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Michael Vick to Plead Guilty

Michael Vick's lawyers announced today he will plead guilty. No word yet on the sentence, but the charge is a felony, conspiracy, and a prison sentence is possible.

"After consulting with his family over the weekend," Michael Vick asks that I announce today that he has reached an agreement with federal prosecutors regarding the charges pending against him," lead defense attorney Billy Martin said in a statement.

"Mr. Vick has agreed to enter a plea of guilty to those charges and to accept full responsibility for his action and the mistakes he has made. Michael wishes to apologize again to everyone who has been hurt by this matter," Martin's statement said.

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    Unfortunately (5.00 / 1) (#54)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:15:12 PM EST
      that's often the result in animal abuse cases.

      Time for a sad recollection.

      Way back when I was a new lawyer, one of my first cases came about when I just happened to be in the courtroom when a woman was brought in for an initial on animal abuse charges. Being new, I was  appointed  on the spot to represent her.

      My client, "Emma,"  was actually an animal lover-- of irrational proportions.  She was what is known as a "collector," which I would decribe as an obsessive-compulsive whose disorder manifests itself with the accumulation of animals far beyond the person's capacity to provide proper care.

      Emma was dirt poor and living on disability but had about 10 horses, 35 dogs, God knows how many cats,  and a few other more unusual animals. The conditions were  appalling. The animals were extremely malnourished, in need of veterinary care and kept on a property nowhere near large enough that was beyond filthy. Several dead animals that were in various stages of decomposition and had been "cannibalized"  were found as well. That said, Emma took better care of the animals than she did herself. She was in her late 50s but looked every bit of 75 and couldn't have weighed more than 85 pounds.

      Anyway, it turns out the animals had been  seized in a televised raid on her property and the poor animals shown on the news provoking outrage and anger. It became my first "high profile" case with extensive media coverage. The news kept at it bringing  on vets, stable owners, upset neighbors, other lawyers from big firms eager to curry favor by proclaiming their willingness to work pro bono to ensure justice and highlight the need for tougher animal cruelty laws and enforcement, blah,blah,blah.(To his credit, the local prosecutor kept a noticeably low profile and resisted the opportunity to exploit the situation.)

       Emma, despite her poor care, loved those animals more than life itself and was nearly sent over the edge when almost all of the dogs were euthanized (the horses were "adopted"  except, as I recall, one that died during transport to a local stable). "Disturbed" dogs simply have no place willing to take them. The shelters can't afford the space and money to keep them indefinitely and no one is going to "adopt" them. Is it crueler to keep them alive and suffering due to "too much love" or to kill them out of appreciation of cold, hard reality?  

     Emma wanted to defend the case and pleaded rather eloquently to me, in her own way, that it was wrong for the people who killed the dogs to call her cruel because she took in sick animals no one else wanted and gave them love. I actually thought we might have a chance with that theory but the costs to Emma if we lost were potentially quite high.  The one moral certainty is that Emma would NEVER say she had done wrong. She'd had gone to the chair if necessary, let alone jail, before doing anything other than telling anyone who would listen that she loved those animals and they loved her.

     Eventually, I was able to convince her that the best course was to seek a diversionary disposition.  get the State to hold the charges in abeyance and ultimately dismiss them because I didn't want to see her go to jail and likely lose her "homeplace" and I just couldn't guarantee that would not happen if we fought it out.  Then, the prosecutor  (who was feeling public pressure) tried to insist upon a condition that she agree not to have any animals for 5 years.

      There was no way Emma would accept that. Only because (a) it would have been an expensive trial with the state footing not only my bill but the bill for experts on both animal care and my client's psychological state in addition to all the normal costs; (b) it was possible (albeit a dicey proposition from my perspective) she might be acquitted; (c) a very sweet and diplomatic volunteer with the local humane society who agreed to act as a "helper" (read monitor-- and financial benefactor), did we ultimately reach an agreement where she could have one horse and three dogs; and (d) a brave and honorable prosecutor (yes, they do exist), did we reach an agreement where she was allowed to enter a diversionary program without entry of any plea or judgment in exhange for a consent decree outlining the conditions under which she would be allowed to have a few animals.

      Afterwards, for several years Emma would write me long, rambling letters (she didn't have a phone)  describing her pets and how she longed for the day she could have more again-- along with her views on anything that occurred to her. Occasionally, I visited her and always brought some feed that I claimed the court was ordering me to deliver. I always felt kind of bad because I didn't really like visiting her because she would talk my ear off, the place always smelled really bad, and there was just no way to prevent a visit from turning into hours without hurting her feelings.  Then, it occurred to me that there had been a longer than usual time since the last letter and I called the sweet old lady who was helping and sure enough Emma had gotten sick and died.

      Obviously, sometimes I still think about Emma  and although I'm a practical man and still think I did the best thing for her, sometimes I wish she'd had her day in court and a verdict that she wasn't guilty of anything but loving her animals.  

    I'd bet, with a tearful public apology, and (none / 0) (#1)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 02:13:54 PM EST
    PETA  reps by his side (after he donates a ton of dough to them) and some time, there'd be enough softening of public sentiment such that he could get back in the game.

    Maybe admit/claim an alc/drug problem and a quick trip to rehab? Usually seems to work...

    If he got away from the Falcons, he might even have a better career.

    That said, if he can't make it happen, I imagine he should have enough assets to live the rest of his life very comfortably indeed...

    Yes (none / 0) (#2)
    by glanton on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 02:25:13 PM EST
    You pretty much cover the possibilities.

    Maybe one really good thing has come from this terrible mess: a heightened awareness of and public sensitization to dog fighting.  

    Such things need to be quashed wherever they are found.  

    Parent

    I wouldn't worry about the public.... (none / 0) (#4)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 02:56:53 PM EST
    outside of the PETA extremists of course. If he can help the local team win, the local fans will welcome him with open arms.  I'd take him on my beloved Jets tomorrow.

    The only issue with him getting back in the game is how long the suspension will be.  The day that the suspension is up, the GM's will be lining up to sign him.


    Parent

    Add.... (none / 0) (#5)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 02:59:17 PM EST
    assuming he's not in prison when the suspension is up.

    Parent
    I hope they are lining up for him - (none / 0) (#7)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:10:26 PM EST
    and that he has a long and vaulted career.

    And that he truly has a Paris Hilton "I gotta turn my life around." moment.

    She did have one of those, didn't she?

    Parent

    So I'm told...lol (none / 0) (#9)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:20:43 PM EST
    I think the odds are better on Vick turning it around.  

    Parent
    I don't know about that (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by glanton on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:38:45 PM EST
    In all seriousness, irresponsibility and even callous disregard (Paris) are things that can be overcome and grown out of.

    On my best days I allow myself to hope that malignancy of the soul is also possible to overcome.  But it's a much taller order.

    Parent

    I was thinking along the lines of.... (none / 0) (#13)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:44:46 PM EST
    economics.  Vick knows poverty, and I'd bet he knows if he doesn't leave this disgusting dog-fighting stuff behind him he will know poverty again.  Remember, NFL contracts ain't guaranteed, his endorsement deals have been pulled, I don't think he's saved enough cash to last the rest of his life.

    Paris, otoh, has no economic incentive to stay out of trouble...she'll be sitting fat till the day she dies no matter what she does.

    I agree Vick's crimes are worse than Paris', but I think he's got more incentive to straighten up and fly right since his livelyhood is at stake.


    Parent

    Economics...gotcha (none / 0) (#14)
    by glanton on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:47:14 PM EST
    Good point, kdog.  

    Parent
    Really? (none / 0) (#15)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 04:31:26 PM EST
    and I'd bet he knows if he doesn't leave this disgusting dog-fighting stuff behind him he will know poverty again.
    Do you really think he doesn't have enough net assets to live well for the rest of his days? And/or that he has no income-earning opportunities besides the NFL?

    If Vick sees poverty in the future, it's because he chooses not to do what's necessary to not see it, imo.

    Parent

    I have no idea.... (none / 0) (#16)
    by kdog on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 04:52:49 PM EST
    just guessing.  I'm guessing he thought he'd be getting 6 figure paychecks for the next ten years straight and had lots of time to save.  He wouldn't be the first millionaire athlete to go bust...thats for sure.

    Poverty is probably a stretch....but between him and Paris Hilton, he's got the greater chance to go bust one day.  Vick is just rich, Paris is wealthy.  If he wants to stay rich, he better stay out of the dog fighting racket.  Paris could keep driving drunk for the rest of her life and never go broke.

    Parent

    If the NFL doesn't take him back, (none / 0) (#19)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 05:07:26 PM EST
    he's got plenty of other opportunities. Canadian league? European League? Coaching at some level, writing books, whatever. Plenty of time and opportunity not to live in poverty for him.

    At the very least, if he did do a huge mea culpa, I'll bet PETA would gladly hire him to tour the country giving animal talks and stuff.

    Hell, might not be such a bad idea for him to do the PETA thing anyway, even if the NFL does take him back...

    Parent

    Sarcasmo (none / 0) (#17)
    by glanton on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 04:56:58 PM EST
    I agree it's unlikely he will actually ever see Poverty again.  Though it is entirely foreseeable that Vick will be hereafter relegated to what we would consider middle-class existence.  You know, stuff like "only" owning one house, worrying about medical expenses in case of an emergency, etc.  No longer to be surrounded by a cadre of hangers-on.  Etc.

    At the same time, k-dog's larger point, we can all agree with.  Vick has more incentive to put on a good public face than Paris Hilton or others who ooze wealth.

    Of course, assuming Vick is guilty (and if it comes out that he is not guilty I will profusely apologize for everything I have said about him on this site and on others), he's got what I consider to be far larger problems than the terrible prospect of jail time, followed by stints shopping at Target, or having his child apply for student loans.  

    The man clearly has, as Melville hauntingly wrote of Ahab, a "canker in his soul."  Whether he can heal this, or get past it in any meaningful way, will be the great challenge of his life.  

    Parent

    So as not to butcher Melville (none / 0) (#18)
    by glanton on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 05:03:03 PM EST
    The actual quote comes from the climactic moment just before they sight the whale, Ahab's is given one last chance for redemption.  And for a moment it seems he will take it:

    "But the lovely aromas in that enchanted air did at last dispel, for a moment, the cankerous thing in his soul."

    Parent

    Yes, I agree, (none / 0) (#20)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 05:10:35 PM EST
    he does have more incentive than Paris. Let's hope he heals that canker.

    Parent
    I wouldn't count on him ever playing again (none / 0) (#22)
    by scribe on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 05:49:23 PM EST
    Saturday I heard an interview with Falcons owner Arthur Blank who, to be sure, has had to deal with this and a lot more out of Vick and made do because Vick put butts in seats, excitement in games and points on the board.  The disgust in Blank's voice said more than his words ever could - and his words were pretty straightforward in making clear (while not saying so explicitly) that Vick would not be back in a Falcons jersey.  Ever.

    I cannot see the new commissioner letting Vick back in the league pour encourager les autres - this is the fifth of five major incidents since last years' playoffs -
    (1) Tank Johnson (Bears) going to jail on a gun charge,
    (2) a series of Bengals players getting busted on DWIs, assaults, etc.,
    (3) Adam "Pacman" Jones:
    (a) "making it rain" in a Vegas strip club then trying to get the money back leading to the bouncer getting shot and paralyzed,
    (b) getting arrested relative to another strip club incident,
    (c) signing to participate in a pro wrestling spectacle (the paralyzed bouncer was a former wrestler and some of the wrestlers were reported to be planning to prove that "wrestling is real") which led to the Titans, Pacman's team, having to get an injunction (to preserve their investment in his bonuses or something, I guess) against his participating;
    (d) dealing with a car forfeiture relative to dope in the car;
    (4) the New Years' Eve fatal shooting of a Broncos' player, recently profiled on HBO's Real Sports;
    (5) Michael Vick.

    In the year or so prior, there was
    (1) more Pacman Jones;
    (2) the two Carolina Panthers cheerleaders busted for (a) having sex in a public ladies' room and then (b) beating on another patron who objected;
    (3) the Vikings' post-training camp rookies' initiation boat trip, which involved alleged hookers, their apparatus and use thereof, and so on;
    (4) more Michael Vick, with airport security finding the double-bottomed water bottle holding alleged pot, a lawsuit about improper conduct and use of a false name, and his brother Marcus and alleged gunplay;
    (5) Ricky whatshisname, who jumped on a multi-year contract with Miami to spend full time studying the effects of pot on his mind and hang out with some shaman or other somewhere, then was involved with litigation over whether he would have to pay back his bonus.

    I'm probably forgetting a few, like Eagles' coach Reid's two sons getting busted in the same week in separate incidents for charges starting with DWI and going up from there.

    We almost certainly have seen the last of Michael Vick on a football field.  

    The CFL - well - one has a hard time getting into Canada with a conviction on one's record, especially for something like DWI, and moreso for work.  NFL Europe is no longer an option - the league shut it down a couple months ago, right after the championship game.  

    Parent

    Well, (none / 0) (#3)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 02:25:18 PM EST
       it might be worth running up the flagpole, but how many celebrities claim their drinking/druggong caused them to fight and abuse animals over a long period of time? That line works better when the behavior at issue is more impulsive type stuff such as whacking your wife/girlfriend or fighting cops than when it's a pattern of calculated behavior.

    Makes no sense, does it? (none / 0) (#6)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:03:37 PM EST
    Betcha it would help though...

    Parent
    It's going to be hard to make the addict claim... (none / 0) (#8)
    by Slado on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:14:42 PM EST
    unless he's saying he was addicted to gambling.

    He appears to have been the mastermind behind the whole operation.  Raising his own dogs, financing the operation and providing the financial backing for the betting.

    I can't figure out why the gov't giving him a break because it appears that he was the big fish they are after, maybe they figure he can name more names.

    Sad case indeed.

    Parent

    vick sounds like a big player (none / 0) (#12)
    by Deconstructionist on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:41:26 PM EST
      but he's not unlikely to have intelligence (and possibly even documentation) concerning people as big and bigger. He wasn't fighting his own dogs against each other for money and he's wasn't  staging at least some, if not or all or most,  of the events at which he fought his dogs.

     He's the big dog (sorry) at Bad Newz Kennels but he might have quite a bit about people at other kennels and or promoters, bookmakers, breeders etc.

    Parent

    Just can't lose any sleep over this. Too (none / 0) (#10)
    by oculus on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 03:35:37 PM EST
    many issues to worry about; Iraq War; despicable AG, etc.

    Legal questions in the Vick case. (none / 0) (#21)
    by Aaron on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 05:37:56 PM EST
    I was wondering how much time Vick would face for the federal conspiracy charge, and how much time he would face if he had been indicted for racketeering, in other words the maximum amount of prison time he would have faced if he had gone to trial?

    Perhaps one of the legal scholars can enlighten me.

    It's really not possible (none / 0) (#26)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 07:49:59 AM EST
     to estimate with any precision  what real world exposure he might have faced under a superseding indictment when there isn't one.  Possibly, at the end of the case if there is ever full disclosure of all the relevant facts it might be a bit more clear, but that likely will not happen (another one of the reasons why pleas can be advisable). With that huge caveat, i provide:

      The default guideline for RICO is 2E1.1 which sets a base offense level of 19 or the offense level applicable to the underlying activity if that is higher. 19 would be higher than the gambling or dogfighting BOL, but often in these types of cases you also get money laundering and/or tax evasion offenses as well. Without knowing the amount of money the government could prove was involved it's not really possible to estimate those.

       Again, there are more complexities, that we will ignore,  but generally it would take more than $200,000 in laundered funds  for the BOL for money laundering to exceed 19,  and more than $400,000 in tax loss for tax evasion to exceed 19 (and it takes a lot of income to cause a $400,000- tax loss -- I'm not an accountant or tax lawyer but it would be  well over a million dollars).

      So for illustrative purposes only we will use a BOL of 19. He'd probably get 4 levels added for aggravated role as leader/organizer of a criminal activity that involved more than 5 or is otherwise extensive. If he testified and was convicted he'd almost certainly get 2 more for bstruction.

      Under that scenario, his total offense level might be either 23 or 25. 23 and crim history I has a sentencing range of 46-57 months. 25 and I would be 57-71 months.

      There would also remain the question of whether the judge would find that an upward departure or a variance sentence above the uidelines was warranted but those are not common occurences (of course this is far from a typical case in many respects.)

       

    Parent

    thanks D (none / 0) (#37)
    by Aaron on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 05:39:46 PM EST
    :)

    Parent
    Bush pardon, will not be forthcoming (none / 0) (#23)
    by Aaron on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 05:52:23 PM EST
    Since this is a federal crime, George W. Bush could grant him a full pardon, and Vick could be back in a Falcons uniform in time for next week's game.

    Unfortunately for Michael and Atlanta fans, for him to receive serious consideration he would have to be White, play for Texas, and have direct knowledge of the president's wanton violation of constitutional authority.


    I was wondering (none / 0) (#60)
    by Slado on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:53:15 PM EST
    if it was possible to work a Bush slam into this case that obviously has nothing to do with him but somehow Aaron found a way.

    Good work.

    Parent

    Well none of us knows for sure (none / 0) (#24)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 06:23:00 PM EST
    what the future holds, but there is this guess:
    Will Vick play football again? Somebody will take a chance, but it might be in the Arena Football League. The CFL might be a problem. Because CFL general managers protested about the Ricky Williams signing two years ago in Toronto, that league is reluctant to take on players who have been convicted. If convicted, it might be hard for Vick to secure a visa to play in Canada. Vick would be unstoppable in the Arena League. If he played in it for a season or two and on his best behavior, he could give fans a chance to forget even though they might not forgive.

    What is Vick's best public relations strategy? Vick would need to fall on the mercy of the courts and seek forgiveness from fans. He must be apologetic and remorseful. He must do public service announcements to stop people from fighting dogs. If he embraced dogfighting in the past, he must be the leader against dogfighting in the future. Time does create opportunities for forgiveness. To set a different tone for his reputation, Vick must demonstrate that he is remorseful in interviews and commercials. Along with a good attorney, he needs a good public relations expert.

    John Clayton is a senior writer for ESPN.com.



    ...and this opinion: (none / 0) (#25)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Mon Aug 20, 2007 at 06:31:34 PM EST
    From SI:
    Before he would let our conversation end, the veteran personnel evaluator made one more point, and said it was something he thought a lot of people within NFL circles have felt as Vick's long, sordid dogfighting saga has played out the past four months.

    "I don't know what's going to happen to Michael Vick, and I don't care,'' he said, slowly and with emphasis. "The guy has embarrassed the NFL and embarrassed the game that a lot of us care about greatly. He's not worth any more time and energy and attention. It's his problem now.''



    He's (none / 0) (#27)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 10:36:17 AM EST
    a vicious, vicious man. He has serious psychological problems. He shoud be seeing a prison shrink daily for the next couple years and never be allowed on a football field to entertain us with his marginal talents ever again. What is the matter with you people? I'm no big fan of PETA, but seriously, what the hell is wrong with you people? Do you need a virtual reenactment of what HE did to these defenseless creatures? His crimes have been filtered and scrubbed so that his adoring fans have little idea what grotesque brutality this man personally inflicted on these animals. He is a danger to other people also. People like this can easily brutalize other people with this type of psychotic behavior. He has no respect for life. People like this do not just stop at animals. If he's allowed to walk with a fine and an apology, what will happen to the first poor schmuck who confronts him in public on his crimes of animal mutilation and killing? How would Vick be treated here if he was not a celebrity? I heard Ray Buchanon on ESPN DEFENDING this man and I can only imagine his agent desperately calling him to tell him to STFU!!! I gotta go. It stinks of dead dogs around here, but few seem to notice the stench.

    There are few emotional releases (none / 0) (#32)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 12:56:40 PM EST
    better than a high-and-mighty, egotistical, self-righteous, holier-than-thou, lambasting rant.

    You go nino.

    Parent

    I must admint I'm with Che on this one... (none / 0) (#61)
    by Slado on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:56:31 PM EST
    For not other reason then he knew that it was wrong and was the mastermind behind his own personal dog fighting empire.

    He wasn't some country bumpkin who went to a few matches and got his own dog.

    He staged the fights, bankrolled the gambling had dozens of his own dogs that he trained etc...

    Other then football you could obviously say that dogfighting was the most improtant thing in his life and once he was done with the NFL it would be THE most important thing if it wasn't already.

    I fell bad that it is such a waste of talent and potential but I don't feel sorry for the person that commited multiple felonies.

    Parent

    And FYI (none / 0) (#28)
    by Che's Lounge on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 10:38:04 AM EST
    HE'S GUILTY, counselors. No forced confessions.

    But, but.. (none / 0) (#30)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 11:15:54 AM EST
    he's a star athelete..and a celebrity to boot..
    We desperatly need these people; they complete us.

    Seriously, hidden-in-plain-sight dog fighting has been going on for years, particularly in the south and the people with the power to do something about it have chosen -- quite consciously -- to look the other way, probobly because they were afraid of appearing like "activists", "agitaters" etc and alienating the crypto-Klansman base.

    I love these self righteous sports writer types waxing indignant and acting as if this is the first they've ever heard of dogfighting. They remind me of all the bridge inspectors that have come out of the woodwork here in NY in the last few weeks.

    Parent

    Where (none / 0) (#29)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 11:02:31 AM EST
     is anyone here suggesting he is not guilty or that his behavior is not  extremely repugnant?

      I see speculation about the legal and professional consequences of his conviction,  some efforts to speculate why someone would do such reprehensible things, whether he can rehabilitate himself,  and  whether or not doing such  reprehensible things  should or will keep from playing in the NFL.

     

    I like Roman Polanski movies.... (none / 0) (#31)
    by kdog on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 11:42:28 AM EST
    they say he's a rapist.  I love the writing of Charles Bukowski....he was a drunkard degenerate gambler who raised his hand to women at times in his life.  I like watching Michael Vick play football, and he's admitted to obscene animal cruelty.  Doesn't mean I like watching him play football any less.

    Is it that hard to seperate the flawed man from his amazing works?  I appreciate the work Vick does on the football field, it is awe-inspiring to watch him play, and I selfishly hope to see it again.  I hope the NFL shows Vick some mercy, and don't just throw him out like a fighting dog when he gets out of jail.

    wow (none / 0) (#34)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 01:28:53 PM EST
      Michael Vick fighting dogs becomes opportunity to denigrate guys who drive pickups??????????

      Deep breath. Exhale. focus. Try again.

    A denizen of the shallows (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by jondee on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 01:36:59 PM EST
    wouldnt notice the conection between advertising campaigns that appeal to hormones rather than reason and guys that feel the need to have the biggest, baddest dog.

    But, take a breath. Exhale and try again.

    Parent

    well we can't all (none / 0) (#36)
    by Deconstructionist on Tue Aug 21, 2007 at 03:47:14 PM EST
     be as deep as you. Now that you've  enlightened me  with that extremely novel idea I'm going to boycott Dodge for contributing to every conceivable problem even tangentially related to any arguable example of guys trying to prove their manhood.

      After reading your well-reasoned and scientifically sound post, I was tempted to call for the abolition of all advertising of anything because, let's face it, it's all intended to push some button on someone, but that might sound stupid.

    Parent

    I cant imagine (none / 0) (#38)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 12:54:15 PM EST
    you boycotting anything except a movement that threatened the status quo too drastically, Decon.

    It's a Hoddesian world "red in tooth and claw", and the sooner we except it, the better off we'll all be.

    Parent

    Hobbesian (none / 0) (#39)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 12:54:59 PM EST
    Uh, (none / 0) (#40)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 12:56:30 PM EST
    that would be "Hobbesian" not "Hoddesian" and "accept" not "except." Even with those corrections, your post is gibberish.

    Parent
    Translation: Comprehensible, (none / 0) (#49)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:54:47 PM EST
    but with implications dangerously threatening to my hypertrophied sphincters.

    Parent
    In a bit of irony..... (none / 0) (#41)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 02:41:39 PM EST
    50 dogs seized from Vick's property will likely end up getting euthanized.  LINK

    I don't know...it may be the most humane thing for the dogs, we can't un-breed them, no one outside the dogfighting game would want them...but I still find it ironic.

    Yes (none / 0) (#42)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 02:55:51 PM EST
    That is crazy ironic. Killing is fine as long as you have the right employer.  

    Parent
    Imagining myself as a pit bull.... (none / 0) (#43)
    by kdog on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:09:39 PM EST
    I'd rather a fighting chance in the ring and risk a gruesome death than just laying down and being euthanized.

    Parent
    There's a big contorversy in LA (none / 0) (#44)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:15:40 PM EST
    over a proposed Pit Bull (re)Training Academy
    The council postponed approval of the Pit Bull Training Academy at a Friday hearing in Van Nuys until issues of liability and public safety could be sorted out. But city officials said they felt confident that the program would be approved in a couple of weeks.

    [snip]

    The program would be run by a nonprofit group that often hires parolees newly out of prison to train the sometimes dangerous and aggressive pit bulls. The city would pay the group to train the scores of pit bulls abandoned in shelters and to work with city staff to improve handling of the breed.

    What would be really ironic is if Vick got hired to work there after his prison time...

    Parent
    Starbury (none / 0) (#45)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:32:20 PM EST
    has defended Vick.

    "I think it's tough," Marbury said, according to Albany TV station Capital News 9. "I think, you know, we don't say anything about people who shoot deer or shoot other animals. You know, from what I hear, dogfighting is a sport. It's just behind closed doors."

    He's got a point. I have hunted in the past and I am considering taking up bow hunting this fall. The only thing holding me back is time. I want to make sure when I shoot, the animal does not suffer. I shot a deer when I was sixteen years old and the animal died an excruciating death due to my amateur marksmanship. I don't want a repeat of that.

    But, considering the number of hunters and sportsmen/sportswomen out there, there are bound to be numerous animals every hunting season that will not be killed humanely. There are no guarantees that all hunters will make clean kills. I suppose, though, the argument is that in dogfighting, there are no attempts to reduce the suffering of the losing dogs and, in fact, the more suffering the better (at least, in entertainment value).

    Anyway, I thought it interesting that Marbury defended Vick. I have been gaining an appreciation of Marbury as he has matured. He seems to be taking stances outside of sports that are controversial and courageous, something many athletes are reluctant to do.

    Parent

    I don't know, Peaches (none / 0) (#46)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:49:51 PM EST
    Can you link me to some examples of Marbury being courageous or controversial in a way not directly related to his ego?  I'd love to see it.

    Disclaimer: I was a huge Marbury fan when he was just a skinny freshman. Nowawdays all I can think of when his name comes up is the whole Larry Brown muckup in which he said screw this system, I'm gona be "Starbury."  Say what ya want about Brownie, but his carrer does indeed represent a "heck of a job" (couldn't resist).  
    A bunch of winning seasons, a national title, an NBA ring to back it all up.  Who the bejeebus is Stephan Marbury and what has he ever done?

    In short, Marbury seems to me, like most guys in the NBA, all style little substance to me.  That being said, maybe he's the perfect advocate for Vick.

    Outside of punishment if guilty, what Vick needs right now is not justifactory rhetoric, or lamentations that we may never again be the benefeciaries of his unquestionably awesome football talent.  

    What he needs is to get his sh$t together and get past whatever malignancy would have to plague someone who does such things.  

    Parent

    Here (none / 0) (#47)
    by Peaches on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:53:26 PM EST
    Starbury and shoes

    Definitely, not ego-centric. Though, I agree with you he did trun me away for awhile.

    Parent

    Well (none / 0) (#51)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:00:50 PM EST
    That oughtta shut me up for a while.  On Marbury at least.

    Thanks for the info, that was a good and refreshing thing to see.  

    Parent

    Big props (none / 0) (#70)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 06:15:38 PM EST
    to Marbury for that.

    Parent
    It's Cultural (none / 0) (#48)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:53:35 PM EST
    Dog fighting (Tosa) has been going on for a long time in Japan for instance. We just love our dogs here in a different way.

    And from what I have read the Tosa fights in Japan are far from bloodless.

    Parent

    Too relativistic, too postmodern for my blood (none / 0) (#50)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 03:58:34 PM EST
    I say our attitudes towards dogs compared to Japan's is an area in which the Japanese should take notice.  Same with Burmese cockfighting, etc.

    Parent
    Well (none / 0) (#52)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:09:31 PM EST
    I am a dog lover, big time, but I also do not believe that Americian's have a monopoly on doing the right thing. Many things we do 'naturally' are horrifying to other cultures, our response is usually that they are backwards.

    Imagine if evey culture was the same. That would be a corporate dream.  

    Parent

    Agree and disagree (none / 0) (#55)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:23:47 PM EST
    As you probably know, I would hardly fall into the camp of those who think American always does the right thing.  Or even usually. There is a lot not to be proud of, a lot we need to change, and a lot e could well learn from other cultures.

    But there ARE many things about our culture to be proud of, squeaky.  Many things. That we have long past gotten to the point where we taboo pitting animals (not just dogs) against one other to fight to the death for the amusement of humans is one of those things of which we should be proud.

    Parent

    Hard To Tell (none / 0) (#58)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:47:10 PM EST
    What makes us so disconected from killing other people here in America? It is a big industry here, and we are one of the biggest exporters of killing technology. Many things are connected in not so obvious ways. Not to say that if we had legal dogfighting we would more inclined to value human life.

    Whatever it is that feeds our bloodlust, the fact is, we are a super cruel country. Given that, I am not so comfortable at passing judgment on other cultures.  

    Parent

    Painting with jumbo brushes (none / 0) (#67)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 06:01:21 PM EST
    Your commentary about American culture paints with a totalizing brush.  

    Then after finishing the broadstroke you stand back and say:

    Given that, I am not so comfortable at passing judgment on other cultures.

    Well, then, we're different in this respect.  I I am comfortable judging these violent practices.  Just as I am comfortable, completely comfortable, saying that we have a superior form of civilization to those subsribing to Sharia law.  Etc.  


    Parent

    Japan has (none / 0) (#59)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:49:49 PM EST
    one of the most overrated cultures in history. Obsessive/compulsive, racist, with a hyper-militaristic legacy that's nothing to aspire to.  

    Parent
    I Dunno About Overrated (none / 0) (#62)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:56:40 PM EST
    They just are who they are. But many there are at least as racist as we are. The only difference is that they see white people as inferior. Hard to imagine that here.

    Parent
    Not just (none / 0) (#64)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 05:21:12 PM EST
    "white people", but aboriginals, the Chinese, the Koreans.. Of course, obviously all Japanse dont think that way, but it's been a strong prevailing current there historically.

    That the Japanse have been fighting dogs for centuries -- or eating blowfish and tiger penis soup -- is, to me,just another glaring example of the recalcitrance of tribal nuerosis.

    As the cannibal mother said to her boy: "But son..we cannibals have always eaten people.."

    Parent

    White People (none / 0) (#69)
    by squeaky on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 06:12:46 PM EST
    Was my chosen example to press a point. Many whites here hate all those others too.

    Obviously you are not fond of the japanese. I get it.

    Parent

    Identify some behavior or attitude... (none / 0) (#57)
    by Deconstructionist on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:37:35 PM EST
      that can't be described as "cultural?"

      To suggest that anything should be tolerated if it is part of a "culture" is simply to say everything must be tolerated. Lynching blacks   was "cultural" in the same sense as dogfighting, and if that were the subject  I doubt Marbury would stand still for the argument that he just needs to accept that different cultures have different mores all defensible simply because they are rooted in the culture.

      Do YOU embrace that argument or do you now see how absurd it is?

     

    Parent

    Not exactly unheard (none / 0) (#53)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:10:28 PM EST
    of for Jocks to defend each other, even when they're in nigh to indefensible positions. Recall all the guys interviewed after the Brown/Goldman murders who "knew" O.J was innocent.

    With dog fighting we're talking about an abberrant subculture that too few of "the boys" have been willing to go out on a limb (step outside the group), and publicly question.

    Parent

    "He's got a point." (none / 0) (#56)
    by sarcastic unnamed one on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 04:33:50 PM EST
    Not to me he doesn't.

    The intent of hunting is death, the quicker and more humane the better. Followed by sustaining human life by eating the game.

    The purpose of dogfighting is "enjoying" the spectacle of two dogs literally tearing each other apart, and, as apparently dogs that "give up" w/o dying are often then brutally killed by owners (like Vick), it follows that the "best" dogfights are the ones where one of the dogs is torn apart so viciously that it dies in the ring.

    A scaled-down version of the fight-to-the-death gladiator "spectacles" of old.

    Oh, and dogfighting's a felony, hunting ostensibly, is not.

    Marbury's got his head up his a$$ on this one.

    (OT, but you could even make the argument that essentially every animal in nature eventually dies a horrific death by another animal and is eaten, sometimes while still alive, and that a clean shot through the heart and a quick death is actually a much more humane way to go.)

    Parent

    Bravo (none / 0) (#63)
    by Slado on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 05:03:13 PM EST
    Once again the lefty sense of moral equivalence is too powerful to be overcome by common sense.

    Why can't peopel draw a line on behavior?

    I would imagine Starbary is simply using hunting as an excuse to justify his true feeling that star atheletes shouldn't go to jail no matter what they do.

    Parent

    Give it a rest, Rush (none / 0) (#65)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 05:25:15 PM EST
    one "Leftie" isnt always a sokesperson for all Lefties.

    Parent
    Are you actually (none / 0) (#66)
    by glanton on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 05:50:54 PM EST
    Reading this thread?

    //not a snark

    Parent

    Giving Marbury the benefit of the doubt.... (none / 0) (#71)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 09:39:18 AM EST
    I think he's talking about hunting for sport only, not for food.

    If that's what he meant he has a point.  The difference between slaughtering a dog who won't fight for you and slaughtering a deer just to hang its head on your wall is miniscule.  Both acts are sick, but the law only defines one as criminal.

    Parent

    Some hunting (none / 0) (#72)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 09:59:50 AM EST
      IS pretty close to being as barbaric if you ask me. I have no quarrel with ethical hunters who follow all the rules and who pass on an animal unless they know their ability allows them to make a clean kill shot. Yahoos who blast away at anything that moves and inflict suffering on animals (and not infrequently other hunters)are perhaps better than vick only in terms of mens rea. they are merely grossly negligently  or recklessly causing suffering. It seems Vick purposefully caused suffering. A fine line perhaps, but a line.

      I also have big problems with these "game ranches" where people pay money to be taken to fenced-in animals and shoot them. That's not "hunting" if you ask me, just killing, and even if the kill is clean I don't see it as defensible.

      If you put on the boots and go stalk the animals in their natural habitat and then ethically pursue and kill the animal, it's a lot different than blasting away at some poor creature that penned in and fattened up so some lazy ass can be driven up on ATV to kill it and then go brag to his buddies.

    Parent

    I concur.... (none / 0) (#73)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 10:09:13 AM EST
    those game ranches are pretty sick if you ask me.  

    That's not hunting, that's an animal execution.

    Parent

    Add.... (none / 0) (#74)
    by kdog on Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 10:11:05 AM EST
    If the meat gets eaten at a game ranch, I can live with that, it only reaches the sick level if the animal gets thrown away or stuffed.

    Parent
    I'm not a taxidermy expert (none / 0) (#75)
    by Deconstructionist on Fri Aug 24, 2007 at 10:34:04 AM EST
     but I'm pretty sure an animal can be "stuffed" and the meat still eaten. I do know that with most, it's only the head or sometimes even just the antlers that the hunters want for trophies.

      I also know that in many areas they have chartity programs where hunters can donate the meat to help feed needy people.

      Finally, an argument can be made that deer need to be hunted because we have practically eliminated all the other natural predators and hunting helps thin the herds so the numbers more closely approximate the "carrying capacity" of the land and reduce the incidence of starvation.

      In many areas too, the deer numbers in populated areas have become too high. When I was a kid, it was not all that common to see  deer out in the country. Today, I see them frequently-- in my yard.

    Parent

    One things for sure: (none / 0) (#68)
    by jondee on Thu Aug 23, 2007 at 06:07:58 PM EST
    Lord of the Flies isnt just a story about a bunch of adolescents on an island.