinguished senator from...".

    Far less so, actually.

    Stop wasting electrons.

    Parent

    BTD (1.00 / 1) (#31)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 07:49:45 PM EST
    Perhaps when the Senate Demos use some respect they will get some.

    Wasn't it the Clintons and their troops who declared politics "blood sport??"

    Parent

    You can always tell when a wingnut troll (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by kovie on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 11:49:22 PM EST
    has nothing else left to say when they resort to "But Clinton did it! But Clinton did it! Everybody look out it's the Clenis and his man-wife!".

    Good god, you people basically ran out of "ideas" (a word I use generously) sometime during the second Reagan administration--around the time that St. Ronnie started talking to Bonzo again and kept calling out for mommie.

    Admit it, you guys are gutless pantywaists who can dish it out but crap your pants can't take it. Waah! Waah! Mommy he called me bad words!

    Now please remind me just which senator said that he understood why people might want to murder federal judges. Here's a hint. He's from the lone star state and has something to do with box turtles.

    Go away until you have something relevant to add. Which is likely to be never.

    Parent

    LOL (1.00 / 1) (#56)
    by Wile ECoyote on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:42:39 AM EST
    Read your own posts before asking people to go away.

    Parent
    Why? (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by kovie on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 02:19:18 PM EST
    When I can just read yours?

    Parent
    Sure (none / 0) (#75)
    by Wile ECoyote on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:12:22 PM EST
    point them out, please.

    Parent
    These two come to mind (5.00 / 1) (#78)
    by kovie on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:27:22 PM EST
    You have criticized my comments without specifying what it is about them that you object to. Such an unsubstantiated blanket criticism is inherently objectionable. If you don't get or refuse to acknowledge that, it's not my problem.

    Parent
    kovie (1.00 / 0) (#67)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 11:52:08 AM EST
    Admit it, you guys are gutless pantywaists who can dish it out but crap your pants can't take it. Waah! Waah! Mommy he called me bad words!

    Actually I was thinking of the people who worked for the White House Travel Agency.... They were fired and a scandal erupted. (You may remember.)

    The head of the agency, who the Clintonians fired, was Billy Dale. He was charged and went to trial. It took the jury less than an hour to acquit.

    So my bad for making a mistake.

    As for the rest of your nonsense, I assume you haven't been around this blog for long. I hope you stay. You'll be a lot of fun.

    Parent

    Anyone who invokes "But Clinton did it!" (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by kovie on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 02:18:19 PM EST
    Immediately and irreversibly outs themselves as a right-wing troll.

    And don't you mean "But Stalin did it!, which I think is a more apt "justification" for anything that Bush did? To the best of my knowledge Clinton didn't torture anyone, illegally invade a country based on obvious lies, cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands including 3600 Americans, sleep on the job and allow another 3000 to die, let an entire city drown and 1000+ of its citizens die, or spy on his citizens illegally. Oh, but he lied about getting a blow job and there were some shenanigans in the WH travel office, so I guess that evens everything out.

    And I don't need to have been a long-term member here to spot a troll. You guys make it easy because you all say the same moronic things. Do they give you a lobotomy in troll academy or something, or does being on the same side as Ann Coulter and Bill O'Falafel accomplish the same thing?

    Parent

    kovie your logic (1.00 / 2) (#85)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 10:21:10 AM EST
    isn't logical. Pointing out the things done by the Clintons while Clinton1 was Pres means nothing beyond what it says. They either did, or did not do what was claimed.

    Same with everything in life.

    The shenanigans you refer to in the travel office cost people their jobs, and the Director, Billy Dale, everything he had including his home. I find it interesting you can't condemn that just as I have said that Bush's position on gay marriage is wrong, but correct on national defense.

    As an Independent who is a Social Liberal that is strong on defense, I don't have to drink the kool aid of either side.

    As a partisan, you do.

    As I said, stick around. You'll be fun.  

    Parent

    Ah (none / 0) (#91)
    by kovie on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 12:01:47 PM EST
    but I never said that I approved or disapproved of what Clinton did in this or any other situation, just that one, bringing him up in defense of what Bush has done is lame, typical and irrelevant, and two, NOTHING Clinton ever did even begins to compare with what Bush has done. Anyone who disputes that is either a liar, an idiot or insane. Literally.

    Clinton gets a guy fired and maybe abuses the WH travel office, Bush gets 500,000+ killed for NOTHING. Same thing, of course. Wrong is wrong, duh.

    Of course you brought up Clinton to justify Bush. To claim otherwise is to lie, and quite transparently. What, you brought him up because you just felt like it, and it was meant as a total non-sequitor? Yeah...

    Here's a non-sequitor for you: David Vitter in diapers getting spanked by a New Orleans prostitute who is not his wife while condemning Clinton for marital infidelity and dishonesty. IOKIYAR, right? Waaah, mommie!

    And supporting Bush's foreign policy as being strong on national defense pretty? I'm still cracking up over that one. That's right up there with "Fair and Balanced" and "The terrorists are in their last throes, if you will". As Tweety puts it, HAH!

    Don't you find it kind of embarrassing to have flunked out of wingnut troll school? What do you tell all the other 12 year old boys during recess?

    Parent

    "The Google" is your friend (none / 0) (#49)
    by RedHead on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 10:00:14 PM EST

    The original blood sport was hunting, and the blood sport that underlies James B. Stewart's chronicle of the Whitewater troubles is a hunt as well. The theme is set forth tersely in two sentences from the torn-up note found in Vincent Foster's briefcase after his suicide: "I was not meant for the job or the spotlight of public life in Washington. Here ruining people is considered sport."

    Beneath the main narrative, almost like an undertow, is an account of the players of the blood sport -- the pursuers -- at work toppling reputations and, conceivably, administrations as well.

    A-Hunting We Will Go



    Parent
    So I assume that you're ok (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by kovie on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 04:35:52 PM EST
    with Gordon Smith's statement last year that the administration's Iraq policies "may even be criminal". Or IOKIYAR? Some clarification, please.

    And you gotta love that little racist dig there. Real clever. Should I bring the collard greens and corn bread?

    Parent

    sounds good to me. (none / 0) (#11)
    by scribe on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 04:30:54 PM EST
    here. fwiw.

    Anyway,

    "Redeploying out of Iraq with the same combination of arrogance and incompetence with which the Bush administration deployed our young men and women into Iraq is completely unacceptable, and our troops deserve far better," said [Clinton spokesman Philippe] Reines, who said military leaders should offer a withdrawal plan rather than "a political plan to attack those who question them."

    As she runs for president, the New York senator has ratcheted up her criticism of the Bush administration's war effort, answering critics of her 2002 vote to authorize the Iraq invasion by saying she would end the war if elected president.
    iow, should Bush redeploy before the '08 elections, Hillary and the Dems are already planning to use that action - and its inevitable complications - to be the source of much Demo political hay at Bush's and/or the Repubs expense.

    And if Bush does redeploy, and she's elected, she can then be the hero who "cleans up" Bush's mess from those complications.

    But if Bush doesn't redeploy, and she's elected, she'll be the one responsible for redeploying the troops - and dealing with its inevitable complications.

    Not so much opportunity to be a hero in that scenario.

    Edelman's letter does offer a passing indication the Pentagon might, in fact, be planning how to withdraw, saying: "We are always evaluating and planning for possible contingencies. As you know, it is long-standing departmental policy that operational plans, including contingency plans, are not released outside of the department."
    But Ms. Clinton almost assuredly already knew that, of course. But despite knowing that, that doesn't stop her from suggesting that there are no plans - just for the political hay it will cause.

    God I sure hope I can look myself in the mirror after BTD's response to this...

    S.U.O., (5.00 / 1) (#20)
    by ironicname on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 06:29:39 PM EST
    "We are always evaluating and planning for possible contingencies...
    But Ms. Clinton almost assuredly already knew that, of course."

    Do you really think that after the total and utter mess that this administration has made of Iraq, the illegal and false reasons for the invasion, the strategic bone headed choices and actions adopted such as:
    disbanding the Iraqi army,
    Allowing looting togo on unchecked after the invasion,
    hireing unaccountable contractors to provide basic services,
    hireing unaccountable contractors to provide security,
    midnight house raids,
    sanctioned torture, etc
    that anyone should trust them to plan appropriately or to even pour piss out of a boot without printed instructions on the heel?
    She had to ask that, to not ask about future planning would be a sign of incompetence on Hillary's part.


    Parent

    and that I think she's savvy enough to realize that it's very likely that whomever is responsible for a redeployment will end up in a world of hurt. And that she doesn't want to be that person.

    This, however, was awesome:

    that anyone should trust them to plan appropriately or to even pour piss out of a boot without printed instructions on the heel?
    I can't wait to use it and pretend I made it up myself...

    Parent
    Fun with statistics (5.00 / 1) (#65)
    by Repack Rider on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:43:01 AM EST
    it's very likely that whomever is responsible for a redeployment will end up in a world of hurt.

    Of course.  If 70% of the American population support it, it must be unpopular.

    Parent

    Must be political suicide. (none / 0) (#66)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:48:11 AM EST
    Yep.

    Parent
    Ok guys, (1.00 / 0) (#69)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 12:16:19 PM EST
    In case you guys really don't understand the point, I'll give it one more go.
    "Redeploying out of Iraq with the same combination of arrogance and incompetence with which the Bush administration deployed our young men and women into Iraq is completely unacceptable, and our troops deserve far better," said [Clinton spokesman Philippe] Reines, who said military leaders should offer a withdrawal plan rather than "a political plan to attack those who question them."
    It looks to me, anyway, from that quote that some  Dems have done their own "wargaming" and have recognized how much opportunity there is for any "redeployment" to go sour on many, many, levels.

    Therefor,

    iow, should Bush redeploy before the '08 elections, Hillary and the Dems are already planning to use that action - and its inevitable complications - to be the source of much Demo political hay at Bush's and/or the Repubs expense.

    And if Bush does redeploy, and she's elected, she can then be the hero who "cleans up" Bush's mess from those complications.

    But if Bush doesn't redeploy, and she's elected, she'll be the one responsible for redeploying the troops - and dealing with [the] inevitable complications [that would be the direct result of her leadership, not someone else's].

    Not so much opportunity to be a hero in that scenario.



    Parent
    Awesome! SOU, (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by ironicname on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:48:05 PM EST

    "This, however, was awesome:

    that anyone should trust them to plan appropriately or to even pour piss out of a boot without printed instructions on the heel?

    I can't wait to use it and pretend I made it up myself..."


    You should do that - it would display as much integrity and adherence to truth as the rest of your posts.  


    Parent
    Pentagon plan (none / 0) (#37)
    by sab on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 08:25:30 PM EST
    I thought the Pentagon was supposed to have plan for every conceivable contingency. I don't believe for a minute that they went into Iraq without maintaining plans for how to get out, regardless of what Rumsfeld wanted. This is outrageous that they will not communicate those plans to members of the Armed Services Committee, who all have the appropriate security clearances.

    Surprise!! He's a CHICKEN HAWK (none / 0) (#40)
    by RedHead on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 08:44:45 PM EST
    I clicked on the link to his bio, and at the end it says he spent 1968-1972 at Cornell.

    Deferment, Deferment, Deferment.

    I looked for his birth date, but it's not listed.  With that info I could tell you his astrological sign and his Selective Service Lottery number.  I'm setting the over/under at 75.

    I raise this because he specifically cites Vietnam, yet "was too busy" to put on a uniform and fight.

    I can't help this (1.00 / 0) (#60)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:47:09 AM EST
    If you are going to rant about his service, about which you actually know nothing, am I to believe the following?

    1. You did not support Clinton1.

    2. You do not support any politician/government offical who did not serve.

    3. You believe that anyone who has not served in the military should not comment about any military affairs, including Iraq and Vietnam?


    Parent
    The point (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by jondee on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:48:20 PM EST
    is, that generally, in the "grand" tradition that you subscribe to, the most vehement voices for military intervention -- probobly in compensation for some self-percieved flaw -- are those that have nevr gotten their well manicured hands dirty.

    And than they have laughable gumption to talk about other people who "wont fight".

    Parent

    Anyone else see K.O. tee off on Edelman (none / 0) (#42)
    by scribe on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 08:49:51 PM EST
    during Countdown tonight?  LEd the show with a Special Comment and then had Kerry on, both making clear (a) this was a WH political hit job on Hillary because she's a Dem frontrunner, (b) Edelman's a long-term neo-con nuisance (my polite term), and (c) the Dems aren't going to put up with this crap any more.

    On (a) and (b) KO was brutal in his comment, and Kerry explicit.  On (c) - I'll wait and see.

    Edelman may have been the straw that made the donkey find its spine.  We'll see....

    What do they plan to do ?? (none / 0) (#44)
    by RedHead on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 08:56:22 PM EST

    "the Dems aren't going to put up with this crap any more."

    What do the have in mind?  They're certainly capable.  I remember when Howard Wolfson et al. jumped on David Geffen's NYT interview.  Did the Clinton campaign respond today?

    Parent

    wy dontcha watch the replay of KO (none / 0) (#46)
    by scribe on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 09:32:48 PM EST
    or check out Crooks and Liars to see what Kerry had to say.  I don't recall any specific promises/threats, just rage....

    Parent
    Gambling in the casino (none / 0) (#43)
    by RedHead on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 08:51:33 PM EST
    does anyone think this was done without coordination with Rove's swift-boat shop or the neo-con political complex (ie weekly std, AEI)?

    I mention the latter because McCain recently started attacking Clinton by name, and I don't think it's for fundraising/red-meat purposes.  

    Campaign Kickoff !!! (none / 0) (#48)
    by RedHead on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 09:49:33 PM EST
    You can mark this as the first day in the 2008 presidential campaign.  The day the "republicans" launched their first attack.  It always starts a year ahead of time.  For example, Rove began smearing General Clark the day he announced in 2003.

    That they choose Clinton as there first direct effort is interesting.  Though they did try to smear Obama earlier in the year, indirectly, via their surrogates in the noise machine.

    This is what you should expect over the next 16 months.  Smear, fear, hysteria, dirty tricks (push polls, voter suppression, etc.), McCarthyism, mudding the waters, and run of the mill negative branding.

    It'll be interesting.  This time they won't have their traditional advantages of money, incumbency, and back-lash politics (anti-ERA, anti-integration, anti-gays in the military, anti-taxes, the price of gas, inflation, Bill Clinton's sex life, etc.).  

    Of course, Tweety will always be interested in Clinton's sex life.  Funny how he's NOW angry with the press for covering Vitter's affairs.  Funny how he can't see the real issues of hypocrisy and illegal actions.


    I don't think so (none / 0) (#55)
    by libertarian soldier on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 07:09:23 AM EST
    Having spent three tours in embassies and one in OSD working with DoS on a daily basis, the idea that a career foreign service office could be a "BushCo Hack" stikes me as ludicous, unless you meant a "BushCo 41 supporter".  Without exception, every career FSO I have worked with--including my wife--despises both Bush43 and Cheney.
    And I think calling for Gates to fire him is also ludicrous.  Having worked in the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy, it is literally impossible for me to imagine that he sent that letter on his own without the SECDEF's awareness. All responses to members of Congress go through an elaborate vetting process managed by the SECDEF's executive office, much less one going to a member of the SASC--and the current leading Democratic Party presidential candidate.
    And as for "Edelman seems not to know that the Pentagon is not the commanding officer of the Senate", I would say he certainly knows that the commanding officer of the Armed Forces of the United States doesn't sit in the Senate.
    Lastly, having been there when the three stooges were running the show, I will certainly confess my willingness to cut any of the current top three in OSD a lot of slack.

    Hmmm (none / 0) (#63)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 09:16:17 AM EST
    You sound a bit like a BushCo hack yourself frankly.

    Parent
    Thanks (none / 0) (#79)
    by libertarian soldier on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:44:32 PM EST
    I don't think I have enough rank to qualify, but I appreciate your willingness to consider it possible.

    Parent
    Stating facts through (none / 0) (#76)
    by Wile ECoyote on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:14:31 PM EST
    experience here will not win friends.  Google and Wiki with the ability to read blogs are the only experience that counts.  

    Parent
    Ahhh (none / 0) (#80)
    by libertarian soldier on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 08:45:26 PM EST
    Thanks, I will try and remember that in the future.

    Parent
    It (none / 0) (#81)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 06:29:14 AM EST
    took me a while to figure it out.  

    Parent
    Not quite true (none / 0) (#92)
    by Alien Abductee on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 01:08:12 PM EST
    And if you think so, no wonder you provoke the dismissal you get here.

    Draw on your experiences and provide insights from them, for sure. But provide independent sources (links) to back up what you say. Unsupported "just because I say so" is what doesn't count here. I don't share the political perspective of many of the commenters here on the rightward side of the spectrum but I'm willing to listen and learn from views that are presented on the basis of expertise, an honest philosophical perspective, or independently verifiable facts. What counts less than nothing (with me at least) is poorly sourced opinion masquerading as fact, and a track record of same, particularly when it's easily contradicted by multiple more reputable sources with more accurate track records in those blogs and wikis you so casually diss.

    Parent

    Ah, (none / 0) (#95)
    by Wile ECoyote on Sun Jul 22, 2007 at 04:31:46 AM EST
    So BTD was just asking for links in his usual polite way.  Sorry.  

    Parent
    Ah, politeness (none / 0) (#106)
    by Alien Abductee on Wed Jul 25, 2007 at 05:25:31 PM EST
    Well, that's a different matter...

    Parent