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Gitmo: Pass the Pistachios, More Harry Potter Please

Washington Post columnist Jackson Diehl has returned from a trip to Guantanamo where he was allowed to sit in on interrogations.

Diehl reports the Pentagon has shifted from harsh interrogation techniques to ones that stress "the milk of human kindness."

He writes that 360 detainees remain at Guantanamo and 100 interrogation sessions occur each week.

Detainees being worked by the staff of 21 interrogators are invited to leave their small cells for private rooms typically equipped with televisions and comfortable chairs. About five times out of seven, one official told me, the prisoners are asked no questions; instead, pistachios, Subway and McDonald's sandwiches, and other food treats are served, and the session consists of light conversation or the watching of a movie.

Special treats are offered to those who cooperate: One prisoner, I was told, has become an avid reader of the Harry Potter books and was offered access to the latest installment in exchange for responsiveness.

The Good news is Gitmo seems to be winding down.

Fifteen Saudi prisoners were sent home last week; 80 other detainees have been cleared for transfer. One senior official said that he believed only 50 to 75 prisoners here cannot be either sent home or put on trial.

This means of the 360 prisoners still there, most for more than five years, 300 of them have been found not to be a threat or to warrant criminal charges. What a black stain for the U.S. All the pistachios and Harry Potter books in the world can't erase that.

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    I can only hope that ... (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Meteor Blades on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 03:02:30 PM EST
    ...when the next President arrives at the White House, among the first things on her or his plate will not only be the closing of Gitmo, but the signing of an executive order prohibiting the future use of jurisdictionless, no-man's-lands to hold prisoners (whether they are called "enemy combatants" or something else), and banning extraordinary rendition, secret overseas prisons and torture.

    There is a lot more to accomplish than those items, of course, but it would sure be a good start.

    We can hope for... (none / 0) (#23)
    by desertswine on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 02:25:51 PM EST
    no more of this. The Law Council of Australia's opinion of the David Hicks affair.

    Parent
    gabriel, (5.00 / 2) (#4)
    by cpinva on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 06:36:52 PM EST
    sometimes you out caricature yourself. if you'll recall, dear leader claimed the geneva conventions don't apply to the US, or anyone we capture, anywhere. so, as usual, your "argument" lacks intellectual heft.

    according to the administration, there are no "POW's" at gitmo. as such, they needn't be treated to the niceties required by the geneva conventions anyway, even if bush's lawyers had somehow stumbled on them.

    question for you: how many red herrings does it take to make a full meal?

    Abandoning international law now? (1.00 / 2) (#5)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 06:59:46 PM EST
    cp, I had forgotten that you'd decided to agree with the President on this issue. That being the case, naturally, you wouldn't agree that the detainees are entitled to the protection of international law. Jeralyn apparently agrees with you, but I don't.

    Parent
    As I said once before... (1.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Gabriel Malor on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 04:13:32 PM EST
    This means of the 360 prisoners still there, most for more than five years, 300 of them have been found not to be a threat or to warrant criminal charges. What a black stain for the U.S.

    Jeralyn, by now I know you cannot pretend to ignorance. Andy yet you still write things like what I've quoted above.

    Two things with regard to the Guantanamo detainees, captivity, and criminal charges:

    (1) The Geneva Convention (III) prevents POWs and from being charged with crimes and prosecuted. They can be held and that is all. They cannot be charged with making war for their country. Such charges would themselves be a war crime.

    For those detainees who are not considered POWs, but rather unlawful combatants, GenCon (III) also provides that they can be detained like POWs, but that they can also be prosecuted for the crimes that made their combatancy unlawful. Note that is a possibility, not a command.

    So, either way you look at these prisoners--as POWs or as unlawful combatants--they can, as required by the GenCons, be held without charges until the cessation of hostilities. This brings me to my second point:

    (2) International and domestic law require that POWs be released at the "cessation of hostilities." The idea was that combatants could be held so long as it appeared that they could rejoin the competing forces. Justice O'Connor noted in Hamdi that she (and the Court) expected that this principle would be honored even in an unconventional war where an official cease-fire is, due to the type of conflict, unlikely.

    It appears that the Bush Administration took her at her word. Hence, the releases.

    Again, I want to emphasise that while torture is a clear violation of international law, merely holding combatants in captivity is the explicit course of action provided by international law.

    Jeralyn, you call it a "black stain" for the U.S. to have held combatants without charging them, but in this case it is you who are calling for a violation of international law.

    Thank God Gitmo is winding down (none / 0) (#1)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 02:40:14 PM EST


    Yes, but meanwhile, we are killing them (none / 0) (#6)
    by oculus on Mon Jul 23, 2007 at 11:24:33 PM EST
    w/transfats.

    Parent
    Shrek 3 with my son just about wiped me (none / 0) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 08:09:44 AM EST
    out.  How can the third installment of a cartoon go on for that long?  Having to watch Shrek 3 with my interrogators can't be considered torture free.

    Parent
    Be very discreet. You are giving the enemy ideas. (none / 0) (#15)
    by oculus on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 01:03:33 PM EST
    The Consequences of Release (none / 0) (#8)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 10:49:38 AM EST
    Jeralyn has long advocated for the release of the combatant-detainees held at Guantanamo Bay. Just last year she wrote:

    Those being held without criminal charges should be repatriated to their own countries and if those countries won't take them, the U.S. should find other countries that will accept them.

    Setting aside the issue of charging combatants as common criminals (something forbidden by international law, as I discuss upthread), what are the practical consequences of releasing combatant-detainees before the end of hostilities?

    Meet Abdullah Mehsud. This man should never have been released. But he had vocal advocates claiming he was not dangerous and that his detention was not justified. They were wrong, and as a result many people have died.

    After his release Mehsud was happy to tell his story:

    Mehsud said he spent two years at Guantanamo Bay after being captured in 2002 in Afghanistan fighting alongside the Taliban. At the time he was carrying a false Afghan identity card, and while in custody he maintained the fiction that he was an innocent Afghan tribesman, he said. U.S. officials never realized he was a Pakistani with deep ties to militants in both countries, he added.

    "I managed to keep my Pakistani identity hidden all these years," he told Gulf News in a recent interview. Since his return to Pakistan in March, Pakistani newspapers have written lengthy accounts of Mehsud's hair and looks, and the powerful appeal to militants of his fiery denunciations of the United States. "We would fight America and its allies," he said in one interview, "until the very end."

    Since his release, he used his Pakistani contacts to lead the Taliban insurgents operating in that country. He has made attacks on US, NATO, and Pakistani troops. He has kidnapped civilians and engaged in indiscriminate bombing. His latest attempt on the Pakistani Interior Minister Aftab Ahmad Khan Sherpao resulted in 31 deaths and hundreds of wounded civilians at a political rally.

    "But," say liberals, "we can't keep these men locked up. They must be returned to their countries." A lot of good these advocates have done for all of Mehsud's victims.

    Fortunately, Mehsud's story has ended. He killed himself with a grenade this morning when Pakistani security forces surrounded his hideout.

    International law allows the detention of combatants until the end of hostilities so as to prevent combatants who have been removed from the fighting from returning to the fight. So pro-release advocates, like Jeralyn, have to ask themselves: why do you want combatants to keep killing? Why do you want to ignore international law?

    Gabe (none / 0) (#9)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 11:13:52 AM EST
    You are the lawyer (law student) and seem to have a good command of international law. But, there appears to be many ambiguities argued among many people, lawyers included, over the status of the people captured and held in Guantanamo.

    To a non-lawyer such as myself, it seems people argue over whether these people are POW's or Enemy combatants, and also over the term "end of hostilities," when the combatants are not associated with a nation and War has not been declared. Again, I am not a lawyer, so you have the advantage when you speak of international law.

    But, my common sense approach says that we should be able to charge a crime against these individuals. 9/11 was more of a crime in my view than an act of war. The perpetrators who helped plan and facilitate the plan should have been tracked down and charged with a crime for their acts against Americans and put on trial before the world. Justice is not always perfect and some individuals accused or suspected of being involved may not be able to be convicted. Some may go on to commit heinous crimes in the future. But a commitment to justice and the process should be preserved. If international law doesn't allow some individuals to be extricated for crime committed against Americans and our interests, then we have to work within those laws and change laws to allow  these criminals to be brought to justice. Sometimes this will expose Americans to charges in other nations for crimes committed, however.

    It's not perfect, but we still should have a commitment to justice and holding combatants indefinitely (until the end of hostilities in a war without end against people willing to harm us) without representation in Guantanamo doesn't meet my common sense standard of justice, nor most others I would suspect.

    Parent

    Crime or War? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 12:24:14 PM EST
    Peaches,

    The question of whether we are engaged in war or crime control has been a central feature of debates over how we are to treat captured enemies in the war on terror. It's a tough question, but it's one that needs to be answered definitively. The U.S. government and the American public need to be clear about what kind of endeavor we are engaged in for several reasons: (1) it will help keep our own forces from exceeding standards of behavior; (2) it sets a clear example for other countries participating in the war on terror; (3) it provides straightforward precedent for similar endeavors in the future ; and (4) from a purely political standpoint, it keeps war opponents from using ambiguity to make rhetorical points.

    Regarding this last point, make no mistake: Jeralyn and others like her (including the NY Times editorial board on several occasions) score rhetorical points by claiming that combatant-detainees should be charged with crimes or released. But to make those points they rely on a few things about their readers: ignorance of international law and ambiguities about the current detention regime.

    I always try and step in when I see people misunderstanding or outright ignoring international law. But I can't do anything to undue the operational ambiguity with which the war has been pursued. I can only welcome with relief those occasions in which the Supreme Court, Congress, or the President have stepped in to try and straighten things out.

    Peaches, as I said, this topic has been discussed many times before. But one of the best treatments of it I have seen is that of Professor Kerr over at Volokh Conspiracy. Last month he wrote about the two systems America has created to deal with hostile actors: war and criminal justice. I encourage you to go over and look at what he wrote and also at the very interesting comments. Here is the key excerpt that may aid our discussion:

    Within each system, there is a balance of factors at play in creating the rules. As a general matter, however, war is about self-protection: we try to disable the enemy from attacking us, and we take whatever measures are necessary to do that. There are limits, of course, conventions as to the laws of war and rules that each side adopts. But by and large the goal of self-protection by disabling future attacks takes priority.

    The modern criminal justice system is different. Incapacitation is only a small goal of that system. Rather, we are primarily interested in punishing to discourage future harmful acts and to further the ends of justice. We create law enforcement offices to investigate and prosecute the acts to make this possible, but we intentionally give them only limited powers because we don't want them to be the problem rather than the solution. We make the police jump through a lot of hoops and face punishment for breaking the rules: they have to prove their cases in particular ways, subject to strict evidentiary rules, confrontation rights, the exclusionary rule for search and seizure violations, and the like. The intuition is that limited police powers can prevent abuses while giving the police enough authority to investigate a reasonable amount of crime.

    What we are faced with now is deciding whether certain acts fall into the war response or the criminal justice response to hostile actors. Some cases are quite clearly one or the other. For example, an Iraqi Republican Guard or Taliban soldier caught on the battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan fighting against our invasion clearly belongs in the "war response" category. On the other hand, a lone American who attacks a ticket-counter in a U.S. city, even if politically motivated, belongs in the "criminal justice response" category.

    The questions become harder when the hostile acts don't fit neatly into either of the two groups:
    (1) What do we do about quasi-military groups fighting on the battlefield? Is that war or criminal justice?
    (2) What do we do about quasi-military groups who send operatives to conduct attacks in the U.S? War or criminal justice?
    (3) What do we do about U.S. citizens who fight against us on the battlefield? War or criminal justice?
    (4) What about U.S. citizens who want to conduct attacks in the U.S. under the direction of quasi-military groups who are fighting us overseas? War or criminal justice?

    Professor Kerr notes that the Supreme Court was faced with this question in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld and answered by giving us a balancing test under the Fifth Amendment:

    Under the Due Process approach offered in Hamdi, an individual's procedural rights -- what trial they get to test their detentions -- is a sliding scale depending on who the person detained is, where they were detained, why, citizenship, etc. As I see it, it's a mushy balancing test that ends up largely replicating the continuum from crime to war; it's a blend of the crime model and the war model. The closer a case gets to a traditional crime category based on known and acknowledged criteria, the more Due Process rights resemble a criminal trial. On the other hand, the closer a case gets to the traditional war category based on known and acknowledged criteria, the more those rights resemble the traditional standards used in war.

    I think this is a reasonable method for determining how we treat detainees. It provides, as you write, "a commitment to justice" that allows us to uphold international law and satisfy our American support for due process.

    Parent

    I agree (none / 0) (#13)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 12:43:49 PM EST
    I think this is a reasonable method for determining how we treat detainees. It provides, as you write, "a commitment to justice" that allows us to uphold international law and satisfy our American support for due process
    .

    On the sliding scale between Crimes and acts of war. However, I think the longer that these combatants are held in Guantanamo and the hostilities go on, the closer the scale should slide towards a crime and away from war. There should be a limit to the terms of holding combatants until hostilities cease when we are fighting an ongoing War that we are told will go on indefinitely. Holding such individuals without some sort of formal charges or trial and representation for what could be the remainder of their lives seems to me to be a major violation of the commitment to justice most Americans or participants in democracy hold even for the most horrible and despicable criminals.

    Parent

    Peaches, I think the point is (none / 0) (#14)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 12:53:06 PM EST
    Holding such individuals without some sort of formal charges or trial and representation for what could be the remainder of their lives seems to me to be a major violation of the commitment to justice most Americans or participants in democracy hold even for the most horrible and despicable criminals.
    some, perhaps many, maybe even most of them, are not criminals. They're enemy combatants/soldiers, and they're at war with us.

    Deciding who's a criminal and who's a combatant is the crux of the issue, no?

    Or are you saying that that decision should be made via a trial? But Gabe says such trials are illegal under GenCon? Catch 22?

    Parent

    Are they criminals? (none / 0) (#17)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 01:12:41 PM EST
    SUO, you note that at least some of the combatant-detainees are not criminals. For the moment, that remains true under international law. It's probably also true under domestic laws and under the laws of the nations in which they were captured.

    But that's only the case under current law. I think Peaches is saying is that maybe we should change the laws so that they can be treated as criminals rather than as war prisoners.

    The main reason cited for changing the law that way is that it will give combatant-detainees greater protections than they receive under current international and domestic law.

    Of course, many of us will ask: "Why should we do that?"

    Parent

    Nice, I think you got right to the crux (none / 0) (#18)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 01:18:18 PM EST
    of the issue.

    Why should we treat enemy soldiers as though they were criminals and not as though they were enemy soldiers?

    Parent

    The crux (none / 0) (#19)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 01:47:05 PM EST
    I agree on.

    Why we would to that is because we are striving to be better and pure and committed to a sense of justice for all.

    The problem, again - as I see it, is over the duration of this war. For a war with a foreseeable ending, I am in favor of holding detainees until the cessation of hostilities.

    We need new laws governing ongoing laws where we are fighting movements and institutions that are not affiliated with nations declaring wars on us, but rather groups committed to harm us. In the latter case we are not really at war and the individuals fit the category of criminals more that soldiers, imo.

    So, no, Sarc, we do not have a trial over their status, but rather we have a responsibility to charge them with something or release them. Perhaps their release should be conditional, due to their status and laws should be written governing their release. Such as, electronic surveillance with embedded chips or a release into our nation and giving them citizenship along with responsibilities that come with this. I am just suggesting here and obviously there are problems. But doing nothing and holding individuals indefinitely as POW in a war without end is beneath our potential as a nation to be just and pure and an example to Democracies everywhere.  

    Parent

    I hear you Peaches (none / 0) (#21)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 02:16:38 PM EST
    things are a murkier when you're not at war with the gvt of another established and/or recognized nation.

    I do believe the Taliban and AQ are (ok, were) affiliated with the nation of Afghanistan and its gvt. I'm not sure that because they're not affiliated with that gvt any more means we should treat them any differently since they're still fighting us.

    However, regardless of who (or what's) at war with whom - every war is, was, and forever will be, indefinite.

    No?

    Parent

    Yes, (none / 0) (#22)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 02:24:45 PM EST
    but, in most cases there are commitments and sacrifice made to meet those commitments by the entire citizenry to end the war. I don't believe we have made those commitments and sacrifices in the war endeavor we are currently engaged in. In the example you cite, we drove the Taliban from power and are not currently in a War with them. If anyone is in a war with them it would be the current gov't of Afghanistan and the detainees should be released into their custody.

    I agree with the murky part, I just believe we can do better than Guantanamo, even if it were just greater oversight and inspection services by international organizations making sure that detainees are treated humanly and not tortured in ways that we know they have been and are still being.

    Parent

    Interesting point (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 02:31:56 PM EST
    If anyone is in a war with them it would be the current gov't of Afghanistan and the detainees should be released into their custody.
    However, how do you think the gvt of Afghanistan would treat these guys?

    I don't have a problem with greater oversight of Gitmo at least as far as ensuring treatment consistent with GenCon.

    Parent

    Probably, not very well (none / 0) (#25)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 02:41:53 PM EST
    if the US wanted them to be treated harshly. It the US wanted them to be treated well and there was oversight from other countries as well, they may be given adequate treatment.

    I think what makes the whole Guantanamo deal smell so awful is that although most reasonable people would not have a problem with greater oversight there consistent with the GenCon, the current administration does.

    Parent

    Yeah, I really can't see giving up control (none / 0) (#26)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 03:06:18 PM EST
    of these guys' detentions. They're members of groups/movements that continue their hostilities against us (in Afghanistan, at the very least, and we're in Afghanistan as an institution that's affiliated with the gvt of that nation.)


    Parent
    For accuracy's sake (none / 0) (#27)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 03:27:21 PM EST
    They're alleged to be members of these groups. We have discovered that some who have been held there were not members of these groups, but merely got caught up in the mad rush to escape Afghanistan as the War began. This is what is wrong with not having oversight and letting the gov't act as it sees fit without the checks and balances necessary to keep the gov't from acting as the tyrants and dictators we stand opposed to.

     

    Parent

    Yeah. (none / 0) (#28)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 03:36:50 PM EST
    They're alleged to be members of these groups.
    I thought that was what you were generally getting at up-thread when I asked you about trials to determine if they were enemy combatants or not...

    Parent
    Cessation of Hostilities (none / 0) (#16)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 01:06:37 PM EST
    There should be a limit to the terms of holding combatants until hostilities cease when we are fighting an ongoing War that we are told will go on indefinitely.

    Peaches, all wars are wars of indefinite length when they are still ongoing. For example, German or Japanese prisoners in 1944 could plausibly have said "our detention is indefinite; we could be here for the rest of our lives."

    Fortunately, we know that "cessation of hostilities" does not rely on archaic (and irrelevant) ideas about whether a war is "officially declared" or "officially ended in cease-fire." Cessation of hostilities occurs when there is no possibility that a released prisoner will return to his forces and continue fighting.

    For example, in Hamdi the Supreme Court was faced with the question of when hostilities will have ended. They noted that Hamdi was a part of the Taliban. Therefore, he can be held under international law (primarily the Geneva Conventions) and domestic law (primarily the AUMF 2001) until the U.S. is no longer fighting the Taliban. At that point, cessation of hostilities will have occurred and the U.S. would be legally bound to free him.

    That reasoning extends to members of Al Qaeda and other organizations or governments engaging us in battle. The Supreme Court, clearly concerned about the possibility of unending war, went on to write:

    [W]e understand Congress' grant of authority for the use of "necessary and appropriate force" to include the authority to detain for the duration of the relevant conflict, and our understanding is based on longstanding law-of-war principles. If the practical circumstances of a given conflict are entirely unlike those of the conflicts that informed the development of the law of war, that understanding may unravel. But that is not the situation we face as of this date.

    There is some interesting discussion of this and other Guantanamo topics here.

    Parent

    Your interpretation, of course (none / 0) (#20)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 01:57:04 PM EST
    Fortunately, we know[Gabe believes] that "cessation of hostilities" does not rely on archaic (and irrelevant) ideas about whether a war is "officially declared" or "officially ended in cease-fire." [Gabe believes, again]Cessation of hostilities occurs when there is no possibility that a released prisoner will return to his forces and continue fighting.

    I disagree, obviously and so do the ones who are leading us in this so called war effort.

    Parent

    Btw, (none / 0) (#10)
    by Peaches on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 11:39:34 AM EST
    "But," say liberals, "we can't keep these men locked up. They must be returned to their countries." A lot of good these advocates have done for all of Mehsud's victims.

    I'm not sure only liberals say this and also not sure that that all liberals don't want to keep these people locked up (I know of one social liberal who doesn't). I respect you making your arguments for keeping threatening individuals in captivity in accordance with international law for the security of our nation. But your attempt at castigating liberals for having a commitment to individual rights at risk of raising the risk exposure to victims is disingenuous when you attempt politicize the argument. These liberals you speak of would love for the world to be a perfectly safe and secure place for everyone to live in and where there are no victims of heinous crimes or war acts. However, this is a unattainable goal and the striving for a more safe and secure world needs to be balanced with the protection of individual rights so nations cannot indiscriminately place individuals into captivity.

    Parent

    Aight. (none / 0) (#12)
    by Gabriel Malor on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 12:29:28 PM EST
    The label "liberal" seems to be a sensitive one for many people these days. That being the case, what I should have written was "But," say pro-release advocates, "we can't..."

    Parent