On Experts: It's The Dishonesty, Stupid

By Big Tent Democrat, Section Foreign Affairs
Posted on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:38:42 AM EST
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Gideon Rose, the editor of Foreign Affairs, has struck back against the mean blogs:

The lefty blogosphere, meanwhile, has gotten itself all in a tizzy over the failings of the "foreign policy community. . . . First, many of the people in the various national security bureaucracies are indeed Humphreys, and deserve to have their every move and utterance treated with great skepticism. . . .

But that of course is a description of the two peole subject to the "blogger tizzy," Michael O'Hanlon and Ken Pollack. They chose to describe themselves as war critics when they were Iraq Debacle and Surge supporters. They lied. And predictably, I think they knew this personally, their lies were used for the purpose of giving their analysis credibility it did not deserve. It was the dishonesty, stupid. Much like these lies from McCain:

It’s entertaining, in that I was the greatest critic of the initial four years, three and a half years. I came back from my first trip to Iraq and said, This is going to fail. We’ve got to change the strategy to the one we’re using now. But life isn’t fair.

Greatest critic? My left cheek:

“But I believe, Katie, that the Iraqi people will greet us as liberators.” [NBC, 3/20/03]
“It’s clear that the end is very much in sight.” [ABC, 4/9/03]

“There’s not a history of clashes that are violent between Sunnis and Shiahs. So I think they can probably get along.” [MSNBC, 4/23/03]

“This is a mission accomplished. They know how much influence Saddam Hussein had on the Iraqi people, how much more difficult it made to get their cooperation.” [This Week, ABC, 12/14/03]

“I’m confident we’re on the right course.” [ABC News, 3/7/04]

“I think the initial phases of it were so spectacularly successful that it took us all by surprise.” [CBS, 10/31/04]
“I do think that progress is being made in a lot of Iraq. Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course. If I thought we weren’t making progress, I’d be despondent.” [The Hill, 12/8/05]

The big problem with O'Hanlon, Pollack and McCain is they are liars. That they are wrong on everything is of course an issue, but as long as they are honestly presented as being wrong on everything then we can deal with that. When they lie about it, and claim tobe "war critics, that is when the problem starts.

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On Experts: It's The Dishonesty, Stupid | 30 comments (30 topical)

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Monkey See, Monkey Do (5.00 / 2) (#1)
by squeaky on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 11:59:45 AM EST

Lying is more than fashionable these days, it's a raging fad. Why should these guys get any flack for acting the following the example of our leaders and government officials?

Laura Rozen has a great idea:

There's a solution no one has thought of here. Congress needs to come back and pass legislation to make perjury no longer a crime. If Gonzales is the example of how you are allowed to lie to Congress, just take it off the books as a crime. Did anyone ever think of that? The Judge Alberto Gonzales Lying is a Sometimes Necessary Form of Protected Free Speech Act of 2007.

War & Piece

So, our problem is that Democrats (5.00 / 1) (#2)
by andgarden on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:34:56 PM EST

will cave to Bush until the media begins behaving honestly. That's not going to be possible, in my estimation, because members of the media tend to be lazy and easily misled--especially be Republicans.

I think the Democratic Leadership (5.00 / 1) (#4)
by Edger on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:37:24 PM EST

will cave to Bush until he Democratic Leadership begins behaving honestly.


The Democrats won't lift a finger (5.00 / 2) (#5)
by andgarden on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:39:14 PM EST

until the media goes back to at least where it was before the surge announcement.


I agree (5.00 / 1) (#6)
by Edger on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:40:52 PM EST

and I think that is dishonest of them.


Some soldier is going to go postal (5.00 / 1) (#7)
by Militarytracy on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:33:20 PM EST

in a mall or something pretty soon and shoot up a whole bunch of innocent people in America and then everyone will finally for real go WTF are we doing?


: I hope not (5.00 / 1) (#10)
by Edger on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:20:53 PM EST

But it wouldn't surprise me to see it happen. A lot of these guys are coming home, if the make it home, with really serious psychological disabilities, now.

That's the problem isnt it? (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:35:43 PM EST

The people are not buyiong it anymore but the pols are.


Yup (none / 0) (#18)
by andgarden on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 03:15:57 PM EST

But I'm increasingly convinced that the progenitor of the problem is the media.

Have you read "The Baseball Test for Journalists"?

I repeat my previous suggestion for the "baseball test." A reporter should not be assigned to cover subject X unless he has as good an understanding of X as a baseball writer is expected to have of baseball.

The comment thread is good too.


Moreover (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by andgarden on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 03:17:51 PM EST

I think it's pretty clear that we can't really have much impact on the pols themselves.

Our highest and best use in the netroots might just be to bully the media.


Although I didn't attend and haven't (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by oculus on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 04:54:37 PM EST

watched the video coverage, the appearance of so many Dem pols at Yearly Kos 2 is an encouraging sign that perhaps some of them are aware of and monitoring the blogs. Does this have the slighest effect on what they do--maybe not.


Meanwhile, they amended FISA (4.00 / 1) (#24)
by andgarden on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 04:59:34 PM EST

I think we need to get real about what we can expect from them.

I think, if we're lucky, they'll explain themselves to us.


I still blame that on D. Feinstein. (none / 0) (#26)
by oculus on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 05:04:05 PM EST

She blames it on the info she rec'd during the secret briefings. Not buying it though.


Were you here for the live blog (5.00 / 1) (#28)
by andgarden on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 05:20:37 PM EST

of that vote? DiFI was utterly incoherent--she looked confused.


: No. I read her apologiz in NYT. (5.00 / 1) (#29)
by oculus on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 06:13:27 PM EST

What should be unbelievable is (5.00 / 1) (#3)
by Edger on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 12:36:10 PM EST

that people like O'Hanlon, Pollack, McCain really seem to be stupid enough to believe that most people are stupid enough to not be able to see through them.

Although some are, obviously.

I guess there will always be a core that really are stupid enough to believe them. Much like wingnut trolls here.

I wonder why they bother going after the smallest political market there is.

Not so stupid really (5.00 / 2) (#14)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:35:08 PM EST

Everyone bought in to it EXCEPT the blogs.


: At the beginning, yes (none / 0) (#16)
by Edger on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:42:27 PM EST

Because about 50% didn't see through it.
Now only about 25-30% don't see through or deny it if they do.
What I'm worried about is that enough of the difference won't see through the Democratic Leadership next year, or that even if they do they'll hold their noses hoping they'll get what I'm pretty sure they know in the backs of their minds they won't get.
Even smart people do dumb things.

John McCain is the biggest (5.00 / 1) (#8)
by oculus on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 01:33:44 PM EST

disappointment to me. He could have had a fine legacy as imprisoned pilot and supporter of campaign finance reform. Why did he purposely muddy this reputation? Anything to be President, I guess.

Pols are pols (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:34:40 PM EST

They are dishonest because of their profession.


I've never been disappointed (none / 0) (#20)
by Marie on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 03:58:57 PM EST

by the actions of corporatist, right-wing, ambitious, ruthless hawks. McCain hasn't changed. Your disappointment stem from not getting to know him better about twenty years ago and appreciating that the difference between a southwest conservative and a deep south one is more a matter of style than substance.


: Catchy title for a blog. (none / 0) (#22)
by oculus on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 04:57:26 PM EST

Everytime I read what one of them is saying I recall your basic premise.
Meanwhile, today, Pres. sd., w/o attribution, that all politics is local. Shameless quote stealer.

: My blindness stems from a recent visit (none / 0) (#25)
by oculus on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 05:00:09 PM EST

to the Hanoi "Hilton."

The problem of the clerisy is bigger than mere (5.00 / 2) (#9)
by Geekesque on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:01:12 PM EST

dishonesty.

Their entire purpose is to prevent any kind of honest discussion in the first place. Yglesias took Rose down very well.

: It's about as dishonest, (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by Edger on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:22:04 PM EST

purposefully, as they can get, isn't it?

: I didnt like Yglesias piece (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by Big Tent Democrat on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:34:00 PM EST

because OHanlon is an expert, he is just wrong.
His sin is his dishonesty.
Moreover, Yglesias is pretty dishonest himself in that he was an Iraq War supporter himself.

: For the vocabulary impaired, (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by oculus on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 05:06:44 PM EST

"clerisy" means "intelligensia."

The dishonesty is a problem, yes (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by Alien Abductee on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 02:54:24 PM EST

but so is the stupid, stupid. I'm still laughing about Rudy and his Foreign Affairs masterpiece laying out the way forward in "the Terrorists' War on Us."

The right blogs are loving it. But the media doesn't seem interested in covering this particular bit of idiocy, much less ripping it apart with the ridicule it deserves.

: Still wondering how Rudy bested HRC (none / 0) (#23)
by oculus on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 04:58:34 PM EST

in CO.

Tulip Mania + Stockholm Syndrome + ... (5.00 / 1) (#30)
by kovie on Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 08:21:21 PM EST

We've become the United States of Stupid, really, in so many ways, and a lot of this has been due, I think, to our relative success, which has made many of us overly stupid, lazy, complacent, cautious and conservative (in the little c sense of not being willing to take necessary chances and challenge conventional wisdom).

Sometimes it makes Americans simplistically optimistic, and sometimes it makes them simplistically pessimistic. It was the GOP's "genius" to find a way to exploit both during the Reagan/Gingrich/Bush II faux conservative era from '81-'05.

This is what allowed so many to be suckered into the internet bubble in the 90's, the real estate bubble of recent years, and the Iraq war mania of '02-'03. And this is why some people continue to support idiots like Rudy (Romney, Huckabee--eek!), and why some people continue to BE idiots like Rudy (et al). They wanted to believe that you can make something from nothing, and that our (relative) good fortune was god-given and boundless, no matter what we did.

Hasn't been working out too well of late, methinks, on pretty much every front foreign and domestic. Of course, Rudy either thinks otherwise, or thinks that enough people are either too stupid or desperate to see through this faux conservative claptrap to get him elected. I think he's wrong, but as the saying goes, no one ever lost money underestimating the American people.

To be a modern Republican is to be some combination of stupid, lazy, credulous, crazy and cynical. This is how they think, and this is how they operate. I wish I was wrong but I'm not. I can't think of a single contrary example. A majority of voters currently see through their lies and lunacy, but once things get better (assuming that they will), it will just be a matter of time before they start up the BS machine, and people will start taking them seriously again.

This is inevitable, and the smarter Repubs know it, and are already looking ahead to '12 and '16, when they'll be poised to make a comeback. And Rudy's young enough to be part of that. As are Romney and most of these other GOPutzes.