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Supporting The Troops

By Big Tent Democrat, Section War In Iraq
Posted on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 11:04:35 AM EST
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There has been a kerfuffle about a TNR piece by a soldier in Iraq. The piece apparently describes some alleged atrocities. I have not read the piece as I am not a TNR subscriber. It has been a cause celebre in the Right Blogs. John Cole reports the soldier decided to reveal his true identity.

Memeorandum reports that the Right blogs have been in full bore attack mode against this US soldier fighting in Iraq.

I have no brief for the soldier. I do not even know what he wrote. I do find it ironic that supporting the troops is important for some only to the extent the soldier says what you want him to say.

Matt Yglesias, who knows what this was all about in terms of the soldier's article, writes some good stuff.

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    Supporting The Troops | 46 comments (46 topical)

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    As the legendary Eve Arden said... (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Dadler on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 11:27:28 AM EST
    ...in the film version of "Grease": "If you can't be an athlete, be an athletic supporter."  And these creeps are being real jock straps -- complete nut cups, in other words.

    All I know is my brother is gone shortly for another tour of hell in Iraq.  And none of these idiots are doing a thing to help him.  Except holding up the big "We're Number 1!!" foam finger, which they might as well shove up their taints.

    These are the same folks who thought the Walter Reed Scandal was mostly about liberals making a fuss about something.

    Faux cue.

    This is my first exposure to the story (5.00 / 4) (#3)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 11:37:41 AM EST
    Read what you have up.  Wonder why the right wing blogs find what he wrote about so shocking?  Soldiers go whack living like they are living 24 hours a day 7 days a week.  I have heard some unappealling things from soldiers mouths these past four years as they attempt to find their way through all of this.  If they didn't have a problem dehumanizing others before they went to Iraq they probably will when they get back and some of them will get over it eventually and cry mostly alone I'm sure as they recover their soul and some won't come back at all mentally or physically.  I wrote about a soldier who returned from Iraq with a small melted ball of metal he claimed to be melted fillings from Iraq corpses.  It wasn't people that he killed himself but bodies that they came upon.  He was a tank commander and he was an abusive sort of person before he left for the Iraq War.  He said that he used jumper cables connected to the tank to melt the fillings in the corpses he found with them.  He was also discharged from the Army after his first tour and none of us who are interested can officially find out why, but what he claimed to do disturbed people so badly at Orange they just couldn't deal with it.  Of course that was before it was obvious that we needed to leave.  War is crazy making though and so ugly and should never be entered into except when no other solution remains to protect our people from certain death and doubtless destruction.

    BTD, I guess because these soldiers (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 11:53:09 AM EST
    don't sound very cool, very composed, or very much like anything we can be enormously proud and puffed up about Redstate and others just can't handle it.  I was pretty ticked about A Whitney's black humor the other day and Redstate doesn't approve of the really really black humor their soldiers are using either in the situation they find themselves in.  It doesn't equate with the strong brave capable liberty loving apple pie eating soldiers they have convinced themselves that they have.  The dog ordeal, it rings with me because I remember a past dog ordeal at Al Asad that first year.  Americans love dogs.  It is hard for a lot of us hanging out in Korea because Koreans love dogs too.....they are tasty.  Our culture views dogs as man's best friend and there are wild dogs all over Iraq and they were at Al Asad too.  Our soldiers tried to befriend some of the wild dogs on the base and different units adopted a wild puppy that became very much like all the dogs they had at home.  Some soldiers did get bit though occassionally attempting to befriend different dogs running around and then rabies hit that summer.  The post commander had no choice but issue an order that all dogs in the area had to be shot.  Soldiers with less heart rounded up the young dogs living among the various units and shot them all under orders, the wilder dogs running about were shot when they could be.....to protect the people living on the post.  And War is Ugly in all of its splendor to Americans as it should be.

    Parent
    And war does things to human beings (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:05:09 PM EST
    Thanks.

    Parent
    Supporting the troops (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by aj12754 on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:26:29 PM EST
    I am a veteran (although not a veteran of combat) and I will say that there is a special place in hell for those (be they commanders or politicians or reporters or armchair soldiers or Dick "Five Deferments because I had better stuff to do" Cheney) who send young people into war without a clear understanding of what the enemy is capable of and what they, themselves, may be capable of under combat conditions.  That's why rules of engagement and the Geneva conventions and education on war crimes are so important ... there are two victims of atrocities -- the victim of the atrocity and the person who commits the atrocity.  

    Parent
    Tracy (1.00 / 0) (#38)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 08:20:46 AM EST
    Stray dogs are rounded up in every city in the US and put to death at some point if their owner doesn't claim them.

    Sad but true, and yes, it is a health issue.

    Parent

    Subscription not required (5.00 / 3) (#6)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 11:54:03 AM EST
    It's available under the free sign-up. The article is here - stunning in its indictment of what war can do to break down the bounds of what we take to be normal human morality. I thought he was heightening things to make his point, but he did make it.

    Thanks... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by desertswine on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:01:02 PM EST


    Parent
    and when they come home (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:38:10 PM EST
    they will have inadequate medical/psych care, lack of work (this gov't has done nothing to invest in jobs for the future and the economy is constricting tightly).  War is hell and we put them in the situation away from their kids, families and friends.  They also have no clue as to how long they will be away from their loved ones and that has to make the stress level jump out of the roof.  What damage is being done to the children of our armed forces who are growing up without one of their parents there for extended periods?  

    Who helps the kids deal with an absent parent?  Who helps the soldiers assimilate back into their own families?  

    Seeing unimaginable horrors has to take a severe psychological toll on many soldiers and although we do not have as many american casaulties as previous wars the emotional scars will have a significant impact on their families....

    Eh? (1.00 / 1) (#34)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:48:21 PM EST
    the economy is constricting tightly

    That must be some hellish fantasy world you're living in.

    Parent

    I am in the labor field (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 02:09:54 PM EST
    and it is.....GDP first quarter, have any idea what it was?  Have any idea the amount of layoffs are occuring at the moment?

    Parent
    Labor market (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 02:17:40 PM EST
    comparatively speaking to last year, we are down 23% from last years 189,000 jobs per month.  It is a tighter labor market which of course will constrict the economy.......

    In case you missed it (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Jlvngstn on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 02:29:22 PM EST
    WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- The U.S. economy slowed to a crawl in the first quarter, held back by falling investments in homes, shrinking inventories and a large trade gap, the Commerce Department reported Thursday.
    The economy grew at a 0.6% annualized pace in the quarter, revised down from the initial estimate of 1.3%, the government said in its second estimate of quarterly gross domestic product. It was the slowest growth since late 2002. Read the full government report.
    Economists surveyed by MarketWatch were expecting GDP to be revised to 0.7%. See Economic Calendar.
    The economy has grown just 1.9% in the past four quarters, well below the 3% growth most economists say is the long-run potential. It's the weakest year-over-year growth in four years.

    In case you missed it... (none / 0) (#42)
    by Gabriel Malor on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:13:46 AM EST
    GDP Grew 3.4% in Second Quarter As Core Inflation Readings Eased

    Parent
    Gabe (none / 0) (#43)
    by Peaches on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:33:51 AM EST
    Cmon,

    You are reaching. Jlv, said the economy was constricting and apparantly, at this time, a majority of investors are worried along with him. There are many stats that can be used to paint whatever picture you want and these stats come out are readjusted and on and on. We usually don't know about the status of the economy until months of puring over and adjusting stats. Your response was that he must be living in a hellish fantasy world for a completely reasonable and valid assessment of today's economy that is shared by many economists as well as investors.

    JLV, the economists, and the investors could be wrong in the end as predicted by the latest 2nd qrt GDP numbers, but to dismiss their assessment as a hellish fantasy is just a comment economics as the dismal science. Either way, the economy affects each of us differently and certainly many of our fellow citizens are living in a hellish world in economics terms that is grounded in reality.

    Parent

    Not to mention.... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:45:19 AM EST
    GDP is an awful way to measure economic wellness.

    An example I remember reading somewhere....a shopkeeper has a shop and a savings.  A vandal breaks his storefront window and it gets replaced.  The GDP goes up due to the purchase of new glass, but the shopkeepers savings is gone, and he is worse off.

    Parent

    The article (none / 0) (#47)
    by Jlvngstn on Mon Jul 30, 2007 at 10:34:32 AM EST
    He/She posted talks about the growth of the GDP 2nd qtr in the proper context.  Problem is, the article is about the constricting economy.  

    I read the WSJ every morning along the NYT and Trib, and most economists that i have been reading believe that we are in a very tight economy mostly due to sup-prime woes, housing peak and hedge funds smoke and mirrors.  

    I hope that I am wrong but some time around November, look for the market to "correct" itself with a big fat dip and a few bs earnings statements to be uncovered.

    In the meantime, keep running up debt it is the best way to defeat terrorism according to Bush.

    Parent

    Cognitive dissonance (none / 0) (#1)
    by Al on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 11:26:23 AM EST
    One of the commenters at Matt Yglesias' blog says it's a classical case of cognitive dissonance, and how people react. I think they have hit the nail on the head. Check out this very interesting interview on NPR of Elliot Aronson, one of the pioneers of the theory of cognitive dissonance.

    The right question: Is it True? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 11:49:20 AM EST
    I do find it ironic that supporting the troops is important for some only to the extent the soldier says what you want him to say.

    The issue is not that he is a soldier. And the idea that we should believe whatever he says just because he is a soldier is, well, silly.

    The issue is whether his stories are true. Just as BTD has noted many times, we shouldn't just believe whatever General Petraeus says without asking for the proof. In the same way, we shouldn't just believe the stories of an anonymous soldier without some proof.

    It's a good thing that we now know the identity of the author of these stories because now we can look and see if there is any truth to his claims. If the claims are true, then we can take steps to keep the alleged abuses from re-occurring and punish those who took part in them. If the claims are false, this fellow can be reprimanded for spreading lies about his fellow soldiers. Along the way, maybe we'll learn a little about why TNR put the uncorroborated writings of an anyonmous source front and center.

    We do know who he is now (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 11:54:53 AM EST
    and it has been confirmed that who he was serving with did find a mass grave containing children's corpses.  That has all been confirmed after the fact of his writings.

    Parent
    And his other claims? (none / 0) (#11)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:06:44 PM EST
    Militarytracy, it's good to see that fact-checking has begun. Of course, Saddam-era mass graves are no surprise. I'm more interested in privates wearing skulls on their heads; and privates driving Bradleys through curbs, concrete barriers, corners of buildings, stands in the market, and running over dogs.

    That seems like serious misconduct that should be addressed by superior officers.

    Parent

    Fact check everything Gabe (5.00 / 2) (#12)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:08:14 PM EST
    Your cohorts only attack that they do not like.

    be it stories or soldiers.

    Parent

    I don't share a lot of things (none / 0) (#16)
    by Militarytracy on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:27:18 PM EST
    told to me because I don't have permission to share them.  A lot of people I know didn't come back from Iraq the way they went either but stand a good chance of fully returning so I find it pointless to blame them for their tastelessness and past mild barbarity that they will have reconcile within themselves. If you think our soldiers have been driving around Iraq like they drive around American.......what a rose colored world you live in.  When you are in a convoy the first rule is YOU DO NOT STOP FOR ANYTHING WHATSOEVER and we drive things much larger than Iraqi cars.  So I have witnessed soldiers high fiving each other recalling an Iraqi who unknowingly drove into an intersection that a convoy was crossing and he lost the back half of his car though not his life.  Iraqis also set up roadside stands very close to the edge of the road....or at least they used to.....the 18 wheelers, if you turn the wheel very quickly to the right at the right time your trailer end will swing out to the right and completely take out an Iraqi roadstand.  I've never driven a big truck in my life, have no idea how I know such trivia.

    Parent
    I agree (5.00 / 2) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:04:06 PM EST
    Your cohorts won't about Petraeus in Spetember.

    Parent
    The right question: Is it True? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:17:08 PM EST
    Did Raskolnikov really kill that old lady?

    Parent
    Yes? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:18:35 PM EST


    Parent
    When I first read the piece (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:28:05 PM EST
    I took it as fictionalized but thought that didn't matter. He was trying to convey a state of mind, not reporting news. The wingers know they lose on those grounds and so are attacking it as journalism.

    Parent
    Accuracy. (1.00 / 0) (#19)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:43:37 PM EST
    The wingers know they lose on those grounds and so are attacking it as journalism.

    TNR responded to criticism by immediately claiming it was legitimate journalism. They didn't present it as anything but truthful at the time it was published and still maintain that it is accurate.

    Don't blame the Right for trying to find out the truth. Here's a new question: why are parts of the Left trying so hard to say it doesn't matter if it's true or not?

    Parent

    I don't (5.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:49:19 PM EST
    I blame the Right for its blatant hypocrisy.

    Parent
    The point is what (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:04:04 PM EST
    aj12754 says above:

    That's why rules of engagement and the Geneva conventions and education on war crimes are so important ... there are two victims of atrocities -- the victim of the atrocity and the person who commits the atrocity.

    He made that point. He says that what he wrote was his view and an honest reflection of his experiences. To instead make the issue Did he really find a mass grave or But killing dogs is against standard operating procedure or But he's smearing the character of our fine young men and women in uniform - well, really it's beside the point. Which with all due respect I'm sure you know.

    Don't blame the Right for trying to find out the truth.

    Oh Gabe, you're so funny.

    Parent

    Fake but accurate? (none / 0) (#20)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:44:35 PM EST


    Parent
    Facts can be used to lie (5.00 / 1) (#27)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:12:13 PM EST
    and fiction can be used to tell the truth.

    It looks like facts have been used to tell the truth in Beauchamp's case though.

    Parent

    Alien - Life is not Lit 101 (1.00 / 0) (#39)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 08:25:03 AM EST
    Fiction is supposed to be labeled as fiction.

    Parent
    Life and Literature (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Peaches on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 08:37:05 AM EST
    Setting aside TNR and the article by Scott Thomas Beauchamp, I think all that AA is saying is that there are truths and lessons revealed in literature. The Jungle by Upton Sinclair is a clear and obvious example. We can learn history from reading Victor Hugo and about Russian culture from Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. We can learn about ourselves by reading ancient Greek Literature and Shakespeare.

    We can also to choose to ignore such works and focus on life, since what is learned in books is often second hand. But, books are a form of communication and classic literature is written by some of the best communicators with the written language. So, the statement that truths are revealed through works of fiction should hardly be taken as controversial for such an obvious insight.

    Parent

    I'm a bit appalled (none / 0) (#45)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 11:46:24 AM EST
    at the literalism over this here. I expect it from wingers, but expected more sophistication from progressives.

    If there's fault in this incident it's either with TNR for not clearly ascertaining what they bought from Beauchamp, or with Beauchamp for not clearly representing what his piece was. From his blog it's fairly evident he was an aspiring fiction writer. So if this turns out to be A Million Little Pieces in Iraq, it allows everybody to just blow off the whole point and natter on about Well, did he really run over three dogs or was it maybe just one, and if so what day did it happen?

    Actually, more than a bit appalled.

    Parent

    Oh. (none / 0) (#30)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:30:07 PM EST
    And ignorance is strength.

    Parent
    And (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:34:16 PM EST
    War is Peace.

    You have a point?

    Parent

    Gabe (1.00 / 0) (#33)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:43:37 PM EST
    Don't forget speaking truth to power.

    Parent
    Grrrr. (none / 0) (#23)
    by Gabriel Malor on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:53:42 PM EST
    Agh. Darn you, SUO! How could I have missed that?!?

    Parent
    Unacceptable (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:56:00 PM EST
    from any political persuasion.

    Parent
    You were clearly wrong (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:48:43 PM EST
    AA.

    It was presented as a first hand account I understand.

    Parent

    Refer to (none / 0) (#26)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:04:59 PM EST
    our previous discussion of subjectivity.

    Parent
    Ah (none / 0) (#28)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:17:40 PM EST
    Well we still disagree I see.

    Parent
    Yes (none / 0) (#29)
    by Alien Abductee on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 01:25:59 PM EST


    Parent
    Yes. (none / 0) (#17)
    by aj12754 on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 12:27:48 PM EST


    Parent
    Pretty good spin BTD (none / 0) (#46)
    by Slado on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 01:09:09 PM EST
    Seeing how TNR has a reputation for putting out BS stories is it such a leap for some on the right to question such wild claims that others in the military have said couldn't have happened?

    How is questioning an allegedly bogus story supposed to be equated to not supporting the troops?

    It's a pretty weak claim for a post IMHO.

    Supporting The Troops | 46 comments (46 topical)

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