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The WMD Dodge

Kevin Drum writes:

Sure, the war skeptics might have been afraid to go against the herd, but I think that was just an outgrowth of something more concrete: a fear of being provably wrong. After all, everyone agreed that Saddam Hussein was a brutal and unpredictable thug and almost everyone agreed that he had an active WMD program. . . . This meant that war skeptics had to go way out on a limb: if they opposed the war, and it subsequently turned out that Saddam had an advanced WMD program, their credibility would have been completely shot. Their only recourse would have been to argue that Saddam never would have used his WMD, an argument that, given Saddam's temperament, would have sounded like special pleading even to most liberals. In the end, then, they chickened out, but it had more to do with fear of being wrong than with fear of being shunned by the foreign policy community.

With all due respect to Kevin, who has been doing some great blogging lately, this is sheer nonsense. I believed Saddam had chemical and biological weapons and a desire to gain nuclear weapons (but it was clear he he was not close to gaining them or even that he had a viable plan for it.) But like others who believed Saddam had WMD, I vehemently opposed the Iraq Debacle. Let's look at why those of us did.

Like this guy:

Like all Americans I have been wrestling with the question of what our country needs to do to defend itself from the kind of intense, focused and enabled hatred that brought about September 11th, and which at this moment must be presumed to be gathering force for yet another attack. I'm speaking today in an effort to recommend a specific course of action for our country which I believe would be preferable to the course recommended by President Bush. Specifically, I am deeply concerned that the policy we are presently following with respect to Iraq has the potential to seriously damage our ability to win the war against terrorism and to weaken our ability to lead the world in this new century.

FIRST THING FIRST: WAR ON TERRORISM

To begin with, I believe we should focus our efforts first and foremost against those who attacked us on September 11th and have thus far gotten away with it. The vast majority of those who sponsored, planned and implemented the cold blooded murder of more than 3,000 Americans are still at large, still neither located nor apprehended, much less punished and neutralized. I do not believe that we should allow ourselves to be distracted from this urgent task simply because it is proving to be more difficult and lengthy than predicted. Great nations persevere and then prevail. They do not jump from one unfinished task to another.

We are perfectly capable of staying the course in our war against Osama Bin Laden and his terrorist network, while simultaneously taking those steps necessary to build an international coalition to join us in taking on Saddam Hussein in a timely fashion.

I don't think that we should allow anything to diminish our focus on avenging the 3,000 Americans who were murdered and dismantling the network of terrorists who we know to be responsible for it. The fact that we don't know where they are should not cause us to focus instead on some other enemy whose location may be easier to identify.

Nevertheless, President Bush is telling us that the most urgent requirement of the moment - - right now - - is not to redouble our efforts against Al Qaeda, not to stabilize the nation of Afghanistan after driving his host government from power, but instead to shift our focus and concentrate on immediately launching a new war against Saddam Hussein. And he is proclaiming a new, uniquely American right to pre-emptively attack whomsoever he may deem represents a potential future threat.

Moreover, he is demanding in this high political season that Congress speedily affirm that he has the necessary authority to proceed immediately against Iraq and for that matter any other nation in the region, regardless of subsequent developments or circumstances. The timing of this sudden burst of urgency to take up this cause as America's new top priority, displacing the war against Osama Bin Laden, was explained by the White House Chief of Staff in his now well known statement that "from an advertising point of view, you don't launch a new product line until after labor day."

Nevertheless, Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power. Moreover, no international law can prevent the United States from taking actions to protect its vital interests, when it is manifestly clear that there is a choice to be made between law and survival. I believe, however, that such a choice is not presented in the case of Iraq. Indeed, should we decide to proceed, that action can be justified within the framework of international law rather than outside it. In fact, though a new UN resolution may be helpful in building international consensus, the existing resolutions from 1991 are sufficient from a legal standpoint.

We also need to look at the relationship between our national goal of regime change in Iraq and our goal of victory in the war against terror. In the case of Iraq, it would be more difficult for the United States to succeed alone, but still possible. By contrast, the war against terror manifestly requires broad and continuous international cooperation. Our ability to secure this kind of cooperation can be severely damaged by unilateral action against Iraq. If the Administration has reason to believe otherwise, it ought to share those reasons with the Congress - - since it is asking Congress to endorse action that might well impair a more urgent task: continuing to disrupt and destroy the international terror network.

I was one of the few Democrats in the U.S. Senate who supported the war resolution in 1991. And I felt betrayed by the first Bush administration's hasty departure from the battlefield, even as Saddam began to renew his persecution of the Kurds of the North and the Shiites of the South - - groups we had encouraged to rise up against Saddam. It is worth noting, however, that the conditions in 1991 when that resolution was debated in Congress were very different from the conditions this year as Congress prepares to debate a new resolution. Then, Saddam had sent his armies across an international border to invade Kuwait and annex its territory. This year, 11 years later, there is no such invasion; instead we are prepared to cross an international border to change the government of Iraq. However justified our proposed action may be, this change in role nevertheless has consequences for world opinion and can affect the war against terrorism if we proceed unilaterally.

Secondly, in 1991, the first President Bush patiently and skillfully built a broad international coalition. His task was easier than that confronted his son, in part because of Saddam's invasion of Kuwait. Nevertheless, every Arab nation except Jordan supported our military efforts and some of them supplied troops. Our allies in Europe and Asia supported the coalition without exception. Yet this year, by contrast, many of our allies in Europe and Asia are thus far opposed to what President Bush is doing and the few who support us condition their support on the passage of a new U.N. resolution.

Third, in 1991, a strong United Nations resolution was in place before the Congressional debate ever began; this year although we have residual authority based on resolutions dating back to the first war in Iraq, we have nevertheless begun to seek a new United Nations resolution and have thus far failed to secure one.

Fourth, the coalition assembled in 1991 paid all of the significant costs of the war, while this time, the American taxpayers will be asked to shoulder hundreds of billions of dollars in costs on our own.

Fifth, President George H. W. Bush purposely waited until after the mid-term elections of 1990 to push for a vote at the beginning of the new Congress in January of 1991. President George W. Bush, by contrast, is pushing for a vote in this Congress immediately before the election. Rather than making efforts to dispel concern at home an abroad about the role of politics in the timing of his policy, the President is publicly taunting Democrats with the political consequences of a "no" vote - - even as the Republican National Committee runs pre-packaged advertising based on the same theme - - in keeping with the political strategy clearly described in a White House aide's misplaced computer disk, which advised Republican operatives that their principal game plan for success in the election a few weeks away was to "focus on the war." Vice President Cheney, meanwhile indignantly described suggestions of political motivation "reprehensible." The following week he took his discussion of war strategy to the Rush Limbaugh show.

The foreshortening of deliberation in the Congress robs the country of the time it needs for careful analysis of what may lie before it. Such consideration is all the more important because of the Administration's failure thus far to lay out an assessment of how it thinks the course of a war will run - - even while it has given free run to persons both within and close to the administration to suggest that this will be an easy conquest. Neither has the Administration said much to clarify its idea of what is to follow regime change or of the degree of engagement it is prepared to accept for the United States in Iraq in the months and years after a regime change has taken place.

By shifting from his early focus after September 11th on war against terrorism to war against Iraq, the President has manifestly disposed of the sympathy, good will and solidarity compiled by America and transformed it into a sense of deep misgiving and even hostility. In just one year, the President has somehow squandered the international outpouring of sympathy, goodwill and solidarity that followed the attacks of September 11th and converted it into anger and apprehension aimed much more at the United States than at the terrorist network - - much as we manage to squander in one year's time the largest budget surpluses in history and convert them into massive fiscal deficits. He has compounded this by asserting a new doctrine - - of preemption.

The doctrine of preemption is based on the idea that in the era of proliferating WMD, and against the background of a sophisticated terrorist threat, the United States cannot wait for proof of a fully established mortal threat, but should rather act at any point to cut that short.

The problem with preemption is that in the first instance it is not needed in order to give the United States the means to act in its own defense against terrorism in general or Iraq in particular. But that is a relatively minor issue compared to the longer-term consequences that can be foreseen for this doctrine. To begin with, the doctrine is presented in open-ended terms, which means that if Iraq if the first point of application, it is not necessarily the last. In fact, the very logic of the concept suggests a string of military engagements against a succession of sovereign states: Syria, Libya, North Korea, Iran, etc., wherever the combination exists of an interest in weapons of mass destruction together with an ongoing role as host to or participant in terrorist operations. It means also that if the Congress approves the Iraq resolution just proposed by the Administration it is simultaneously creating the precedent for preemptive action anywhere, anytime this or any future president so decides.

The Bush Administration may now be realizing that national and international cohesion are strategic assets. But it is a lesson long delayed and clearly not uniformly and consistently accepted by senior members of the cabinet. From the outset, the Administration has operated in a manner calculated to please the portion of its base that occupies the far right, at the expense of solidarity among Americans and between America and her allies.

On the domestic front, the Administration, having delayed many months before conceding the need to create an institution outside the White House to manage homeland defense, has been willing to see progress on the new department held up, for the sake of an effort to coerce the Congress into stripping civil service protections from tens of thousands of federal employees.

Far more damaging, however, is the Administration's attack on fundamental constitutional rights. The idea that an American citizen can be imprisoned without recourse to judicial process or remedies, and that this can be done on the say-so of the President or those acting in his name, is beyond the pale.

Regarding other countries, the Administration's disdain for the views of others is well documented and need not be reviewed here. It is more important to note the consequences of an emerging national strategy that not only celebrates American strengths, but appears to be glorifying the notion of dominance. If what America represents to the world is leadership in a commonwealth of equals, then our friends are legion; if what we represent to the world is empire, then it is our enemies who will be legion.

At this fateful juncture in our history it is vital that we see clearly who are our enemies, and that we deal with them. It is also important, however, that in the process we preserve not only ourselves as individuals, but our nature as a people dedicated to the rule of law.

DANGERS OF ABANDONING IRAQ

Moreover, if we quickly succeed in a war against the weakened and depleted fourth rate military of Iraq and then quickly abandon that nation as President Bush has abandoned Afghanistan after quickly defeating a fifth rate military there, the resulting chaos could easily pose a far greater danger to the United States than we presently face from Saddam. We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.

We have no evidence, however, that he has shared any of those weapons with terrorist group. However, if Iraq came to resemble Afghanistan - - with no central authority but instead local and regional warlords with porous borders and infiltrating members of Al Qaeda than these widely dispersed supplies of weapons of mass destruction might well come into the hands of terrorist groups.

If we end the war in Iraq, the way we ended the war in Afghanistan, we could easily be worse off than we are today. When Secretary Rumsfield was asked recently about what our responsibility for restabilizing Iraq would be in an aftermath of an invasion, he said, "that's for the Iraqis to come together and decide."

During one of the campaign debates in 2000 when then Governor Bush was asked if America should engage in any sort of "nation building" in the aftermath of a war in which we have involved our troops, he stated gave the purist expression of what is now a Bush doctrine: "I don't think so. I think what we need to do is convince people who live in the lands they live in to build the nations. Maybe I'm missing something here. We're going to have a kind of nation building corps in America? Absolutely not."

The events of the last 85 years provide ample evidence that our approach to winning the peace that follows war is almost as important as winning the war itself. The absence of enlightened nation building after World War I led directly to the conditions which made Germany vulnerable to fascism and the rise to Adolph Hitler and made all of Europe vulnerable to his evil designs. By contrast the enlightened vision embodied in the Marshall plan, NATO, and the other nation building efforts in the aftermath of World War II led directly to the conditions that fostered prosperity and peace for most the years since this city gave birth to the United Nations.

Two decades ago, when the Soviet Union claimed the right to launch a pre-emptive war in Afghanistan, we properly encouraged and then supported the resistance movement which, a decade later, succeeded in defeating the Soviet Army's efforts. Unfortunately, when the Russians left, we abandoned the Afghans and the lack of any coherent nation building program led directly to the conditions which fostered Al Qaeda terrorist bases and Osama Bin Laden's plotting against the World Trade Center. Incredibly, after defeating the Taliban rather easily, and despite pledges from President Bush that we would never again abandon Afghanistan we have done precisely that. And now the Taliban and Al Qaeda are quickly moving back to take up residence there again. A mere two years after we abandoned Afghanistan the first time, Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. Following a brilliant military campaign, the U.S. abandoned the effort to destroy Saddam's military prematurely and allowed him to remain in power.

What is a potentially even more serious consequence of this push to begin a new war as quickly as possible is the damage it can do not just to America's prospects to winning the war against terrorism but to America's prospects for continuing the historic leadership we began providing to the world 57 years ago, right here in this city by the bay.

WHAT CONGRESS SHOULD DO

I believe, therefore, that the resolution that the President has asked Congress to pass is much too broad in the authorities it grants, and needs to be narrowed. The President should be authorized to take action to deal with Saddam Hussein as being in material breach of the terms of the truce and therefore a continuing threat to the security of the region. To this should be added that his continued pursuit of weapons of mass destruction is potentially a threat to the vital interests of the United States. But Congress should also urge the President to make every effort to obtain a fresh demand from the Security Council for prompt, unconditional compliance by Iraq within a definite period of time. If the Council will not provide such language, then other choices remain open, but in any event the President should be urged to take the time to assemble the broadest possible international support for his course of action. Anticipating that the President will still move toward unilateral action, the Congress should establish now what the administration's thinking is regarding the aftermath of a US attack for the purpose of regime change.

Specifically, Congress should establish why the president believes that unilateral action will not severely damage the fight against terrorist networks, and that preparations are in place to deal with the effects of chemical and biological attacks against our allies, our forces in the field, and even the home-front. The resolution should also require commitments from the President that action in Iraq will not be permitted to distract from continuing and improving work to reconstruct Afghanistan, an that the United States will commit to stay the course for the reconstruction of Iraq.

The Congressional resolution should make explicitly clear that authorities for taking these actions are to be presented as derivatives from existing Security Council resolutions and from international law: not requiring any formal new doctrine of pre-emption, which remains to be discussed subsequently in view of its gravity.

PRE-EMPTION DOCTRINE

Last week President Bush added a troubling new element to this debate by proposing a broad new strategic doctrine that goes far beyond issues related to Iraq and would effect the basic relationship between the United States and the rest of the world community. Article 51 of the United Nations charter recognizes the right of any nation to defend itself, including the right in some circumstances to take pre-emptive actions in order to deal with imminent threats. President Bush now asserts that we will take pre-emptive action even if we take the threat we perceive is not imminent. If other nations assert the same right then the rule of law will quickly be replaced by the reign of fear - - any nation that perceives circumstances that could eventually lead to an imminent threat would be justified under this approach in taking military action against another nation. An unspoken part of this new doctrine appears to be that we claim this right for ourselves - - and only for ourselves. It is, in that sense, part of a broader strategy to replace ideas like deterrence and containment with what some in the administration "dominance."

This is because President Bush is presenting us with a proposition that contains within itself one of the most fateful decisions in our history: a decision to abandon what we have thought was America's mission in the world - - a world in which nations are guided by a common ethic codified in the form of international law - - if we want to survive.

AMERICA'S MISSION IN THE WORLD

We have faced such a choice once before, at the end of the second World War. At that moment, America's power in comparison to the rest of the world was if anything greater than it is now, and the temptation was clearly to use that power to assure ourselves that there would be no competitor and no threat to our security for the foreseeable future. The choice we made, however, was to become a co-founder of what we now think of as the post-war era, based on the concepts of collective security and defense, manifested first of all in the United Nations. Through all the dangerous years that followed, when we understood that the defense of freedom required the readiness to put the existence of the nation itself into the balance, we never abandoned our belief that what we were struggling to achieve was not bounded by our own physical security, but extended to the unmet hopes of humankind. The issue before us is whether we now face circumstances so dire and so novel that we must choose one objective over the other.

So it is reasonable to conclude that we face a problem that is severe, chronic, and likely to become worse over time.

But is a general doctrine of pre-emption necessary in order to deal with this problem? With respect to weapons of mass destruction, the answer is clearly not. The Clinton Administration launched a massive series of air strikes against Iraq for the state purpose of setting back his capacity to pursue weapons of mass destruction. There was no perceived need for new doctrine or new authorities to do so. The limiting factor was the state of our knowledge concerning the whereabouts of some assets, and a concern for limiting consequences to the civilian populace, which in some instances might well have suffered greatly.

Does Saddam Hussein present an imminent threat, and if he did would the United States be free to act without international permission? If he presents an imminent threat we would be free to act under generally accepted understandings of article 51 of the UN Charter which reserves for member states the right to act in self-defense.

If Saddam Hussein does not present an imminent threat, then is it justifiable for the Administration to be seeking by every means to precipitate a confrontation, to find a cause for war, and to attack? There is a case to be made that further delay only works to Saddam Hussein's advantage, and that the clock should be seen to have been running on the issue of compliance for a decade: therefore not needing to be reset again to the starting point. But to the extent that we have any concern for international support, whether for its political or material value, hurrying the process will be costly. Even those who now agree that Saddam Hussein must go, may divide deeply over the wisdom of presenting the United States as impatient for war.

At the same time, the concept of pre-emption is accessible to other countries. There are plenty of potential imitators: India/Pakistan; China/Taiwan; not to forget Israel/Iraq or Israel/Iran. Russia has already cited it in anticipation of a possible military push into Georgia, on grounds that this state has not done enough to block the operations of Chechen rebels. What this doctrine does is to destroy the goal of a world in which states consider themselves subject to law, particularly in the matter of standards for the use of violence against each other. That concept would be displaced by the notion that there is no law but the discretion of the President of the United States.

I believe that we can effectively defend ourselves abroad and at home without dimming our principles. Indeed, I believe that our success in defending ourselves depends precisely on not giving up what we stand for.

Did it take courage to express this opinion? I certainly do not think so. Kevin is absolutely wrong on this point.

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  • Display: Sort:
    Wha-a-a-? (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Lora on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:34:58 PM EST
    ...almost everyone agreed that he had an active WMD program.

    NOT true.

    Every "Serious" voice did (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:36:36 PM EST
    I think it is a fair statment of the debate.

    Parent
    Not Everyone - Scott Ritter (none / 0) (#37)
    by john horse on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:46:58 PM EST
    I can think of one notable critic who had doubts about the WMD threat, Scott Ritter.  

    According to Ritter Mr Ritter between 90 to 95 percent of WMDs had been accounted for by the UN Inspection program.  Regarding the WMD unaccounted for he pointed out that there was no evidence presented that they existed and for some type of WMD it was highly unlikely.  For example, biological weapons have a short shelf life before they turn to a nontoxic sludge.

    As a former weapons inspector Ritter's doubts about the WMDs were totally convincing to me.  
    Based on an interview I heard with Ritter on NPR prior to the invasion I believed that Saddam either did not have WMDs or if he had them he did not have enough to be a threat to anyone which is why Iraq's neighbors were not supporters of the invations.

    Parent

    ALMOST (none / 0) (#39)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:54:08 PM EST
    was the word used.

    Not NOT.

    Parent

    Scott Ritter was serious (4.66 / 3) (#41)
    by Lora on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 09:26:02 PM EST
    Scott Ritter was a serious voice raising doubts about the WMD's.  If he was perceived as not serious, you have the media to thank.  He was serious; he had his facts in order; he made a lot of sense; I believed him and I expect lots of other people did too.  If he was portrayed as a lone nutcase, it was because that's what the media does to someone like Scott Ritter.  The same media that totally ignored or dismissed the hundreds of thousands of protestors against the war in massive demonstrations in NY and Washington all those years ago.  Almost no one believed there were no WMD's, my foot!

    Parent
    Here tis (1.00 / 1) (#42)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 09:53:22 PM EST
    I am more aware than any UN official that Iraq has set up covert procurement funds to violate sanctions. This was true in 1997-1998, and I'm sure its true today

    Ritter in Time

    Parent

    If you are going to quote (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 07:01:02 AM EST
    Do so accurately and in context

    Here it is in full

    In 1998, you said Saddam had "not nearly disarmed." Now you say he doesn't have weapons of mass destruction (WMD). Why did you change your mind?
    I have never given Iraq a clean bill of health! Never! Never! I've said that no one has backed up any allegations that Iraq has reconstituted WMD capability with anything that remotely resembles substantive fact. To say that Saddam's doing it is in total disregard to the fact that if he gets caught he's a dead man and he knows it. Deterrence has been adequate in the absence of inspectors but this is not a situation that can succeed in the long term. In the long term you have to get inspectors back in.

    Iraq's borders are porous. Why couldn't Saddam have obtained the capacity to produce WMD since 1998 when the weapons inspectors left?
    I am more aware than any UN official that Iraq has set up covert procurement funds to violate sanctions. This was true in 1997-1998, and I'm sure its true today. Of course Iraq can do this. The question is, has someone found that what Iraq has done goes beyond simple sanctions violations? We have tremendous capabilities to detect any effort by Iraq to obtain prohibited capability. The fact that no one has shown that he has acquired that capability doesn't necessarily translate into incompetence on the part of the intelligence community. It may mean that he hasn't done anything.

    Clearly Ritter was skeptical.

    BTW, I gather he has an exercise video for his detractors...



    Parent

    Your complaint is spurious. (1.00 / 1) (#45)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 07:22:08 AM EST
    I provided a link. The reader can read it all.

    I guess if I ever quote something from the Bible, TL will have quite a bandwidth bill that month. In the meantime, here's what you left out.

    (Time)In 1998, you said Saddam had "not nearly disarmed." Now you say he doesn't have weapons of mass destruction (WMD). Why did you change your mind?

    (Ritter)I have never given Iraq a clean bill of health! Never! Never! I've said that no one has backed up any allegations that Iraq has reconstituted WMD capability with anything that remotely resembles substantive fact. To say that Saddam's doing it is in total disregard to the fact that if he gets caught he's a dead man and he knows it. Deterrence has been adequate in the absence of inspectors but this is not a situation that can succeed in the long term. In the long term you have to get inspectors back in.



    Parent
    RE-read the portion I quoted (5.00 / 3) (#58)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 12:57:02 PM EST
    Carefully this time.

    Your apology is accepted.



    Parent

    Molly is right. (4.66 / 3) (#49)
    by Lora on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 09:50:00 AM EST
    The full context shows clearly that Scott Ritter did not fall into the category of "almost everyone" who agreed that Saddam had WMD's.

    But Jim's little piece makes it look like Scott Ritter agreed with "almost everyone."

    Yes, Ritter was skeptical, of Saddam, and the assertions being made about him.  His voice was heard by many and agreed with by many; the media chose not to apprise us of this.

    Many of the Time interview questions and comments were slanted and somewhat belligerent: rather a hostile interview, I'd say:

    Who paid for the trip? Were any of your expenses paid for by the Iraqis?

    Some on the right call you the new Jane Fonda, and joke about what you'll call your exercise video.

    Are you being investigated for espionage?

    Did you write a report, at the time you were doing inspections in Votkinsk in the Soviet Union in 1988 that said the group your wife worked for was full of spies?

    Did you get any spying done on your trip?


    Parent
    Lora - If you can't be bothered to read (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 01:39:43 PM EST
    the article I linked to I hardly think you have a reason to complain.

    Parent
    I read it., now and years ago. (5.00 / 1) (#69)
    by Lora on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:18:34 PM EST
    Thanks, Jim.  I'm not complaining.

    Parent
    BTW - Re excercise video (1.00 / 0) (#46)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 07:26:42 AM EST
    If you are desperate to lose weight I would advise a strict diet and walking three miles a day.

    Hard on the blogging time but good for the heart.

    Parent

    Gore should have been president (5.00 / 1) (#36)
    by timber on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:42:16 PM EST
    If there were blogs then,  Gore would be president.  They would not have been allowed to steal the election.

    Sigh!

    You know (none / 0) (#38)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:52:55 PM EST
    There were blogs then but they weren't what they are now.

    Parent
    People keep forgetting (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by SeeEmDee on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 07:01:36 AM EST
    1. We had near total control of Iraqi airspace for over 10 years, watching everything with recon planes and satellites. Covertly building the kind of facility that that would be necessary to create NBC weapons would be difficult because:

    2. Specialized facilities using powerful air compressions systems are required. Just look at our own NBC facilities. It takes enormous quantities of stainless steel, ceramics, etc. to make a facility capable of producing chemical and biological weapons on an industrial scale. Such materials and their transportation to construction sites would have been evident to that recon. It would have set off all kinds of alarms amongst those who knew what such meant. But such didn't happen because:

    3. Under threat of US/NATO doctrine of retaliation ("Use chems and bugs on us and we'll up and the ante and nuke your arse!") Saddam didn't use BC weapons in Gulf War 1; he had to have known what kind of response those Navy carriers in the Gulf had waiting. So he got rid of them. If any existed, they were inert, forgotten left-overs gathering dust in a bunker.

    So that's why he didn't use the chems and bio stuff when he had the chance the first time, and why he didn't use them during the invasion. The first time, he had them but was afraid of using them; the second time he didn't have any to tempt him to try. One more datum conveniently missing from the Administration's justification for war.

    Oh, and BTW, I was Chemical Corps in The Army, 1982-88. An MOS 54E30. If I knew all this, then others had to know more. And almost certainly did. But the Administration wanted war, and it wasn't going to be dissuaded by a few technical facts...which it made plain to all the analysts at CIA and DIA who were telling Bush's Boyz things they didn't want to hear. Another case of 'fools rush in...'

    The pre emptive strike precedence (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Saul on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 08:07:14 AM EST
    Iraq will go down in history as the worst blunder ever made by any administration.  The main reason the majority of congress voted for the war was they were afraid of being looked at as unpartriotic and they feared that they would not be voted back in for another term.  The precedence of Bush's pre emptive strike in Iraq is that it is no longer just an action privy to the United States.    Since we did it and tried to justify it then any country can try to use the same procedure.  And what is the U.S going to say to that country that trys it.  "Hey you can't do that."  The reply will be "Why not you did it".  

    Saul (1.00 / 1) (#48)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 08:57:39 AM EST
    And what do you think the attacks on 9/11 were?


    Parent
    attacks by AQ ... (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 10:02:13 AM EST
    And what do you think the attacks on 9/11 were?.
    attacks by AQ which had nothing to do with iraq. iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, no WMDs and no ability to harm the US.

    Parent
    Saul has two alter egos (1.00 / 2) (#53)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:12:47 AM EST
    Wrong.

    If the 9/ll attacks had not happened, we would not have invaded Iraq. The two are joined at the hip.

    The two of you don't want to admit that because it removes a large part of the foundation of your criticism of Bush, the war in Iraq and the WOT in general.

    The point is often made by various people who are of the Left that the war in Iraq was over in four days.

    This may be true, but the counter revolution pushed by various factions started almost immediately. The anti-war Left who opposed our invasion to change regimes, could not, and has not been able to raise its head or open its mouth in opposition to the terrible acts of terror visited on the Iraq people by these various sects and groups who are often aided by Syria, Iran and SA nationals. Often with the approval of their home governments, or at worst, the government not acting in opposition.

    Instead, the Left can only speak of surrender and how quickly we can leave, while surely knowing in their heart of the blood shed this will let pour in Iraq.

    So if you are anti-war, I ask you.

    Where are the demonstrations in support of the lawfully elected Iraqi government?

    Where are condemnations of the terrorists?

    Where are the principles of the Left?

    Parent

    Where is OBL? (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:27:19 AM EST
    Have you checked your nose?? (1.00 / 1) (#84)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:37:40 PM EST
    Why? (5.00 / 2) (#59)
    by Molly Bloom on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 01:04:18 PM EST
    If the 9/ll attacks had not happened, we would not have invaded Iraq. The two are joined at the hip.

    Why are they joined at the hip? They weren't allies. Saddam was not involved in 9/11. Containment was working.  When is this bit of info going to penetrate your dense skull?

    Careful about asking about the principles of "the Left" we might start asking about the brains of "the Right" and their single issue national security voter enablers. Iraq is a complete disaster from the getgo and it is entirely the fault of the Right and their enablers.



    Parent

    Try to grasp this concept (1.00 / 1) (#78)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:07:29 PM EST
    It's fairly simple.

    If the 9/ll attacks had not happened,

    We can argue the fact that they had common interests, but there is no reason to even try and educate you on how that works.

    The attacks did happen, and after that Saddam was a target based on what we now know was bad intellience. Some of it, according to the Senate Intelligence Committee provided by the non-agent, Joe Wilson.

    It is called "cause and effect." Perhaps you have heard of it??

    Parent

    Where are condemnations of the terrorists? (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 01:15:17 PM EST
    You should have more coffee before you comment in the morning.

    There are condemnations of the Bush/Neocon regime here and all over world everyday, ppj.

    And you almost had me convinced you've been only pretending to be as challenged mentally as you as appear to be here everyday.

    Almost....

    Parent

    Yes, I understand you think Bush is a terrorist. (1.00 / 1) (#83)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:35:51 PM EST
    But I mean the real terrorists...


    Parent
    Yes I know (5.00 / 0) (#85)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:38:55 PM EST
    You mean Bush's puppeteers and supporters.

    Where is bin Ladin?

    Parent

    WMD: yet another lie (5.00 / 2) (#67)
    by tnthorpe on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 02:18:39 PM EST
    from the Bush Administration. They were so worried about WMD that they left major weapon caches unguarded or underguarded and of all the gov't operations only the Oil Ministry received enough protection to matter. Then, having kicked out UN inspectors before they could complete their job which would have shown the WMD claim up as the total nonsense it was, the Bush Administration failed to find a single WMD. What a surprise that was to me and the rest of the 10 million who marched against the war before it started--NOT! When pressed on this at one of his fawning press conferences, Rummy made the extraordinary claim that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Who needs facts when the c-in-c speaks to god on the phone? The quote below sums up why the Bush Administration is reason-proof: they are the ultimate postmodern reactionaries.

    "In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

    The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do." (from Ron Suskind: http://www.ronsuskind.com/articles/000106.html)
    And now those of us in the reality-based community are left to pick up the pieces that the Bush Administration has strewn about the planet.

    tnthorpe (1.00 / 1) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:33:28 PM EST
    The aide said that guys like me were

    And since the writer didn't give us a name, how do we know this happened??

    Parent

    Denial (5.00 / 1) (#87)
    by tnthorpe on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 02:27:54 AM EST
    is more than a river in Egypt. I suppose you could call or ask Ron Suskind, but that's your hangup not mine.

    Parent
    KD is totally off the mark (4.50 / 2) (#1)
    by Al on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:31:10 PM EST
    I maintained with confidence that the Weapons of Mass Destruction was a deception from the start: (1) The UN inspectors had scoured Iraq as effectively as anyone could, and found nothing; and (2) there was zero positive evidence that these things existed.

    Detection techniques are far more sophisticated than most people realize. Even I know, for example, that it was possible to discover the Soviet Union's biological weapons program in the 1990's and describe it in detail. When Rumsfeld uttered his celebrated "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", he got it exactly wrong. When you have such sophisticated tools at your disposal, absence of evidence  evidence of absence.

    What is more, professional intelligence gatherers had to be aware of this. This is what was so tremendous about the WMD story: It was a deliberate lie, propagated by the government, with the complicity of the CIA. And I insist, you could tell this at the time. Had there been a single piece of positive evidence of the WMD, the government would have wasted no time in showing it to everybody, like the satellite photographs of Soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba. The fact that Colin Powell went to the UN Security Council and knowingly presented a fabricated sham, at a time when most people wanted to believe that there had to be a good reason for invading Iraq, tells you that the government had nothing, and they had to be very much aware of this.

    Rumsfeld was a most brilliant con-man. He deflected attention from the truth by actually waving it in front of everybody. Absence of evidence

    is
    evidence of absence in this case. He knew it, Powell knew it, and Bush knew it. And I knew it too, and so did many others who were desperately posting about this on the web at the time.

    The most extraordinary thing about this is that these criminals are actually going to get away with it. Nobody is going to accuse them. And this fact is a devastating blow to democracy in America.

    Let me make another unwelcome observation. It is a mistake to think that this will never happen again, because Bush will be gone shortly. On the contrary, Bush and his accomplices have proved that you can lead the United States into a war of aggression based on a lie, and totally get away with it. And when Bush steps down, all the mechanisms that enabled them to do this will still be in place. Because everyone with the means to accuse them and convict them has remained silent.

    You miss the point (5.00 / 2) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:34:20 PM EST
    Even if Saddam had WMD, the Iraq Debacle was a criminally insane exercise.

    Gore and others explained why.

    Parent

    The point would be even stronger w/the (none / 0) (#4)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:40:49 PM EST
    identification of "this guy" and the date of the speech.

    Parent
    Noooo (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:52:45 PM EST
    the this guy us intentional. Read the piece. Then read who said it.

    And then consider how wrong Kevin Drum is.

    I chose to do it this way for a reason.

    I dsiagree with your critique.

    Parent

    4345 words in story (none / 0) (#14)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:26:39 PM EST
    The whole speech (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:32:54 PM EST
    is presented.

    Parent
    I know. Everything but the name of the speaker (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:35:37 PM EST
    and the date of the speech.

    Parent
    Links (none / 0) (#23)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:37:30 PM EST
    are there and the idea is that you read it and then see who said it.

    Yoiu may disagree with the rhetorical tactic i used here but what it isis pretty clear.

    Parent

    Both are right in the URL (none / 0) (#24)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:53:09 PM EST
    Just put your cursor over it and read, for those too lazy to click.

    Parent
    This is a silly discussion. (none / 0) (#25)
    by oculus on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 02:03:00 PM EST
    When initially reading the post, I faithfully "clicked" and realized the entire speech was in the post, then noted the name of the speaker, and especially the date of the speech, which is all that is missing from the post.  Why send the reader to a needless link?  Isn't my time valuable?  Off to read the Sunday paper.

    Parent
    That took you what? (none / 0) (#26)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 02:17:49 PM EST
    30 seconds?

    Parent
    Oculus (none / 0) (#27)
    by Alien Abductee on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 02:26:37 PM EST
    It was just a general statement meant to to be helpful. Not meant to impugn your work ethic. :)

    Parent
    I agree of course (none / 0) (#5)
    by Al on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:44:22 PM EST
    but I think you miss the point: There will not be any consequences for the guilty parties, and therefore it can happen again. The fact that this was not a mistake but a deliberate lie is crucial. It is not enough to say "this is a debacle, now let's see how we can get out of it". It is true, of course. But it's not enough. The fact that you can lead the United States into a war of aggression based on carefully and deliberately crafted deception is now a proven concept. Think about it: You can convince people that a non-existent nuclear arsenal or biological weapons arsenal exists, and is ready to launch, and it doesn't have to be true! This is now proven. Do you think there will never be any more George Bushes or Dick Cheneys or Donald Rumsfelds?

    Parent
    Both are off (1.00 / 1) (#18)
    by koshembos on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:34:48 PM EST
    There is an assumption that if you were for the war, it makes you, at best, a convicted felon. True, some people had the insight or vision to oppose the war from the very beginning. Others, e.g. RBC's Kleiman, have supported the war, some strongly and some weakly, and have changed their mind in 2003 or 2004.

    Obama, for instance, with no Senate pressure has made the right call. I find it almost non consequential.

    We all make mistakes. Those that read Bush correctly have shown astuteness, but will make other mistakes some other times. Obama makes at least one mistake per week and his approach to issues is ad hoc lacking major principles.

    In 2007 the whole debate and discussion sounds very insignificant and tiny. We do have a strong anti-war majority; how do we stop the continued slaughter and how are we going to treat Bush once he is gone, e.g. Hague. These are much more important questions.

    Oh please (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:35:45 PM EST
    no one thinks supporting the war was LITERALLY criminal.

    Get real.

    Parent

    Interesting question. (none / 0) (#79)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:09:23 PM EST
    I guess it would depend on what someone did in support of it.

    Parent
    Drum writes (1.00 / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 07:06:21 PM EST
    This meant that war skeptics had to go way out on a limb: if they opposed the war, and it subsequently turned out that Saddam had an advanced WMD program, their credibility would have been completely shot

    There was a much higher cost to be considered than the creditability of some Left wing bloggers.

    If Saddam had WMD's, and if we had given Saddam enough time to get back in the business, the Left would be howling for his head because he had failed to protect the country and we suddenly had 100,000 or so dead.

    Life is a gamble and quite unfair. But it is best to err on the side of safety when all of your intelligence, and the world's intelligence, think a dictator and brutal killer with a grudge against your country has the weapons.

    As Bush said:

    Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option


    Fallacy (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Al on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:28:44 PM EST
    If Saddam had WMD's

    He didn't, and it was entirely possible to know this. I knew it, and more importantly, so did Bush.


    Parent
    Al - Get a dictionary (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:39:51 PM EST
    First of all, you did not know that. You may have "believed" that, but you did not "know" it.

    Secondly, you have no "proof" that Bush knew that. Again you may believe that, but you do not know that.

    Parent

    they did lie (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 10:00:29 AM EST
    rice knew the aluminum tubes weren't suitable for nuclear centrifuge, but she said it anyway.
    rumsfeld said he knew where the wmds were, that was a lie.
    bush said saddam kicked the inspectors out, but he KNEW he had done it. etc etc etc.

    When you say something you know to be untrue, that is the definition of a lie.

    Parent

    Provide some links. (1.00 / 1) (#64)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 01:42:35 PM EST
    Claims don't count.

    Parent
    Yes (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:25:33 PM EST
    Sailor demonstrates he doesn't understand (1.00 / 1) (#76)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 10:58:04 PM EST
    time...

    Clinton gave him the time... etc when he had a chance to shut him down.

    Wait.. That sounds like OBL.

    Parent

    and if we had some ham (4.00 / 1) (#31)
    by Sailor on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 07:25:46 PM EST
    ppj once again illustrates why supporting terrorists should not be national policy

    Who cares what bush lied about, what rumsfeld lied about, what rice lied about, what powell admits he lied about?[/snark]

    Their credibility has been proven wrong over and over.

    Millions of us around the world did every legal thing in our power to stop this war.

    ppj is an admitted terrorist supporter, just like bush, rumsfeld and bush's dad.

    Isn't it time that America stops supporting terrorists?

    Parent

    sailor loves strawmen (1.00 / 1) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:36:50 PM EST
    And he continues to raise this issue.

    "The enemy of my enemy" is my friend is an ancient truism.

    I supported OBL when he was attacking the Soviets in Afghanistan, bleeding them white and causing political problems in Moscow.

    I supported Saddam when he was attacking Iran after they had invaded our Embassy and had declared they would put the ME under Shari law

    Because I believe it is better to have someone else, when possible, do our fighting for us. Why? Because with out them doing that our soldiers are the ones killed.

    Now, since Sailor seems to think this wrong, then it appears that he is not concerned with our soldiers being killed. What a shame.

    How can he square that with his claim of supporting the troops?

    Sailor, I have asked time and again the same question. Why do you use the word "lie" so frequently?


    Parent

    ppj in a nutshell (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:26:27 AM EST
    I supported OBL [...]
    I supported Saddam[...]
    I believe it is better to have someone else, when possible, do our fighting for us.
    Yes, we know all those things about you.

    Parent
    sailor loves starwmen (1.00 / 1) (#62)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 01:37:12 PM EST
    And you prefer to sit at home and let our troops fight rather than use distasteful allies.

    We know this of you.

    Parent

    wrong as always (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:11:57 PM EST
    I prefer me and the troops to sit at home while folks like you wet your beds.

    Iraq had nothing to do with AQ or 9/11.

    Where is OBL, the terrorist you supported?

    Parent

    Sailor astounds us with his beliefs. (1.00 / 1) (#74)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 10:54:23 PM EST
    So you believe that if 9/11 had not happened, Congress would have voted authorization to invade Iraq??

    That's a giggle.

    OBL? I thought you knew. He rode the missle that hit the Pentagon..

    Parent

    Have your meds adjusted.... (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 10:58:49 PM EST
    You've gone over the edge. Again.

    Parent
    kirk (1.00 / 1) (#65)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 01:43:39 PM EST
    Hmmm next thing I know you'll be condemning Jimmy Carter and William Jefferson Clinton.

    Parent
    Typo (none / 0) (#3)
    by Al on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:36:09 PM EST
    Sorry about the funny
    is
    , which should have been an is. For some reason I couldn't get rid of it.

    The problem, BTD (none / 0) (#6)
    by Dadler on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:45:12 PM EST
    Is that the entire establishment that got us into this DID NOT HAVE THE SLIGHTEST IDEA about what made Hussein tick.  We were entirely ignorant about his psychology.  Now, one can go read tons and tons of material on the psychology of people like Saddam, but that would've meant an actual informed decision.  Which no one in the establisment wanted or cared about.  Even you, when you write about how bad Hussein wanted this or that weapon, are making the same mistake of completely ignoring the difficult psychological work that MUST go into making a decision about whether to attack someone like that.  I mean, Jesus H., have we forgotten that this idiot ASKED us for permission to invade Iraq?

    We were fools, taken by a guy who was doing nothing more than scamming us all along.

    We were fools.  And inexcusably so.  We had all the tools in the world to understand that guy, the tools of a free society, to use his own psychology against him, etc.  Instead, we took the low road and destroyed ourselves in the process.

    It's your Ho Chi Minh rap all over (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by Dadler on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:48:51 PM EST
    As when on another thread a few weeks ago you said you just couldn't believe Ho Chi Minh was anything other than a Mao or Pol Pot.  But Mao and Pol Pot did not copy from our Declaration of Independence, did not look to us first for help, did not write us letters begging for humane assistance instead of war.  We made the same inexcusably ignorant and malevolent mistakes with Minh.  

    Hussein was our butcher there.  And we pretended he wasn't, that he was some monster we had no influence on.

    Parent

    Actually (none / 0) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:51:27 PM EST
    It has nothing to do with that previous posty, where, quite frankly, I thought you made no sense whatsoever.

    But no need to rehash that battle here as it is irrelevant.

    Parent

    The first post should've read... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Dadler on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:50:03 PM EST
    ...asked us for permission to invade KUWAIT.

    I happily accept the proofreading dipsh*t award of the day.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#9)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:50:22 PM EST
    the issue I raise in this post is Kevin Drum isd full of it in his description of what an anlayst should have feared prior to the war.

    Parent
    Gore is quite right (none / 0) (#12)
    by Al on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 12:58:37 PM EST
    Sorry to keep posting about this, but this whole topic really touches a nerve with me. From your quote of Gore:
    Nevertheless, Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.
    This is absolutely correct. Gore is not accusing Saddam of actually having WMD, but of the will to acquire them if possible. He concludes that the goal must be to eliminate his access to them. It is ironic that thanks to the White House, we all know of at least one CIA agent who was actively working in that area: Valerie Plame.

    Well (none / 0) (#13)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:02:02 PM EST
    He expresses a belief that Saddam has chemical and biological weapons.

    My poit remians, but apparently lost in the shuffle, That Drum;s argument that it was risky to oppose the drive for war because everyone thought Saddam had WMD is absolutely positively wrong.

    Parent

    This not correct, IMO (none / 0) (#28)
    by Al on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 03:44:12 PM EST
    He does not express a belief that Saddam actually did have chemical and biological weapons. He expresses a belief that Saddam wanted access to such weapons, and he invites the formation of an international coalition to prevent him from getting access to them. Gore says:
    Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.
    This is not hair-splitting. Gore is very explicitly against the notion of pre-emptive attack without proof.

    Parent
    Your opinion is incorrect (none / 0) (#29)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 05:53:17 PM EST
    . . . the resulting chaos could easily pose a far greater danger to the United States than we presently face from Saddam. We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.


    Parent
    I didn't see that (none / 0) (#32)
    by Al on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:26:29 PM EST
    In that case Gore was wrong. He knew no such thing and he shouldn't have said so.

    Parent
    Indeed (5.00 / 2) (#40)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 08:55:14 PM EST
    But Gore and many of us who thought that still OPPOSED the IRaq Debacle.

    Parent
    Such a good point (none / 0) (#73)
    by tnthorpe on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 06:08:57 PM EST
    What so troubling here is that Gore takes much of the same evidence that Bush does but arrives at so much more rational and practical a decision than the cowboy in chief. The 2000 loss will haunt future generations because since then we've been in the grip of  the most impractical, ideologically driven administration in history. Just watch the 1994 Cheney tell us exactly how Iraq would be a quagmire and compare it to the rhetoric from the Plan for a New American Century: it's a transit from relative sobriety to American exceptionalism run madly amok. So, even though I think Gore's assertion about such weapons was wrong, I still admire him for being able to put the WMD claim in a much more reasonable context. Damn that Florida  butterfly ballot.....

    Parent
    Hans Blix speaking to the BBC in 2004 (none / 0) (#15)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:31:06 PM EST
    TS: "If you were telling Tony Blair the intelligence was wrong, in essence, his intelligence from MI6 was wrong and that he didn't change his assessment do you still think he acted in good faith?"

    HB: "I think what he should have done would have been to ask for more inspections. But the Americans had a time limit, some time in March."

    TS: "In the original intelligence that was presented to the Prime Minister it contained caveats and questions marks. When it was presented to Parliament and the public, those question marks and caveats had gone. Is that still acting in good faith?"

    HB: "No I think they should have preserved the question marks."

    TS: "It's not in good faith?"

    HB: "I think it was a spin that was not acceptable. They put exclamation marks where there had been question marks and I think that is hyping, a spin, that leads the public to the wrong conclusions."



    Link (none / 0) (#16)
    by andgarden on Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 01:31:30 PM EST
    Bush knew. (none / 0) (#57)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 12:04:42 PM EST
    And he lied in the January 2003 SOTU:
    ...April 29, it was revealed that Ex-CIA Chief George Tenet Says He Warned Hadley That Bush Was Lying when he said "the British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa," in a January 28, 2003 State of the Union address. It seems to me highly unlikely that Bush's National Security Advisor Hadley would have not warned Bush, and that Bush gave the 2003 SOTU speech without knowing he was lying, if only because if he wasn't lying then Bush and Hadley must be seen as dangerously incompetent
    Reasons For Waxman Investigation Of Iraq Invasion Justifications Were Known More Than A Year Ago

    That's not what Wilson told the CIA. (1.00 / 1) (#61)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 01:28:40 PM EST
    The CIA's DO gave the former ambassador's information a grade of "good,"...The reports officer said that a "good" grade was merited because the information responded to at least some of the outstanding questions in the Intelligence Community, but did not provide substantial new information. He said he judged that the most important fact in the report was that the Nigerien officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Nigerien Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium, because this provided some confirmation of foreign government service reporting.

    Senate Intelligence Report

    And it wasn't what Tenet said, either.

    Now let us look at the language used by Tenet.

    More on why we recommend removing the sentence about [Saddam's] procuring uranium oxide from Africa," Tenet wrote in the book, apparently quoting from a memo sent to the White House. "Three points: (1) The evidence is weak. One of the two mines cited by the source as the location of the uranium oxide is flooded. The other mine cited by the source is under the control of French authorities; (2) the procurement is not particularly significant to Iraq's nuclear ambitions...And (3) we have shared points one and two with Congress, telling them the Africa story is overblown and telling them this was one of two issues where we differed with the British."

    The word procuring does not mean "attempt to purchase." It means:

    to get possession of : obtain by particular care and effort

    So it appears to me that Tenet was saying that no yellow cake had been purchased, and that the amount was not important to Saddam's program and that the mines in which it was supposed to were either flooded or under control of the French. Plus, the evidence is weak.

    Okay, fine. He hadn't purchased.

    But the claim was "attempt."

    Parent

    Fine. "attempts" then (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 02:13:43 PM EST
    As usual you try to divert. I said nothing about Wilson.

    And as usual, you either are unable to, or refuse to, read:

    George Tenet told former Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley in October 2002 that allegations about Iraq's attempt to acquire yellowcake uranium from Niger should immediately be removed from a speech President Bush was to give in Cincinnati. Tenet told Hadley that the intelligence was unreliable.

    "Steve, take it out," the ex-CIA director writes in a new book, "At the Center of the Storm," about a conversation he had with Hadley on October 5, 2002, about Iraq's alleged interest in uranium. As deputy National Security Adviser, Hadley was also in charge of the clearance process for speeches given by White House officials. "The facts, I told him, were too much in doubt."



    Parent
    edger is confused ... (1.00 / 1) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:28:29 PM EST
    You can't talk about Bush's famous 16 words without Joe Wilson's part.

    That would be like talking about Demo Reid without mentioning the war is lost.

    Anyway, you appear confused. First you offer this as the gospel:

    More on why we recommend removing the sentence about [Saddam's] procuring uranium oxide from Africa," Tenet wrote in the book, apparently quoting from a memo sent to the White House.

    Now you say:

    George Tenet told former Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley in October 2002 that allegations about Iraq's attempt to acquire yellowcake uranium from Niger should immediately be removed from a speech President Bush was to give in Cincinnati. Tenet told Hadley that the intelligence was unreliable.

    I mean good grief. Which one is the gospel?? Do you have another version you also want me to read?
    I mean one minute Tenet is saying that Bush shouldn't talk about Iraq porcuring
    yellow cake, and the next he is telling him to take it out because the facts are too much in dispute.

    Since the IAEA report was still 6 months away and the Brits were still saying it happened and the ex-Premier of Niger saying it happened ... what was Tenet basing this on??

    BTW - Your source for a big chunk of this is Jason Leopold....

    Parent

    Too drunk to either read or comprehend now? (5.00 / 0) (#86)
    by Edger on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:47:07 PM EST
    "Steve, take it out," the ex-CIA director writes in a new book, "At the Center of the Storm," about a conversation he had with Hadley on October 5, 2002, about Iraq's alleged interest in uranium


    Parent
    even bush admitted ... (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Sailor on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:43:10 PM EST
    ... it shouldn't have been included.
    case closed.

    Parent
    sailor loves strawmen (1.00 / 1) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 11:30:01 PM EST
    If that were the case, all would be well.

    But the fact is that the Left wouldn't let it alone.

    You get what you want sometimes.

    But you may not want what you get.

    Parent