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Gen. Odom: Use The Spending Power To End the Iraq Debacle

Via mcjoan, retired General William Odom says:

. . . Congress clearly and indisputably has two powers over the executive: the power of the purse and the power to impeach. Instead of using either, members of congress are wasting their time discussing feckless measures like a bill that "de-authorizes the war in Iraq." That is toothless unless it is matched by a cut-off of funds....

To force him to begin a withdrawal before then, the first step should be to rally the public by providing an honest and candid definition of what "supporting the troops" really means and pointing out who is and who is not supporting our troops at war. The next step should be a flat refusal to appropriate money for to be used in Iraq for anything but withdrawal operations with a clear deadline for completion.

The final step should be to put that president on notice that if [he]ignores this legislative action and tries to extort Congress into providing funds by keeping U.S. forces in peril, impeachment proceedings will proceed in the House of Representatives. Such presidential behavior surely would constitute the "high crime" of squandering the lives of soldiers and Marines for his own personal interest.

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    If they listen to him (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:00:04 PM EST
    impeachment doesn't even come into the picture. However, this could be a good way to get the impeachniks on board for a defunding effort.

    I don;t think Odom (5.00 / 2) (#3)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:09:11 PM EST
    thinks Bush won't withdraw the troops.

    I think he says in the highly unlikely event he does, you have the best possible grounds for impeachment.

    Parent

    Exactly (5.00 / 1) (#4)
    by andgarden on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:13:46 PM EST
    and it's fine to say that. Because we'd never get to that point. Bush would have to blink.

    Parent
    being prepared (5.00 / 1) (#6)
    by chemoelectric on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:58:42 PM EST
    It is wrong, however, to say that de-funding would end the occupation; it only is a prerequisite. General Odom, it seems, is very wise and does not underestimate his enemy, but rather assumes and prepares for the worst. Maybe he also understands how depraved the enemy is in this case, which hasn't quite sunk in yet with many people.

    Parent
    Odom Sounds Good In Theory (1.00 / 1) (#27)
    by talex on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 04:36:42 PM EST
    But!!

    Well before I get to the buts let me say disregarding all else Odom's reason for impeachment is the best that I have heard that could resonate with the public.

    But!

    It would still not get a conviction the Senate because the Repubs have been complicit in every thing Bush has done. That is  the rather large detail that Odom either ignores or does not think about. To convict him of wrong doing is to convict themselves. They just are not going to do that and essentially vote themselves out of the seats they hold or vote a death sentence for the Repub Presidential candidate. Ain't going to happen.

    As for the "supporting the troops' argument - it isn't like the Dems have not already been trying to do that. It's tough to breakthrough the bully pulpit, the Right's noise machine, and the MSM. We may make headway if we keep trying but it isn't going to be groundbreaking.

    Now the Big BUT!

    Funding for withdrawal only. Can't happen. Bush will veto that every time as he has done. Odom is saying nothing new here in regards to funding for withdrawal only. He is only anticipating that Bush would veto it and backing it up with impeachment - which again would not succeed in the Senate.

    So yeah Odom is saying a lot of nice sounding words but they are basically recycled and repackaged.

    So the bottomline: A bill; a veto; no conviction - - nothing accomplished!

    And that is if you could even get the votes in the House to veto on that count. My guess is it could be unlikely because of the Blue Dogs et al.

    But let's say enough Blue Dogs finally come around to their senses and would vote to impeach because Bush won't withdraw. OK still no conviction in the Senate. But wait! Let's say that non-law abiding Domenici is the early leading edge of the Repubs who are predicted to come back next week with their heads on straight and are ready to finally do something. Then there might be enough to impeach. But wait! If there are enough to impeach then there are enough to pass a bill with veto proof majority also. Because certainly if they are willing to impeach for not withdrawing they would be willing to vote for withdrawing, right?

    So in that case there is no need for impeachment at all and we just pass a veto proof withdrawal bill and get the hell out of Iraq.

    And at the very least what we have here developing with Iraq is a slow break of the Repub Dam. At the very least we are headed for a middle position between where we are and where they used to be. That's progress. And now our job is to pull them from their middle position closer to us. They are moving our way not vice versa. Why stop their momentum - keep them moving.

    Parent

    A veto proof withdrawal bill ? (none / 0) (#28)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 04:56:12 PM EST
    NO votes are needed to NOT pass another supplemental funding bill.

    Bush cannot veto a bill that is not introduced or passed.

    Why do you even bother trying to misrepresent what needs to be done to end the Iraq Occupation?

    What is your agenda, talex?

    Misrepresenting is lying, talex.

    The continuous whine that "we don't have the votes" is also part of the big lie.

    If the Democrats stand up NOW and announce that they will no longer fund the occupation and that there will be no more emergency supplementals introduced when the current one runs out, the situation will become one of NO votes needed to NOT pass a bill. The ball will be in Bush's court.

    Odom is right.

    The Democrats have absolute power in this debate. What good is it and why should voters let them retain it next year if they are too weak kneed to use it to end the Debacle?

    As John Freelund wrote on May 27 at TPMCafe:

    Pin Bush and Gates Down

    At the next presidential press conference, I'd suggest question 1-5 be the following:

    "Are you Mr. President, and Mr. Secretary, prepared to leave troops in Iraq without adequate supplies?"

    Watch them squirm, watch them dance. They will not be able to say "yes." This is what the media and the Democrats should have been asking, over and over again, to frame this debate properly.

    You're optimistic (sic) that with all these lies you repeat every time you comment here and elsewhere that you'll be able to convince enough people to continue occupying Iraq so that you can use it as a political platform to run against in 2008 - with zero concern for the number of US Soldiers and Iraqis who will have to die for you to be able to do that?

    I too am optimistic, talex.

    The difference between you and I is that I am optimistic about people. About their intelligence and their ability to see through lies.

    Defunding Iraq: Misperceptions, Disinformation And Lies


    Parent

    Indeed. (none / 0) (#8)
    by mattd on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:04:30 PM EST
    This is what I was trying to say in the other thread - the "final step" of impeachment must be an option if Congress expects the President to obey a defunding decision.

    The final step should be to put that president on notice that if [he]ignores this legislative action and tries to extort Congress into providing funds by keeping U.S. forces in peril, impeachment proceedings will proceed in the House of Representatives. Such presidential behavior surely would constitute the "high crime" of squandering the lives of soldiers and Marines for his own personal interest.

    I wish I'd said it that well.

    Parent

    Finally (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by squeaky on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:05:20 PM EST
    SOmeone is talking sense....

    There's that "I" word again (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by Lora on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 10:28:59 PM EST
    Nice.

    Did Odom take down Ollie North? (5.00 / 1) (#13)
    by Ben Masel on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:24:10 AM EST
    As rumors of the Iran/Contra operation began to surface, Col. North "deleted" all his emails from the White house intranet, and he and fawn hall more famously shredded hardcopies.

    A few days later, the "deleted' items turned up at the Congressional investigating committees, with no public attribution of source. Highly likely these came from NSA, who'd built the system, and retained admin priveleges. It's ot entirely clear Odom was briefed by the NSAers who dropped the records.

    If (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 02:56:36 PM EST
    being a dick to everyone in the world is a really crappy way to build consensus.  for anything at all, then why do you keep doing it?

    Was Thinking (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by squeaky on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 03:06:55 PM EST
    The same thought, or similar...

    Parent
    He won't get it, I think... (none / 0) (#25)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 03:09:49 PM EST
    Hey (none / 0) (#31)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 05:02:41 AM EST
    I'm too thick headed and stupid to "get it."

    Making me look like a fool doesn't bring the troops home.

    But I'm sure it makes people feel good.


    Parent

    Cutting spending has its limitations (none / 0) (#7)
    by ctrenta on Thu Jul 05, 2007 at 11:02:56 PM EST
    Ending the war is a task that could very well be accomplished by refusing to provide any more funding. Or it could be accomplished by a bill created by one committee. It is not a fulltime task for the entire Congress.

    But as far as I know, this Congress has already demonstrated it has no intention of ending the war. The Senate voted 80-14 and the House, 280-142 on the Iraq Supplemental Funding Bill, and a good number of Dems supported it. So much for being a party of opposition. I thought that's what voters wanted in the 2006 election?

    What could help move Congress would be the same thing that helped a previous Congress end the Vietnam War and convinced Nixon not to veto the cut-off in funding: impeachment. In this case, even more so than Nixon's, impeachment would drive the war debate in the right direction, because impeachment would be for offenses either directly connected to the war or offenses that have been justified by "war on terror" propaganda.

    In addition, should Congress actually cut off the funding and end the war, it is very likely that Bush and Cheney would misappropriate funds from the Pentagon to keep the occupation going. If memory serves me, they already did that when they secretly began the war in Iraq, and have never been held accountable for it. So, removing them from office is not only needed in order to give Congress the nerve to end the war, but is also needed if the war is ever to actually end.

    On a side note, it's amazing how much damage the GOP did to impeachment. It's gotten to a point now that people see it as if it's the third rail of politics.

    It isn't.

    Instead of sullying the GOP for what they did to Clinton in 1999, the Dems sullied the process of impeachment. At first, I thought impeachment was a knee-jerk reactionary feel good thing for extremists, and I learned the hard way, it wasn't. I had to re-learn everything I was tought about impeachment and now I understand why at this time and place, it's the necessary and  appropriate solution to our political crisis and I think in due time, more and more will also come around and consider the same.

    Wanna end the war? Consider investigations into impeachment!  

    Impeachment is not a realistic option (5.00 / 1) (#21)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:10:32 PM EST
    and Bush and Cheney could never shuffle enough funds around to fund the war.  The cost of the war is way above anything they have to shuffle around.  The few bombing sorties they shuffled for in the beginning was not a fullblown war with 100,000 plus boots on the ground with tanks and helicopters.

    Parent
    progress (none / 0) (#9)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:00:28 AM EST
    link (none / 0) (#10)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:08:24 AM EST
    http://tinyurl.com/39hpso

    Embracing the four myths gives Congress excuses not to exercise its power of the purse to end the war and open the way for a strategy that might actually bear fruit.


    Parent
    Just saw your comment (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:18:40 AM EST
    I wrote a post on that Odom piece at Talk Left when ot first came out.

    You are quite slow my friend.

    Moreover, Odom did not speak to cutting off funding then in the clear unmistaheabloe terms he just did.

    Progress would be when you finally understand what Odom is saying.

    Your comment was late and not entirely accurate at the time.

    Now it is accurate.

    Parent

    well excuse me then (none / 0) (#12)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:20:26 AM EST
    i won't ever post anything to support your argument again!

    Parent
    Again? (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:28:57 AM EST
    You still haven't.

    Parent
    of course (none / 0) (#15)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:34:13 AM EST
    you are right, as always.

    i never made the case that getting some military generals to endorse reid/feingold might help the cause and then i never posted that there was one military general that called for using the power of the purse.

    you are always right.  i've never done any of that and how do i know this.  cause you said so.

    hmm..  i think we're back to maj. gen. odom's quote on bill maher then.

    i'm truly sorry i don't measure up to your standards.  

    Parent

    edit (none / 0) (#16)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:35:02 AM EST
    i think we're back to maj. gen. EATON'S quote from bill maher.


    Parent
    a refresher (none / 0) (#17)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:39:11 AM EST
    MAHER: I didn't know you felt that way. Well, let me ask you about this: there are two plans the Democrats seem to have, or that they're floating in Congress. One is to de-fund the war. The other one is to set a timetable. The Bush Administration says both things would somehow hurt the troops. Would it hurt the troops if we de-funded the war? Would that affect them?

    EATON: It would be a very serious problem for the United States Army, and it would be political suicide for the Democratic Party.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Eaton

    Parent

    Purse vs impeach (none / 0) (#18)
    by Duckman GR on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:56:42 AM EST
    At the risk of sounding shrill here, I have to agree with ctrenta, because, and it's pretty much the source of much anger directed at the Democratic Leadership, because, Big Tent, if the Dems would DEMONSTRATE their willingness to exercise that power of the purse, well, then, we wouldn't be having this impeachment meltdown.

    But, as evidenced by the Iraq supplemental vote, they haven't DEMONSTRATED any willingness to do so.  And the Goppers will always come up with some justification or create some situation whereby the Dems have to give them the money or else face lots of mean criticisms from the media and such.  And to date, the Democrats have crumbled every g-subject expletive d-action expletive f-adjective emphasis expletive time when confronted with that possibility.

    Evidenced by the fact that Bush would have a couple more vetoes to tack up on his ersatz cowboy cabin wall.

    Which leaves us with Impeachment as the only other and equally unlikely action.  Impeachment with all of the negative connotations that would be associated with the impeached and his supporters.  The relevant effect would be that stigma that goes with it.  Not the stigma that would attach to George Bush of course, lacking any basic humanity stigma doesn't stick, you might say.  No, but for the bad vibes that would attach itself to the whole Bush Administration and their ACTIONS.

    Impeachment for the benefit of two audiences.  One, those who worked hand in bloddy glove with Bush/Cheney and might consider the consequences of their activities a litle more closely, and two, the American People who might consider how bad a bunch Bush/Cheney was, to be impeached and convicted I add, and for really serious and deadly ACTIONS, not a freaking blown job.

    This crew of neocons and fascists and religious nutjobs need repudiation for the long term health of this country.  Cutting the pursestrings, while perfectly valid and what are they waiting for, doesn't do that.  Only impeachment and conviction fulfills that function.  If they had done Nixon, then maybe Nixon's little hatchlings like Cheney and Rummy might not have turned out the way they have, having seen up close the devastating nature of a full impeachment and conviction.


    Because BTD has established (none / 0) (#19)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:56:55 AM EST
    that I will NEVER support defunding and have NEVER posted anything in support of that course of action, i think i should at least be more diligent in my opposition to that course of action.

    i see a flaw in odom's argument.

    some have stated above that it would never get to the impeachment stage.  which is a good thing, cause impeachment would still take a few months while the troops are sitting there in iraq without funding.

    presumably gen. odom CAN envision a scenario where bush leaves the troops in iraq without funding.  i say that because odom quite clearly has a plan to deal with that possibility.

    Oh stop, BTD didn't say that (5.00 / 2) (#20)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:04:52 PM EST
    If you want to join team defunding just do it in present tense.  If you have decided that defunding is for you great, welcome aboard.

    Parent
    BTD has established (1.00 / 1) (#22)
    by Stewieeeee on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 12:36:57 PM EST
    that i am incapable of supporting defunding in that one true and special way that only he and a select group of people know about.

    as this was your response...

    http://www.talkleft.com/comments/2007/6/18/142837/969/63#63

    to me pointing out that gen. odom is someone you can go to to support your course of action....

    i stand by my general underlying point.

    being a dick to everyone in the world is a really crappy way to build consensus.  for anything at all.

    listen. i just don't get it.  i never will.

    BTD knows this.  why don't you?

    Parent

    So BTD defines you? (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by Militarytracy on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 11:39:45 PM EST
    I know being a dick is not a good way to build consesus and I wonder if you haven't looked at this whole situation from the other end of things.  You seemed very bent on impeachment and very much against defunding no matter what was explained or discussed.  Being a dick is not a good way to build consesus. BTD isn't the only one here with a "strong" personality ;)

    Parent
    i do not seem bent on impeachment (none / 0) (#30)
    by Stewieeeee on Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 05:00:48 AM EST
    I have argued against it.

    Jesus, you people are insane.


    Parent

    I'm sorry if I misunderstood (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Militarytracy on Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 10:25:43 AM EST
    your stand on the issue of impeachment.  I focus mostly on the defunding issue for very selfishly personal reasons.

    Parent
    Stewie will and does (none / 0) (#33)
    by Edger on Sat Jul 07, 2007 at 10:41:19 AM EST
    go around and around in circles but cannot (so far) bring himself to call for NOT funding the Iraq occupation. He has bought he propaganda that defunding the occupation hurts the troops that the DLC and the Blue Dogs sell.

    I haven't seen him move from that position since this:

    i'm not for funding the occupation (none / 0) (#20)
    by Stewieeeee on Mon Jun 11, 2007 at 02:44:41 PM PST
    i'm for funding the troops.


    Parent
    i have bought the propaganda (none / 0) (#34)
    by Stewieeeee on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:21:59 AM EST
    of maj. gen. Paul D. Eaton.  And others.

    I have never advocated for the DLC!!!!

    Parent

    They all sell the same BS (none / 0) (#35)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:39:05 AM EST
    Say they want to end the occupation. Then support paying for it.

    Parent
    Fine (none / 0) (#36)
    by Stewieeeee on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:42:21 AM EST
    I'm just saying I'm not taking my cues from the DLC.

    If your OPINION is that Eaton, et al, are like the DLC (even though they are NOT affiliated with them), then all i can do is RESPECTFULLY disagree with that opinion.


    Parent

    Whatever... (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:52:21 AM EST
    I have an idea. Forget about Eation, the DLC, the Blue Dogs, and any other type of dogs.

    Today is July 8. The current supplemental is up Sept.30.

    How about the Democrats tell Bush this morning to start withdrawing now, and to use what's left of the supplemental for that, and that any additional funds he has to use for it he should take from the DOD budget, and that it will be replaced by another supplemental after all the troops are home, but that there will be no more supplementals introduced and passed if he refuses.

    You in? Or do you still want to continue it?

    Parent

    Take your time. (none / 0) (#38)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:54:45 AM EST
    It's 5:30 AM here. I'm going back to sleep for awhile.

    Parent
    As I have repeatedly tried to point out (none / 0) (#39)
    by Stewieeeee on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 07:57:58 AM EST
    my opinion on that question doesn't matter here.

    you are playing a game.

    that game is "you agree with me or you are for more death."

    and i am quite sure in all it's glorious literalism, your belief in that binary is absolute and of utmost sincerity.

    I will let you down.

    You will only conclude that I WANT people to die.

    And everyone else can determine if your opinion about what i WANT is right or not.

    Parent

    No. (5.00 / 1) (#40)
    by Edger on Sun Jul 08, 2007 at 09:18:44 AM EST
    I asked for your opinion on whether or not you thought my idea was something you would agree with and would like to see done.

    If you can't answer you are playing the game. Maybe now you see why you don't get taken seriously.

    Parent

    I meant to reply to you (1.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Edger on Fri Jul 06, 2007 at 03:12:39 PM EST
    My reply is up here.

    Parent